Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

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Topic Author
RetiredCSProf
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Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm

Nearly 3 years ago, my 20-year old Lexus was totaled with a minor fender-bender against a post in a parking garage. Having only a couple weeks on a rental car before needing to commit, I chose to lease a BMW plug-in hybrid. The lease runs out in a few months, so now I'm car shopping again.

I share the car with my son, who is in college. One of my compromises is that I need to be able to see out the front window without sitting on a large stack of pillows (I'm barely 5 feet) while my son needs to be able to adjust the seat so his head is not hitting the roof of the car (he's over 6 feet). Another compromise is that our garage is short (19 ft long) -- my old Lexus, with a length of 190 inches, barely fit into the garage. And then there's that bump at the top of our sloping driveway -- ground clearance needs to be at least 5.5 inches to avoid scraping the bottom of the car on entry.

I've enjoyed driving a plug-in hybrid. Last year, we spent under $200 on fossil fuel and drove the BMW about 5K miles. Admittedly, I'm spending the equivalent of about $2.50 "per gallon" for charging the car in my garage, but gas in my area has been close to $4 per gallon.

It seems that there are several more PHEV models and all-electric on the horizon, but I may need to buy or lease a new car before some of the newer models arrive.

I'm open to suggestions on car models to consider.

mhalley
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by mhalley » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm

Why not just buy the beemer you are leasing? I saw a cr article that recommended the bmwx5, Subaru Forester and Toyota Highlander for talll plus short, but not sure if they come in hybrid models.
Last edited by mhalley on Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Trism
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Trism » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:47 pm

mhalley wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm
Why not just buy the beemer you are leasing?
BMW residuals are inflated to keep the lease payments low.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where buying a BMW at lease end makes financial sense.

It would be wiser to buy a different, similar car for market value instead.

runner3081
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by runner3081 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:48 pm

mhalley wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm
Why not just buy the beemer you are leasing?
Beamer = motorcycle
Bimmer = car

:)

mhalley
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by mhalley » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:49 pm

Ok boomer. :happy
( note this is in jest as I’m a boomer)

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RootSki
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RootSki » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:58 pm

I have the 2019 Volvo XC60 T8 (PHEV). I bought it because of its power/torque, not for fuel efficiency. It’s a fun car for me to drive. I do several 200 mile trips a month and 22,000 miles a year. For my driving habits it works out that I mostly use fuel on the highways and battery below 40mph. When running local errands I’m almost always on electric. I like hybrids a lot but I suspect in 7-8 years my next car will be full electric.

Puretaxableindexer
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Puretaxableindexer » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:21 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm
Nearly 3 years ago, my 20-year old Lexus was totaled with a minor fender-bender against a post in a parking garage. Having only a couple weeks on a rental car before needing to commit, I chose to lease a BMW plug-in hybrid. The lease runs out in a few months, so now I'm car shopping again.

I share the car with my son, who is in college. One of my compromises is that I need to be able to see out the front window without sitting on a large stack of pillows (I'm barely 5 feet) while my son needs to be able to adjust the seat so his head is not hitting the roof of the car (he's over 6 feet). Another compromise is that our garage is short (19 ft long) -- my old Lexus, with a length of 190 inches, barely fit into the garage. And then there's that bump at the top of our sloping driveway -- ground clearance needs to be at least 5.5 inches to avoid scraping the bottom of the car on entry.

I've enjoyed driving a plug-in hybrid. Last year, we spent under $200 on fossil fuel and drove the BMW about 5K miles. Admittedly, I'm spending the equivalent of about $2.50 "per gallon" for charging the car in my garage, but gas in my area has been close to $4 per gallon.

It seems that there are several more PHEV models and all-electric on the horizon, but I may need to buy or lease a new car before some of the newer models arrive.

I'm open to suggestions on car models to consider.
Toyota is coming out with a new RAV4 PHEV or the Prius Plug-in.

softwaregeek
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by softwaregeek » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:57 pm

I'm partial to electric vehicles. But the technology is advancing so fast that I hesitate to buy one.

