Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

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tm3
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:16 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by tm3 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:39 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:18 pm
I hope during that time either Tesla becomes the reliable car manufacturer it aims to be

I want Tesla to succeed. I want them to become more reliable. I want their batteries to last longer and cheaper to produce.

Luckily I do not need a new car today because I would prefer to allow Tesla more time to keep improving or another manufacturer to catch up and be better.
Well said. Perhaps unfortunately I'm in the market now, and the big strike against Tesla is the reliability. I don't know if I'll be able to rationalize my way around that hurdle, but given my recent horrible experience with Toyota (now irretrievably fallen from Mount Olympus) there is a chance.

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sk2101
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:54 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by sk2101 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:39 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 pm
I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.
This was actually a thing back in the early 2000s when fuel cells were all the rave. I remember some prototypes of fuel cell powered phones, where one would need to fill up from time to time. Here is one story:

https://www.geek.com/mobile/motorola-an ... es-546797/

wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm

Found it; Worth watching; it is only 1 minute long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn__9hLJKAk

marcwd
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marcwd » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm
Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.

TheCowbell
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:20 am

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:27 pm

marcwd wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm
Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
Not quite true, it depends on the car. My 3 uses a 60A circuit (48A continuous) and I believe you can get up to 80A in S/X.

Anyways, you can also dial down the amps as appropriate. A 20A 240v charge will fill you up nightly, it's just a question of whether you need faster charging which the vast majority wouldn't...

SpaghettiMonster
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by SpaghettiMonster » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:10 pm

TheCowbell wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:03 pm
SpaghettiMonster wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm
I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.
But is doesn’t have to be “you.” Whenever I pass by a Supercharger, there is “someone” there. In your car for 30 min? No problem, I can just hang out all day being shady. Going to the restaurant? I know that your car will be unattended for 30 min.

Big Dog
Posts: 1638
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm

marcwd wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm
Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A. Electrician has already stated to me that, depending on other load requirements, 100A service can be entirely adequate.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed. (now, most folks don't need max charge speed overnight, but if the electrician is coming out to lay wire, might as well install a slightly thicker cable if possible, since the labor costs is fixed.)

TheCowbell
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:20 am

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:46 pm

SpaghettiMonster wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:10 pm
TheCowbell wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:03 pm
SpaghettiMonster wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm
I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.
But is doesn’t have to be “you.” Whenever I pass by a Supercharger, there is “someone” there. In your car for 30 min? No problem, I can just hang out all day being shady. Going to the restaurant? I know that your car will be unattended for 30 min.
I can only speak for myself. I know plenty of people have unlimited SC so they may be taking advantage, or travelers. I'd wager it's a fraction of the number of people that visit gas pumps (1:1 EV:ice assumed of course) because mile for mile ice drivers *have* to go to the pump. I don't!

I am getting the impression you're reaching a little - wouldn't any restaurant parking lot have the same potential for nefarious activity?

harikaried
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:47 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.

marcwd
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by marcwd » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:08 pm

harikaried wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm
Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
My statement was incorrect. The Level 2 charging specified maximum is 19.2kW or 80A at 240V. Actual maximum charge current will be car and charger dependent.

UnclePennybags
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 10:50 am

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by UnclePennybags » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:42 pm

marcwd wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:08 pm
harikaried wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm
Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
My statement was incorrect. The Level 2 charging specified maximum is 19.2kW or 80A at 240V. Actual maximum charge current will be car and charger dependent.
I have an 80A wall charger which required a 100A circuit and "dual chargers" as an option on my model S. I believe it is relatively uncommon to find dual chargers on the Model S/X and impossible to do on the Model 3. To further complicate matters, Level 2 charging is only limited to 19.2kw when using AC power. DC based level 2 chargers are capable of 90kw (up to 200a at from 200-450v). However, I think this is a mostly theoretical discussion, since I've never actually encountered a level 2 charger in the real world that delivered that kind of current, even with the CHAdeMO adapter that I never should have bought.

Topic Author
investor997
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:44 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 pm
I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.
Gas powered blenders are an actual thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmzgmOv0qoM

A friend of mine had one and it was a riot to use out on the Sandbar just upstream of Lake Havasu!

Topic Author
investor997
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:49 pm

harikaried wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm
Big Dog wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 pm
marcwd wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:03 pm
Level 2 charging current is no more than 40A.
The model 3-LR can charge up to 48 amps which requires a 60 amp circuit for max speed.
I believe the confusion here is that the "dedicated" Tesla Wall Connector can charge up to 48A requiring 60A circuit (limited to 80% of max) while the original "generic" Mobile Connector using a regular 14-50 outlet on a 50A circuit can charge up to 40A (again limited to 80% of max). However, the Mobile Connector currently available is "gen 2" which additionally is designed to limit itself to 32A charging even on a 50A circuit.

We have a Gen 2 Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50, so we charge about 30 miles per hour for our Model 3. The current plan is when we also have a Model Y, we'll just share the charger as each vehicle normally drives 30 miles each day anyway, and with both rated for 300+ miles, there isn't a need to "fully charge" every night.
Nothing wrong with this approach.

BTW, Tesla Wall Connectors can be connected together via RS-485 data link and can be made to intelligently share a single circuit. For example, you could put two TWCs on a single 60A breaker. If only one car is charging then it will take all 48A available. If the second car gets plugged in, the two chargers will drop the current down to 24A apiece.

There's also a brand spanking new TWC available with built-in Wi-Fi but I'm not sure if it can daisy chain like the older one.

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