Hedonic Clock

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alexfoo39
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Hedonic Clock

Post by alexfoo39 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

I read of this concept, maybe I'll improvise it.

Given frugal saving in early years, one achieves FIRE by the time of (insert your magic age number here with x25~x50 annual expense).

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)

theorist
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by theorist » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am

Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
Last edited by theorist on Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

goblue100
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by goblue100 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:13 am

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
Anyone who is putting off "living" to FIRE is making a mistake, IMHO. Unless you can RE while still "young", which I would say would be 40 or under. And retire and be able to live the life you desire, not in a tiny house in the woods. Unless that is really your dream...
Financial planners are savers. They want us to be 95 percent confident we can finance a 30-year retirement even though there is an 82 percent probability of being dead by then. - Scott Burns

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climber2020
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by climber2020 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:30 am

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window?
Prioritize spending on things you truly enjoy and skip all the other stuff that most people do to impress others. If you make a high enough income, you can still save a huge chunk of your salary.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by sjt » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:44 am

Life is about balance. The right balance of saving for you is not necessarily right for others. Same with Asset Allocation. Some people literally bathe in buckets to save money, others have shower and still manage to achieve FIRE. Some folks have no desire to retire early. You gotta find what works for you.
"The one who covets is the poorer man, | For he would have that which he never can; | But he who doesn't have and doesn't crave | Is rich, though you may hold him but a knave." - Wife of Bath tale

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by firebirdparts » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:48 am

I think this goes beyond investing theory. About all you can say is that living well is the ultimate revenge. That and I also like to remember that Ellen Kreidman said "Tahiti is a beautiful place and you don't have to wait until you're in a wheelchair to go there."

So if you are a saver, then yeah, you can carve out some money for great experiences, and really they are pretty cheap. They are. Hobbies can be. It just depends on how you do it.
A fool and your money are soon partners

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:49 am

theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
For some people, they would rather be engaged in a rewarding, satisfying career than just about anything else. For others, there is no career that would both satisfy their spending desires and also be more rewarding and satisfying to them than anything else that they could do with their time.

While I enjoy most aspects of my career, there are several things that I would enjoy even more that have nothing to do with earning an income (the opposite in most instances, though certainly not wildly expensive).

It's called personal finance for a good reason.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Watty
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Watty » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:52 am

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window?
Do inexpensive hedonistic activities when you are young and more expensive hedonistic activities when you are old.

(Get your mind out of the gutter!, I didn't mean that, (well not really :D ))

Anyway when I was younger I did things like budget backpacking trips to Alaska where I travelled on the state ferry system and slept in a tent on a deck. Lots of other inexpensive things like camping with friends or staying in hostels when I took a trip to Europe.

Realistically early in my career time was often as much of a constraint as money since I often just had two weeks vacation.

Now that I am retired things like flying somewhere and staying for three weeks is more typical.

In many ways those earlier inexpensive activities were actually better.

One of the problems with many of the FIRE crowd is that some of them want to live frugally in a mobile home in the woods so they can retire at 40 then live in the same mobile home for the rest of their lives.
Last edited by Watty on Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

02nz
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by 02nz » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am

sjt wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:44 am
Some people literally bathe in buckets to save money
LOL, my first read of that I thought it was a discussion of the buckets approach to saving for retirement! I guess this counts, too. :D

theorist
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by theorist » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:49 am
theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
For some people, they would rather be engaged in a rewarding, satisfying career than just about anything else. For others, there is no career that would both satisfy their spending desires and also be more rewarding and satisfying to them than anything else that they could do with their time.

While I enjoy most aspects of my career, there are several things that I would enjoy even more that have nothing to do with earning an income (the opposite in most instances, though certainly not wildly expensive).

It's called personal finance for a good reason.
Fully agreed!

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HomerJ
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by HomerJ » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
I read of this concept, maybe I'll improvise it.

Given frugal saving in early years, one achieves FIRE by the time of (insert your magic age number here with x25~x50 annual expense).

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
Moderation instead of FIRE.

Instead of saving every single penny from 25-45 so you can retire early, instead work until 55-60 (which is still fairly young), and spend a some money on fun during your working years instead of just waiting until you retire
The J stands for Jay

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JoeRetire
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by JoeRetire » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window?
I guess you could YOLO now and plan on living the rest of your life in front of the television later.

