Zero Stocks In Retirement

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lessismore22
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by lessismore22 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:29 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm
0/100 seems much riskier than 30/70 or even 50/50. Would hate to see someone give up all that potential growth.
It's all relative. Here is an example, a couple is age 65, accumulated a portfolio of $10 million, their annual expenses are $150,000. Their income in retirement will be Social Security of $60K, requiring $90K to be taken from the portfolio.

Do you still consider a 0/100 portfolio to be riskier? It's all about how you think about things. A 100% portfolio in fixed income could earn anywhere from 2-3% over the next 10 years. Still think it's risky? Dividends can be cut, contractually owed monies are a different animal altogether. The chances are nearly 99% that there will be plenty of money available for someone else to spend after the couple moves on to the next world.
Yes, if you're going to use an example of the less than 1% of people that will retire with 10M, then my argument doesn't make sense. But for the other 99% of the population a 0/100 portfolio is risky.

Ari
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by Ari » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:17 am

All in, all the time.

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celia
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by celia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:37 am

There are a lot of seniors who have no assets (no stocks) and live on SS only. But you will not likely see them posting here. Occasionally someone here posts on their behalf about something other than stocks (or not).

user9532
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by user9532 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:52 am

Think about a retired federal employee who lives on his FERS pension and social security and moved his entire TSP into the G fund.

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jfn111
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by jfn111 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:41 am

My sister survives on an AA of 0/Social Security/jfn111. :shock:

hoops777
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by hoops777 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:30 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm
0/100 seems much riskier than 30/70 or even 50/50. Would hate to see someone give up all that potential growth.
It's all relative. Here is an example, a couple is age 65, accumulated a portfolio of $10 million, their annual expenses are $150,000. Their income in retirement will be Social Security of $60K, requiring $90K to be taken from the portfolio.

Do you still consider a 0/100 portfolio to be riskier? It's all about how you think about things. A 100% portfolio in fixed income could earn anywhere from 2-3% over the next 10 years. Still think it's risky? Dividends can be cut, contractually owed monies are a different animal altogether. The chances are nearly 99% that there will be plenty of money available for someone else to spend after the couple moves on to the next world.
I find it kind of amusing that we could be concerned about a couple with 10,000,000 running out of money :D
The simple reality is that most people do not have to have stocks in retirement. Based on historical returns is it most likely to produce more money,yes of course, unless you have really bad luck with a sequence of returns disaster.
This is mostly an investing forum that attracts people that have much greater wealth than most Americans, so naturally it is a little removed from most people’s financial situations. When you are talking about people that spend a lot of money,stocks become more important.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Location: New York

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:38 am

lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:29 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm
0/100 seems much riskier than 30/70 or even 50/50. Would hate to see someone give up all that potential growth.
It's all relative. Here is an example, a couple is age 65, accumulated a portfolio of $10 million, their annual expenses are $150,000. Their income in retirement will be Social Security of $60K, requiring $90K to be taken from the portfolio.

Do you still consider a 0/100 portfolio to be riskier? It's all about how you think about things. A 100% portfolio in fixed income could earn anywhere from 2-3% over the next 10 years. Still think it's risky? Dividends can be cut, contractually owed monies are a different animal altogether. The chances are nearly 99% that there will be plenty of money available for someone else to spend after the couple moves on to the next world.
Yes, if you're going to use an example of the less than 1% of people that will retire with 10M, then my argument doesn't make sense. But for the other 99% of the population a 0/100 portfolio is risky.
No it's not, depending on income streams, a 0/100 portfolio is not risky if there are sufficient other sources of income that is not totally reliant upon the portfolio or if your longevity is limited.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:38 am

hoops777 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:30 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm
0/100 seems much riskier than 30/70 or even 50/50. Would hate to see someone give up all that potential growth.
It's all relative. Here is an example, a couple is age 65, accumulated a portfolio of $10 million, their annual expenses are $150,000. Their income in retirement will be Social Security of $60K, requiring $90K to be taken from the portfolio.

