Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

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psteinx
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by psteinx » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:12 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:45 pm
So just because someone is able to visit a gas station and fill their tank in 2 minutes (which i don't believe) doesn't mean that's everyone's experience is similar.
I agree that not everyone's experience is similar, and I believe your story... Not sure why you don't believe mine.

I agree that 2 minutes is probably not accurate if one has to get off the Interstate, but I drive to work on normal roads, and gas stations are right there. When I drive to the lake, we take county highways, and the gas stations are right on the road. Turn right into the gas station and you're at the pump 10 seconds later. It really does only take 2 minutes to fuel my car in most situations.
To add my anecdata:

Whether I use the interstate or not, on ~99% non-trivial trips from my house, I pass by/near one or more gas stations.

The most common starting route (~60% of my non trivial trips) takes me by or close to a modern, well lit, many-pump station, that requires a fairly simple right turn in and back out (or two lefts if I catch it on the way home). It probably is, typically, ~2 minutes of total detour to me, assuming I don't go inside the gas station for anything.

An alternate route (usually for trips in a slightly different direction, ~30% of the time), takes me past or close to an even nicer gas station (distinguished mainly by the quality of the food and other services inside). It actually DOES require (typically) a slight detour from how I'd normally traverse the intersection in question, so call it ~3-4 minute total average detour (again, assuming I don't actually go inside to grab a snack or hit the ATM, say).
Last edited by psteinx on Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

autolycus
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by autolycus » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:23 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:45 pm

Personally, I wish all EV cars had a fuel tank and a gas generator right on board.

Not the type of hybrid where it still has a gas engine, but the hybrid where the car is fully electric, but when the battery runs down, it can burn gas and recharge the battery.

That way you get all the advantages of both worlds. Short commutes, 100% electric. charge at home... If you go farther, gas generator kicks in. Would greatly extend the range, and there would have been no need for a 10 billion dollar investment in SuperChargers all across the country.
So... a Chevy Volt (not Bolt)?

EDIT: Nope, not even quite that. The Volt does have a small gas engine in addition to the electric motors and generator. I thought they'd cut out the gas engine and just had the other two.

psteinx
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by psteinx » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:40 pm

In the name of SCIENCE!!!!! I decided to test this.

Swung by the most convenient gas station for me (the first one mentioned in my post a couple above this).

Time to refill 7.9 gallons: 2:57.92 (i.e. just under 3 minutes).

That was measured with a stopwatch, starting just before the turn in (as I was slowing), and resuming after I was back out on the road. This was on the path to me getting to lunch. Mitigating factors:

- I got a paper receipt (I don't normally do this - it added a bit of time)
- The most convenient pump was open (saved a bit of time)

I didn't go inside - used CC at the pump (this is normal for me.)

Range added, at roughly 31.4 mpg (what the trip meter was reading when I got home - averaging a bunch of recent driving I think): 248 miles.
Cost: $2.069/gallon (or about 6.6 cents per mile)
Vehicle in question: 2017 Honda Civic LX - mostly used by my kids.

Given that this was the most convenient gas station I use, and took just under 3 minutes, I revise my estimate upthread of the slightly less convenient alternative I sometimes use to ~3-6 minutes.

SeaToTheBay
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by SeaToTheBay » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:21 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:54 pm
The way I see it, a family of two or more cars can have one electric and one gas powered. This way you get the best of both worlds.
x2

Another option if long road trips are infrequent (1-2/yr and shorter-term) is to simply rent a gas car for those trips. A bit inconvenient to rent and return, but on the plus side you can match the type of vehicle with the trip (SUV/van for active/family trip, convertible for beach trip, etc.). If you're only road tripping 5 days/yr, I don't see the need to have a gas car for the other 360 days/yr.

wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:58 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:45 pm
That way you get all the advantages of both worlds. Short commutes, 100% electric. charge at home... If you go farther, gas generator kicks in. Would greatly extend the range, and there would have been no need for a 10 billion dollar investment in SuperChargers all across the country.
Now you have *more* stuff in the vehicle which can go wrong and more stuff to maintain and just voided many of the advantages of the BEV. Neither of these systems are optimal aka it has a tiny battery pack and an anemic engine.

