Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:08 pm

Are there any Bogleheads driving a manual transmission car with an electric parking brake? If so, what is your experience with starting on hills, especially in poor traction conditions?

I'm looking at a 2017 Civic with this combination.

My main concern, of course, is that without a hand brake, when I inadvertently discover a global conspiracy and the fate of the world depends on me, I won't be able to do effective bootleg turns while escaping from the henchmen.

More mundanely, I regularly drive in hilly areas, very frequently in the rain and sometimes in snow. I'm used to feathering a hand brake in order to avoid rolling back while not adding parking brakes on the rear tires to the resistance my front tires have to overcome. I'm not confident it is possible to achieve a comparable level of finesse with an electronically-controlled hill-hold function.

During the test drive, on one gentle hill, the automatic hill-hold function seemed to work ok, but the terrain around the dealership was far from the worst cases I will encounter, so I'm interested in hearing the experiences of others.

Also, does anyone know if the Carfax reports that sellers can pay to make available in their Autotrader listings include all the information I would see if I pay for a report myself?

MotoTrojan
Posts: 9293
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by MotoTrojan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:09 pm

My Mazda’s hill assist has been flawless.

lazydavid
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by lazydavid » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:18 pm

Learn to drive without using the handbrake :) In fifteen years of driving stick, I never needed to use mine to start on a hill.

Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:10 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:18 pm
Learn to drive without using the handbrake :) In fifteen years of driving stick, I never needed to use mine to start on a hill.
Interesting. What's your method, and are you familiar with the hills in west Seattle?

ARoseByAnyOtherName
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:03 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:13 pm

I drove in the hills of San Francisco for years (and years and years) with a manual transmission. The car had "hill assist" but it never got in the way nor did I ever really need it. Never used the parking brake. Just figure out your own technique and get used to it.

ARoseByAnyOtherName
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:03 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:14 pm

The hill assist won't ever really hurt, it will only help if you need it. I wouldn't worry about this at all.

Jags4186
Posts: 4428
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Jags4186 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:21 pm

If the 2017 Civic is anything like the 2016 Civic, the car won’t roll back for about 2 seconds once you lift off the brake and move to the gas.

Additionally, when the electronic parking brake is activated if you have the brake hold button turned on and your seatbelt fastened, it will automatically disengage when you accelerate.
Last edited by Jags4186 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ARoseByAnyOtherName
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:03 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:24 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:08 pm
During the test drive, on one gentle hill, the automatic hill-hold function seemed to work ok, but the terrain around the dealership was far from the worst cases I will encounter, so I'm interested in hearing the experiences of others.
Why don't you test drive the car on the worst cases you will encounter?

Bogleheads are wise but seeing is believing!

crystalbank
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:21 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by crystalbank » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:27 pm

I drove in both SF and Seattle with cars that have hill assist and cars that didn't. Hill assist more or less attempts to do the 'Handbrake' part for you but it mostly got in my way and found it a bit annoying. I got used to it after a few days, but I can do without it.

Electric Parking Brake is another annoying trend, but I don't mind it as much as the hill assist. Sure, you can't do cool Handbrake turns ( :wink: ) but functionally it's pretty similar to a Handbrake.

You should be fine.

Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:34 pm

ARoseByAnyOtherName wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:24 pm
iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:08 pm
During the test drive, on one gentle hill, the automatic hill-hold function seemed to work ok, but the terrain around the dealership was far from the worst cases I will encounter, so I'm interested in hearing the experiences of others.
Why don't you test drive the car on the worst cases you will encounter?

Bogleheads are wise but seeing is believing!
It's about 20 miles from the dealer to where I live and the hills I regularly deal with. I doubt they'd let me take it that far.

ARoseByAnyOtherName
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:03 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:38 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:34 pm
ARoseByAnyOtherName wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:24 pm
iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:08 pm
During the test drive, on one gentle hill, the automatic hill-hold function seemed to work ok, but the terrain around the dealership was far from the worst cases I will encounter, so I'm interested in hearing the experiences of others.
Why don't you test drive the car on the worst cases you will encounter?

Bogleheads are wise but seeing is believing!
It's about 20 miles from the dealer to where I live and the hills I regularly deal with. I doubt they'd let me take it that far.
You should ask them. If it's the difference between making a sale or not I bet they'd let you.