Or, you could live every day well, while still being prudent about your financial future.
It's the end of the world as we know it. | It's the end of the world as we know it. | It's the end of the world as we know it. | And I feel fine.

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willthrill81
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:01 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am
alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
I read of this concept, maybe I'll improvise it.

Given frugal saving in early years, one achieves FIRE by the time of (insert your magic age number here with x25~x50 annual expense).

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
Moderation instead of FIRE.

Instead of saving every single penny from 25-45 so you can retire early, instead work until 55-60 (which is still fairly young), and spend a some money on fun during your working years instead of just waiting until you retire
I think that some people can FIRE and be perfectly content, but this is likely only a realistic option for a tiny portion of the population. Unless you are willing to live a very spartan lifestyle for the rest of your life, it's hard for most people to accumulate $1.5 million or more (e.g. $45k income at 3% withdrawal rate) in their 30s or 40s. It's a lot easier to build an adequate nest egg by 50-60, especially when the gap between retirement and receiving Medicare and SS benefits is 5-20 years instead of 20-40.

I haven't heard of many people earning $60k FIRE in their 30s or 40s without a big windfall (e.g. inheritance). The math just doesn't work.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by firebirdparts » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:12 pm

I am thinking about hiking into Macchu Picchu. I found out there's a hotel up there at the top of the road. It's about $2500 a night. So there's an age where you could do both. Which for me would be right now. Won't they be surprised when I check in after not having a bath for several days.
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btq96r
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by btq96r » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:16 pm

I spent most of my 20s, and early 30s living a pretty carefree lifestyle...saving and investing was not on a habit. Needing to do so now is kind of a necessity to get to a comfortable retirement. While I doubt I'll be as rip roar as I was earlier, I still think I can enjoy a good bit.
Moderation is for Canadians.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Laika » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:29 pm

Youth is wasted on the young, isn't it? When young and full of vigor, one is typically broke, and when old and frail, Boggleheads are relatively rich. :annoyed

The obvious answer is a "Hedonic Loan" (patent pending): a loan to your younger self when you don't have money, borrowed from your older self when you (hopefully) do. The goal is to smooth out spending throughout your life. :D

One hitch is figuring out how to pay for insurance, in case you aren't able to pay back the loan when older. Involuntary servitude is one possible answer. :(

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Watty
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Watty » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:38 pm

firebirdparts wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:12 pm
I am thinking about hiking into Macchu Picchu. I found out there's a hotel up there at the top of the road. It's about $2500 a night. So there's an age where you could do both. Which for me would be right now. Won't they be surprised when I check in after not having a bath for several days.
One advantage is that when you are older you are (usually) smarter.

Get a ride to the hotel then hike down. No need to do it both ways.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by abuss368 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:47 pm

climber2020 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:30 am
Prioritize spending on things you truly enjoy and skip all the other stuff that most people do to impress others. If you make a high enough income, you can still save a huge chunk of your salary.
Well said.
John C. Bogle: Two Fund Portfolio - Total Stock & Total Bond - “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:48 pm

02nz wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am
sjt wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:44 am
Some people literally bathe in buckets to save money
LOL, my first read of that I thought it was a discussion of the buckets approach to saving for retirement! I guess this counts, too. :D
+1

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by unclescrooge » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:54 pm

I was an obsessive saver in my youth. I hated working so I dreamt of early retirement. Never taking vacations, or spending money and just trying calculate my retirement date. Eventually, after my Dad passed away suddenly at 63, I realized that life is lived in the present.

I realized life was too short to spend 20 years at a job/career you hated just for the promise of a better tomorrow.

I quit my job, traveled the world for a year and then went to business school full time. Having hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash in my early 30s made all of this much easier. And I spent a lot of it over the 3 years when I didn't have a job.

Now in my mid 40s, with a spouse who's similarly minded on all personal finance topics, we meet our savings goals first and then spend the rest without guilt.

Early retirement isn't a concern anymore. We're on target to take 4 family trips this year: Disneyland, Vegas, Napa and Kauai. And one more to probably east coast or Europe.

Work is much more bearable when you're planning the next vacation every few months.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm

OP,

My apologies ahead of time.