GM tried that with Volt and gave up. The BMW "drag a generator behind it" aka range extender must have been somebody idea of a running gag.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:09 pm

Anyone who pays attention on BHs knows that I’m a big fan of EVs. Recently, my wife was considering getting a hybrid, and I fully supported her changing her mind and getting an ICE, I hope her last fossil fueled vehicle. Hybrids, or cars that carry a fossil fueled generator with them, are neither fish nor fowl. Probably worst of both worlds.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

psteinx
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by psteinx » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:15 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:09 pm
Hybrids, or cars that carry a fossil fueled generator with them, are neither fish nor fowl. Probably worst of both worlds.
Well, there's (at least) two types of hybrids. Plug-ins and non. For the latter, I suspect that the trade-off of higher initial cost versus ongoing savings (better MPG) is often worth it. But I haven't done any real analysis on this recently. IIRC, hybrids also sometimes are lacking in power compared to straight-up ICE versions of the same model.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:17 pm

psteinx wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:15 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:09 pm
Hybrids, or cars that carry a fossil fueled generator with them, are neither fish nor fowl. Probably worst of both worlds.
Well, there's (at least) two types of hybrids. Plug-ins and non. For the latter, I suspect that the trade-off of higher initial cost versus ongoing savings (better MPG) is often worth it. But I haven't done any real analysis on this recently. IIRC, hybrids also sometimes are lacking in power compared to straight-up ICE versions of the same model.
Hybrid is added complexity and we all know how we feel about complexity. Lol.

Jeff Albertson
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Jeff Albertson » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:19 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:17 pm
Hybrid is added complexity and we all know how we feel about complexity. Lol.
Look at the Consumer Reports reliability ratings for the Toyota Prius. How many other cars can match their high reliability?

flyphotoguy
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by flyphotoguy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:48 pm

Jeff Albertson wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:19 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:17 pm
Hybrid is added complexity and we all know how we feel about complexity. Lol.
Look at the Consumer Reports reliability ratings for the Toyota Prius. How many other cars can match their high reliability?
Not only the Prius, my sister still drives a 2007/8 Camry hybrid... 200k+ miles and just regular maintenance. If the battery goes she might go tesla or just replace the battery. They already have a newer Prius that my BIL drives and have been happy with both.

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HomerJ
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:13 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:58 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:45 pm
That way you get all the advantages of both worlds. Short commutes, 100% electric. charge at home... If you go farther, gas generator kicks in. Would greatly extend the range, and there would have been no need for a 10 billion dollar investment in SuperChargers all across the country.
Now you have *more* stuff in the vehicle which can go wrong and more stuff to maintain and just voided many of the advantages of the BEV. Neither of these systems are optimal aka it has a tiny battery pack and an anemic engine.

GM tried that with Volt and gave up. The BMW "drag a generator behind it" aka range extender must have been somebody idea of a running gag.
I don't think so... Having both a gas engine and an electric engine is too many moving parts. There are hybrids like that.

But a gas tank and a generator (and an exhaust) that just recharges the battery is pretty simple.

You'd have all the simplicity of a pure EV vehicle with the extended range of an ICE.

It sure would have made adoption easier.
The J stands for Jay

wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:22 pm

<original must have been edited>
I understand you meant a gas generator instead of "gas tank" but I think a small generator (say 5kW) would not be able to keep up with the vehicle power requirement to say nothing about satisfying emission requirement. 5kW is about 8HP and we have NOT even taken in to account of the conversion losses.
Last edited by wrongfunds on Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bltkmt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by bltkmt » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:22 pm

Don't do it.

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:10 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:13 pm
I don't think so... Having both a gas engine and an electric engine is too many moving parts. There are hybrids like that.

But a gas tank and a generator (and an exhaust) that just recharges the battery is pretty simple.

You'd have all the simplicity of a pure EV vehicle with the extended range of an ICE.

It sure would have made adoption easier.
This doesn't make any sense. If a gas engine acts as a generator that recharges a battery, fine. But what makes the wheels turn? There has to be either more motors or a transmission somewhere, i.e. more complexity.

wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:43 pm

Has anybody looked at the size and weight of say 40kW portable generator (~60HP) ? I have a portable 5kW generator (aka on 2 wheels to drag) for emergency power. If I had to multiple it by 8, it will be about 1/3 size and weight of a small car! On top of that, the last usable (in USA) car with 60HP was probably built at least 50 years ago if not older.

