Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

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infinitejustice
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by infinitejustice » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:01 pm

I would rather have higher pay than lower pay with a pension, if I were in private industry. Why not get paid up front instead of later? And as others have pointed out, company could go bankrupt or default on pension obligations.

Pierre Delecto
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:10 pm

warner25 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:59 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:42 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.
I would not have wanted a job I hated but stayed because of a pension. Lots of areas to balance. Salary, benefits, work culture, career growth, retirement benefits, lifestyle, lcation. These and more need to be prioritized. A pension may not come out on top.
Exactly, it's a balance. I don't know why a pension would make one completely disregard all the other factors and stay in a job they hate.
I am handcuffed by a pension, so let me give some perspective here.

No, your wife's 401k match and health insurance are not handcuffs. She can obtain similar benefits elsewhere, so there is no opportunity cost of leaving her current employer.

As an active duty military officer, I am 8 years shy of a pension and retiree healthcare worth ~$2M. If I only continue for 7.9 years, I get $0. I would need to find a new job paying $500k+ after taxes to break even in financial terms, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not worth anywhere near $500k+ to any other organization. The military's organizational structure just depends on retaining people with 10-20 years of institutional knowledge and experience unique to military service, thus hard to replace and not easily transferable. So, yes, I'm "free to leave," but it's like cutting off my hands to do so. But, yes, it's a balance. My wife and I just need to decide what $2M is worth to our family. Whatever the outcome, like Pierre, I would also caution people from taking a job where so much compensation is deferred rather than paid out as you go.
I find that cliff particularly unfair for military. I know a lot of military people in the 10-15 year band (live in a military area) and it makes planning for their family so difficult. I wish there was a pro Rata option. Seems unfair for all the sacrifices they’ve made with deployments away from family.

Independent George
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Independent George » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:17 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
A pension can be a lifesaver if you didn't do any financial planning, but in many ways a private sector pension is actually a bigger risk than the average Boglehead's retirement accounts. I don't mean that as a knock on your sister (my Mom is a retired nurse whom, if not for her pension, would be living on her social security and a bunch of CDs), but you have no control over how the pension fund invests, and to enjoy the full benefits, you'd have to stay with the same firm for decades (possibly forgoing better pay at another company or another city; good luck if you're married and your spouse gets a job somewhere else).

I've vested in a private sector pension at a Big 4 accounting firm (PM me if you want more info); the expected payout ($1,000 USD/month, or a $200k lump sum; both options are available at age 65 and not adjusted for inflation) are actually less the value of my defined contribution retirement accounts today (age 43). Don't get me wrong - it's good to have more money than you expected (I didn't even realize I had a pension until a few years ago) - but it's a nice little added benefit, not the basis of my financial future. Given a choice, I'd much rather have a larger match to my 401k than the pension.

ETA: I just checked my HR site, and it looks like my pension plan got converted to a cash value plan in 2017 (current accrued benefits: $10,000). I'm still grandfathered into the old pension plan, but those benefits are now locked at the $1,185/month annuity at age 65. If we assume 2.5% annual inflation, that's equivalent to $688/month in current dollars. I believe I can still take a lump sum at age 65, but I'm not sure what the payout is.

warner25
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by warner25 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:58 am

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:10 pm
I wish there was a pro Rata option. Seems unfair for all the sacrifices they’ve made with deployments away from family.
It's explicitly a retention tool. DoD introduced a "blended" system in the last couple of years to be more modern, offering a TSP match now, but notably 90% of the value of the retirement benefits still cliff vest at 20 years. Basically, what's adventurous for a 20 year-old single guy is a nightmare for a 35 year-old with a wife and three kids at home, but we desperately need the institutional knowledge of those 35 year-olds.
Last edited by warner25 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

RightGuard
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by RightGuard » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:23 am

Large non-profit HMO's (hospital side) often still have pensions. I work for two.

There is no contribution amount from the employee and 401k(s) with matching also offered, although cap is modest (1.5% of base pay)

There are minimum work hour stipulations for both.

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celia
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by celia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:39 am

Some companies without a pension contribute to a 401k on your behalf, even if you don’t. You can improve on that by also contributing to get an employer match.