User avatar
Cubicle
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:43 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Cubicle » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:23 am

While on the brake with my right foot, I go into gear & start letting up the clutch with my left foot. When the engine's rpm drop, I know I'm catching, then I switch the right foot from the brake to the accelerator. Very little rollback this way. No handbrake. Takes some learning & perfecting.
"Oh look another bajillion point declin-Ooooh!!! A coupon for pizza!!!!" <--- This is what everyone's IPS should be. ✓✓✓

spae
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:29 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by spae » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:57 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:08 pm
More mundanely, I regularly drive in hilly areas, very frequently in the rain and sometimes in snow. I'm used to feathering a hand brake in order to avoid rolling back while not adding parking brakes on the rear tires to the resistance my front tires have to overcome. I'm not confident it is possible to achieve a comparable level of finesse with an electronically-controlled hill-hold function.
If you learn how to heel-toe downshift, you can use the same idea to get started on hills without rolling backwards. That's what I've always done. Electronic parking brake or not, I trust my brakes more than my parking brake or hill assist and once you're in the habit, it's no effort to do.

If you don't know what this means, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeoLRWCNGcA

lazydavid
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by lazydavid » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:55 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:10 pm
Interesting. What's your method, and are you familiar with the hills in west Seattle?
I am not familiar with the hills in west Seattle, but I am familiar with those in Dubuque--some of which are so steep that a V8 F-150 can barely make it to the top in second gear with the pedal to the floor. I "catch" the car with the clutch as I am transitioning over to the gas. Give it a little more than I would at a flat road to account for the slippage, and let it the rest of the way out.

oldfatguy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by oldfatguy » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:42 am

I've always had manual transmission cars, and never used the handbrake for driving. My 2013 Outback has an electric parking brake and a "hill assist" feature. I've never used that for driving, either, other than to test it out. Seemed to work fine. On my car, if the parking brake is engaged, it will automatically shut off if you put the car in gear and start to drive forward (as long as your seat belt is on, too).

User avatar
dm200
Posts: 23148
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: Washington DC area

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by dm200 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:51 am

Over many decades, driving a manual transmission, I have not needed to use the hand brake very often.

However, I would not purchase a manual transmission car without the hand brake - one extra safety step! There also may be others that occasionally may drive the car.

Although I would still much prefer a manual transmission, even though we have two cars, since my wife will not (she says cannot) drive a manual transmission, I am forced to now have an automatic!

unstartable
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by unstartable » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:51 am

Cubicle wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:23 am
While on the brake with my right foot, I go into gear & start letting up the clutch with my left foot. When the engine's rpm drop, I know I'm catching, then I switch the right foot from the brake to the accelerator. Very little rollback this way. No handbrake. Takes some learning & perfecting.
This is how it's done.

Halicar
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:41 am
Location: Midwest

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Halicar » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:53 am

I have a 2017 Accord with a manual transmission, but with a regular parking brake. I don't live in a hilly area, but I've driven on plenty of steep inclines in parking garages, parking lots, etc. and never had a problem. However, I've driven a manual most of my life and never used the parking brake like this--I never even knew that was a thing until I read about it on this forum a few months ago.

User avatar
dm200
Posts: 23148
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: Washington DC area

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by dm200 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:30 am

unstartable wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:51 am
Cubicle wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:23 am
While on the brake with my right foot, I go into gear & start letting up the clutch with my left foot. When the engine's rpm drop, I know I'm catching, then I switch the right foot from the brake to the accelerator. Very little rollback this way. No handbrake. Takes some learning & perfecting.
This is how it's done.
Yes.. I started driving a manual transmission at about six years old - on the family farm. For loading hampers of tomatoes - my uncle was on the farm truck stacking the hampers of tomatoes and my father loading them - a driver to go slowly through the field - stopping when needed - speeded up the process. I had to be able to engage the clutch, make sure the truck was in the lowest gear and stop by pushing in the clutch and pressing on the brake. At about 7 or 8, I would drive our old 1953 Ford Pickup around the farm. When I could drive on the public roads (got drivers license) - that '53 pickup was my favored vehicle - although the family car was ok. Both had manual transmissions (three on the column).

Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:08 pm

Thank you for all the input. I'll have to practice heel-toe shifting. I did it a little bit this morning in my 2002 Civic - it's awkward due to the spacing and relative height of the pedals, but doable in the current car. I'll see how it is in the 2017 Civic.

Like another poster in the thread, I grew up driving a truck with a foot applied parking brake around the fields. Quick switching between brake and gas while clutching was how I initially learned and drove for years, so I've got lots of experience with that. It just doesn't provide the level of finesse I've grown accustomed to, especially for dealing with a small displacement engine that has very little inertia.

It's not really a deal breaker if I'm not satisfied with the hill-hold feature or the ease of heel-toe shifting. The lack of hand brake is one of a couple downsides I observed about the 10th generation Civic, as well as poor visibility compared to prior generations, too many functions controlled through the touch screen, which is receiving universally bad reviews, and uncertainty about whether the new turbocharged engine will achieve the level of reliability historically associated with Honda.

Overall, I like most things about the 10th generation Civic, and detailed reviews like Motor Trend's long term test and their comparison with other compacts are very positive about everything except the touch screen. However, it faces really stiff competition from an 18 year old car that I've been extremely happy with and has very low cost of continuing ownership, so I'm down to splitting hairs between replacing now or waiting a couple more years.

open_circuit
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by open_circuit » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:11 pm

Yes, my Subaru has this combination. The hill-holder feature has to be enabled every time you start the car if you wish to use it. I rarely use this feature. I've owned and driven manual transmission vehicles for most of my life, and have never been in the habit of using the parking brake to assist on starts, though. I would use it if I was towing something heavy and on a steep incline.

Jack FFR1846
Posts: 11330
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:51 pm

If you heel and toe, literally how it sounds (heel on the brake, toe to blip the throttle) on anything other than a bottom hinged brake car like a BMW 2002 or air cooled 911, it's pretty easy. Don't forget to double clutch while you downshift to save the synchros.....

(brings me back to my track instructor days. If you were not proficient doing the above, coming into a corner, you weren't getting a competition license from me.)
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

marcwd
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by marcwd » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:53 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:55 am

I am not familiar with the hills in west Seattle, but I am familiar with those in Dubuque--some of which are so steep that a V8 F-150 can barely make it to the top in second gear with the pedal to the floor. I "catch" the car with the clutch as I am transitioning over to the gas. Give it a little more than I would at a flat road to account for the slippage, and let it the rest of the way out.
“Catching the car with the clutch” and “giving it a little more...to account for slippage” is invariably resulting in increased clutch wear. There is nothing inexperienced about judiciously using the handbrake when accelerating from a stop on a hill.

lazydavid
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by lazydavid » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:58 pm

marcwd wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:53 pm
“Catching the car with the clutch” and “giving it a little more...to account for slippage” is invariably resulting in increased clutch wear. There is nothing inexperienced about judiciously using the handbrake when accelerating from a stop on a hill.
Others have confirmed that this is the proper method in this very thread. We are talking about a fraction of a second here, essentially no different from starting smoothly on flat ground. I don't sidestep the clutch every time I leave a stoplight either--there is always wear occurring.

I've been through two vehicles that did not exhibit signs of clutch wear after 221k and 158k miles, respectively, using this method. Would the clutch have worn out "prematurely" at 300k miles because of my abuse? Possible. I can live with that outcome.

Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:26 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:58 pm
marcwd wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:53 pm
“Catching the car with the clutch” and “giving it a little more...to account for slippage” is invariably resulting in increased clutch wear. There is nothing inexperienced about judiciously using the handbrake when accelerating from a stop on a hill.
Others have confirmed that this is the proper method in this very thread. We are talking about a fraction of a second here, essentially no different from starting smoothly on flat ground. I don't sidestep the clutch every time I leave a stoplight either--there is always wear occurring.

I've been through two vehicles that did not exhibit signs of clutch wear after 221k and 158k miles, respectively, using this method. Would the clutch have worn out "prematurely" at 300k miles because of my abuse? Possible. I can live with that outcome.
It's a fine and normal way to handle a manual transmission.