That is why it is a non-starter.

btenny
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by btenny » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:02 pm

You people are missing out on a key reason the Tesla is so expensive. The NUMBER of batteries. A Tesla Model 3 Long Range has 4416 individual cell batteries!!!! Then you have to add huge amounts of connection hardware and cooling and heating hardware to get a usable power supply. So very complex and I suggest more complex than many ICE cars. So the simple electric motor ends up not being a big factor in cost or reliability. And the Model X and S were even worse. Those cars has smaller cells.

I did some calculations on total parts count for a Model 3 versus a Model S versus the price of the two cars. This analysis suggested Tesla needed to reduce the battery cell count to 2000 or less (and thus have more power per cell) to get the price for a Model 3 down near $30K.

So we shall see if the Model Y or the Chinese Model 3 use the same battery configuration and technology....

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HomerJ
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:10 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:13 pm
I don't think so... Having both a gas engine and an electric engine is too many moving parts. There are hybrids like that.

But a gas tank and a generator (and an exhaust) that just recharges the battery is pretty simple.

You'd have all the simplicity of a pure EV vehicle with the extended range of an ICE.

It sure would have made adoption easier.
This doesn't make any sense. If a gas engine acts as a generator that recharges a battery, fine. But what makes the wheels turn? There has to be either more motors or a transmission somewhere, i.e. more complexity.
The electric motor turns the wheels... the gas generator is just to recharge the battery. Not the little battery in ICE cars, the big battery in the EV car.

Maybe it's not feasible. Too bad...
The J stands for Jay

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investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:01 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm
The electric motor turns the wheels... the gas generator is just to recharge the battery. Not the little battery in ICE cars, the big battery in the EV car.

Maybe it's not feasible. Too bad...
So instead of having:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A large battery to power the electric motor

...You would have:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A smaller battery to power the electric motor
3) A gas generator to recharge the battery
4) A fuel tank to store the gas used by the generator
5) Everything that goes with gas engines (intakes, air filters, exhaust, catalytic converter, oil, coolant, ...)
6) Increased maintenance costs due to the ICE engine (oil changes, smog checks)
7) Weaker acceleration. The smaller battery provides less peak current than a large one.

harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:24 pm

psteinx wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:40 pm
Swung by the most convenient gas station for me
I think I got tricked by Costco! Making me rethink its convenience and our membership now… :wink:

Needed to top off the Forester to drive up the mountains tomorrow for ski, and I was stopping by Costco to get some stuff anyway. The Costco gas station stop took an extra 13 minutes, and most of it just waiting around for the line to move, pump to be available, tank to fill, line to exit the parking lot. Sure, once I got to the pump, it wasn't much longer to fill up 12 gallons for $34 and 300 miles, but clearly other people think it's worthwhile to wait and get gas at Costco.

We drive the Forester about 15k miles/year, so about 50 refills, and even assuming just 3 minutes per refill, that's 2.5 hours just waiting around, which I guess may or may not be a lot of time for others. And just using the Costco price, looks like we spend $1700/year on gas.

If we had a Model Y instead of the Forester, it would just be a few seconds to plug in without any waiting around or any mental space to even consider what is a convenient place to refuel. And cost-wise, it would only be around $300/year extra for electricity, so perhaps we should factor in saving $1400/year when purchasing (plus more savings on maintenance, etc.)

I suppose on the other hand, waiting around at Costco is the norm whether that's getting gas or eating samples or checking out, so people don't really think of it as an extra hassle. But similar to how we moved out of the California Bay Area where we spent hours commuting every day without hassle, once we moved somewhere without a commute, we definitely wouldn't want to go back to how things were before.

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HomerJ
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:01 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm
The electric motor turns the wheels... the gas generator is just to recharge the battery. Not the little battery in ICE cars, the big battery in the EV car.

Maybe it's not feasible. Too bad...
So instead of having:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A large battery to power the electric motor

...You would have:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A smaller battery to power the electric motor
3) A gas generator to recharge the battery
4) A fuel tank to store the gas used by the generator
5) Everything that goes with gas engines (intakes, air filters, exhaust, catalytic converter, oil, coolant, ...)
6) Increased maintenance costs due to the ICE engine (oil changes, smog checks)
7) Weaker acceleration. The smaller battery provides less peak current than a large one.
No, you wouldn't need a gas engine... I'm just talking about a generator to recharge the battery...

I may be wrong, a generator may not charge fast enough enough to keep a Tesla battery bank charged.... but why do you guys keep bringing up gas engine stuff?