Were I in the market, I would seriously think about leasing one, although I've never been pro-leasing with gasoline fueled cars.

BMW has some very nice i3 models with a tiny gas "range extender" that are quite reasonable used. They depreciate rapidly, but they look like a good used value to me.

shunkman
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by shunkman » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:55 am

Trism wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:47 pm
mhalley wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm
Why not just buy the beemer you are leasing?
BMW residuals are inflated to keep the lease payments low.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where buying a BMW at lease end makes financial sense.

It would be wiser to buy a different, similar car for market value instead.
BMW = Bring Money Withya

Trism
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Trism » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:59 am

shunkman wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:55 am
Trism wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:47 pm
mhalley wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm
Why not just buy the beemer you are leasing?
BMW residuals are inflated to keep the lease payments low.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where buying a BMW at lease end makes financial sense.

It would be wiser to buy a different, similar car for market value instead.
BMW = Bring Money Withya
I Brought Money Withme when I leased mine.

I absolutely love it, and I leased it for 30-40% less than what a comparable Mercedes would have cost (thanks to the inflated BMW residual and subvented BMWFS finance rate).

fasteddie911
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by fasteddie911 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:42 am

We're eyeing the rav4 prime due out this Summer supposedly. What are your other needs or desires? Luxury, cargo, longevity, cost, driving range, environmental friendliness? We drive slightly more than you do but feel the PHEV is adequate. Could also consider buying something used to bide your time.

samta09
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by samta09 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:26 am

What is your budget? In my opinion, Tesla seem to be the best choice for electric cars and you can buy one for about $40k, before state incentives, if any. This price point is very comparable to a BMW. It has ample charging infrastructures around the country if you want to take car for longer road trips. Other electric cars currently can't do that due to limited fast charging stations. If you only drive 50 miles or less a day, you can just charge it via a standard 120V outlet, no need to invest in higher voltage receptacle.

Tesla cars seem to wear out tires faster than others due to high and instant torque, which can be fun but at the expense of faster tire wear. There's no maintenance other than tire rotation very 6k-7k miles.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by jabberwockOG » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:41 am

Never thought I'd think like this but at this time leasing a hybrid makes more sense than buying because the technology in these types of car is rapidly changing and improving every year (like PCs did back in the 90s).

I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.

samta09
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by samta09 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am

I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
[/quote]

You can, in a Tesla.

stoptothink
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am

samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
[/quote]

...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.

samta09
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by samta09 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
[/quote]

True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:30 am

Subaru Crosstrek.

8.7 inches of ground clearance (puts a lot of pickups to shame), costs 1/2 of a Model 3 costs, "real" all wheel drive, availability of a proper 6 speed manual transmission. We have one and are quite happy with it. It gets 30-ish mpg. But gas near me is cheap and ways to reduce that cost are easy. Sticker price this morning was $2.49.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

stoptothink
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:36 am

samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.
[/quote]

We road trip very differently. I don't enjoy it, so once we get going there are no stops unless it is absolutely necessary. We (family of 4) make the nearly 600 mile trek to California at least twice a year and there are no stops; yup, our VW jetta can make it without a stop for gas.

beastykato
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by beastykato » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:41 am

Ditto. Stopping during road trips is a huge hassle and a partial charge isn't really an answer. When you refuel you don't get a partial gas tank. That just means you have to stop even sooner the next time.

Anyone who thinks electric cars are ready for mainstream are fooling themselves. The numbers speak for themselves no one is buying them. Hybrids are still the way to go if you want any kind of range.

I like electric vehicles don't get me wrong, but like others have said the range is a huge deal, the charging time is not adequate for long distance driving and no one has time to stop an sit for an hour+ to get a full charge. Vacations to cabins or other remote areas also are a problem if you're outdoorsy at all. Electric vehicles are also extremely poor at towing.

Electric cars are the perfect.... Second car. I'd totally buy one for grocery getting and driving back and forth to work, but then it kinda ruins the financial benefit because I have another car to care for and insure.

delamer
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by delamer » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:57 am

How about leasing another BMW hybrid?

