Hedonic Clock

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
manatee2005
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by manatee2005 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
I read of this concept, maybe I'll improvise it.

Given frugal saving in early years, one achieves FIRE by the time of (insert your magic age number here with x25~x50 annual expense).

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
I know what you mean. I was pretty fit and good looking when I was 20. Now that I have actual money to enjoy myself, I am old, fat and ugly. It's one of the cruelties of life.

Starfish
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Starfish » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:57 pm

Depending on the activity, money spend while young are a lot more valuable (that is one extracts a lot more value from it) than money spend when old.
There are several factors for this: physical health/energy, mental state (enthusiasm, curiosity etc) but also satisfaction with cheaper things when young. You have to discount later money by a factor (a pretty aggressive one for most people) that takes in account all these.

For example if you like to travel, you can do it both much cheaper while young (for almost 0 if necessary), cover more terrain and do more interesting things with more pleasure and enthusiasm.

Then there is the income: usually the income raises so what you can save when young is not much by comparison even if you add the time value.
Bogleheads is a forum oriented on financial decisions and not on quality of life decisions. Your mission as a person is to maximize the total quality of your life, not to be the richest you can be. A lot of people seem to miss this point.

Starfish
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Starfish » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 pm

theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
The reason for FIRE is not because you dislike your career but because you enjoy other things too.
I like what I do but I also have a huge list of things I would like to do in this life. It is actually too long to be realistically possible to exhaust it and some of them are an impossible (for me) trade off of physical fitness/courage and money. But would be very happy if I could do at least a part of it.
While I like what i do at work, if it was only based on pure interest and pleasure I would have not dedicated such a large part of my precious years to my work.

visualguy
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by visualguy » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:31 pm

Starfish wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:57 pm
Depending on the activity, money spend while young are a lot more valuable (that is one extracts a lot more value from it) than money spend when old.
There are several factors for this: physical health/energy, mental state (enthusiasm, curiosity etc) but also satisfaction with cheaper things when young. You have to discount later money by a factor (a pretty aggressive one for most people) that takes in account all these.
This applies not just to leisure-related spending. In general, money makes a lot more difference when young than when older because it can still change the course of your life for the better when you're young, while you've already lived your life when you're older, and compromises made due to lack of money cannot be reversed anymore. This is the reason I believe in helping kids financially in early adulthood (education, housing, etc.) - that's the time to make a difference.

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willthrill81
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:37 pm

Starfish wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 pm
theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
The reason for FIRE is not because you dislike your career but because you enjoy other things too.
I like what I do but I also have a huge list of things I would like to do in this life. It is actually too long to be realistically possible to exhaust it and some of them are an impossible (for me) trade off of physical fitness/courage and money. But would be very happy if I could do at least a part of it.
While I like what i do at work, if it was only based on pure interest and pleasure I would have not dedicated such a large part of my precious years to my work.
My sentiments exactly as well.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Normchad
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Normchad » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:39 pm

I think the FIRE crowd is wildly over represented online and in the media. I just don’t think there are that many people actually doing it.

A lot of people like to talk about, and dream about it. Somewhat akin to winning the lottery. But I doubt many are actually trying to do it. And of those trying it, I don’t think it will last long.

Personally, I see just the opposite. People making six figures, living paycheck to paycheck.

And among the 20 somethings I know, they really do have life figured out. The have good jobs and careers, but aren’t slaves to them. A lot of them travel internationally. They really do make the best of their time.

As for me, I work because they pay me. I do like my job a lot, but if they stopped paying me, I wouldn’t go anymore. So I’d be happy to retire early. And hey, if there isn’t anything you can think of that you enjoy more than your job, that’s either really awesome, or really sad.

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Cubicle
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Cubicle » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:39 pm

Comment on FIRE: For me, I want FI so I could RE. Not needing to work is my current goal. Fortunately I love my career. After FI, I plan to keep working just so I can keep growing my account balances.

As for doing things while young, I think the youths commonly says "YOLO", you only live once. I don't subscribe to this "throw caution to the wind", "the future isn't now" mentality. But there must be balance.