I'm talking about a pure EV vehicle that has a gas generator in the back. If that's not possible, fine, but I'm not talking about a gas engine.
The J stands for Jay

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HomerJ
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by HomerJ » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:03 pm

harikaried wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:24 pm
I suppose on the other hand, waiting around at Costco is the norm whether that's getting gas or eating samples or checking out, so people don't really think of it as an extra hassle. But similar to how we moved out of the California Bay Area where we spent hours commuting every day without hassle, once we moved somewhere without a commute, we definitely wouldn't want to go back to how things were before.
I think people in California have no idea how the rest of us live, in cities that don't have a billion people. :)
The J stands for Jay

EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:55 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm
investor997 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:01 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm
The electric motor turns the wheels... the gas generator is just to recharge the battery. Not the little battery in ICE cars, the big battery in the EV car.

Maybe it's not feasible. Too bad...
So instead of having:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A large battery to power the electric motor

...You would have:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A smaller battery to power the electric motor
3) A gas generator to recharge the battery
4) A fuel tank to store the gas used by the generator
5) Everything that goes with gas engines (intakes, air filters, exhaust, catalytic converter, oil, coolant, ...)
6) Increased maintenance costs due to the ICE engine (oil changes, smog checks)
7) Weaker acceleration. The smaller battery provides less peak current than a large one.
No, you wouldn't need a gas engine... I'm just talking about a generator to recharge the battery...

I may be wrong, a generator may not charge fast enough enough to keep a Tesla battery bank charged.... but why do you guys keep bringing up gas engine stuff?

I'm talking about a pure EV vehicle that has a gas generator in the back. If that's not possible, fine, but I'm not talking about a gas engine.
Like is said before, I believe the BMW i3 is the car you are talking about. An electric car that carries around its own generator to recharge the battery. The gas engine generator is an option called range extender.

sfnerd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by sfnerd » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:54 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm
investor997 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:01 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm
The electric motor turns the wheels... the gas generator is just to recharge the battery. Not the little battery in ICE cars, the big battery in the EV car.

Maybe it's not feasible. Too bad...
So instead of having:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A large battery to power the electric motor

...You would have:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A smaller battery to power the electric motor
3) A gas generator to recharge the battery
4) A fuel tank to store the gas used by the generator
5) Everything that goes with gas engines (intakes, air filters, exhaust, catalytic converter, oil, coolant, ...)
6) Increased maintenance costs due to the ICE engine (oil changes, smog checks)
7) Weaker acceleration. The smaller battery provides less peak current than a large one.
No, you wouldn't need a gas engine... I'm just talking about a generator to recharge the battery...

I may be wrong, a generator may not charge fast enough enough to keep a Tesla battery bank charged.... but why do you guys keep bringing up gas engine stuff?

I'm talking about a pure EV vehicle that has a gas generator in the back. If that's not possible, fine, but I'm not talking about a gas engine.
Not sure you understand how a gas generator works. A gas generator includes a gasoline engine, unless you're using a different fuel source. Gasoline engines involve a lot of moving parts, and any generator capable of powering an electric vehicle will have to be fairly big and heavy. This will also be inefficient because you're going to have loss going from gas to electric to mechanical energy.

I have friends who worked on the Volt, and they always said it was a bridge car that would never be economically viable. This why GM going entirely electric in their future vehicles. It just isn't efficient to have the weight of a gasoline apparatus when you will not use it often. Better to just load up with more battery cells.

sfnerd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by sfnerd » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:04 am

sfnerd wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:54 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm
investor997 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:01 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm
The electric motor turns the wheels... the gas generator is just to recharge the battery. Not the little battery in ICE cars, the big battery in the EV car.

Maybe it's not feasible. Too bad...
So instead of having:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A large battery to power the electric motor

...You would have:
1) An electric motor to drive the wheels
2) A smaller battery to power the electric motor
3) A gas generator to recharge the battery
4) A fuel tank to store the gas used by the generator
5) Everything that goes with gas engines (intakes, air filters, exhaust, catalytic converter, oil, coolant, ...)
6) Increased maintenance costs due to the ICE engine (oil changes, smog checks)
7) Weaker acceleration. The smaller battery provides less peak current than a large one.
No, you wouldn't need a gas engine... I'm just talking about a generator to recharge the battery...