Do you still consider a 0/100 portfolio to be riskier? It's all about how you think about things. A 100% portfolio in fixed income could earn anywhere from 2-3% over the next 10 years. Still think it's risky? Dividends can be cut, contractually owed monies are a different animal altogether. The chances are nearly 99% that there will be plenty of money available for someone else to spend after the couple moves on to the next world.
I find it kind of amusing that we could be concerned about a couple with 10,000,000 running out of money :D
The simple reality is that most people do not have to have stocks in retirement. Based on historical returns is it most likely to produce more money,yes of course, unless you have really bad luck with a sequence of returns disaster.
This is mostly an investing forum that attracts people that have much greater wealth than most Americans, so naturally it is a little removed from most people’s financial situations. When you are talking about people that spend a lot of money,stocks become more important.
Ah yes, first world problems! :D
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

wriley4409
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Location: Little Rock,AR

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by wriley4409 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:43 am

A 100% bond allocation is more risky than an 80/20 bond/stock allocation, based on the number of years of loss from 1926 through the present time. https://www.financialsamurai.com/histor ... eightings/

Grt2bOutdoors
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Location: New York

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:48 am

wriley4409 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:43 am
A 100% bond allocation is more risky than an 80/20 bond/stock allocation, based on the number of years of loss from 1926 through the present time. https://www.financialsamurai.com/histor ... eightings/
Yes, very risky since most people alive in 1926 have expired. :oops:
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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lthenderson
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by lthenderson » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:56 am

White Coat Investor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:59 pm
I know lots of people who invest it all in real estate. No stocks or bonds.
+1

Just finished settling my mom's estate a couple months ago and it was 100% real estate (farm land). Interestingly enough, she did nearly as well as my stocks did in the same time frame. Since it is now in a trust, it will become a significant part of my portfolio in the future.

michaeljc70
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am

hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Is that after inflation or will that $50k be less and less in real terms each year?

csm
Posts: 323
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by csm » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:11 pm

We retired two years ago (me at age 60, husband at age 51) and when I was tweaking our portfolio, I was very tempted to go 0% stocks. But I saw a link here (not the one a few posts above this post, but another than I wish I could find again), that showed a 30/70 allocation being less risky than 0/100 (similarly that a 70/30 outperformed a 100/0). We are at about 35% stocks right now.

I have a stable, defined benefit, COLA-adjusted pension (with survivor benefit) that exceeds our current expenses. We have a mortgage-free home, no debt, and investments that would permit nearly as much again as our annual pension to be withdrawn at 4% withdrawal rate. We haven't touched the investments since we retired, living on the pension (with money left over). We have no children, heirs or legacy.

I do think we'd be ok at 0% stocks, but at the same time, we can survive a drop in our portfolio if stocks took a hit since only a third of our investments are in stocks.

michaeljc70
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:19 pm

It is interesting to hear different thought processes. Some people think that because their expenses are covered by SS/pensions 0% stocks is okay while I would think the opposite. If I don't need to rely on the portfolio I'd take more risk (well, risk is a fairly nebulous term but in this case meaning more stocks).

Presintense
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Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by Presintense » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:20 pm

hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Congratulations. Sounds like you have what you want and it’s working. Possibly you’d have done better by including the stock market, but the enemy of “good” is “better”.
Performance = Potential - Distraction

hoops777
Posts: 2782
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by hoops777 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:21 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am
hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Is that after inflation or will that $50k be less and less in real terms each year?
Does it really matter? They will be spent in the next 3 years or so.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

1130Super
Posts: 202
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Location: Minnesota

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by 1130Super » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:22 pm

lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:29 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm
0/100 seems much riskier than 30/70 or even 50/50. Would hate to see someone give up all that potential growth.
It's all relative. Here is an example, a couple is age 65, accumulated a portfolio of $10 million, their annual expenses are $150,000. Their income in retirement will be Social Security of $60K, requiring $90K to be taken from the portfolio.

Do you still consider a 0/100 portfolio to be riskier? It's all about how you think about things. A 100% portfolio in fixed income could earn anywhere from 2-3% over the next 10 years. Still think it's risky? Dividends can be cut, contractually owed monies are a different animal altogether. The chances are nearly 99% that there will be plenty of money available for someone else to spend after the couple moves on to the next world.
Yes, if you're going to use an example of the less than 1% of people that will retire with 10M, then my argument doesn't make sense. But for the other 99% of the population a 0/100 portfolio is risky.
Yes I would still consider it riskier what happens if if you have a period of hyperinflation?

michaeljc70
Posts: 6201
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:23 pm

hoops777 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:21 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am
hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Is that after inflation or will that $50k be less and less in real terms each year?
Does it really matter? They will be spent in the next 3 years or so.
It says you have 26 years on the Muni's....and "We will re-evaluate when everything matures".