I've always eaten my vegetables first so I could enjoy my dessert uninterrupted. I'm admittedly boring now, my accumulation phase. I am slowly warming up to things I want to do later. And if I get hut by a bus on the way to the airport in 20 years, the money is earmarked to causes that will make me proud.

Eh...

Starfish
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Starfish » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:50 am

visualguy wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:31 pm
Starfish wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:57 pm
Depending on the activity, money spend while young are a lot more valuable (that is one extracts a lot more value from it) than money spend when old.
There are several factors for this: physical health/energy, mental state (enthusiasm, curiosity etc) but also satisfaction with cheaper things when young. You have to discount later money by a factor (a pretty aggressive one for most people) that takes in account all these.
This applies not just to leisure-related spending. In general, money makes a lot more difference when young than when older because it can still change the course of your life for the better when you're young, while you've already lived your life when you're older, and compromises made due to lack of money cannot be reversed anymore. This is the reason I believe in helping kids financially in early adulthood (education, housing, etc.) - that's the time to make a difference.
This is an interesting point you don't see expressed so much around here. And I completely agree with it as I hit these problems directly in my youth (there were times in my life when 1-2000$ would have made an important difference over a lifetime, forget about much larger amounts like a down payment).
However, I don't know though how to balance this type of help with not spoiling the kids.

DonIce
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by DonIce » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:36 am

Meh, it's not that complicated. Spend money on the stuff that truly makes you happier, but don't waste it on stuff that doesn't make a difference. Spend some time getting to know yourself so you can tell between the two. Also, increasing your income is a far better way to financial security/independence than pinching pennies.

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JoeRetire
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:20 am

manatee2005 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm
I know what you mean. I was pretty fit and good looking when I was 20. Now that I have actual money to enjoy myself, I am old, fat and ugly. It's one of the cruelties of life.
So instead of railing against "the cruelties of life" - go out and get fit.
(You can't do much about the old and ugly part)
Very Stable Genius

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firebirdparts
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by firebirdparts » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:32 am

On the plus side, I find that I started out ugly, but now everybody else has deteriorated down more to my level.
A fool and your money are soon partners

chipperd
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by chipperd » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:56 am

You can retire more than once; early and often as some would say!

Nowizard
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Nowizard » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:37 am

Our experience is if you lead a balanced life and do not focus too heavily on saving every penny that you will be active during both your working days and during retirement. That is the way it works for us in retirement which has little change in leading a quite active life in our working days and now. Health is the key, and a balanced life during working days is/was a significant factor in being healthy in our 70"s, we feel. FIRE had not been invented when we retired, however.

Tim

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lock.that.stock
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by lock.that.stock » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:40 am

JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:20 am
manatee2005 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm
I know what you mean. I was pretty fit and good looking when I was 20. Now that I have actual money to enjoy myself, I am old, fat and ugly. It's one of the cruelties of life.
So instead of railing against "the cruelties of life" - go out and get fit.
(You can't do much about the old and ugly part)
Plastic surgeons would beg to differ! The work they can do these days is pretty impressive. Let’s start a BH Pec implants club. Who’s in. :mrgreen:

am
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by am » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:17 am

As money become plentiful here in middle age, other things have become disappointing. Constant awareness that time is ticking away and will end like it did for everyone else. That money is overrated after a certain point and doesn’t change much, buy what’s really important or fix most problems. Lower sex drive hurts. Also realized that if I leave my career, I don’t have much to do, so may have to keep working at least part time, but the stress of it is also not great. Expectations of kids, relatives, etc is not in keeping with reality. Best to keep it balanced throughout your life as someone else wrote. It may not all be wonderful when you hit your number later in life,

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Sandtrap
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:35 am

First Class Airline Travel . . . with the lay flat reclining seats. . .
A must . . . my hedonic clock is wearing out. . . :D

j :happy
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Sandtrap
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:37 am

am wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:17 am
As money become plentiful here in middle age, other things have become disappointing. Constant awareness that time is ticking away and will end like it did for everyone else. That money is overrated after a certain point and doesn’t change much, buy what’s really important or fix most problems. Lower sex drive hurts. Also realized that if I leave my career, I don’t have much to do, so may have to keep working at least part time, but the stress of it is also not great. Expectations of kids, relatives, etc is not in keeping with reality. Best to keep it balanced throughout your life as someone else wrote. It may not all be wonderful when you hit your number later in life,
+1
Astute points.
And, the priorities shift even more from middle to senior to . . . super senior. . . .