The advantage of this over a pension, is that you can take it with you should you not stay with the company for a long time. So don’t rule out jobs just because they don’t have a pension.

smectym
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by smectym » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:52 am

A mythology has grown up around the “lost paradise” of the company pension.

While for high-ranking corporate executives with retirement payouts amounting to golden parachutes, the pension could be a windfall to celebrate, for most rank-and-file union employees, pension payouts, when they were around, were quite modest. That’s part of the reason that when 401(k)s were first being touted, many bought into the idea that it was better to invest your own money and achieve a higher rate of return, and ultimately a higher standard of living in retirement, than you could get from the miserly company pension (which, by the way, was seldom indexed to inflation).

I am not a fan of the current system. Arguably, it would be better if the company pension were restored, and made portable over the different jobs a worker may predictably traverse over his career, and that 401(k)’s were also available, on top of a minimum defined benefit pension.

Why? Because by now it seems indisputable that only 20% or less of the workforce has both the mathematical literacy and the consistent savings discipline to manage an investment portfolio over 30 or 40 years; an endeavor that requires consistent sacrifice and unswerving adherence to “the plan” throughout all the bumps and bruises of life, as well as a minimum of investing acumen.

And I’m not knocking those who lack these skills and traits. This category includes some of the most intelligent people you’ll ever meet and also some of the most productive workers and greatest contributors to society. (It also includes most lawyers, even more doctors, and every single dentist. [OK, I’m kidding—about the lawyers and doctors...])

But note that, in light of the fact that most final pension benefits for most workers were pretty modest during the heyday of the defined benefit pension, it wouldn’t be that difficult to replicate a similar “check-a-month” pension at 65 with a 401(k) balance of just $250,000. Per immediateannuities.com, that’d get you a lifetime check of ~$1300–and that’s the type of monthly payout, not paired to a COLA, that most workers were staring at during the glorious golden age of the “company pension.”

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by JoeRetire » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:41 am

dm200 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:41 pm
In the private sector, I believe there are almost no employers that provide a pension for retired employees.
Union jobs.
Very Stable Genius

OpenMinded1
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by OpenMinded1 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 am

It isn't true that all federal employees are on track for a fat pension if they stick with their job for at least a couple decades, and make it to minimum retirement age. The federal retirement system has changed. Beginning in 1984, all new federal employees were put in a system that requires employees to rely much more heavily on a 401K-type plan and social security. They still will get a pension, but it will be tiny compared to their pre-retirement income.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by carolinaman » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:23 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:28 pm
teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
1
Military
Federal
State
City and County

Check each depending on the position.
j :happy
I agree with this list. I retired from local government with 28 years of service and have a nice pension.
The downsides of working for an organization offering a pension is that pay is often not as competitive as private sector and advancement opportunities may be more limited. The private sector often has a negative perception of people working in government which can make it difficult to transition to the private sector.

Pensions are much more valuable when you are at or near retirement. For example, if you worked 10 years for an organization with a pension early in your career, became vested and then left, your pension would be a lot less valuable at retirement because it is based upon your salary while working there. 20 years later, inflation would have greatly reduced the purchasing power of your pension. Conversely if you retire from an organization at retirement age with 10 years of service, your pension calculation will most likely be based upon your current salary.

One other caveat is that a number of government pension systems are underfunded. The fear is that they may not pay out 100% of promised benefits. If your nephew decides to work for government, make sure the pension fund is reasonably well funded.

Helo80
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Helo80 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:26 am

OpenMinded1 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 am
It isn't true that all federal employees are on track for a fat pension if they stick with their job for at least a couple decades, and make it to minimum retirement age. The federal retirement system has changed. Beginning in 1984, all new federal employees were put in a system that requires employees to rely much more heavily on a 401K-type plan and social security. They still will get a pension, but it will be tiny compared to their pre-retirement income.

For context, CSRS paid 2.5% per year of service up to 30 years. I believe that everybody was hardcapped at 75% of their high-3. Also, CSRS folks did not pay into SS and had no TSP match (ever). I'm not sure if initially they could even contribute to TSP. When TSP was introduced for those people in the 80's, only the G-Fund existed, and eventually, the C-Fund and others came around. Paycheck contribution was somewhere between 7% and 9%.

Generally speaking, the people I see that rave about CSRS are the ones that seem to be less financially savvy.