As someone else noted, I’d be hesitant to buy your current vehicle due to concerns about getting stuck with obsolete technology.

Topic Author
RetiredCSProf
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:08 pm

OP here with update on car shopping. I had just started looking at cars when the stay-at-home orders went into effect. Some dealerships will allow me to test drive a car; others not so.

I'll respond to the options suggested:
1. Keep / return BMW 330E: As several posters mentioned, I have a high residual on the lease. My total mileage is under 13K, but it may be difficult to sell the car if I decide to keep it another 1-3 years, due to evolving technology and slow sales of PHEV cars.
2. Another BMW: I drove the 330i (ICE) -- it's a maybe; the next 330e (2021 PHEV model) is not available yet
3. Tesla Model 3: I'm considering this, but have had no chance to test-drive or even sit in the car. I would need to place an order ($100 deposit) and wait ten weeks for the car, and then return the car in seven days if it doesn't work out -- sort of like ordering a pair of shoes online, and then having to go barefoot if they don't work out.
4. Toyota RAV4: The RAV4 Prime (PHEV) is not yet available, but I may consider the RAV4 hybrid
5. Toyota Prius Prime: not enough ground clearance -- will scrape on top of my driveway
6. Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid (PHEV): I'm waiting for a salesperson to return my calls
7. Volvo XC60 (PHEV): on my "maybe" list -- have not looked at it yet

Other cars on my "to-be-considered" list
1. Chevy Bolt -- but if I go all electric, would likely prefer the Tesla
2. Nissan Leaf -- all electric
3. Hyundai Ioniq PHEV
4. Kia Niro or Soul
5. Ford Escape hybrid (not a PHEV)
6. Honda CR-V hybrid
7. VW Jetta GLI (ICE)
8. Subaru Forester (ICE)

02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:04 am

I don't think the technology on PHEVs is volving all that quickly - it's a transitional technology and the industry is moving toward full EVs, much as I like my Chevy Volt. The first-gen Volt was a brilliant demonstration of the advantages of PHEVs, and nothing much has changed in the decade since. So I don't know that I'd get rid of the BMW because of that fear, although I'd worry about repair costs on such a complex vehicle, and a German one at that.

Have you considered the Model Y? It's basically a taller 3. It's not much higher so entry shouldn't be an issue, but the higher seating position may improve visibility for you. It will remain pricey though ($53K and up) until they bring out the lower-priced, lower-range versions.

If you like the BMW for its driving feel, I think you may have a hard time getting anything near the same driving enjoyment from anything on that list except the Tesla. The Crosstrek, LEAF, Ioniq, Kona, etc. are all going to be a significant step down.

palanzo
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by palanzo » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:18 am

samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.
[/quote]

That is assuming there is a Supercharger in the direction you are going. That's not necessarily the case.

02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:30 am

palanzo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:18 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.
That is assuming there is a Supercharger in the direction you are going. That's not necessarily the case.
[/quote]

I don't have a Tesla but these objections are a nonissue for many people, who do not drive long-distance, or have another car that is ICE or PHEV, or can rent a car (why put the high-mileage trips on my own car?). Everything is a compromise, and by compromising on range you get some advantages with EVs that I'd never give up (quietness, smoothness, low cost of operation, low cost of maintenance, reliability of powertrain, lower climate impact and zero tailpipe emissions, etc.).

inbox788
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by inbox788 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:39 am

Lexus IS or if you need SUV an NX. I wouldn’t bother with hybrid or electric as a requirement if you’re driving so few miles. Fuel efficiency isn’t as significant and you’re nowhere near 100k in a decade. Choose the vehicle based on performance and features. Memory seats and mirrors are nice with multiple drivers. Anyone include a power memory rear view mirror yet?

cheesepep
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by cheesepep » Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:45 am

Previous car is a Honda CR-V. Current car is Tesla Model 3 performance. I much prefer sedans even without considering the ICE/battery question. Where I live, charging is free so I never have issues. I tend to eat at hotels with destination chargers.