I may be wrong, a generator may not charge fast enough enough to keep a Tesla battery bank charged.... but why do you guys keep bringing up gas engine stuff?

I'm talking about a pure EV vehicle that has a gas generator in the back. If that's not possible, fine, but I'm not talking about a gas engine.
Not sure you understand how a gas generator works. A gas generator includes a gasoline engine, unless you're using a different fuel source. Gasoline engines involve a lot of moving parts, and any generator capable of powering an electric vehicle will have to be fairly big and heavy. This will also be inefficient because you're going to have loss going from gas to electric to mechanical energy.

I have friends who worked on the Volt, and they always said it was a bridge car that would never be economically viable. This why GM going entirely electric in their future vehicles. It just isn't efficient to have the weight of a gasoline apparatus when you will not use it often. Better to just load up with more battery cells.
By the way, I think what you want to say is that you wouldn't have a hybrid power train like the Volt, but rather just a charging gasoline engine generator that extends range, as in the i3 like the other poster mentioned. However, this isn't particularly viable, for the reasons listed above.

My parents live in the Midwestern suburbs, and have a Volt and they love it. Barely use the gas engine. I think they'd prefer a Model 3, but the Volt was very cheap since they are being discontinued.

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TimeRunner
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TimeRunner » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:53 am

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm
I'm talking about a pure EV vehicle that has a gas generator in the back. If that's not possible, fine, but I'm not talking about a gas engine.
A gas generator generates a gas. I think you mean a fuel-cell powered vehicle, which generates electricity to power the electric vehicle (EV).
One cannot enlighten the unconscious.

stoptothink
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by stoptothink » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:11 am

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:03 pm
harikaried wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:24 pm
I suppose on the other hand, waiting around at Costco is the norm whether that's getting gas or eating samples or checking out, so people don't really think of it as an extra hassle. But similar to how we moved out of the California Bay Area where we spent hours commuting every day without hassle, once we moved somewhere without a commute, we definitely wouldn't want to go back to how things were before.
I think people in California have no idea how the rest of us live, in cities that don't have a billion people. :)
I visit "home" (LA) 4-6x a year. Every time I do, it becomes more apparent how true your statement is (in a million different ways).

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:43 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:13 am
FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:53 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:34 pm
FoolStreet wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:02 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:40 pm


Heh, I get 300 miles of travel in 2-3 minutes at a gas station.

That's 6000-9000 mph.

Commuting, charging at night, EVs rock... There are some serious trade-offs when traveling long distance though... You guys are okay with the trade-offs, and that's cool. Just don't pretend there's no trade-offs.
I think I mentioned before, the in-car driving experience of driver assist technology more than makes up for any trade-offs.

But, the reality is that a typical gas station stop will include the 2-3 minutes of gassing up, paying $4-5 per gallon ($40-80), then pulling out and parking so that you can run inside and use the restroom, then maybe buy a coffee or energy drink, then maybe grab some french fries at mcdonalds or wait in line at In n Out, or whatever food. You'll probably eat the food in the car. That stop was not really 2-3 minutes. It was probably closer to 15-20min. Not really a single stop, but a series of micro stops. God forbid if you want to take a few minutes to stretch your legs or let your pet do its business. And a Tesla won't need the first gas stop and the last gas stop (2-3 minutes times two, so 6 minutes) across any stops you make during the trip.

Yeah, if you need to do the Canonball Run, take your ICE. But if you want to drive safely at a very efficient pace, a Tesla does really really well.

HomerJ, not sure where you live, but it is entirely possible that we're talking past ourselves because of geographic differences. If you are driving across Canada, that line is still being built, and Texas supercharger spots I hear are not as pervasive. Whereas, I'm driving up/down Highway 5, so its pretty well built built out for us here on the coasts. It might not be as easy everywhere.

Tesla is rolling out v4 Superchargers as we speak, which will really speed things up.
Your depiction of the "typical gas station stop" most definitely isn't typical of my gas station stop. Having a very fuel efficient ICE vehicle, many of our trips (even the ~600 miles to California about 3x/yr) don't require a single stop for gas. There is no way you can spin it that spending 75min every ~300 miles to fuel up doesn't make long road trips a complete headache for me.
I think we're on the same side here related to fuel efficiency. We are all cheering your choice of a very fuel efficient ICE vehicle. And regardless, noone is judging you. At least, I'm not.