All of this discussion is helpful for my consideration of how to assess my potential purchase, but this thread wasn't intended to persuade anyone about a right or wrong way to start out on a hill with a manual transmission.

I don't think everybody needs to be picky about the differences between a hand brake or an electric parking brake with a hill hold function. However, between the geography and the climate where I live, I use my handbrake enough that I am somewhat picky about it and wanted to see if anyone who may have made a similar transition had any thoughts.

User avatar
Cubicle
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:43 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Cubicle » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:20 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:30 am
(three on the column)
Three on the tree?
Four on the floor?
"Oh look another bajillion point declin-Ooooh!!! A coupon for pizza!!!!" <--- This is what everyone's IPS should be. ✓✓✓

User avatar
Cubicle
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:43 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Cubicle » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:23 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:26 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:58 pm
marcwd wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:53 pm
“Catching the car with the clutch” and “giving it a little more...to account for slippage” is invariably resulting in increased clutch wear. There is nothing inexperienced about judiciously using the handbrake when accelerating from a stop on a hill.
Others have confirmed that this is the proper method in this very thread. We are talking about a fraction of a second here, essentially no different from starting smoothly on flat ground. I don't sidestep the clutch every time I leave a stoplight either--there is always wear occurring.

I've been through two vehicles that did not exhibit signs of clutch wear after 221k and 158k miles, respectively, using this method. Would the clutch have worn out "prematurely" at 300k miles because of my abuse? Possible. I can live with that outcome.
It's a fine and normal way to handle a manual transmission.

All of this discussion is helpful for my consideration of how to assess my potential purchase, but this thread wasn't intended to persuade anyone about a right or wrong way to start out on a hill with a manual transmission.

I don't think everybody needs to be picky about the differences between a hand brake or an electric parking brake with a hill hold function. However, between the geography and the climate where I live, I use my handbrake enough that I am somewhat picky about it and wanted to see if anyone who may have made a similar transition had any thoughts.
In the grand scheme of things, the wear "catching" causes is a small fraction of overall wear.
"Oh look another bajillion point declin-Ooooh!!! A coupon for pizza!!!!" <--- This is what everyone's IPS should be. ✓✓✓

KyleAAA
Posts: 8131
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by KyleAAA » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:49 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:10 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:18 pm
Learn to drive without using the handbrake :) In fifteen years of driving stick, I never needed to use mine to start on a hill.
Interesting. What's your method, and are you familiar with the hills in west Seattle?
I drive mine in Seattle and never use the hand break. If you are quick with the pedal it’s the same technique as starting flat.

User avatar
StormShadow
Posts: 874
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by StormShadow » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:19 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:08 pm
Are there any Bogleheads driving a manual transmission car with an electric parking brake? If so, what is your experience with starting on hills, especially in poor traction conditions?
I never figured out how to coordinate a hand brake with hill-starts. Tried it a few times and would end up stalling the engine.

I feather the clutch when the light turns green since I get too anxious taking my hand off the shifter from first gear.

JonnyB
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:28 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by JonnyB » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:21 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:51 pm
If you heel and toe, literally how it sounds (heel on the brake, toe to blip the throttle)
Heel on the brake, toe on the throttle? You must have your feet attached upside down or else are extremely double jointed.

The standard way of doing this for professional drivers is with your toes or ball of foot on the brake and rolling the side of the foot and heel to hit the throttle.

brianH
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by brianH » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:25 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:09 pm
My Mazda’s hill assist has been flawless.
I had no idea my Mazda 3 had this feature until I was driving it home from the dealership. Coming from cars that didn't even have ABS, let alone hill-assist, it was an awesome surprise.

I get the machismo in this thread, but it's like many safety features: if somebody pulls right up on your rear on a steep hill, in the rain, that feature might just give you the control needed to avoid an expensive rollback collision or spinning your tires and looking foolish.