EagleI
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by EagleI » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:00 am

You may want to consider extending your lease. I have a VW Passat coming off lease and there is no way to actually car shop In my area due to the Coronavirus restrictions. VW is offering to extend the lease up to 6 months at a reduced rate. Of course this is to their advantage, as their dealers can’t take receipt of my car nor really sell it again right now. It’s possible BMW is doing something similar.

Laker1
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Laker1 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 am

No brainer....Prius plug in...Toyota makes the best car in this class period.

bikesandbeers
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by bikesandbeers » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:00 am

With low oil prices, your are going to see a reduced fuel savings, but If you already have charging at your house and reasonable elecitrty rates, I'd at least go with a PHEV- Environmental benefits, nice to drive, and I think it will hold its value better when fuel prices go back up.
Although technology is improving I don't see any major breakthrough in the next few years.
Tesla is a safe bet. if you want to stick with luxury maybe look at Volvo.
I see Used BMW i3s for not much more than a leaf or a bolt.

The Rav4 PHEV will be a great choice when its available, or can't go wrong with the Prius Prime. The Subaru Crosstrek hybrid isn't very impressive as a PHEV, but isn't a bad car if you like the style.package

palanzo
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by palanzo » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:13 pm

02nz wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:30 am
palanzo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:18 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.
That is assuming there is a Supercharger in the direction you are going. That's not necessarily the case.
I don't have a Tesla but these objections are a nonissue for many people, who do not drive long-distance, or have another car that is ICE or PHEV, or can rent a car (why put the high-mileage trips on my own car?). Everything is a compromise, and by compromising on range you get some advantages with EVs that I'd never give up (quietness, smoothness, low cost of operation, low cost of maintenance, reliability of powertrain, lower climate impact and zero tailpipe emissions, etc.).
[/quote]

If you read the earlier posts the person was asking about driving 700 miles and someone replied you can stop for a rest break and charge. So we are talking about a different scenario.

02nz
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:33 pm

palanzo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:13 pm
02nz wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:30 am
palanzo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:18 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am


You can, in a Tesla.
...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.
That is assuming there is a Supercharger in the direction you are going. That's not necessarily the case.
I don't have a Tesla but these objections are a nonissue for many people, who do not drive long-distance, or have another car that is ICE or PHEV, or can rent a car (why put the high-mileage trips on my own car?). Everything is a compromise, and by compromising on range you get some advantages with EVs that I'd never give up (quietness, smoothness, low cost of operation, low cost of maintenance, reliability of powertrain, lower climate impact and zero tailpipe emissions, etc.).
If you read the earlier posts the person was asking about driving 700 miles and someone replied you can stop for a rest break and charge. So we are talking about a different scenario.
[/quote]

Yes I read them, my point was that a car that meets 95% of one's needs and then renting for the other 5% can make sense. Now if most of your trips are 700 miles long, that's different, but that's not very many people.

palanzo
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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by palanzo » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:45 pm

02nz wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:33 pm
palanzo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:13 pm
02nz wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:30 am
palanzo wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:18 am
samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:29 am


...if you don't mind stopping twice, for 75min a pop. That's an absolute dealbreaker for me. Personally, as someone who likely won't purchase another ICE vehicle, I'd rent a car if I was looking to drive more than 300 miles in one shot.
True, if plan on driving straight with no stop for breaks and only stop for refuel. But for most drivers, I would think we need to stop every 2-3 hours for restroom breaks. If so, you don't need to wait more than 15 minutes to get up the charge level back up for another 3-4 hours driving time. During the waiting time, you can take your time for restrooms and/or snack. Not a deal breaker. We did a 400 miles road trip and got to the destination in similar time as if driving ICE.
That is assuming there is a Supercharger in the direction you are going. That's not necessarily the case.
I don't have a Tesla but these objections are a nonissue for many people, who do not drive long-distance, or have another car that is ICE or PHEV, or can rent a car (why put the high-mileage trips on my own car?). Everything is a compromise, and by compromising on range you get some advantages with EVs that I'd never give up (quietness, smoothness, low cost of operation, low cost of maintenance, reliability of powertrain, lower climate impact and zero tailpipe emissions, etc.).
If you read the earlier posts the person was asking about driving 700 miles and someone replied you can stop for a rest break and charge. So we are talking about a different scenario.
Yes I read them, my point was that a car that meets 95% of one's needs and then renting for the other 5% can make sense. Now if most of your trips are 700 miles long, that's different, but that's not very many people.
[/quote]

