Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Post Reply
Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:15 am

I started working on updated to the Fidelity wiki page and looking for some initial feedback. Keep in mind it is still a work in progress.

Draft:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor/Fidelity

Original:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity
Last edited by lexor on Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
Rick Ferri
Posts: 9008
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:40 am
Location: Georgetown, TX. Twitter: @Rick_Ferri
Contact:

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Rick Ferri » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:31 am

I liked the old chart comparing Fidelity, Vanguard, and Schwab index funds by category.

Many Fidelity index funds are less expensive than Vanguard Admiral Shares.

Rick Ferri
The Education of an Index Investor: born in darkness, finds indexing enlightenment, overcomplicates everything, embraces simplicity.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:38 am

Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:31 am
I liked the old chart comparing Fidelity, Vanguard, and Schwab index funds by category.

Many Fidelity index funds are less expensive than Vanguard Admiral Shares.

Rick Ferri
I still have a table and the expense ratios are right next to each other now. I don't have the categories but I was thinking about adding them back in - it's just getting rather large.

I found the old table difficult to read but I would like the find a way to include category and index info back in.

I also will be adding at table for ETFs and including some tax efficiency info based on other Boglehead posts on that topic.

Edit: I changed the heading to Fidelity vs Vanguard vs Schwab Index Funds - not sure if that makes it more clear
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
Rick Ferri
Posts: 9008
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:40 am
Location: Georgetown, TX. Twitter: @Rick_Ferri
Contact:

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Rick Ferri » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:46 am

Rather than have the table in the Fidelity page, maybe give the table it's own separate page and reference that page from the Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. That way you only have to keep one table up to date:

Boglehead-type index funds by investment type and issuer.
The Education of an Index Investor: born in darkness, finds indexing enlightenment, overcomplicates everything, embraces simplicity.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:59 am

Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:46 am
Rather than have the table in the Fidelity page, maybe give the table it's own separate page and reference that page from the Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. That way you only have to keep one table up to date:

Boglehead-type index funds by investment type and issuer.
Good idea I will try that.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

mervinj7
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by mervinj7 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:43 am

lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:15 am
I started working on updated to the Fidelity wiki page and looking for some initial feedback. Keep in mind it is still a work in progress.

Draft:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor

Original:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity
Hi Lexor, great start! However, please remove some of the editorializing and keep to citable facts. For example, Fidelity is not necessarily Vanguard's biggest competitor (one could argue by assets it's BlackRock). Opinions like below are not necessary. You can start whole post arguing about it. Good be fun... :twisted:
Fidelity's offering is more tailored to the Boglehead philosophy than even Vanguard
Last edited by mervinj7 on Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Barry Barnitz
Wiki Admin
Posts: 3190
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:42 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Barry Barnitz » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:07 am

Hi Lexor:

I pm'd you with details about my formatting references edits.

I also added a reference note. I am currently updating spreadsheets containing fiscal year per share distributions for Vanguard, Fidelity, and Schwab index funds posted on the soon- to- be bogleheads.org hosted blog.

Here are the links to these data posts:
regards,
Additional administrative tasks: Financial Page affiliate blog; finiki the Canadian wiki; The Bogle Center for Financial Literacy site; Wiki Bogleheads® España.

mervinj7
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by mervinj7 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:30 pm

lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:59 am
Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:46 am
Rather than have the table in the Fidelity page, maybe give the table it's own separate page and reference that page from the Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. That way you only have to keep one table up to date:

Boglehead-type index funds by investment type and issuer.
Good idea I will try that.
I also prefer the old layout with funds separated by categories (e.g. bonds, international) since that's how folks will generally choose them. Otherwise, it's just a unwieldy list. You can change the highlight from always being Vanguard to the fund with the lowest ER. Though, many would argue that tax efficiency should also be a consideration when comparing costs.

sycamore
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by sycamore » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:26 pm

Regarding the table:

1. I, too, prefer keeping the categories. I don't know enough about editing tables in a wiki to know if you can have row "categories" like that and still sort the table by column like you have in the new page. I like the sortablilty you added, very nice!