Starfish
Posts: 1679
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Starfish » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 pm

I drive on hills in CA and I lived in San Francisco for 5 years. I had the same issue when I bought my VW CC (my wife's actually) when I was living in SF. I dislike it even today.
However my VW GTI has hill assist. Any car with electric parking brake should come with hill assist.
This is a clear example where the technology made things worse, not better. Even hill assist + electric parking brake is not as good as a normal parking brake, it's very easy to smoke the clutch.

lazydavid wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:55 am
iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:10 pm
Interesting. What's your method, and are you familiar with the hills in west Seattle?
I am not familiar with the hills in west Seattle, but I am familiar with those in Dubuque--some of which are so steep that a V8 F-150 can barely make it to the top in second gear with the pedal to the floor. I "catch" the car with the clutch as I am transitioning over to the gas. Give it a little more than I would at a flat road to account for the slippage, and let it the rest of the way out.
Dubuque, Iowa? Yeah very funny :D



PS: yes, I can start the car on steep hill only using the pedals, but the above posters most probably did not experience a traffic light on a steep slope with the car behind is 5 inches away. Or just parking on steep slope in a spot only 10 inches longer than your car. Is not about starting once, is about doing 5-6 back an fort maneuvers, without having always a curb to lean on (or too high of a curb).

User avatar
ClevrChico
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by ClevrChico » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:57 pm

I'm glad my manual car still has a traditional handbrake. I use it all the time on hills.

I don't trust an electric powered emergency/parking brake. Having had a primary brake system fail, I want the backup to be as reliable as possible.

Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:41 am

Starfish wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 pm
PS: yes, I can start the car on steep hill only using the pedals, but the above posters most probably did not experience a traffic light on a steep slope with the car behind is 5 inches away. Or just parking on steep slope in a spot only 10 inches longer than your car. Is not about starting once, is about doing 5-6 back an fort maneuvers, without having always a curb to lean on (or too high of a curb).
I tried pedal only on my driveway last night, which is one of the steepest slopes I ever have to drive on, just to re-assure myself I'm not missing anything those who don't seem to see a value to the hand brake might be doing significantly better.

My conclusion: it's not possible to do it much faster than I already do, regardless of how much practice I might put into feathering the gas and clutch just right. I still spun the tires a bit on slightly damp pavement, plus rolled back and slipped the clutch more than I like to. And heal-toe has promise, but will take some practice.

When conditions are marginal, I still believe having a hand brake is a significant aid for starting on a hill.

I haven't been back to the dealer yet to further test how well the electronic hill hold compares. I'm expecting a slight reduction in the range of conditions I would be able to get my car in motion, but perhaps it's not enough that I should make it a major factor in my decision.

At this point, cost optimization is the main thing holding me up.

Looking at up-front cost, resale values, fuel costs, and foregone investment returns (assuming Total Bond at ~3%), I figure that compared to making $1000 worth of prudent but not currently critical repairs to my current car and keeping it for another 2 years, buying the lightly used Civic would cost about $2,000 more.

It's hard to quantify benefits like improved comfort, utility, and expected reliability of the newer car in as tangible of a way as that.

Starfish
Posts: 1679
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Starfish » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:07 pm

ClevrChico wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:57 pm
I'm glad my manual car still has a traditional handbrake. I use it all the time on hills.

I don't trust an electric powered emergency/parking brake. Having had a primary brake system fail, I want the backup to be as reliable as possible.
In all fairness mechanical systems are very fallible. Old type of parking brake had a cable which broke easily.
I assume the electrical parking brake fails "closed" not open (like a nuclear plant), otherwise it would be vulnerable to battery discharge.
My conclusion: it's not possible to do it much faster than I already do, regardless of how much practice I might put into feathering the gas and clutch just right. I still spun the tires a bit on slightly damp pavement, plus rolled back and slipped the clutch more than I like to. And heal-toe has promise, but will take some practice.
It cannot be done without heel toe. You have to have right foot on both pedals at the same time for transition.
But it's much easier with a normal parking brake.
I haven't been back to the dealer yet to further test how well the electronic hill hold compares. I'm expecting a slight reduction in the range of conditions I would be able to get my car in motion, but perhaps it's not enough that I should make it a major factor in my decision.
Hill hold works very well.
I like it less than a simple parking brake because I cannot control the point it releases, but it works.

Jack FFR1846
Posts: 11330
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:19 pm

JonnyB wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:21 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:51 pm
If you heel and toe, literally how it sounds (heel on the brake, toe to blip the throttle)
Heel on the brake, toe on the throttle? You must have your feet attached upside down or else are extremely double jointed.