The hedonic clock is running out. . . expiration (use by) date looms nearer. :oops:

j :happy
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Ari
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Ari » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:00 am

I like the idea of getting to a basic level of FI, then start loosening the purse strings. Save a lot and get to either coast FI (where you probably don't need to add anything else in order to get a decent retirement at 65; you can just let compounding do the work), or lean FI (you could survive on 4%, but you'd have to really pinch your pennies). Then relax and start enjoying. I'm 36 and am at coast FI, coming up on lean FI in a year or so, depending on what Mr Market does. I have started to relax my frugality a bit and I'm thinking of starting to cut hours and extend my vacations starting this or next year. The idea is fewer hours when there's little work to be done, and taking two months vacations every summer and one month around Christmas/New Year's. It's tough to go home when I could stay and make more money, though. I get One More Hour syndrome.

I think it's a good idea to do some hardcore saving when young, though, as these contributions are worth more since they have a longer time to compound. So that's my advice. Spend a few years saving like crazy, then start loosening up. Keep saving, but at a lower level, and knowing that you're saving up for your discretionary retirement expenses, since you already covered the basics.

Another way to do it is to take "mini-retirements" once in a while, but I find it difficult to spend down my portfolio, selling off more than it can replenish on its own. If you can do that, though, saving up four years of expenses in four years, then spending one year of expenses in the fifth year. That'll have you saving three years of expenses in five years (plus whatever return you get in that time, of course), which is still a good savings rate. And working four years, then being retired one year sounds pretty good to me!
All in, all the time.

Snowjob
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Snowjob » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:18 am

LilyFleur wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:14 pm
btenny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm
Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.
Thanks for the advice! I got altitude sickness for several days hiking in Yosemite. I think I will pass on Manchu Picchu. But I am very happy for you :mrgreen:

The streets of Paris and art museums are more my dream. I've done that twice now... I don't have the energy for long flights to Europe and walking eight miles a day, as much as I did... Doing some reno on my place and thinking about travel for now. It's all good! I live in a vacation destination so perhaps I don't feel the urge to travel as much as folks who are getting away from snow and ice. I can be pretty happy with a walk in the sunshine on a local island, a bite out to eat, and a trip to a library with views of the ocean.
Machu picchu is a shade under 8,00 feet where as the highest points in Yosemite are a bit over 13,000 feet. I personally start to notice altitude around 11,000 and it becomes a problem around 13,000 for me, but everyone is different. I just missed my first 14er in Colorado last year as I struggled with nausea, dizziness and fatigue about 400 feet from the top and just decided that was enough for one day on my first attempt. Point is, you may actually be quite fine depending on how you did at other places. MP is not very high

Snowjob
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Snowjob » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:23 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:20 pm
btenny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm
Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.
Thanks for the reminder.
I've always wanted to visit Machu Picchu.
But, if I wait too many years, I'm going to need to charter a helicopter to land me up there.

j :happy
Well, the good news is if you really do wait “to long” you can take a train to the base and a bus to the top. It’s has that mount Washington tourist feel to it in that way. Hey I finally got here after x days and climbed all these steps in the dark to get there for sun rise! And the first thing I see as I emerge from the trail is a parking lot bathrooms and busses lol. Once you go through the gates it’s still really cool though

Snowjob
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Snowjob » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:32 am

I only got two weeks off a year in my 20s and the recession hit right in the middle. Most of my friends lost their jobs for a while so I kinda spent a lot of time saving, learning out investing and just hoping I’d survive long enough at my job to ride it out. By the time I hit 30 I started to get an increase in vacation time, the economy had recovered and I started prioritizing the present. I still have some old “bad” habits of over worrying about money or the job at times from those early experiences but I’m a big proponent of consumption smoothing and prioritizing activities today that my body won’t be able to handle decades down the road. Hard to stay present all the time but it’s definitely seems to be the best course for me.