1) I save 1 year of expense every year. I save a lot of money but I am not frugal. By not spending money on expensive cars and houses, I have plenty of discretionary spending.

2) In my earlier career, I traveled within the USA and all over the world on business expenses. I stayed at nice hotels in nice places and spent plenty of money on fine dining.

3) I was an engineer with a large oil company, Sales Manager and Product Manager in the Telecom industry.

4) My most expensive business dinner was $2,000 for a group of 7. It was paid by the employer.

In essence, I save a lot of money and spent a lot of money paid by my employer. There were no compromise.

KlangFool

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by abuss368 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.
I agree with best "energy" days are from 20 - 50 (sadly)!
Last edited by abuss368 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by TropikThunder » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:15 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm
alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.
No so sure I agree with salary best days are from 20 - 50. In business my experience most of the highest earners are 50 to retirement!
OP said best energy is from 20-50, not best salary.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by abuss368 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:19 pm

TropikThunder wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:15 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm
alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.
No so sure I agree with salary best days are from 20 - 50. In business my experience most of the highest earners are 50 to retirement!
OP said best energy is from 20-50, not best salary.
AHH! I will edit. Thanks!
John C. Bogle: Two Fund Portfolio - Total Stock & Total Bond - “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by surfstar » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:16 pm

theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:49 am
theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
For some people, they would rather be engaged in a rewarding, satisfying career than just about anything else. For others, there is no career that would both satisfy their spending desires and also be more rewarding and satisfying to them than anything else that they could do with their time.

While I enjoy most aspects of my career, there are several things that I would enjoy even more that have nothing to do with earning an income (the opposite in most instances, though certainly not wildly expensive).

It's called personal finance for a good reason.
Fully agreed!
Work sucks.
I mean it is so horrible that you'd have to pay me to get me to do it!

Seriously.

My Catch-22: people who are driven to be financially successful are usually the ones who do not desire to retire early. The less you like to work, the less likely you'll earn enough to retire early!
We can't complain too much - although our jobs are not fun or rewarding, the pay is decent, benefits and hours are great and we should be able to retire at 50/52. We still much prefer our weekends and vacations than working.
My other philosophical dichotomy: who has it worse? The person who hates working, or the person who can't find something more enjoyable than working?


For the OP, our planned retirement is age 50/52. Young enough to do just about of the current activities we partake in during weekends and vacations. Also being able to fully devote our time to those things, should actually get us in better shape for certain specific activities vs now, when we are fairly generalized. Specifically rock climbing, backpacking, surfing, and snowboarding. As we age during retirement, we imagine we'll do more sightseeing travel, scuba diving, destination climbing/surfing/etc.

I would happily trade being retired from now until age 67, then have to work full time until death. Youth is wasted on the working.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by klaus14 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:50 pm

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
I read of this concept, maybe I'll improvise it.

Given frugal saving in early years, one achieves FIRE by the time of (insert your magic age number here with x25~x50 annual expense).

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
80/20 rule everywhere.

some saving opportunities are important: like 401k matching.
some frugality opportunities are important: buy a 2 years old civic instead of a new bmw.
some spending opportunities are important: your friends are going to Europe and asked you to join.
some earning opportunities can be life changing: if you have a shot at getting a well paying job at FAANG, you should push yourself.

wasting youth on penny pinching would be a big life mistake. but also try not to make big financial mistakes, invest in yourself and increase your earning.

balance. as someone above already said.
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:10 pm

At 35x annual expenses, as I've written in another thread, it's easily arguable I have enough.

On the way there I spent some money, and saved a lot. Mostly I kept my fixed expenses low. That's what corporations do with layoffs. I applied it only to myself.

I had some things I wanted to do, and did them consistent with working toward enough. Low fixed expenses, for me, are key. I wanted an advanced education in a topic, and to start a business in that industry. I did it. Like many the business financially failed, but I never would have known if I didn't try. I wanted to visit all seven continents. I did it, in a two- to three-star manner, and making use of frequent-flyer miles I earned from traveling for my employer.

I have tasted fantastic champagne. I have eaten magnificent meals. I can't do that every week, month, or year, but I've had those experiences and remember what they were like.

It's a cliche, but I can buy anything I want. I cannot buy everything I want.

Everything is a trade-off against everything else.