2. I like the old table's "Index Tracked" column though keeping it will make the table even wider than now. Presumably that column was added for a reason in the first place, so I think we should keep it.

3. Using 3 significant digits for every ER just looks odd. Only use that last digit if necessary, like for 0.015%. If the ER ends in 0 (like 0.050%), only show 0.05%.

sycamore
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by sycamore » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:51 pm

Lexor,

I'm a new wiki editor, so pardon if I just dump all this here. I'll be more than happy to make the edits myself, just wanted it to discuss first.

Overall I think you've done some helpful updates.

1. In the company sidebar, there's the Headquarters location and a list of "with offices in". What kind of office is that a list of?
It doesn't appear to the same branch locations from https://www.fidelity.com/branches/branch-locations.
I'm not opposed to a list, but my gut feel is it's better to provide only a link to the Fidelity web page of locations so we don't have keep our list up-to-date.


2. In section "Tools for Boglehead-style investing":
- In the first bullet: "Fidelity offers the lowest expense ratios in the industry, well below Vanguard"
I would change it to "even lower than Vanguard" because "well below" is somewhat subjective (there are debates about whether 2 basis points is even relevant when Vanguard receives more in securities lending than other fund families, making Vanguard's effective ER lower than the listed amount).

- Bullets 4 and 5 seem to be virtual duplicates:
"Fidelity offers commission free trades on individual stocks and ETF's" and "Fidelity offers no-commission trades on individual stocks and ETF's."
Replace them with one bullet.

- The old page had a bullet "Fidelity mutual funds do not share the same structure that allows Vanguard mutual funds to avoid distributing capital gains, which may have tax consequences for investors. Those investing in taxable accounts may wish to consider using the Vanguard or iShares ETFs instead."
but that info is gone in the new page. Knowing that point of distinction is important. I suggest either:
1. putting it in your new section "Fidelity vs Vanguard vs Schwab Index Funds" (the point also applies to Schwab or any non-Vanguard fund).
2. putting it the new section "General Strategy for Boglehead-style investing" as "If one prefers strictly mutual funds over ETFs in taxable accounts, consider using Vanguard index mutual funds because they have a patented structure that allows them to avoid distributing capital gains, which may have tax consequences for investors."


3. In section "HSA, 529 and ABLE Accounts":
- I would remove "529" from that header; 529 pros and cons are more determined at the state/plan level than by the fund providers. Many of the top-rated plans offer funds from more than just one provider (e.g., DFA, Vanguard, Fidelity, etc.).

That said, what's your basis for saying "Fidelity has arguably the most compelling offering in the industry" for 529 programs? Ditto for ABLE accounts? (I don't know at all about ABLE, so I have no comment.)

- for HSA accounts, I would agree that Fidelity's is compelling. As a reference for that, I'd link to
https://www.morningstar.com/articles/94 ... -providers "Our 2019 Rankings of 11 Top HSA Providers" from Morningstar
and viewtopic.php?t=263661 "[Fidelity Health Savings Account Mega-Thread]"


4. Couple of typos. Change "it's" to "its" in the following:
- first paragraph, "first brokers to combine it's Institutional Premium class funds..."
- secton "Tools for Boglehead-style investing", bullet 6 "Fidelity eliminated the minimum investment requirement on all it's mutual funds..."

Comments welcome! Thanks for you work on this.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:30 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:43 am
lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:15 am
I started working on updated to the Fidelity wiki page and looking for some initial feedback. Keep in mind it is still a work in progress.