With FERs, you at least get the annuity, SS annuity, and then what you've done with your TSP.

Also, agree with many comments here that this is more of a discussion on the state of retirements in America. If OPs friend is making these kinds of comments to her son, she likely has no clue what she's talking about, and certainly will be a stronger influence to her son than we will. If you get to retirement age and your pension is what is keeping you out of the poor house... Statistically, you're probably more likely have been somebody with poor money management skills.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Helo80 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:29 am

smectym wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:52 am
Why? Because by now it seems indisputable that only 20% or less of the workforce has both the mathematical literacy and the consistent savings discipline to manage an investment portfolio over 30 or 40 years; an endeavor that requires consistent sacrifice and unswerving adherence to “the plan” throughout all the bumps and bruises of life, as well as a minimum of investing acumen.

And I’m not knocking those who lack these skills and traits. This category includes some of the most intelligent people you’ll ever meet and also some of the most productive workers and greatest contributors to society. (It also includes most lawyers, even more doctors, and every single dentist. [OK, I’m kidding—about the lawyers and doctors...])

I enjoyed your post overall.

And yes... there are very intelligent people out there who have done amazing things in their careers.... but maybe numbers, math, economics, financial markets are not their strong suits... and these people are scared to death of losing their hard-earned money in the stock market or 401k.

I can totally appreciate why you would prefer to see a more portable pension system.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Strayshot » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:31 am

I don’t know why anyone would desire a pension in this day and age. Save and invest on your own, and have the freedom to actually participate in the labor market where you can choose the employment, role, and compensation that is a best fit for you based on what companies will offer at that instant in time.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:21 am

Another advantage of government pensions (city, state, city n county, fed, military), sometimes if heavily unionized, is the ability to stack retirements/pensions because on is able to "retire" at earlier ages and with less duration in.

IE: one city and county police department allows one to "retire" with 20 years in. Theoretically, this means if one joined up at 18 then that option would be open at age 38!!!!

Depending on the system and setup, the early "retiree" then get's hired back into the system, sometimes in the same job, and collects the lst retirement on top of earnings.
It is not unusual for someone strategizing the "system" to earn 3 retirements by the time they are 65+. on top of SS.

There is also the military reserves where one can earn a "pension" concurrently with another career (s).

While the above career/employment paths are not for everyone or everyone's temperament, there are many that have benefitted from them

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by yangtui » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am

Deciding on a first job based on whether an employer has a pension or not is a very bad idea. Entry-level jobs are for building human capital and your network. You should start saving from day one but you really need to focus on learning and making contacts early in your career. Heck, in some situations it might make sense to PAY an employer to let you work there just so you can put their name on your resume.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:37 am

yangtui wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am
Deciding on a first job based on whether an employer has a pension or not is a very bad idea. Entry-level jobs are for building human capital and your network. You should start saving from day one but you really need to focus on learning and making contacts early in your career.
Excellent point.

I know 2 young men who had selected their first jobs after leaving the university on the basis of pension and long term stability. Both are working in government jobs, in IT positions that will not likely change for decades as far as the chair, the cubby (cubicle), and the excitement/ambition/interest level (zero as I've heard from them).

Humorously:
Somehow this reminds me of the "sloths" in the animated movie "Zootopia".
Sloth scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_2E6nlnMPU

j :happy
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:37 am
yangtui wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am
Deciding on a first job based on whether an employer has a pension or not is a very bad idea. Entry-level jobs are for building human capital and your network. You should start saving from day one but you really need to focus on learning and making contacts early in your career.
Excellent point.

I know 2 young men who had selected their first jobs after leaving the university on the basis of pension and long term stability. Both are working in government jobs, in IT positions that will not likely change for decades as far as the chair, the cubby (cubicle), and the excitement/ambition/interest level (zero as I've heard from them).

Humorously:
Somehow this reminds me of the "sloths" in the animated movie "Zootopia".
Sloth scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_2E6nlnMPU

j :happy
Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:58 am

JoeRetire wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:41 am
dm200 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:41 pm
In the private sector, I believe there are almost no employers that provide a pension for retired employees.
Union jobs.
A few unions pensions are very rocky- Central States Teamsters, go look that one up - scary!
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:01 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:37 am
yangtui wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am
Deciding on a first job based on whether an employer has a pension or not is a very bad idea. Entry-level jobs are for building human capital and your network. You should start saving from day one but you really need to focus on learning and making contacts early in your career.
Excellent point.