PJW

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by afan » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm

Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?

Develop hobbies and interests that are inexpensive or free. Engage in them as much as you like while saving money for the future.
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:28 pm

afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?
Because that's what the American culture is constantly telling them via advertisements, social media postings, celebrities, etc.

"Buy this and you'll be happy!"
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:31 pm

Balance "earning years" with declining health, lifestyle compromises, and dognitive decline.
The accumulation phase . . . and the exponentially increasing pace toward one's expiration date.
There are peaceful periods somewhere in there where you reap the joys in life more than others it seems.

So. . . . big picture. . . :D

There is a point where once one's needs are provided for. . . hopefully, there's the realization that what is important does not have a price tag.
To learn this conceptually and/or academically, is mute. . . to learn this experientially is a harvest.

As "PJW" stated, 35X is enough. . .
and. . . if one is fortunate. . . . 65X is also enough.

j :happy
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:35 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm
alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.
I agree with best "energy" days are from 20 - 50 (sadly)!
+1
Nice way to put it. . . . . :shock:

Post 65. . . .
Foot on the gas full throttle, burning rubber, going nowhere slowly. . . . bald tires. :oops:

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KlangFool
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:42 pm

Folks,

Pardon me. I just do not get it in my context. I am an engineer. My older brother is an engineer too.

A) As an Engineer, we got paid significantly more than the median income. This starts from the entry-level until we reach our earning plateau.

B) Even if we save a lot of money (1 year of expense every year), as long as we do not overspend on big items like cars, houses, and college educations, we can spend a lot more on everything else than average folks.

C) By the way, by saving 1 year of expense every year, we could early retire around 50 years old. My older brother early retired at 49 years old. I did not make it because of my gamble with the Telecom stocks.

So, where is the compromise?

KlangFool

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LilyFleur
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by LilyFleur » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:14 pm

Watty wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:38 pm
firebirdparts wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:12 pm
I am thinking about hiking into Macchu Picchu. I found out there's a hotel up there at the top of the road. It's about $2500 a night. So there's an age where you could do both. Which for me would be right now. Won't they be surprised when I check in after not having a bath for several days.
One advantage is that when you are older you are (usually) smarter.

Get a ride to the hotel then hike down. No need to do it both ways.
Sometimes hiking downhill is harder, especially on the knees :mrgreen:

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by btenny » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:16 pm

I was an engineer as well and so was my brother. We both invested early and worked our a**es off in high school and college. We both learned business and hard work from our relatives and our Dad and Mom. We both retired early by investing regularly from a young age. I got to enjoy my early retirement. My brother passed at 52. My parents passed in my early 20s. They were in their 60s. So I learned that life is precious and is meant to be lived weather you are young or old. I learned to invest but spend enough to play. The 1970s inflation taught me that saving money to put it in a savings account is dumb when you are young. People should buy stocks or mutual funds or real estate or businesses that make money when they are young and can recover if things go sideways.

So invest you must. Save you must. But smell the roses along the way.

Good Luck.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by abuss368 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:20 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:35 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm
alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am

Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.
I agree with best "energy" days are from 20 - 50 (sadly)!
+1
Nice way to put it. . . . . :shock:

Post 65. . . .
Foot on the gas full throttle, burning rubber, going nowhere slowly. . . . bald tires. :oops:

j :happy
Priceless.
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by btenny » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm

Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Schlabba » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:39 pm

alexfoo39 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 am
Question: Given that our energy is best in early days, e.g., age 20-50, how to properly allocate hedonistic activities around this window? Figuratively speaking, age 50-80 is 'shorter' than than the early years, judging on energy level alone.

another way to ask this question:
so i need to keep saving and be frugal until i made it (how about if i get old by the time i hit those FIRE numbers?)
In reality you can simply do both: Enjoy yourself with some of the money and invest some for later.

I never skipped going on holiday for the money, and luckily my other hobbies are cheap. The only things I am deliberately postponing is buying an extremely expensive luxury watch and a BMW. They'll be the first things I'll buy after I reach my 25X, but I also realise I can easily live without.

Also one of my hobbies is investing itself. I found it is something that brings me joy and I love to learn more about. So far I've read many books on economics and investing. I wouldn't regret investing for a second if I were to die tomorrow.