Nevertheless, I was curious about a hypothetical 600 mile trip, so I modeled a 700 mile trip from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles. Not sure if this link will resolve for you.. https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_u ... 3af7a52e46

Its 698miles. 10hrs 19min of driving plus 1hr 38min charging. $48 estimated charging costs for the trip.

For me, I wouldn't even attempt a 10hr drive anymore without serious driver assistance features. I would probably want to spend the night to break that trip into two so I don't fall asleep at the wheel. Or, I would get on the road at 4am and drive through the day. And for a 10hr drive, I would really need a break to get out of the car and stretch and eat at least once, if not twice.
FWIW, I live south of SLC and am not driving to LA. The drive from my home to my best friend's house is exactly 596 miles (I've made it more than a dozen times). I've driven 10hrs+ with no stops more times than I can count, I've driven cross-country 3x with nothing more than gas/restroom stops. Driving is not pleasurable for me, it is to get from one place to another as efficiently as possible, having to stop for 75min every few hours absolutely ruins that for me and my family.

Circa 2024, we are getting an EV, but at this point I can't even consider road tripping in one. We are different people, having to stop for extended periods every few hours and possibly having to travel out of your way to find somewhere to fuel is not a positive for me, no matter how it is twisted.

We're on the same side, I like EVs, I will be buying one and never buying another ICE car, but the complete disregarding of the one nuisance (acting like it is a positive thing) is pretty funny. You know, you can stop and wait around for 75min in an ICE car too, whenever and wherever you want.
Good dialogue. Seems to me th main thing we disagree on, is not EVs, but road trip driving styles. I don’t have the fortitude or risk tolerance to drive 10hrs straight, much less without serious driver assistance features. It works for you. I would utterly fail at being a truck driver.

harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:04 pm

btenny wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:02 pm
You people are missing out on a key reason the Tesla is so expensive. The NUMBER of batteries. A Tesla Model 3 Long Range has 4416 individual cell batteries!!!! … So the simple electric motor ends up not being a big factor in cost or reliability.
Not sure why you consider the battery pack complex but electric motor simple if you're splitting apart the various pieces of a single pack when a motor could be split into the number of wires and magnets and pieces of metal. I agree that Tesla battery packs are complex for safety and reliability and performance, but needing to service one of the thousands of individual battery cell isn't something an owner would need to care about.

But perhaps the actual point you're getting at is that the large amount of batteries needed for high range is a significant portion of the cost of an electric vehicle. Based on numbers from 2018, Tesla individual battery cells were around $150/kWh while a whole pack was around $200/kWh, so a Model 3 Long Range with 75kWh battery has about 30% of its cost just for the batteries. So Tesla is quite incentivized to reduce the cost of the battery to increase profits, and some people think Tesla will reach $100/kWh at the pack level soon especially with their recent acquisitions in the battery space likely in preparation to manufacture batteries in house.

The price of batteries also affects all other electric vehicles too, and Tesla is probably leading the competition in reducing the cost of batteries. The Porsche Taycan Turbo is rated for 201 miles with 93.4kWh and already costs $150k, so maybe Porsche could have increased the battery pack to 175kWh to $200k to compete with Tesla Model S 373 mile range?

Overall with Tesla's low battery costs and expertise in electric motor efficiency means people are getting great value and range with a Tesla especially compared to other electric vehicles.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:55 am

harikaried wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:04 pm
btenny wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:02 pm
You people are missing out on a key reason the Tesla is so expensive. The NUMBER of batteries. A Tesla Model 3 Long Range has 4416 individual cell batteries!!!! … So the simple electric motor ends up not being a big factor in cost or reliability.
Not sure why you consider the battery pack complex but electric motor simple if you're splitting apart the various pieces of a single pack when a motor could be split into the number of wires and magnets and pieces of metal. I agree that Tesla battery packs are complex for safety and reliability and performance, but needing to service one of the thousands of individual battery cell isn't something an owner would need to care about.

But perhaps the actual point you're getting at is that the large amount of batteries needed for high range is a significant portion of the cost of an electric vehicle. Based on numbers from 2018, Tesla individual battery cells were around $150/kWh while a whole pack was around $200/kWh, so a Model 3 Long Range with 75kWh battery has about 30% of its cost just for the batteries. So Tesla is quite incentivized to reduce the cost of the battery to increase profits, and some people think Tesla will reach $100/kWh at the pack level soon especially with their recent acquisitions in the battery space likely in preparation to manufacture batteries in house.