I know 2 young men who had selected their first jobs after leaving the university on the basis of pension and long term stability. Both are working in government jobs, in IT positions that will not likely change for decades as far as the chair, the cubby (cubicle), and the excitement/ambition/interest level (zero as I've heard from them).

Humorously:
Somehow this reminds me of the "sloths" in the animated movie "Zootopia".
Sloth scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_2E6nlnMPU

j :happy
Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
Hopefully those coworkers won’t be the people tasked with responding to Coronavirus! Yikes!

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:15 am

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:01 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:37 am
yangtui wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am
Deciding on a first job based on whether an employer has a pension or not is a very bad idea. Entry-level jobs are for building human capital and your network. You should start saving from day one but you really need to focus on learning and making contacts early in your career.
Excellent point.

I know 2 young men who had selected their first jobs after leaving the university on the basis of pension and long term stability. Both are working in government jobs, in IT positions that will not likely change for decades as far as the chair, the cubby (cubicle), and the excitement/ambition/interest level (zero as I've heard from them).

Humorously:
Somehow this reminds me of the "sloths" in the animated movie "Zootopia".
Sloth scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_2E6nlnMPU

j :happy
Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
Hopefully those coworkers won’t be the people tasked with responding to Coronavirus! Yikes!
Well, if it shows up in a school, unfortunately yes.

It's OK to just be a worker bee, looking to do enough and skate buy. That isn't me.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:24 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:37 am
yangtui wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am
Deciding on a first job based on whether an employer has a pension or not is a very bad idea. Entry-level jobs are for building human capital and your network. You should start saving from day one but you really need to focus on learning and making contacts early in your career.
Excellent point.

I know 2 young men who had selected their first jobs after leaving the university on the basis of pension and long term stability. Both are working in government jobs, in IT positions that will not likely change for decades as far as the chair, the cubby (cubicle), and the excitement/ambition/interest level (zero as I've heard from them).

Humorously:
Somehow this reminds me of the "sloths" in the animated movie "Zootopia".
Sloth scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_2E6nlnMPU

j :happy
Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
+1
Gosh, this is so true.
Certainly not for everyone.
There are some families that do this generationally. Getting in to the "system". It can be great for those that aspire to that.
IE: DW's first job was with the IRS in Washington D.C. The old days. Great room with rows of gray desks with typewriters and in/out bins. Forms processing. Employees from new to 20 years at the same desks. DW did not last long.

j :happy
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by supersharpie » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:25 am

State Farm offers a pension to all employees except for agents.

1.3% of your average "high 5" salary per year of service, capped at 35 years. Although "retirement age" is officially 65 for new hires, you can take it at 62 without a reduction.

The pension is not adjusted for inflation.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Angst » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:42 am

RightGuard wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:23 am
Large non-profit HMO's (hospital side) often still have pensions. I work for two.

There is no contribution amount from the employee and 401k(s) with matching also offered, although cap is modest (1.5% of base pay)

There are minimum work hour stipulations for both.
This ^ exactly. Many large hospital systems still have pensions. Entry can be at a very low level, getting one a foot in the door. I work for one.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by watchnerd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:55 am

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
His mom is living the past, better to drop the goal.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by cheese_breath » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:00 am

watchnerd wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:55 am
teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
His mom is living the past, better to drop the goal.
At least she didn't tell him to get an Oldsmobile. :D
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by OpenMinded1 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:28 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:21 am
Another advantage of government pensions (city, state, city n county, fed, military), sometimes if heavily unionized, is the ability to stack retirements/pensions because on is able to "retire" at earlier ages and with less duration in.

IE: one city and county police department allows one to "retire" with 20 years in. Theoretically, this means if one joined up at 18 then that option would be open at age 38!!!!

Depending on the system and setup, the early "retiree" then get's hired back into the system, sometimes in the same job, and collects the lst retirement on top of earnings.
It is not unusual for someone strategizing the "system" to earn 3 retirements by the time they are 65+. on top of SS.

There is also the military reserves where one can earn a "pension" concurrently with another career (s).