And as a final important note, there is no reason to have no energy at 50+. I've met plenty of old people who, by having a life of regular exercise, can out run many 20 year olds.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by visualguy » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:45 pm

surfstar wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:16 pm
For the OP, our planned retirement is age 50/52. Young enough to do just about of the current activities we partake in during weekends and vacations. Also being able to fully devote our time to those things, should actually get us in better shape for certain specific activities vs now, when we are fairly generalized. Specifically rock climbing, backpacking, surfing, and snowboarding. As we age during retirement, we imagine we'll do more sightseeing travel, scuba diving, destination climbing/surfing/etc.
I think this really varies from person to person... I'm in my early 50s and healthy, but definitely noticed a significant decline in my ability to do things that were not a problem at all when I was younger. In other words, even early 50s can be too late for some of what you mentioned, even if you don't develop any significant medical conditions.

It's things like the back and joints giving you trouble without a whole lot of provocation - common relatively minor things, but they make a significant difference. Also, the levels of energy and stamina aren't the same, sleep quality deteriorates, etc. Aging doesn't start in the 60s... You already notice it very much in your 50s, or at least that's been my experience.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by LilyFleur » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:14 pm

btenny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm
Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.
Thanks for the advice! I got altitude sickness for several days hiking in Yosemite. I think I will pass on Manchu Picchu. But I am very happy for you :mrgreen:

The streets of Paris and art museums are more my dream. I've done that twice now... I don't have the energy for long flights to Europe and walking eight miles a day, as much as I did... Doing some reno on my place and thinking about travel for now. It's all good! I live in a vacation destination so perhaps I don't feel the urge to travel as much as folks who are getting away from snow and ice. I can be pretty happy with a walk in the sunshine on a local island, a bite out to eat, and a trip to a library with views of the ocean.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Sandtrap » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:20 pm

btenny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm
Lily. Be very careful about staying over night at the top of Manchu Picchu. It is really high altitude and unless you have great O2 capacity or are altitude adjusted you will probably have breathing issues while sleeping or staying very long at that height.

But do go and see it. I understand it is really cool.

Good Luck.
Thanks for the reminder.
I've always wanted to visit Machu Picchu.
But, if I wait too many years, I'm going to need to charter a helicopter to land me up there.

j :happy
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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Bronko » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:36 pm

visualguy wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:45 pm
surfstar wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:16 pm
For the OP, our planned retirement is age 50/52. Young enough to do just about of the current activities we partake in during weekends and vacations. Also being able to fully devote our time to those things, should actually get us in better shape for certain specific activities vs now, when we are fairly generalized. Specifically rock climbing, backpacking, surfing, and snowboarding. As we age during retirement, we imagine we'll do more sightseeing travel, scuba diving, destination climbing/surfing/etc.
I think this really varies from person to person... I'm in my early 50s and healthy, but definitely noticed a significant decline in my ability to do things that were not a problem at all when I was younger. In other words, even early 50s can be too late for some of what you mentioned, even if you don't develop any significant medical conditions.

It's things like the back and joints giving you trouble without a whole lot of provocation - common relatively minor things, but they make a significant difference. Also, the levels of energy and stamina aren't the same, sleep quality deteriorates, etc. Aging doesn't start in the 60s... You already notice it very much in your 50s, or at least that's been my experience.
I agree. While you can stay healthy, fit, and eat well, father time has a way of inching up on you. I make my health a priority but the fall off since hitting the 50 mark is noticeable. While I can still DO what I want to, the recovery once I've DONE what I want to is much slower. That being said it's important to be cognizant and plan for more warm up, cool down, lower output and aches/pains.

The type of person who want's an active life of activity and travel will be doing it along the way. I've seen many people who say they will do it later or when they retire but the truth is they are already set in ways they find comfort in. Excuses are free and widely available.

Life is more than working and paying bills. Or working and investing in three fund portfolio's for the BH people. Whistle through the graveyard all you want but in the end we all have a spot reserved. I intend to get full use out of my vessel before it's done.
Never let a little bit of money get in the way of a real good time.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by visualguy » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:02 pm

Yes, do it along the way while still young as circumstances permit.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Pierre Delecto » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:02 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:28 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?
Because that's what the American culture is constantly telling them via advertisements, social media postings, celebrities, etc.