hoops777
Posts: 2782
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by hoops777 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:28 pm

Presintense wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:20 pm
hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Congratulations. Sounds like you have what you want and it’s working. Possibly you’d have done better by including the stock market, but the enemy of “good” is “better”.
Thank you.There is no question I would have a LOT more money if I had been heavily in the stock market. In all honesty I do sometimes think about what might have been,but I achieved my goal. Right or wrong, the certainty was more important to me and more importantly to my wife.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

hoops777
Posts: 2782
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by hoops777 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:31 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:23 pm
hoops777 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:21 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am
hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Is that after inflation or will that $50k be less and less in real terms each year?
Does it really matter? They will be spent in the next 3 years or so.
It says you have 26 years on the Muni's....and "We will re-evaluate when everything matures".
Well everything but the Muni’s which are GO California bonds paying 5 and 4.3 pct. I do not like my odds of being around to re-evaluate those :D
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

hoops777
Posts: 2782
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by hoops777 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:32 pm

1130Super wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:22 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:29 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
lessismore22 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm
0/100 seems much riskier than 30/70 or even 50/50. Would hate to see someone give up all that potential growth.
It's all relative. Here is an example, a couple is age 65, accumulated a portfolio of $10 million, their annual expenses are $150,000. Their income in retirement will be Social Security of $60K, requiring $90K to be taken from the portfolio.

Do you still consider a 0/100 portfolio to be riskier? It's all about how you think about things. A 100% portfolio in fixed income could earn anywhere from 2-3% over the next 10 years. Still think it's risky? Dividends can be cut, contractually owed monies are a different animal altogether. The chances are nearly 99% that there will be plenty of money available for someone else to spend after the couple moves on to the next world.
Yes, if you're going to use an example of the less than 1% of people that will retire with 10M, then my argument doesn't make sense. But for the other 99% of the population a 0/100 portfolio is risky.
Yes I would still consider it riskier what happens if if you have a period of hyperinflation?
What happens if we have another 2008 that lasts 10 years this time?
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

michaeljc70
Posts: 6201
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:45 pm

hoops777 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:31 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:23 pm
hoops777 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:21 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am
hoops777 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
I am retired at 68. We have zero stocks. No mortgage. A good LTC policy. 66,000 in HSA. About 50,000 in free travel rewards points.
We have CD’s,Ibonds,individual Muni’s,bond mutual funds and some high quality individual bonds,like Microsoft.
When I take my full SS at 70,our combined SS will pay all of our day to day expenses, including a little travel.
Our interest from investments will provide an additional 50K per year as currently invested.
We have 2 1/2 to 6 years left on our current CD’s and individual Corp bonds and 26 years on the Muni’s.
In hindsight, we could have made a lot of money in stocks, but I wanted to be guaranteed to have x amount of dollars when I turned 70 and my spouse is 72. No real regrets and very happy that we will achieve that goal.

We will re-evaluate when everything matures, but plan is to be 30/70 down the road,with the 70 being more than adequate for all of our expenses. In a weird way it is very satisfying that I did it without the stock market. I had my own little business and did it the hard way.
Is that after inflation or will that $50k be less and less in real terms each year?
Does it really matter? They will be spent in the next 3 years or so.
It says you have 26 years on the Muni's....and "We will re-evaluate when everything matures".
Well everything but the Muni’s which are GO California bonds paying 5 and 4.3 pct. I do not like my odds of being around to re-evaluate those :D
Thanks for the clarification. I was generically alluding to inflation risk in a 0% stock portfolio. It also doesn't have to be a time of high inflation. In 2019 inflation was around 1.8% yet the 10 year treasury was yielding below that.

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Johnsson
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by Johnsson » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:53 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:19 pm
It is interesting to hear different thought processes. Some people think that because their expenses are covered by SS/pensions 0% stocks is okay while I would think the opposite. If I don't need to rely on the portfolio I'd take more risk (well, risk is a fairly nebulous term but in this case meaning more stocks).
+1
'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.' Yogi Berra

carolc
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Location: New Hampshire seacoast

Re: Zero Stocks In Retirement

Post by carolc » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:09 am

I am in my 60’s and retired. I like 30% stocks max because I believe that I have enough principle to live off of. I have no children to leave an inheritance to so intend to spend (mostly on travel) what I have. The only wild card is the need for long term care...so I keep that in mind.

carolc

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