While the above career/employment paths are not for everyone or everyone's temperament, there are many that have benefitted from them

j :happy
Regarding retirement from civilian service with the federal government, for most occupations, the minimum retirement age is increasing. (There are a few exceptions, like certain law enforcement jobs.) Also, if you retire from the fed, you can sometimes go back to work for the fed as an annuitant. However, in almost all cases, the amount of your pension will be deducted from your pay. For example, if your pension pays $50K per year, and you go back to work for the fed as an annuitant in a job that normally pays $60K per year, the new job will only pay about $10K a year. (60K - 50K.) You keep getting your pension, but only get about $10K more per year to work.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by OpenMinded1 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:09 pm

infinitejustice wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:01 pm
I would rather have higher pay than lower pay with a pension, if I were in private industry. Why not get paid up front instead of later? And as others have pointed out, company could go bankrupt or default on pension obligations.
From the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation website:

What is the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC)?
PBGC is a federal agency created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) to protect pension benefits in private-sector defined benefit plans - the kind that typically pay a set monthly amount at retirement. If your plan ends (this is called "plan termination") without sufficient money to pay all benefits, PBGC's insurance program will pay you the benefit provided by your pension plan up to the limits set by law. (Most people receive the full benefit they had earned before the plan terminated.) Our financing comes from insurance premiums paid by companies whose plans we protect, from our investments, from the assets of pension plans that we take over as trustee, and from recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans, but not from taxes. Your plan is insured even if your employer fails to pay the required premiums.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:23 pm

OpenMinded1 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:09 pm
infinitejustice wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:01 pm
I would rather have higher pay than lower pay with a pension, if I were in private industry. Why not get paid up front instead of later? And as others have pointed out, company could go bankrupt or default on pension obligations.
From the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation website:

What is the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC)?
PBGC is a federal agency created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) to protect pension benefits in private-sector defined benefit plans - the kind that typically pay a set monthly amount at retirement. If your plan ends (this is called "plan termination") without sufficient money to pay all benefits, PBGC's insurance program will pay you the benefit provided by your pension plan up to the limits set by law. (Most people receive the full benefit they had earned before the plan terminated.) Our financing comes from insurance premiums paid by companies whose plans we protect, from our investments, from the assets of pension plans that we take over as trustee, and from recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans, but not from taxes. Your plan is insured even if your employer fails to pay the required premiums.
From what I’ve heard they don’t pay 100 percent and people take large haircuts if they’re plan falls into.

And payouts would probably just keep getting pushed lower if rate of bankrupt plans increases from historically rate. There’s a finite pool of money to divide up.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by watchnerd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:48 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am


Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
Yeah, I don't want a job that is like serving time in prison, no matter how good the pension.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:50 pm

watchnerd wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:48 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am


Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
Yeah, I don't want a job that is like serving time in prison, no matter how good the pension.
+ 1

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by IowaFarmBoy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:57 pm

My megacorp still offers a traditional pension plan which is a great benefit for me. I'll be drawing about 40% of my salary after 27 years of service. It works really well if you can get in 20-30 years with the company and especially if those years include your last (highest paid) working years. The company is in a smaller midwestern city where people don't tend to job hop so employees have tended to have long careers. We have now moved to a more dispersed model with employment hubs in several larger cities. I don't think the employees in those cities will have the same tendency to stick around so the pension will not be nearly as attractive to them. Our kids tend to be at companies that don't have pensions but have more competitive salaries. Neither model is right or wrong, but for the pension to work for the employee, it really takes a long career with the company to pay off.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by watchnerd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:58 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:50 pm

+ 1
Thank you, senator.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by KyleAAA » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:05 pm

Some large financial companies still do. I got a job offer from one a few years ago that included a pension but I didn’t accept it.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by watchnerd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:07 pm

IowaFarmBoy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:57 pm
My megacorp still offers a traditional pension plan which is a great benefit for me. I'll be drawing about 40% of my salary after 27 years of service. It works really well if you can get in 20-30 years with the company and especially if those years include your last (highest paid) working years. The company is in a smaller midwestern city where people don't tend to job hop so employees have tended to have long careers. We have now moved to a more dispersed model with employment hubs in several larger cities. I don't think the employees in those cities will have the same tendency to stick around so the pension will not be nearly as attractive to them. Our kids tend to be at companies that don't have pensions but have more competitive salaries. Neither model is right or wrong, but for the pension to work for the employee, it really takes a long career with the company to pay off.
And the company pension has to survive for decades *after* you spend decades working at the company.