Draft:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor

Original:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity
Hi Lexor, great start! However, please remove some of the editorializing and keep to citable facts. For example, Fidelity is not necessarily Vanguard's biggest competitor (one could argue by assets it's BlackRock). Opinions like below are not necessary. You can start whole post arguing about it. Good be fun... :twisted:
Fidelity's offering is more tailored to the Boglehead philosophy than even Vanguard
"Vanguard's biggest competitor in recent years" was from the old version - I did make it a little stronger of a statement though - but I think that it is true in that they are the most like Vanguard with Schwab also being similar (that is low cost index fund providers)

I will work on making it more factual and less editorialized
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
danielc
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Iowa, USA
Contact:

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by danielc » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:56 pm

Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:31 am
I liked the old chart comparing Fidelity, Vanguard, and Schwab index funds by category.

Many Fidelity index funds are less expensive than Vanguard Admiral Shares.

Rick Ferri
+1

I also vote to bring back the old table comparing Fidelity, Vanguard, and Schwab.

User avatar
danielc
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Iowa, USA
Contact:

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by danielc » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:02 pm

Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:46 am
Rather than have the table in the Fidelity page, maybe give the table it's own separate page and reference that page from the Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. That way you only have to keep one table up to date:

Boglehead-type index funds by investment type and issuer.
Even better, you can have one wiki page with just the table, and inject that page into the individual pages for Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. It's called "transclusion":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Transclusion

So you'd make a page called "Fund_Comparison_Table" and just type "{{Fund_Comparison_Table}}" in the individual pages for Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard.

mervinj7
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by mervinj7 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:10 pm

danielc wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:02 pm
Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:46 am
Rather than have the table in the Fidelity page, maybe give the table it's own separate page and reference that page from the Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. That way you only have to keep one table up to date:

Boglehead-type index funds by investment type and issuer.
Even better, you can have one wiki page with just the table, and inject that page into the individual pages for Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. It's called "transclusion":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Transclusion

So you'd make a page called "Fund_Comparison_Table" and just type "{{Fund_Comparison_Table}}" in the individual pages for Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard.
Fantastic. Didn't even know that was an option.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:27 pm

sycamore wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:51 pm
Lexor,

I'm a new wiki editor, so pardon if I just dump all this here. I'll be more than happy to make the edits myself, just wanted it to discuss first.

Overall I think you've done some helpful updates.

1. In the company sidebar, there's the Headquarters location and a list of "with offices in". What kind of office is that a list of?
It doesn't appear to the same branch locations from https://www.fidelity.com/branches/branch-locations.
I'm not opposed to a list, but my gut feel is it's better to provide only a link to the Fidelity web page of locations so we don't have keep our list up-to-date.


2. In section "Tools for Boglehead-style investing":
- In the first bullet: "Fidelity offers the lowest expense ratios in the industry, well below Vanguard"
I would change it to "even lower than Vanguard" because "well below" is somewhat subjective (there are debates about whether 2 basis points is even relevant when Vanguard receives more in securities lending than other fund families, making Vanguard's effective ER lower than the listed amount).

- Bullets 4 and 5 seem to be virtual duplicates:
"Fidelity offers commission free trades on individual stocks and ETF's" and "Fidelity offers no-commission trades on individual stocks and ETF's."
Replace them with one bullet.

- The old page had a bullet "Fidelity mutual funds do not share the same structure that allows Vanguard mutual funds to avoid distributing capital gains, which may have tax consequences for investors. Those investing in taxable accounts may wish to consider using the Vanguard or iShares ETFs instead."
but that info is gone in the new page. Knowing that point of distinction is important. I suggest either:
1. putting it in your new section "Fidelity vs Vanguard vs Schwab Index Funds" (the point also applies to Schwab or any non-Vanguard fund).
2. putting it the new section "General Strategy for Boglehead-style investing" as "If one prefers strictly mutual funds over ETFs in taxable accounts, consider using Vanguard index mutual funds because they have a patented structure that allows them to avoid distributing capital gains, which may have tax consequences for investors."


3. In section "HSA, 529 and ABLE Accounts":
- I would remove "529" from that header; 529 pros and cons are more determined at the state/plan level than by the fund providers. Many of the top-rated plans offer funds from more than just one provider (e.g., DFA, Vanguard, Fidelity, etc.).