The standard way of doing this for professional drivers is with your toes or ball of foot on the brake and rolling the side of the foot and heel to hit the throttle.
I'm aware of the 3 ways. The way I described, the way you described and a third way, where you put your heel on the gas and toe on the brake. I spent 25 years road racing and a dozen years instructing. Part of instructing involves taking the student's car for the first 3 laps. I've found my way works for me with nearly any car. Pedal placement is more important for your way, which I'll admit is the most common. It's very easy to do in a Lotus as the pedals are properly placed. Harder in a 69 GT-500, both of which I've driven on the track.

With my method, the toe blips the top of the gas with the heel on the brake pad. Learning to brake with the heel is the hardest part. Remember that you don't have to perfectly match revs. The goal is to get them closer than if you did nothing. My double clutch heel/toe braking into a corner is extremely fast and all muscle memory at this point.

That said, I'm very much in favor of using the hand brake to hold on a hill, rather than wearing the clutch for no reason. I can hold on a hill without it, but why wear the thing for no reason. I have not tried this with an electric e brake.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

oldfatguy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by oldfatguy » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:34 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:41 am

I haven't been back to the dealer yet to further test how well the electronic hill hold compares. I'm expecting a slight reduction in the range of conditions I would be able to get my car in motion, but perhaps it's not enough that I should make it a major factor in my decision.
OP, if you normally use the parking brake to start on a hill/incline, then I think you will find the hill hold function does exactly what you want. It just applies the parking brake and then releases it automatically when you start to drive forward. The only thing different for you should be that it will be hands-free.

lazydavid
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by lazydavid » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:59 pm

Starfish wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:07 pm
ClevrChico wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:57 pm
I'm glad my manual car still has a traditional handbrake. I use it all the time on hills.

I don't trust an electric powered emergency/parking brake. Having had a primary brake system fail, I want the backup to be as reliable as possible.
In all fairness mechanical systems are very fallible. Old type of parking brake had a cable which broke easily.
I assume the electrical parking brake fails "closed" not open (like a nuclear plant), otherwise it would be vulnerable to battery discharge.
Electric parking brakes fail in whatever position they're currently in. They require power to apply, and power to release.

lazydavid
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by lazydavid » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:14 pm

Starfish wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 pm
I drive on hills in CA and I lived in San Francisco for 5 years. I had the same issue when I bought my VW CC (my wife's actually) when I was living in SF. I dislike it even today.
However my VW GTI has hill assist. Any car with electric parking brake should come with hill assist.
This is a clear example where the technology made things worse, not better. Even hill assist + electric parking brake is not as good as a normal parking brake, it's very easy to smoke the clutch.

lazydavid wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:55 am
iamlucky13 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:10 pm
Interesting. What's your method, and are you familiar with the hills in west Seattle?
I am not familiar with the hills in west Seattle, but I am familiar with those in Dubuque--some of which are so steep that a V8 F-150 can barely make it to the top in second gear with the pedal to the floor. I "catch" the car with the clutch as I am transitioning over to the gas. Give it a little more than I would at a flat road to account for the slippage, and let it the rest of the way out.
Dubuque, Iowa? Yeah very funny :D
One mocks what one does not understand. :mrgreen: Here is a cable car that goes up one of the hills that I presume you think are flat:

Image

This one happens to be the shortest and steepest cable railway in the entire world, at 41 degrees. It rises 189 feet over its 296 foot length.

Most of Iowa is indeed very flat. But Dubuque is even with the Mississippi river right as you enter from Illinois, and then after a few blocks on flat land climbs 300+ feet in roughly a quarter mile, which is a 22% grade--exactly the same as the very steepest street in Seattle.

TallBoy29er
Posts: 899
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:06 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by TallBoy29er » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:33 pm

unstartable wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:51 am
Cubicle wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:23 am
While on the brake with my right foot, I go into gear & start letting up the clutch with my left foot. When the engine's rpm drop, I know I'm catching, then I switch the right foot from the brake to the accelerator. Very little rollback this way. No handbrake. Takes some learning & perfecting.
This is how it's done.
Yep. Have driven in SF on crazy hills, and many other places, with manuals with hand brakes that I never used. Feather the clutch w/ the left foot, drop the right foot on the gas when it starts to catch, and you are fine. If you haven't practiced, you'll likely drop too much on the gas the first few time ( :D the tires will squeal), but you'll get the hang of it.

zip605
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:51 pm
Location: Chicago area

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by zip605 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:08 pm

I have driven a 2017 Civic manual with “electric parking brake” and “brake hold” often.