That's a combined 40-60 years of risk concentrated in the success of one company.

That's a lot of life risk concentrated in one company.

As someone who has never had a pension, and has only had defined contribution plans, I feel like I get to meet capitalism on equal terms: I don't expect any loyalty from my employers, but in return, I expect to get market competitive compensation to keep me from going elsewhere.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by pahkcah » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:40 pm

Please don’t discourage your nephew from seeking a position with the Federal Government. DW and worked our entire careers for the same Federal department and would not change a thing. Although we both retired under the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS), the newer Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) also provides an excellent retirement that includes a defined pension, Social Security, and the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). The Government provides up to a 5% match of gross salary for contributions made to the TSP (the first 1% is provided by the Government for free).

One of the major reasons (besides saving money on the Federal side) for setting up the new Federal retirement system was to try and eliminate the golden handcuffs issue. Leaving a FERS position allows an individual to keep building on Social Security credits and allows for the transference of funds from the TSP to an IRA or 401K plan at a new job.

Advancing beyond a certain level may/will probably require moving. In our case, we moved from the Midwest to our agency headquarters near D.C. The Government also provides a lot of additional benefits including health care, training, teleworking, vacation and sick leave, etc. Things may change, but as of now, the health care can be carried into retirement.

Something that is hard to measure is the sense of providing support for the welfare of fellow citizens of our Country. Working for the Government isn't about receiving more money or increasing corporate profitability. It can be very rewarding at the end of a career to know/hope that you helped make life better in some way for others.

Just to provide clarity (and response) to a couple of comments previously stated within this thread:

1. The pension part of the FERS is not insignificant. The average monthly payment for a FERS retiree in 2018 was $1,834 per month. A FERS employee who retires after 30 years with a high three average salary of $90,000 would receive about $30,000 per year for the defined pension part of her/his retirement.
2. One difference between FERS and CSRS is that the FERS Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA), assuming there is a yearly increase, can be less than what CSRS retirees receive. As an example, in 2019 FERS retirees received a 2.0% COLA increase, while CSRS retirees received a 2.8% COLA increase. Thus, the FERS defined pension part of retirement can lose value compared to the CSRS pension over time.
3. CSRS annuity is computed as follows: 1.5% for first 5 years, 1.75% for next 5 years, and 2% for every year beyond the 10th year. The maximum is 80% of the average salary for the three highest consecutive years of salary during a career. Average in 2018 for CSRS was $4,973 per month.
4. Worked in IT for my entire career in the Department of Defense. Maybe I was fortunate to be in the right place, but I can state that we were able to work with the very latest technologies.
5. Also worked in IT in private industry. There are sloths everywhere, they aren’t unique to the Government. :happy
6. I’m far from a financial genius. Being conservative, financially speaking, I weighed the option of receiving less pay when starting out versus a guaranteed pension down the line. The only “problem” we have today is that, counting no other income, our Federal pensions push us into a higher Medicare Income Related Monthly Adjustment Amount (IRMAA) tier, which isn’t a bad problem to have. :happy

Best of luck to your nephew in finding the right position!

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:50 pm
watchnerd wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:48 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am


Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
Yeah, I don't want a job that is like serving time in prison, no matter how good the pension.
+ 1
These were quite pleasant jobs with little stress, it was the people I was surrounded by (apathetic, always trying to put forth the absolute minimum effort to maintain their job, unreliable, etc.). This was 3 separate organizations in two different states, none offered a pension.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by watchnerd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:49 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm


These were quite pleasant jobs with little stress, it was the people I was surrounded by (apathetic, always trying to put forth the absolute minimum effort to maintain their job, unreliable, etc.). This was 3 separate organizations in two different states, none offered a pension.
That doesn't pleasant at all to me!
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:52 pm

watchnerd wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:48 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:53 am