BanquetBeer
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by BanquetBeer » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:29 am

Normchad wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:39 pm
...
Personally, I see just the opposite. People making six figures, living paycheck to paycheck.

And among the 20 somethings I know, they really do have life figured out. The have good jobs and careers, but aren’t slaves to them. A lot of them travel internationally. They really do make the best of their time.
...
I see a strong relationship here. If you swap the order, it could be the same person?

I read a lot about these topics and it seems only a small minority are living a impoverished life trying to save for FIRE. I just don’t see it frequently, maybe 1 post out of 100. And they are typically low earners who’s ‘living it up lifestyle’ wouldn’t be that excessive.

We all have different preferences. Some people’s best memories are at a 5 star hotel, others are camping with friends for $10/night. I’ve done both and enjoyed the camping more.

I would bet wasting money on things is way more common than living impoverished - but talking about how people deny themselves and die early is more to comfort those decisions than to try to convince the rare super saver?

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Sandtrap
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:20 am

Snowjob wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:23 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:20 pm
btenny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm
Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.
Thanks for the reminder.
I've always wanted to visit Machu Picchu.
But, if I wait too many years, I'm going to need to charter a helicopter to land me up there.

j :happy
Well, the good news is if you really do wait “to long” you can take a train to the base and a bus to the top. It’s has that mount Washington tourist feel to it in that way. Hey I finally got here after x days and climbed all these steps in the dark to get there for sun rise! And the first thing I see as I emerge from the trail is a parking lot bathrooms and busses lol. Once you go through the gates it’s still really cool though
Thanks!
I did not know this!
Ok. It's back on the "bucket list".

. . . . How far away is it from a Hilton Hotel???
j :D
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Caduceus
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Caduceus » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:38 am

You could time hedonistic activities - do those that would be better done now immediately, and save those you can do later for when you are older. Adventuring, hiking, stuff like that - I think you should do that now. If you want to spend $10,000 going on some dream trek through the wilds of New Zealand, definitely do it now and don't wait until you are 90. My Dad always dreamed of skiing but put it off for ages until he no longer was fit enough to do it. On the other hand, if you really want a Nile cruise, you can wait to do that.

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LilyFleur
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by LilyFleur » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:59 pm

Eight years ago I overcame my fear of heights, trained like a wild woman, and did a 7-day backpacking trip to the far reaches of Yosemite (it was amazing to be that far away from other people and to be immersed in nature.) I slept on a rock by a river under the stars one night...with my hiking boots on and my hiking pants tightened over my boots as there were ants on the rock! I told my hiking partner: no more sleeping under the stars--let's use the insect-proof tent :mrgreen:

These days I have trained to walk 8 miles a day in Paris, London, or Barcelona. I view it as a challenge to be able to keep up with the 22-somethings in my family, but I do need to rest occasionally.

I have looked at touring buses with disdain, but when my feet are hurting, I realize a touring bus may be in my future :mrgreen:

Do not go gentle into that good night - Dylan Thomas

WhyNotUs
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by WhyNotUs » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:36 pm

There are fun things and adventures to do for every budget. From car camping and biking to international travel, start now.
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX

MoneyMarathon
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:52 pm

Way more interested in FI than in RE. Would be nice to spend time just building out my own ideas (software engineer).

Unladen_Swallow
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Unladen_Swallow » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:09 pm

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
I read of this concept, maybe I'll improvise it.

Given frugal saving in early years, one achieves FIRE by the time of (insert your magic age number here with x25~x50 annual expense).

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
Keep saving, yes. But no need to be frugal unless that is the only way you can save anything.