You need to reply to samta09. Not me.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:03 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:39 am
Lexus IS or if you need SUV an NX. I wouldn’t bother with hybrid or electric as a requirement if you’re driving so few miles. Fuel efficiency isn’t as significant and you’re nowhere near 100k in a decade. Choose the vehicle based on performance and features. Memory seats and mirrors are nice with multiple drivers. Anyone include a power memory rear view mirror yet?
The Lexus IS was our 2nd choice when we leased the BMW in 2017. The Lexus salesman tried to convince us that it would clear the bump on our driveway. So, he drove it to our house and, of course, scraped the car on the bottom when going over the bump. Also, the IS seat sits low -- I need to sit on four pillows to drive it. NX is a possibility -- but my son didn't like it.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:10 pm

02nz wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:04 am
I don't think the technology on PHEVs is volving all that quickly - it's a transitional technology and the industry is moving toward full EVs, much as I like my Chevy Volt. The first-gen Volt was a brilliant demonstration of the advantages of PHEVs, and nothing much has changed in the decade since. So I don't know that I'd get rid of the BMW because of that fear, although I'd worry about repair costs on such a complex vehicle, and a German one at that.

Have you considered the Model Y? It's basically a taller 3. It's not much higher so entry shouldn't be an issue, but the higher seating position may improve visibility for you. It will remain pricey though ($53K and up) until they bring out the lower-priced, lower-range versions.

If you like the BMW for its driving feel, I think you may have a hard time getting anything near the same driving enjoyment from anything on that list except the Tesla. The Crosstrek, LEAF, Ioniq, Kona, etc. are all going to be a significant step down.
I have asked BMW to give me an estimate for purchasing our current BMW and for extending the maintenance agreement. I have an appointment to get the vehicle inspected next week. While there, I will look at other BMW and Volvo options.

I don't think the Tesla Model Y is available yet. It is 3 inches wider than the Model 3, which would make it difficult to park in tight spaces, such as most grocery store parking lots.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:14 pm

EagleI wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:00 am
You may want to consider extending your lease. I have a VW Passat coming off lease and there is no way to actually car shop In my area due to the Coronavirus restrictions. VW is offering to extend the lease up to 6 months at a reduced rate. Of course this is to their advantage, as their dealers can’t take receipt of my car nor really sell it again right now. It’s possible BMW is doing something similar.
I asked BMW if they would consider extending the lease. They said I would need to discuss it with financial services, but that generally, I would be able to extend it by one month; I don't know about six months. I would need to pay for the annual registration, even if I extend by only one month.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Normchad » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:35 pm

BMW experts seem to unanimously agree that you should never own a BMW that isn't under warranty. So if you really like the BMW, and it fits you and your son well, leasing a new one might be the best choice.

I have a Tesla model 3 and absolutely love it. Judging by the low mileage on your BMW, you don't sound like you take 600-700 daily trips in a straight line. So you wouldn't have a range problem with something like the Tesla Model 3. In terms of conquest buyers, I think former BMW owners are the #1 buyers of the Model 3. So people that like BMW seem to also like Tesla.

I wouldn't bother trying to do the math to justify either of those choices. You can torture the numbers, but leasing a BMW or dropping $50K on Model 3 isn't a good financial mood. It always puts a smile on my face, but I will not live long enough to see any hypothetical break even on the Tesla.