Amazingly, that is exactly what a lot of people want. I worked early in my career in public health; the amount of people I worked with in the public sector who were just there to do the absolute bare minimum and valued stability (really, the difficulty of getting fired) over anything was staggering to me. I had to get out. If that is you, an entry-level job with a pension is probably something to look for.
Yeah, I don't want a job that is like serving time in prison, no matter how good the pension.
My first job after majoring in Finance at the university was doing audits in the back room of a bank. No computers. No windows. Not even an indoor plant. And, nobody else in the room.
It is easy to imagine how long I lasted at that job. :shock:

But, as one senior pensioner had told me long ago, there's a job/career/profession for everyone that makes them happy and life complete.
So true.

j :happy
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by FI4LIFE » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:28 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
+1 from someone in this exact situation

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by simplesimon » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:02 pm

For those that had their private pensions frozen while working, what made you stay with the same employer?

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:49 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
I doubt Defined Benefit pension schemes will exist in the private sector in 20 years time. Maybe 10.

Reasons:

- companies are in such turbulence nowadays. Consider GE once the world's largest company. Even stable industries like utilities are facing massive disruption to their business models. Jeff Bezos is always reminding Amazon staff that the half life of companies is less than 50 years

- a final salary DB scheme is an open ended liability for employers to lower interest rates and to increased longevity. No sensible view of financial risk would permit the Board to accept such a liability if it can be capped

- low interest rates mean a risk free hedging of pension liabilities, by buying long bonds and TIPS, is incredibly expensive

- the whole concept of employees and employment is in flux. We should plan on as many as 8 careers (I am on my 5th) and just as our employers will be merging divesting, selling to LBO, restructuring any number of times, so too will we experience periods of self employment and contractual "gig" work

People mention Energy companies. All the oil majors are products of mergers and takeovers. BP Amoco and Exxon Mobil etc. And whilst oil companies will surely be around in 30 years will they be so in 60? Yet someone joining now is counting on that for a DB scheme. My father and then my mother have collected from my father's pension for 30 years and still going strong. For as long as he worked for the company.

Government is different. Whilst many government jobs can be outsourced to private contractors there are still core functions which are unlikely to be. And central government pension schemes are often unfunded and thus the future cost can be ignored by policymakers now. This is not true if funded schemes of course. Also unions are much stronger generally in tge public sector.

So government jobs are likely to continue to have such pensions.

But note the UK government slashed pensions by 40% in real present value terms. Made them career average, starting at 67 not 65, indexed to a different and lower inflation measure.

So not even government workers are immune.

But private sector? I just don't think anyone starting work now can rely on such a scheme being there in 2050.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by nguy44 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:29 pm

simplesimon wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:02 pm
For those that had their private pensions frozen while working, what made you stay with the same employer?
I was lucky because of the timing. I had 28 years and was within 2 years of retirement eligibility when it happened. Though the pension was frozen in terms of additional years of salary counting towards it, it was not frozen in terms of years of service. That many only have been for folks like me who were at the time of the freeze less than 5 years from being eligible to retire, and who were eligible for pensions (they had eliminated pensions for most workers about 8 years before). Retiring at a later year would still increase it (just at a lower rate). In addition, for those of us within 5 years the company increased the 401K match so that it was up 10 10% of my salary. So it make sense to hang around.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Independent George » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:30 pm

simplesimon wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:02 pm
For those that had their private pensions frozen while working, what made you stay with the same employer?
I like my job, I get to work from home, and I earn decent pay; the pension is just not a factor in my decision making (which is just as well seeing as how I have no influence on it whatsoever). In the 15+ years I've been working here, I've honestly never needed, wanted, nor cared the slightest bit about my pension. I'll take whatever payment they want to give me, but it does not factor into my planning in the slightest. My future is my own responsibility, and no one else's; actually, that's true of everyone, but very few people seem to realize it.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Matigas » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:04 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:10 pm
warner25 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:59 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:42 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm


This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.
I would not have wanted a job I hated but stayed because of a pension. Lots of areas to balance. Salary, benefits, work culture, career growth, retirement benefits, lifestyle, lcation. These and more need to be prioritized. A pension may not come out on top.
Exactly, it's a balance. I don't know why a pension would make one completely disregard all the other factors and stay in a job they hate.
I am handcuffed by a pension, so let me give some perspective here.

No, your wife's 401k match and health insurance are not handcuffs. She can obtain similar benefits elsewhere, so there is no opportunity cost of leaving her current employer.