Frugality is not a virtue to be pursued for it's own sake. I wouldn't put off leisure pursuits until one retires. Let me say again - it should not come at the expense of reasonable savings, but no need to be a monk until retirement. Find ways to enjoy without breaking the bank.

I also dont think 50s is late. I find that a resignational view. If anything, one must aim to increase activity well into the 60s.

I value travel over every other indulgence. I travel solo, with spouse, and with friends. My regret is that when I was in my 20s and early 30s I did not understand that travel could be done inexpensively. I wasn't as bold as I should have been. The money needed would not have killed me, but it would have provided so much value that I would have found ways to accomplish it.

I am almost 45. I am a few years away from what I hope to be early retirement. I am traveling more and more each year. When we both retire at 50, we intend to crank it up. Becoming FI is good. That opens up a whole world of possibilities. It allows for leisure sooner.
"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

Snowjob
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Snowjob » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:31 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:20 am
Snowjob wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:23 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:20 pm
btenny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm
Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.
Thanks for the reminder.
I've always wanted to visit Machu Picchu.
But, if I wait too many years, I'm going to need to charter a helicopter to land me up there.

j :happy
Well, the good news is if you really do wait “to long” you can take a train to the base and a bus to the top. It’s has that mount Washington tourist feel to it in that way. Hey I finally got here after x days and climbed all these steps in the dark to get there for sun rise! And the first thing I see as I emerge from the trail is a parking lot bathrooms and busses lol. Once you go through the gates it’s still really cool though
Thanks!
I did not know this!
Ok. It's back on the "bucket list".

. . . . How far away is it from a Hilton Hotel???
j :D
Plenty of restaurants and places to stay right at the bottom. I don’t recall if there were commercial brand hotels and I do remember the beds I had in Peru were on the hard side in general but rest assured you will be comfortable enough right there haha

Snowjob
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Snowjob » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:34 pm

LilyFleur wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:59 pm
Eight years ago I overcame my fear of heights, trained like a wild woman, and did a 7-day backpacking trip to the far reaches of Yosemite (it was amazing to be that far away from other people and to be immersed in nature.) I slept on a rock by a river under the stars one night...with my hiking boots on and my hiking pants tightened over my boots as there were ants on the rock! I told my hiking partner: no more sleeping under the stars--let's use the insect-proof tent :mrgreen:

These days I have trained to walk 8 miles a day in Paris, London, or Barcelona. I view it as a challenge to be able to keep up with the 22-somethings in my family, but I do need to rest occasionally.

I have looked at touring buses with disdain, but when my feet are hurting, I realize a touring bus may be in my future :mrgreen:

Do not go gentle into that good night - Dylan Thomas
Good for you, sounds like your doing it right. And I agree, tents are way better cause of insects — just ditch the two fly if the top is all mesh it’s still nice!

visualguy
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by visualguy » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:35 pm

Unladen_Swallow wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:09 pm
I also dont think 50s is late. I find that a resignational view. If anything, one must aim to increase activity well into the 60s.
Hard to aim when your hand is shaking, your knee is wobbling, and your hip is hurting :wink:

Seriously, this varies a lot among people - I wouldn't generalize. What I've observed in family and others is a gradual decline which is definitely felt in the 50s, but isn't too bad. Then there's a sudden acceleration of aging effects which really varies in its onset quite a lot from person to person, almost like some kind of a personal biological clock that gets triggered.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in packing as much as you can as early as you can if it involves physical activity. Later on, who knows - you may get lucky or not. Do your strenuous travel when young if possible and you love it, even if it's not the best timing from a financial perspective, and even if you would have to work a bit longer later.