Best money move is to probably by a Toyota Prius and drive it into the ground.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:44 pm

Normchad wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:35 pm

Best money move is to probably by a Toyota Prius and drive it into the ground.
Prius is not an option. Not enough ground clearance. It would scrape the top of my driveway. Someday, I'll move and have a different driveway, but not for another 2-3 years, at least. The driveway belongs to the HOA, so I can't do anything about it.

I drove my Lexus into the ground (20 years). Maintenance was crazy expensive in the last couple years, and I reached a point where I worried that it was too fragile to take on the freeways.

I plan to call a couple electricians next week to ask about upgrading from 120V outlet in garage. One electrician already said it's not possible, but maybe someone else will have another idea.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Normchad » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:55 pm

It’s interesting that the Prius scrapes the driveway. The Model 3 seems quite close to the ground to me, so it may be an issue there as well.

You can absolutely get 240v to your garage. It’s just a matter of hassle and money. Truthfully, I charged my 3 using just the regular outlet for about 3 months. It’s very slow though, adding about 5 miles of range for each hour it was plugged in.

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Pu239 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:17 am

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:44 pm

I plan to call a couple electricians next week to ask about upgrading from 120V outlet in garage. One electrician already said it's not possible, but maybe someone else will have another idea.
With a PHEV, you won't need 220v in the garage. Because of smaller battery size, charging at 110v is all you need unless you drive over, say, 30 miles a day and want to stay in all electric mode. If you get a PHEV, don't decide on a level 2 charger until you see if 110v charging works for you (it works fine for me).
Between the idea And the reality...Between the motion And the act...Falls the Shadow - T. S. Eliot

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:45 am

Yes, the 110v outlet has been fine with the BMW PHEV, which has a 7 kwh capacity battery, but if I switch to an all-electric, such as Tesla, I may want to upgrade. I don't know if it's possible to do so.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:23 am

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:08 pm
OP here with update on car shopping. I had just started looking at cars when the stay-at-home orders went into effect. Some dealerships will allow me to test drive a car; others not so.

I'll respond to the options suggested:
1. Keep / return BMW 330E: As several posters mentioned, I have a high residual on the lease. My total mileage is under 13K, but it may be difficult to sell the car if I decide to keep it another 1-3 years, due to evolving technology and slow sales of PHEV cars.
2. Another BMW: I drove the 330i (ICE) -- it's a maybe; the next 330e (2021 PHEV model) is not available yet
3. Tesla Model 3: I'm considering this, but have had no chance to test-drive or even sit in the car. I would need to place an order ($100 deposit) and wait ten weeks for the car, and then return the car in seven days if it doesn't work out -- sort of like ordering a pair of shoes online, and then having to go barefoot if they don't work out.
4. Toyota RAV4: The RAV4 Prime (PHEV) is not yet available, but I may consider the RAV4 hybrid
5. Toyota Prius Prime: not enough ground clearance -- will scrape on top of my driveway
6. Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid (PHEV): I'm waiting for a salesperson to return my calls
7. Volvo XC60 (PHEV): on my "maybe" list -- have not looked at it yet

Other cars on my "to-be-considered" list
1. Chevy Bolt -- but if I go all electric, would likely prefer the Tesla
2. Nissan Leaf -- all electric
3. Hyundai Ioniq PHEV
4. Kia Niro or Soul
5. Ford Escape hybrid (not a PHEV)
6. Honda CR-V hybrid
7. VW Jetta GLI (ICE)
8. Subaru Forester (ICE)
PHEV may feel virtuous but I believe the empirical data is that they run the gasoline engines a lot more than the assumptions. Thus, the environmental savings are minimised. The battery packs are just not large enough.

I would say electric cars are just not there yet. They will be - but in 3-5 years. What you want is Tesla performance at a sub Tesla price, with higher quality control.

So it's quite likely you will only have this car for 3-5 years. Leasing a BMW might well be a way to do that.

You could go for a used BMW i3. I happen to love the look (straight out of a 1970-80s "world of the future" movie like Tron). But it is very much a city car, and in the USA, the land of huge SUVs, you might feel vulnerable as a driver.