With “brake hold off”, the car will hold on a hill for about 1-2 seconds after taking foot off the brake. Easing out the clutch disengages the brakes immediately, so if you are quick on switching from brake to gas, the car is ready to move as quick as you are.

With “brake hold on”, when you come to a stop, the brakes will stay applied even after you take your foot off the brake pedal. They will stay applied continuously until you ease out the clutch or shut the car off. In other words, No automatic release after 1-2 seconds. If you shut the car off in this mode, the electric parking brake is automatically applied.

It all works intuitively after a few days and removes a lot of pressure on those whose hill starts are less than smooth.

If you are buckled up with the parking brake applied, just letting out the clutch enough to slightly engage will automatically release the parking brake.
zip605

tibbitts
Posts: 9773
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by tibbitts » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:28 pm

I owned several manual transmission cars, but wouldn't want to again. I don't believe most ordinary people, including me, can start as reliably on an extremely steep hill, particularly with very limited traction (rain, ice, snow), with a manual transmission.

Automatics have the same problem to a lesser degree: you often have to add throttle before releasing the brake to avoid rolling backwards. You just don't need three feet or a handbrake to do that, although for those of us who didn't learn to use a different foot for the brake and gas, it's still somewhat awkward.

JonnyB
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:28 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by JonnyB » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:52 pm

What is this "manual transmission" people are speaking of?

According to Edmunds, only 2% of cars in the U.S. last year were sold with manual transmissions. Almost no one in the U.S. learning to drive today will ever drive a manual transmission vehicle of any kind.

Automatic transmissions are in cars, pickup trucks, long haul semi-trucks, farm tractors, construction and mining equipment. Knowing how to drive a manual transmission is about as useful as learning Morse code. Even less so after the transition to electric vehicles.

lazydavid
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by lazydavid » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:31 pm

JonnyB wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:52 pm
What is this "manual transmission" people are speaking of?

According to Edmunds, only 2% of cars in the U.S. last year were sold with manual transmissions. Almost no one in the U.S. learning to drive today will ever drive a manual transmission vehicle of any kind.
It's something that some people who actually enjoy driving (as opposed to merely tolerating it as a form of transportation) choose to use.

My son (currently 12) knew how to drive a manual by 10 years old, though he hasn't yet done so for real. :D If I were to set him loose today and told him he could go buy any car he wanted for a reasonable price (let's say MSRP of under $40k), his top choice is not even available with an automatic. What can I say, he's a good boy. :mrgreen:

kevinf
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by kevinf » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:36 pm

JonnyB wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:52 pm
What is this "manual transmission" people are speaking of?

According to Edmunds, only 2% of cars in the U.S. last year were sold with manual transmissions. Almost no one in the U.S. learning to drive today will ever drive a manual transmission vehicle of any kind.

Automatic transmissions are in cars, pickup trucks, long haul semi-trucks, farm tractors, construction and mining equipment. Knowing how to drive a manual transmission is about as useful as learning Morse code. Even less so after the transition to electric vehicles.
Motorcycles are still largely manual transmission. Hill starts are dead simple on a motorcycle though due to the foot brake :)

spae
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:29 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by spae » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:08 pm

PS: yes, I can start the car on steep hill only using the pedals, but the above posters most probably did not experience a traffic light on a steep slope with the car behind is 5 inches away. Or just parking on steep slope in a spot only 10 inches longer than your car. Is not about starting once, is about doing 5-6 back an fort maneuvers, without having always a curb to lean on (or too high of a curb).
There are an awful lot of assumptions in this comment. Others have already responded to this, but I'll say that I've driven in cities with steep hills and had cars pull up closely enough to me that I can't see their headlights in my rearview mirror and have never rolled back into a car. I've also parallel parked on hills without a problem. This isn't exactly rocket science, anyone who can drive a manual can probably learn to do this in less than half an hour.
I get the machismo in this thread, but it's like many safety features
Being able to downshift smoothly is machismo? Is being able to parallel park machismo as well?