As an active duty military officer, I am 8 years shy of a pension and retiree healthcare worth ~$2M. If I only continue for 7.9 years, I get $0. I would need to find a new job paying $500k+ after taxes to break even in financial terms, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not worth anywhere near $500k+ to any other organization. The military's organizational structure just depends on retaining people with 10-20 years of institutional knowledge and experience unique to military service, thus hard to replace and not easily transferable. So, yes, I'm "free to leave," but it's like cutting off my hands to do so. But, yes, it's a balance. My wife and I just need to decide what $2M is worth to our family. Whatever the outcome, like Pierre, I would also caution people from taking a job where so much compensation is deferred rather than paid out as you go.
I find that cliff particularly unfair for military. I know a lot of military people in the 10-15 year band (live in a military area) and it makes planning for their family so difficult. I wish there was a pro Rata option. Seems unfair for all the sacrifices they’ve made with deployments away from family.
If it was easy, everyone would want to do it.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by infotrader » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:19 pm

greg24 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 pm
This is a 3rd-hand information request.

There is about a 1% chance that the job seeker will use the information posted in this thread to pursue a job with a company just because it has a pension.

And a 0.1% chance they'll land a job at one of the mentioned companies.

And a 0.01% chance they'll stay long enough to vest.
And a 0.001% chance that the company can still offer the pension when they retire.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandi_k » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:22 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:41 am
dm200 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:41 pm
In the private sector, I believe there are almost no employers that provide a pension for retired employees.
Union jobs.
As of 2018, still 16% of the Fortune 500:

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by alec » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:37 pm

simplesimon wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:02 pm
For those that had their private pensions frozen while working, what made you stay with the same employer?
My company froze the pension, but then started contributing more to the 401k in lieu of more pension benefits. So, we get a match on our contributions plus another 3-7%, depending on how long you’ve been with company.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by firebirdparts » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:04 pm

SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:37 pm
simplesimon wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:29 pm
I work for a bank that still offers a pension. I just joined and was surprised that they did. It was not the reason I joined. It vests after 5 years. After 10 years, the multiplier increases.

Downsides have been mentioned: the company itself or the pension may not be around in 30-40 years,
Once the pension is vested, it should be protected barring company bankruptcy, and even then by the PGBC to some extent, right ?
Maybe, but you're not really talking about any real money until you're retirement eligible. You can be vested at age 25 and they owe you $50 a month.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:27 pm

My first job after grad school had a pension plan. A few years later everybody under the age of mumble had their cash value converted to a balance in a defined contribution plan, and I don't remember if it was specifically a 401(k) as opposed to being organized under some other aspect of law. There was a company contribution that wasn't a match, and it was as high as the one to the old plan. Later they cut it by more than half, and also switched us to expensive funds, around 2.5% expense ratios if I recall.

One of my reports elected to put everything in the fund they told us was highest risk, an international, that is to say ex-US, equities fund. It went down. I remember him being very disappointed, and telling me, this is a direct quote because I remember the interaction well, "it was supposed to go up."

Another time, during my second stint in grad school (also successful), for some years I held a staff job at a state university library. It came with mandatory pension contributions. By the time I left I was vested to the point I could take the cash value and put it in an IRA. Had it stayed put the projection was I'd have a pension of around $50 per month. The state has since reorganized its pension system, but I didn't pay attention to details because I was already out of there.

I wouldn't suggest making a pension plan a mandatory requirement.

I have seen far too many parents, including mine, try to control their offspring by imposing impossible standards. The person is twenty three years old. Surely any compensation package is a matter for the adult to decide about for themselves.

PJW

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:14 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:27 pm
. . . . .
I wouldn't suggest making a pension plan a mandatory requirement.

I have seen far too many parents, including mine, try to control their offspring by imposing impossible standards. The person is twenty three years old. Surely any compensation package is a matter for the adult to decide about for themselves.

PJW
+1
IE: I have seen one set of overprotective controlling parents seemingly doom their 2 children into a life of mediocrity. Fresh out of college into pensioned secure employment within data processing personal cubicles. Neither of the children like their jobs but parents are happy so they've stay put, and will stay put. As if, 28 going on 80.

Children innately want to please their parents, so the onus of promoting independent thought is on the parents.
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