Otherwise if you think you are going to have this car for at least 5+ years, then 4 or 6 would be good bets (off your prime list). Or the Honda CR-V.

Or just take this car off lease. It won't be worth much when you get rid of it in 3-5 years time, in any case.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RootSki » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:15 am

Once you stop looking at PHEV as a cost saver and start looking at it from a performance/torque fill perspective, they make a lot more sense.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:26 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:23 am
PHEV may feel virtuous but I believe the empirical data is that they run the gasoline engines a lot more than the assumptions. Thus, the environmental savings are minimised. The battery packs are just not large enough.
Could you please point to this "empirical data"? And what are "the assumptions"? PHEVs, depending on range and your use case, can be driven 100% on electric (or 100% on gas), there's no assuming there, just how it works for you.

There's a big difference between big SUVs that can only do 10 miles or so and those that can realistically cover most of a typical commute in EV mode. I have a '18 Volt, and about 90% of the total miles driven so far have been on electric - despite my longer than average commute. OP's BMW has shorter EV range but many people would still be able to cover most of their miles in EV mode.

And: it may seem counter-intuitive but PHEVs are better than EVs for reducing CO2 emissions. This is because battery production is constrained and will be for some time. So looking at battery capacity as a finite resource for reducing CO2 emissions, it's better to have 5 PHEVs with 15 WHr batteries (that can do most of their mileage in EV mode) than 1 EV with a 75 WHr battery.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Glockenspiel » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:42 am

samta09 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:53 am
I personally would not own a purely electric car at this time, particularly as my only car, because I want a car that I can drive up to 700-800 miles in any direction in a 12-16 hr day if I need it do so.
You can, in a Tesla.
[/quote]

How frequently do you drive 700-800 miles in one day? Twice a year? In that case, it makes more sense to rent a vehicle, put the miles on the rental, and save your everyday car from the miles.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RustyShackleford » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:09 pm

Haven't read whole thread, so some of this may be duplicate or irrelevant ...

My wife was considering a plug-in hybrid last year, leaning towards a Subaru Crosstrek. But I convinced her to buy an EV instead, and she got a sweet deal on on a used almost-new Nissan Leaf. We LOVE the thing. It is fast as hell, very smooth, and requires virtually no maintenance. We spend about $10/month charging it (thanks to our electric-coop having a special $0.03/kwh rate from 10pm-5am for EV owners.

As a bonus, I was able (I am a EE) to rig it up so I can connect a small inverter and patch that into the home electrical panel during power outages (kinda like a generator, with the usual caveats about interlock so as not to energize dead power lines and endangering linepersons). It can support some key essential loads for 2-3 days.

Considering how nice this car is, I can barely imagine how nice a Tesla would be. I imagine we'll get one of those someday (which was the intention of the guy who sold us the Leaf).

Caveats: I am retired and wife works from home. We also have an ICE car ("internal combustion engine"). Failing these, I dunno if we'd be as enthusiastic.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:40 am

02nz wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:26 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:23 am
PHEV may feel virtuous but I believe the empirical data is that they run the gasoline engines a lot more than the assumptions. Thus, the environmental savings are minimised. The battery packs are just not large enough.
Could you please point to this "empirical data"? And what are "the assumptions"? PHEVs, depending on range and your use case, can be driven 100% on electric (or 100% on gas), there's no assuming there, just how it works for you.
It's certainly the buzz in UK car circles (remember: our petrol is c 2x yours in price, so this matters, and not just for environmental reasons). I agree it entirely depends on how much you drive. Empirical studies I shall have to have a look. The PHEV official mileage numbers here are very close to the HEV ones, I believe.
There's a big difference between big SUVs that can only do 10 miles or so and those that can realistically cover most of a typical commute in EV mode. I have a '18 Volt, and about 90% of the total miles driven so far have been on electric - despite my longer than average commute. OP's BMW has shorter EV range but many people would still be able to cover most of their miles in EV mode.