I'm all for modern safety features like automatic braking, lane assist, and blind spot monitoring. I even like stability control and ABS even though I disable them for rally cross because you can drive safely well beyond stability control limits and stop more quickly without ABS, but I don't think hill assist is really in the same class as modern safety features.

If I don't post this link, someone will object to this ABS claim, please watch this before you object: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fge_m9u864k

User avatar
Cubicle
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:43 am

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by Cubicle » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:46 pm

JonnyB wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:52 pm
Knowing how to drive a manual transmission is about as useful as learning Morse code.
"Knowing proper asset allocation for a specific risk tolerance, & how to rebalance tax efficiently is useless since the advent of robo-advisors."

Not all things "automatic" are better. And from what I have been told... knowing how to drive a manual transmission is very handy if you ever rent cars outside of the USA & Canada.

I can't shift faster than a model year 2027 car with dual clutch 14.62 speed automatic transmission. But I am having much more fun 'rowing my own".
"Oh look another bajillion point declin-Ooooh!!! A coupon for pizza!!!!" <--- This is what everyone's IPS should be. ✓✓✓

brianH
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by brianH » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:27 am

spae wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:08 pm
Being able to downshift smoothly is machismo? Is being able to parallel park machismo as well?

I'm all for modern safety features like automatic braking, lane assist, and blind spot monitoring. I even like stability control and ABS even though I disable them for rally cross because you can drive safely well beyond stability control limits and stop more quickly without ABS, but I don't think hill assist is really in the same class as modern safety features.
Obviously, the safety features aren't targeting 'professional' drivers or cars used on rally tracks. I'd wager most regular drivers will slam the brake during a panic stop, which would result in low ability to steer without ABS keeping the front wheels from skidding.

Hill assist isn't going to lower your chances of dying, but I don't see how you can argue that it won't help prevent some rollback collisions, under certain conditions, for average drivers (i.e. the target market.) Ultimately, even the best drivers may make a mistake on a steep incline, and considering the feature doesn't get in the way of normal driving (it doesn't), then it seems like a positive feature.

spae
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:29 pm

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by spae » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:18 pm

brianH wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:27 am
Hill assist isn't going to lower your chances of dying, but I don't see how you can argue that it won't help prevent some rollback collisions, under certain conditions, for average drivers (i.e. the target market.) Ultimately, even the best drivers may make a mistake on a steep incline, and considering the feature doesn't get in the way of normal driving (it doesn't), then it seems like a positive feature.
I think that it's better to have it available than not, but I've heard complaints that it does get in the way of normal driving. It grabs too hard and stalls the car or results in a rough start. That's not been my experience, but given the small benefit and the low stakes involved in learning how to drive without hill assist compared to learning how to drive without ABS or stability control, it wouldn't be on a list of must-have features on a car and the rest of the safety features are must-have features for me. Even if it weren't a legal liability to drive with ABS off, I'd drive with ABS on during normal driving in good conditions.

Topic Author
iamlucky13
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Manual Transmission + Electric Parking Brake?

Post by iamlucky13 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:32 pm

zip605 wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:08 pm
I have driven a 2017 Civic manual with “electric parking brake” and “brake hold” often.

With “brake hold off”, the car will hold on a hill for about 1-2 seconds after taking foot off the brake. Easing out the clutch disengages the brakes immediately, so if you are quick on switching from brake to gas, the car is ready to move as quick as you are.

With “brake hold on”, when you come to a stop, the brakes will stay applied even after you take your foot off the brake pedal. They will stay applied continuously until you ease out the clutch or shut the car off. In other words, No automatic release after 1-2 seconds. If you shut the car off in this mode, the electric parking brake is automatically applied.

It all works intuitively after a few days and removes a lot of pressure on those whose hill starts are less than smooth.

If you are buckled up with the parking brake applied, just letting out the clutch enough to slightly engage will automatically release the parking brake.
Thank you. This has been the most relevant response so far. So it seems even with the system off it is still doing something, but with a fairly reasonable response either way. There's still some nuances I am curious about, but i think I am willing to risk small dissatisfactions with it.

Any complaints about the feature from your experience?

Post Reply