That said, what's your basis for saying "Fidelity has arguably the most compelling offering in the industry" for 529 programs? Ditto for ABLE accounts? (I don't know at all about ABLE, so I have no comment.)

- for HSA accounts, I would agree that Fidelity's is compelling. As a reference for that, I'd link to
https://www.morningstar.com/articles/94 ... -providers "Our 2019 Rankings of 11 Top HSA Providers" from Morningstar
and viewtopic.php?t=263661 "[Fidelity Health Savings Account Mega-Thread]"


4. Couple of typos. Change "it's" to "its" in the following:
- first paragraph, "first brokers to combine it's Institutional Premium class funds..."
- secton "Tools for Boglehead-style investing", bullet 6 "Fidelity eliminated the minimum investment requirement on all it's mutual funds..."

Comments welcome! Thanks for you work on this.
1. Yes I was probably a little sloppy with what types of offices they are. Feel free to fix this if you have the time.
2. This was actually from the prior version of the wiki. I think I will add hard numbers instead by adding some example cost differences with lazy portfolios. How's that sound?
3. I removed 529 I only added it because it has some things in common with ABLE. I will have to find a source for the statement on ABLE, but many states charge .4% plus and monthly fees on ABLE accounts. For example in PA you can get a state tax deduction if you use the PA ABLE, but the fees are so high it's not even worth it. It's a racket for state funding honestly.
4. Updated.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:28 pm

Uh does anyone like my new table for anything? :( I'm still playing with different formats and have added some category info back in.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:03 pm

sycamore wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:26 pm
Regarding the table:

1. I, too, prefer keeping the categories. I don't know enough about editing tables in a wiki to know if you can have row "categories" like that and still sort the table by column like you have in the new page. I like the sortablilty you added, very nice!

2. I like the old table's "Index Tracked" column though keeping it will make the table even wider than now. Presumably that column was added for a reason in the first place, so I think we should keep it.

3. Using 3 significant digits for every ER just looks odd. Only use that last digit if necessary, like for 0.015%. If the ER ends in 0 (like 0.050%), only show 0.05%.
1. Thanks! I added cateogries back in.
2. Agreed...I think this may be hard to fit back in though. Still thinking on this.
3. Haven't gotten to this yet but will give it a try
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:04 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:30 pm
lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:59 am
Rick Ferri wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:46 am
Rather than have the table in the Fidelity page, maybe give the table it's own separate page and reference that page from the Fidelity, Schwab, and Vanguard. That way you only have to keep one table up to date:

Boglehead-type index funds by investment type and issuer.
Good idea I will try that.
I also prefer the old layout with funds separated by categories (e.g. bonds, international) since that's how folks will generally choose them. Otherwise, it's just a unwieldy list. You can change the highlight from always being Vanguard to the fund with the lowest ER. Though, many would argue that tax efficiency should also be a consideration when comparing costs.
Categories are back! Going to try adding sub categories now like Mid Cap, etc.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:31 pm

I'm thinking I might split Stocks and Bonds into separate tables so I can remove the "Category" column. Need to take a break though.... Will try to eventually get back to things other than the table, but I still need to do the ETF table. I'm hoping people will like them in the end but if not I'll keep them on my private page or something
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
Peculiar_Investor
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:23 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Peculiar_Investor » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:31 am

lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:15 am
I started working on updated to the Fidelity wiki page and looking for some initial feedback. Keep in mind it is still a work in progress.

Draft:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor

Original:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity
The draft page has been moved to https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor/Fidelity for consistency with wiki user page standards.
Normal people… believe that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet. – Scott Adams

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:32 am

Peculiar_Investor wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:31 am
lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:15 am
I started working on updated to the Fidelity wiki page and looking for some initial feedback. Keep in mind it is still a work in progress.