"Buy this and you'll be happy!"
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment for most Bogleheads. Some things just cost money. Like a non-torture seat on a 10 plus hour flight and nice hotel rooms In expensive cities and nice restaurant meals, etc. I suspect this thread is going to be a clash of the “lean living” is just fine and in fact superior crowd versus the I want to live abundantly which costs money crowd.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:22 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:02 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:28 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?
Because that's what the American culture is constantly telling them via advertisements, social media postings, celebrities, etc.

"Buy this and you'll be happy!"
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment for most Bogleheads. Some things just cost money. Like a non-torture seat on a 10 plus hour flight and nice hotel rooms In expensive cities and nice restaurant meals, etc. I suspect this thread is going to be a clash of the “lean living” is just fine and in fact superior crowd versus the I want to live abundantly which costs money crowd.
When did I say anything about Bogleheads?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by Pierre Delecto » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:30 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:22 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:02 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:28 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?
Because that's what the American culture is constantly telling them via advertisements, social media postings, celebrities, etc.

"Buy this and you'll be happy!"
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment for most Bogleheads. Some things just cost money. Like a non-torture seat on a 10 plus hour flight and nice hotel rooms In expensive cities and nice restaurant meals, etc. I suspect this thread is going to be a clash of the “lean living” is just fine and in fact superior crowd versus the I want to live abundantly which costs money crowd.
When did I say anything about Bogleheads?
Earlier commenter’s comment was in context of other posters comments. Don’t disagree that most Americans are caught up with Keeping up with the Jones mentality.

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:41 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:30 pm
Earlier commenter’s comment was in context of other posters comments.
I didn't get that sense, but perhaps that was the intent.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by abuss368 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:04 pm

afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?

Develop hobbies and interests that are inexpensive or free. Engage in them as much as you like while saving money for the future.
Nature of the beast. Being bombarded all day long with advertisements online, radio, bill boards, mailings, television, etc.
John C. Bogle: Two Fund Portfolio - Total Stock & Total Bond - “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by 1789 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:25 pm

afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?

Develop hobbies and interests that are inexpensive or free. Engage in them as much as you like while saving money for the future.
You can spend money and go vacations with family and friends and have very memorable time. You can have a memorable time at home as well but they are not same, imo. My takeaway is, saving saving saving... for someday that will never come is meaningless. One could just get disable next week and die a week later. These are real things in life that most people don't really think, so i believe it is very important to spend money for things that can add a value ones life like vacations.
"My conscience wants vegetarianism to win over the world. And my subconscious is yearning for a piece of juicy meat. But what do i want?" (Andrei Tarkovsky)

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by abuss368 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:36 pm

1789 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:25 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Why do people equate spending money with enjoying life?

Develop hobbies and interests that are inexpensive or free. Engage in them as much as you like while saving money for the future.
You can spend money and go vacations with family and friends and have very memorable time. You can have a memorable time at home as well but they are not same, imo. My takeaway is, saving saving saving... for someday that will never come is meaningless. One could just get disable next week and die a week later. These are real things in life that most people don't really think, so i believe it is very important to spend money for things that can add a value ones life like vacations.
Well said.
John C. Bogle: Two Fund Portfolio - Total Stock & Total Bond - “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."

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Re: Hedonic Clock

Post by manatee2005 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:45 pm

theorist wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:12 am
Maybe this will be a controversial answer to many, but I have never understood a few aspects of the FIRE movement. It seems that some of us, at least, find careers that we are happy with, that we invest substantial parts of our energy and commitment in with some joy, and that we don’t pursue solely to get the money. This means that part of our basic fulfillment in life comes from the career, not in spite of it.

If one can find such a situation, then extreme efforts to save for what would traditionally have been considered a very early retirement make very little sense. You don’t need to be especially frugal when young, because your goal isn’t to retire ASAP.

There is the related problem: what do you do with yourself after you’ve achieved FIRE? You’ll still have to find a satisfying and enriching way to spend your time.

In other words: it seems another approach to life is to save responsibly but not obsessively, explore career options that lead to broader satisfactions in life, and retire whenever your main sources of satisfaction are being hindered (rather than aided) by your choice of career. Then the emphasis is not so much on obsessively saving when young.
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