Unladen_Swallow
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Unladen_Swallow » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:46 pm

visualguy wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:35 pm
Unladen_Swallow wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:09 pm
I also dont think 50s is late. I find that a resignational view. If anything, one must aim to increase activity well into the 60s.
Hard to aim when your hand is shaking, your knee is wobbling, and your hip is hurting :wink:

Seriously, this varies a lot among people - I wouldn't generalize.
What I've observed in family and others is a gradual decline which is definitely felt in the 50s, but isn't too bad. Then there's a sudden acceleration of aging effects which really varies in its onset quite a lot from person to person, almost like some kind of a personal biological clock that gets triggered.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in packing as much as you can as early as you can if it involves physical activity. Later on, who knows - you may get lucky or not. Do your strenuous travel when young if possible and if you love it, even if it's not the best timing from a financial perspective, and even if you would have to work a bit longer later.
I agree with you there, in more ways than one. I don't mean to generalize. What I am talking about is a philosophical approach.

But there is a lot of value (especially when young) to look forward to ones 50s as vibrant rather than pessimism. And this might require a holistic approach from youth. Diet, activity, low stress, and gratefulness. 50s is young.

And I agree with you in travel when young. If things don't work out later, so be it. But I will submit to you that traveling when young will actually keep you vibrant enough to also travel when older. It is an all round winner.
"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

manatee2005
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by manatee2005 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:40 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:20 am
manatee2005 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm
I know what you mean. I was pretty fit and good looking when I was 20. Now that I have actual money to enjoy myself, I am old, fat and ugly. It's one of the cruelties of life.
So instead of railing against "the cruelties of life" - go out and get fit.
(You can't do much about the old and ugly part)
Everything hurts.

bad1bill
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by bad1bill » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:05 pm

I'm almost 69. I skied with my 30 YO son in 12" of powder last weekend and kept up just fine. I'm cat skiing in Canada in a month for the 7th year in a row. I just got back from a trip to Colombia where we walked 10 miles most days through Bogota, Medellin, and Tayrona NP. I mountain bike in the summer plenty and road bike as well. My wife is 65, walks 6 miles a day to stay in shape and rides her horse 4 days a week. Most of our friends are the same age and in similar shape.

We both still work, BTW, at jobs we generally love (life always you throws you s**t sandwiches) although I'm retiring or moving to 1/2 time when I turn 70 and wife is nearing retirement as well. Yes, we saved lots when we were young but we stuck near to home so the kids could play sports, hang with friends, get good grades, etc. And we didn't have the income we now have....

Eat well, get regular exercise, pay attention to your health signs and sleep. I loved my 60's and look forward to the next decade. You can get run over by a truck whether you are 30 or 80.....

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JoeRetire
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:11 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:40 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:20 am
manatee2005 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm
I know what you mean. I was pretty fit and good looking when I was 20. Now that I have actual money to enjoy myself, I am old, fat and ugly. It's one of the cruelties of life.
So instead of railing against "the cruelties of life" - go out and get fit.
(You can't do much about the old and ugly part)
Everything hurts.
I'm sure you've heard of the saying "no pain, no gain". Well, it's not exactly true. Momentum (or lack thereof) is probably more relevant. If you wanted to, you could find something to help you get fit with little pain. "Want to" is the key factor.

I used to play a lot of tennis when I was a kid. My knees and ankles don't let me do that these days. But I play pickleball three days a week, and take long walks or bike rides the other days (weather permitting). I'm not saying I'm in excellent shape - I'm just working on it.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Very Stable Genius

BanquetBeer
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by BanquetBeer » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:13 pm

In my family, hip and knee replacements seem to hit mid 60s. Not sure how diet and exercise can resolve that. Family is very fit.

bad1bill
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by bad1bill » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:30 pm

And we did Peru, the Sacred Valley and Machu Picchu 2 years ago. Hiked, mountain biked and rode horses all around Olantaytumbo (incredible trip) and other places in the Valley including 2-day 25 mile overnight backpacking trip . Daughter and I did a backpacker-style trip from Cuzco to Lake Titicaca to La Paz before the Peru stuff. I'm planning on staying active til I can't....