Draft:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor

Original:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity
The draft page has been moved to https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor/Fidelity for consistency with wiki user page standards.
Updated it above too now.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

sycamore
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by sycamore » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:18 pm

Replies below in blue:
lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:27 pm
1. Yes I was probably a little sloppy with what types of offices they are. Feel free to fix this if you have the time.
I changed "offices" to regional offices, at least that's what they're called here https://www.fidelity.com/about-fidelity/overview

2. This was actually from the prior version of the wiki. I think I will add hard numbers instead by adding some example cost differences with lazy portfolios. How's that sound?
Sounds good to me. Also, in that same section, I removed one of the two bullets that were virtual duplicates.

3. I removed 529 I only added it because it has some things in common with ABLE. I will have to find a source for the statement on ABLE, but many states charge .4% plus and monthly fees on ABLE accounts. For example in PA you can get a state tax deduction if you use the PA ABLE, but the fees are so high it's not even worth it. It's a racket for state funding honestly.
Bummer that ABLE account fees are high :(

4. Updated.
And verified :)

snailderby
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by snailderby » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:32 am

Is it worth mentioning the ability to use Fidelity as a one stop shop in the wiki page? I believe that's one reason why many posters prefer Fidelity over other brokerages.

Or maybe we can just link to https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity:_one_stop_shop.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:53 am

snailderby wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:32 am
Is it worth mentioning the ability to use Fidelity as a one stop shop in the wiki page? I believe that's one reason why many posters prefer Fidelity over other brokerages.

Or maybe we can just link to https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Fidelity:_one_stop_shop.
Yes, I agree this should be included. Feel free to add it or I will.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:57 am

sycamore wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Replies below in blue:
lexor wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:27 pm
1. Yes I was probably a little sloppy with what types of offices they are. Feel free to fix this if you have the time.
I changed "offices" to regional offices, at least that's what they're called here https://www.fidelity.com/about-fidelity/overview

2. This was actually from the prior version of the wiki. I think I will add hard numbers instead by adding some example cost differences with lazy portfolios. How's that sound?
Sounds good to me. Also, in that same section, I removed one of the two bullets that were virtual duplicates.

3. I removed 529 I only added it because it has some things in common with ABLE. I will have to find a source for the statement on ABLE, but many states charge .4% plus and monthly fees on ABLE accounts. For example in PA you can get a state tax deduction if you use the PA ABLE, but the fees are so high it's not even worth it. It's a racket for state funding honestly.
Bummer that ABLE account fees are high :(

4. Updated.
And verified :)
Thank you.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm

Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 17305
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm

lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
You omit all fixed allocation balanced funds.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 pm

ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
You omit all fixed allocation balanced funds.
I know - I was actually about to add them but wanted to see if people like the format first
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 17305
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by ruralavalon » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:32 am

lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
You omit all fixed allocation balanced funds.
I know - I was actually about to add them but wanted to see if people like the format first
I prefer the existing format, link, less cluttered and easier to read, and including the different indexes used.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

User avatar
Barry Barnitz
Wiki Admin
Posts: 3190
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:42 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Barry Barnitz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:08 pm

ruralavalon wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:32 am
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
You omit all fixed allocation balanced funds.
I know - I was actually about to add them but wanted to see if people like the format first
I prefer the existing format, link, less cluttered and easier to read, and including the different indexes used.
Here is a revised version of the table, placing the lower-cost Fidelity funds atop the list:

Revised table

regards
Additional administrative tasks: Financial Page affiliate blog; finiki the Canadian wiki; The Bogle Center for Financial Literacy site; Wiki Bogleheads® España.