And: it may seem counter-intuitive but PHEVs are better than EVs for reducing CO2 emissions. This is because battery production is constrained and will be for some time. So looking at battery capacity as a finite resource for reducing CO2 emissions, it's better to have 5 PHEVs with 15 WHr batteries (that can do most of their mileage in EV mode) than 1 EV with a 75 WHr battery.
Friends who have rented BMW i3s have found the "outboard motor" was used a lot more than they expected (ie the range extender).

I agree it's totally dependent on the driving cycle - how much you drive at any one time between charging stations, and how fast you drive.

One issue is that here (London) you park on the street, even in suburbia to an extent. Thus you have to use dedicated charging stations (stringing cords across the pavement ie sidewalk is forbidden). And there are all sorts of issues with those. Non EVs use them to park (parking spots are rare, London ways), they don't work, you are not on that system etc etc.

Colleague who has an electric Jag say they are wary of lengthy journeys because of such problems. The chargers on motorway service stations (ie Interstates) are not serviced. He regrets at this point not buying a Tesla - because Tesla's proprietary network of superchargers is maintained.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by 02nz » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:49 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:40 am
Friends who have rented BMW i3s have found the "outboard motor" was used a lot more than they expected (ie the range extender).
Many PHEVs turn on the gas motor once you go beyond a certain point in the throttle, to provide additional power. The Volt is different, in EV mode it provides full performance without ever turning on the gas engine, except to burn off stale gasoline or in some cold weather conditions.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RustyShackleford » Sun May 03, 2020 5:59 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:23 am
PHEV may feel virtuous but I believe the empirical data is that they run the gasoline engines a lot more than the assumptions.
I don't know about this empirical data. But as an engineer, the simple elegance of an EV appeals to me very much; again, they do not require any maintenance (aside from tire rotation, cabin air filter); until the batteries go bad, of course :-(. Hybrids, on the other hand, seem like they would be very complex.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Wed May 13, 2020 12:40 am

OP here. Car dealerships in CA reopened on Friday. Update so far:
- Chevy Bolt (EV) -- No -- I had to veto this model because the driver seat adjustment is manual -- very inconvenient for sharing the car with my son
- Toyota RAV4 AWD Hybrid (Phev model is not yet available) -- maybe -- seat is comfortable for me; took it on a test drive -- compared to the BMW, it feels like driving a truck
- Honda CR-V Hybrid -- Maybe -- seat is comfortable; Rear-window visibility is obscured by high headrests on passenger seats in the back

An electrician told me that I can upgrade from 120v outlet for faster charging an EV, but it's not practical to make the change. So, if I decide on an all EV car it means that I will be charging it 50 miles a night (at best) at home and then get a full charge at a supercharge location.

I found out today that my son's college classes will be online again in the fall, which means our mileage will continue to be low for the next year.

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Re: Car shopping PHEV / ICE / or all electric?

Post by RetiredCSProf » Fri May 22, 2020 8:39 pm

OP with more updates on my car shopping journey. Still undecided. I was able to look at and sit in (but no test drives) at the local BMW dealership, which also sells Minis and Volvos. If I were getting two cars (and money were no object), I would get a Mini for me and the Volvo S60 for my son. I am considering the possibility of a lease buyout on current BMW

ICE:
> BMW 330i -- dealer has several models in stock; we did drive one as a loaner a few months ago when current BMW was in the shop

> Mini Cooper S Countryman -- ICE (16.1 gal tank) -- seat comfortable for me, but my son is not a fan of the exterior

PHEVS:
> Mini Cooper SE Countryman --it has the same 7.6 kWh battery as our current PHEV (12-mile electric range) and makes the same sacrifice in range with a 9.5 gallon gas tank; low inventory; for purchase only -- cannot lease

> Volvo S60 -- nice-looking car; my son's favorite; but seat is too low for me -- if I sit on 4 pillows, the steering wheel presses against my legs; most expensive of the cars we looked at today

> BMW X3 -- my son was OK with it; but seat and position of brake pedal were awkward for me

> Volvo XC60 -- my son prefers a sedan; seat is awkward for me -- but I like the aesthetics of the interior

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