The point is, if you take care of yourself, you can do almost ALL of this "hedonic" stuff for a long time...AND you have the benefit of wisdom that comes with countless life experiences.

visualguy
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by visualguy » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:41 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:11 pm
I used to play a lot of tennis when I was a kid. My knees and ankles don't let me do that these days. But I play pickleball three days a week, and take long walks or bike rides the other days (weather permitting). I'm not saying I'm in excellent shape - I'm just working on it.
Watch out for bike rides - just friendly advice. A bike fall is a common way to get a significant injury of one kind or another. Seen it too many times, and experienced it myself - decided to stop it even though I love bicycling.

latesaver
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by latesaver » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:46 pm

theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
In more ways than one, very well put. And that comes from someone that doesn't particularly like their job or the people with whom they work.

h82goslw
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by h82goslw » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:01 pm

bad1bill wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:30 pm
And we did Peru, the Sacred Valley and Machu Picchu 2 years ago. Hiked, mountain biked and rode horses all around Olantaytumbo (incredible trip) and other places in the Valley including 2-day 25 mile overnight backpacking trip . Daughter and I did a backpacker-style trip from Cuzco to Lake Titicaca to La Paz before the Peru stuff. I'm planning on staying active til I can't....

The point is, if you take care of yourself, you can do almost ALL of this "hedonic" stuff for a long time...AND you have the benefit of wisdom that comes with countless life experiences.
I pray that I can do the things you’ve done....as soon as I’m done paying for my kids’ college...which makes me about 57. Thanks for your posts as they’re inspiring.

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JoeRetire
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by JoeRetire » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:39 am

visualguy wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:41 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:11 pm
I used to play a lot of tennis when I was a kid. My knees and ankles don't let me do that these days. But I play pickleball three days a week, and take long walks or bike rides the other days (weather permitting). I'm not saying I'm in excellent shape - I'm just working on it.
Watch out for bike rides - just friendly advice. A bike fall is a common way to get a significant injury of one kind or another. Seen it too many times, and experienced it myself - decided to stop it even though I love bicycling.
Thanks, but I'm fine riding my bike. I'm not worried about falling at all. And I always wear my helmet.
Now my wife is still having trouble with her "dismount", but she's working on it. :D
Very Stable Genius

Ari
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Ari » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:37 am

theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.
There are many things one can feel passionate about. For some of us, our passions are not the same things as the things people are willing to pay us money for. I love language learning, and it's hard to get people to pay me to learn languages. Teach, sure (though it doesn't pay very well), but that's far from the same thing. I also like writing tabletop roleplaying games (in a particular, small niche of the RPG market, too). There's no way I could make a living doing that, especially if I don't write in English (which I don't want to do). Not everyone can get people to pay them for doing what they love.
All in, all the time.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:15 am

manatee2005 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm
I know what you mean. I was pretty fit and good looking when I was 20. Now that I have actual money to enjoy myself, I am old, fat and ugly. It's one of the cruelties of life.
There may come a time where declining health, disabilities, or cognitive decline, limits our ability to spend hard earned wealth.
But, what is most meaningful in life has no price tag and can't be bought.

Fat can be fixed.
Old is a state of mind and countered with vitality.
Ugly is relative. :shock:

j :happy
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

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Sandtrap
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:16 am

bad1bill wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:30 pm
And we did Peru, the Sacred Valley and Machu Picchu 2 years ago. Hiked, mountain biked and rode horses all around Olantaytumbo (incredible trip) and other places in the Valley including 2-day 25 mile overnight backpacking trip . Daughter and I did a backpacker-style trip from Cuzco to Lake Titicaca to La Paz before the Peru stuff. I'm planning on staying active til I can't....

The point is, if you take care of yourself, you can do almost ALL of this "hedonic" stuff for a long time...AND you have the benefit of wisdom that comes with countless life experiences.
Perfect!!
Well said. . .
j :happy
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

smitcat
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by smitcat » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:10 am

afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?

Develop hobbies and interests that are inexpensive or free. Engage in them as much as you like while saving money for the future.
We have many hobbies and activities that are free.
We have many hobbies and activities that are moderate in cost.
We have some activities and hobbies that are more expensive.

Our goals and intentions is to pursue all or them all thru life as best we can.

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