SciurusVulgaris
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by SciurusVulgaris » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:22 pm

It may be useful to list the dividend payout schedules for each fund. For example, as I understand it FZROX holds onto dividends and pays out in December while VTSAX pays out quarterly. Assuming dividends are reinvested, this would make a difference in returns that isn't obvious from looking only at the expense ratio.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:14 pm

SciurusVulgaris wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:22 pm
It may be useful to list the dividend payout schedules for each fund. For example, as I understand it FZROX holds onto dividends and pays out in December while VTSAX pays out quarterly. Assuming dividends are reinvested, this would make a difference in returns that isn't obvious from looking only at the expense ratio.
It wouldn't make a difference in returns. That theory was debunked here: viewtopic.php?p=4828130#p4827958

It could be useful to know schedules if you're not re-investing dividends and want to move the money somewhere else right after each dividend.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:14 pm

Barry Barnitz wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:08 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:32 am
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
You omit all fixed allocation balanced funds.
I know - I was actually about to add them but wanted to see if people like the format first
I prefer the existing format, link, less cluttered and easier to read, and including the different indexes used.
Here is a revised version of the table, placing the lower-cost Fidelity funds atop the list:

Revised table

regards
Thanks...I was not looking forward to updating the table and it sounds like I need to admit defeat. I've added your table to my draft https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Lexor/Fidelity
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
Barry Barnitz
Wiki Admin
Posts: 3190
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:42 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Barry Barnitz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:37 pm

Hi lexor:

I added Schwab funds to the table and bolded lowest expense ratios so that the table matches the descriptive text.

regards,
Additional administrative tasks: Financial Page affiliate blog; finiki the Canadian wiki; The Bogle Center for Financial Literacy site; Wiki Bogleheads® España.

UpperNwGuy
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by UpperNwGuy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:36 pm

The table is missing one of Fidelity's four zero funds: FNILX Fidelity ZERO Large Cap Index Fund.

User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 17305
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by ruralavalon » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:17 pm

Barry Barnitz wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:08 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:32 am
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:47 pm
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm
lexor wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm
Are the tables growing on people or should I scrap them? https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... ndex_Funds

I've updated them to separate stocks, bonds and balanced funds and the plan would be to move these tables to their own wiki page and embed it in the pages of the various brokers.
You omit all fixed allocation balanced funds.
I know - I was actually about to add them but wanted to see if people like the format first
I prefer the existing format, link, less cluttered and easier to read, and including the different indexes used.
Here is a revised version of the table, placing the lower-cost Fidelity funds atop the list:

Revised table

regards
I like the revised table.

Regarding Fidelity International Index Fund (FSPSX) I believe the MSCI EAFE also excludes both emerging markets and Canada.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

SciurusVulgaris
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:48 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by SciurusVulgaris » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:16 pm

lexor wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:14 pm
It wouldn't make a difference in returns. That theory was debunked here: viewtopic.php?p=4828130#p4827958

It could be useful to know schedules if you're not re-investing dividends and want to move the money somewhere else right after each dividend.
Ah, I had thought that they held the dividends in cash, not reinvested. Knowing the dividend schedule is then much less useful in the table. I withdraw my suggestion.

User avatar
RootSki
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:52 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by RootSki » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm

Awesome job :sharebeer. Thank you.

Why did you not include FNILX or FSPGX as other Large Cap index funds in the table? I realize there’s overlap with the S&P 500, but they are still good low cost available index funds.

User avatar
Barry Barnitz
Wiki Admin
Posts: 3190
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:42 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Barry Barnitz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:24 pm

RootSki wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
Awesome job :sharebeer. Thank you.

Why did you not include FNILX or FSPGX as other Large Cap index funds in the table? I realize there’s overlap with the S&P 500, but they are still good low cost available index funds.

Added Large Cap Index segment to the table: User:Lexor/Fidelity#Index_Funds.

regards,
Additional administrative tasks: Financial Page affiliate blog; finiki the Canadian wiki; The Bogle Center for Financial Literacy site; Wiki Bogleheads® España.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:25 pm

Barry Barnitz wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:24 pm
RootSki wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
Awesome job :sharebeer. Thank you.

Why did you not include FNILX or FSPGX as other Large Cap index funds in the table? I realize there’s overlap with the S&P 500, but they are still good low cost available index funds.

Added Large Cap Index segment to the table: User:Lexor/Fidelity#Index_Funds.

regards,
Thank you. There is also large, mid and small value and growth. Should that be a separate table labeled tilt funds or would you all rather throw them in with the main table?
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

User avatar
RootSki
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:52 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by RootSki » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:23 pm

Barry Barnitz wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:24 pm
RootSki wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
Awesome job :sharebeer. Thank you.

Why did you not include FNILX or FSPGX as other Large Cap index funds in the table? I realize there’s overlap with the S&P 500, but they are still good low cost available index funds.

Added Large Cap Index segment to the table: User:Lexor/Fidelity#Index_Funds.

regards,
Wow! Thanks Barry :thumbsup

User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 7250
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by whodidntante » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:47 pm

If you're not tuckered out, I think the Fidelity Cash Management account would be worth a write-up in this treatise of the ways that Fidelity is better than Vanguard. :twisted:

User avatar
Barry Barnitz
Wiki Admin
Posts: 3190
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:42 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Barry Barnitz » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:52 am

Hi:

Added Growth and Value: User:Lexor/Fidelity.

regards,
Additional administrative tasks: Financial Page affiliate blog; finiki the Canadian wiki; The Bogle Center for Financial Literacy site; Wiki Bogleheads® España.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:38 pm

Barry Barnitz wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:52 am
Hi:

Added Growth and Value: User:Lexor/Fidelity.

regards,
Awesome! :sharebeer
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Sage16
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:06 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by Sage16 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:04 am

Thank you for updating the Wiki, the information is very useful and I appreciate the time you spent updating it.

2 suggestions for additional content.
Many Bogleheads have commented that they have consolidated their banking with their other accounts at Fidelity and as mentioned earlier the Cash Management Account and also the 2% Cash Back Credit Card are 2 features that Fidelity offers that not all others have.
The other item, although not index funds but I think is important is adding in the Money Market Funds. I think that is an important thing to point out that Fidelity ER's are higher than Vanguard and don't yield as much so there is a consideration when deciding where to locate your funds.
Bogle on investing: Diversify, focus on low costs, invest for the long term. Don't speculate and don't be distracted by volatility.

User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 17305
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by ruralavalon » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:27 am

Sage16 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:04 am
Thank you for updating the Wiki, the information is very useful and I appreciate the time you spent updating it.

2 suggestions for additional content.
Many Bogleheads have commented that they have consolidated their banking with their other accounts at Fidelity and as mentioned earlier the Cash Management Account and also the 2% Cash Back Credit Card are 2 features that Fidelity offers that not all others have.
The other item, although not index funds but I think is important is adding in the Money Market Funds. I think that is an important thing to point out that Fidelity ER's are higher than Vanguard and don't yield as much so there is a consideration when deciding where to locate your funds.
I agree that it's important to add the information that Vanguard money market funds offer the better yield than Fidelity funds, this is important to investors who wish to have a significant cash allocation.

I suggest also adding that Vanguard funds are more tax-efficient than Fidelity funds.

I also suggest eliminating argument and expense opinion, such as the word "well" in this reference to expenses "This resulted in individual investors having access to funds with extremely low expense ratios, well below what is available to individual investors at Vanguard, . . . " Many argue that the difference in expense ratios is tiny and not significant.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

User avatar
nedsaid
Posts: 13008
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by nedsaid » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:09 pm

Excellent work on the Wiki, thank you.
A fool and his money are good for business.

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:33 pm

I have updated:

1. The cost comparison to reference actual example costs and my post Cost Matters 2020 and added securities lending information citing Morningstar. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... _investing
2. The tax efficiency of mutual funds https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/User:Le ... _investing
3. Removed where I mistakenly wrote that ITOT was more tax efficient than VTI.

I plan to add banking features and have been reading about those as I don't use them personally. One question I had was does either Fidelity or Schwab allow you to use a bond index fund for overdraft protection?
Last edited by lexor on Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Topic Author
lexor
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Fidelity Wiki Page Updates Initial Review

Post by lexor » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:34 pm

nedsaid wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:09 pm
Excellent work on the Wiki, thank you.
:sharebeer
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Post Reply