The price of batteries also affects all other electric vehicles too, and Tesla is probably leading the competition in reducing the cost of batteries. The Porsche Taycan Turbo is rated for 201 miles with 93.4kWh and already costs $150k, so maybe Porsche could have increased the battery pack to 175kWh to $200k to compete with Tesla Model S 373 mile range?

Overall with Tesla's low battery costs and expertise in electric motor efficiency means people are getting great value and range with a Tesla especially compared to other electric vehicles.
Thanks for the informative analysis. I never considered the cost of each KW of power. It makes sense why a Nissan Leaf has the range it has at its price point.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:05 am

BuckyBadger wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:05 am
I wanted to pop in to share my experiences with my new model 3 as it relates to gas stations and filling up.

In no particular order, and acknowledging I'm a woman alone at these stops, often with a toddler in a car seat with me.

My normal life passes by several gas stations, all that would be considered easily accessable, and none of which i could get to, from, and pump within the 4 minutes people are claiming. I have to get off the exit, wait for a light, turn, wait for another light, park, exit, swipe a frequent buyers card, swipe a credit card and wait for authorization, pump, replace, get back into the highway... I'm not saying it takes an hour, but it at least takes 10 to 15 minutes. I know that because when i have to stop for gas on the way to work and i forgot to leave early to do it, I'm 15 minutes later than i usually get to work.

There's the emotional labor of keeping track of when i need to get gas and scheduling it around when it works with the baby. I work full time, so sometimes adding 15 minutes to a trip does make a difference with napping or meals or being able to drop her off on the way to work.

Also, the gas stations that are convenient to me are not places where i feel comfortable. The one closer to work was recently roped off by the police because there was a shooting there, and the one closer to me has panhandlers and people running scams there. Usually about 50 percent of the time I'm approached at that gas station.

So for me personally, i started going to a difference gas station that was in a better area. Gas stations aren't usually in the most savory areas. The nicer gas station made my detours for gas closer to 20 minutes.

I didn't realize how much i would appreciate waking up every morning with the equivalent of a full tank, but it's meant more to me than i realized it would. Again, it really decreases emotional labor which is a real problem for many many people.

So just because someone is able to visit a gas station and fill their tank in 2 minutes (which i don't believe) doesn't mean that's everyone's experience is similar.

Also, my 3 was perfect and has had no issues at all. I love it.
Holy Cow! I think it would be in your best interest to move out of this crime infested neighborhood.

I'll describe my morning. I left on time and stopped on the way, on Rt. 30 in Westborough, MA Shell. I got out, leaving the keys in the ignition, feeling quite safe to do so. I ran my Shell/Stop & Shop card, then my credit card and filled the car. 4 minutes and 30 seconds later, I was back on Rt. 30. There was no point on my commute where I felt threatened, or police were photographing a crime scene or I heard bells and guys with masks running from a bank. You may want to move to my neighborhood. While your MPG would go down and perhaps your per mile cost go up, there has never been a car jacking in any of the 2 towns I drive through to get to work. It sounds like the area where your gas station is might have the threat of one.
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psteinx
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by psteinx » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:24 am

BuckyBadger wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:18 am
I don't know about you, but i don't find many gas stations on suburban corners. So my gas station experience had nothing to do with where i live.

And i work in a not great area. But you can't really pick where hospitals are, either.

So thanks for your concern, but i think my anecdote pretty much just says that people don't put gas stations in bucolic areas. Because no one wants a gas station next to their nice house.
From your user ID I'm guessing you're in Wisconsin (Milwaukee area?) but I don't know.

Around here, (suburban St. Louis County, MO), gas stations are readily available, usually on corners. The area is typical suburbia - averaging modestly upscale (but with some variance).

Do people in nice suburbs where you live drive 15+ minutes to the 'hood to get gas?
Last edited by psteinx on Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:29 am

BuckyBadger wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:18 am

I don't know about you, but i don't find many gas stations on suburban corners. So my gas station experience had nothing to do with where i live.

And i work in a not great area. But you can't really pick where hospitals are, either.

So thanks for your concern, but i think my anecdote pretty much just says that people don't put gas stations in bucolic areas. Because no one wants a gas station next to their nice house.
We live in different areas. The gas station I mention is 200 yards from the "cute" center of Westborough, MA. There's a Mobil across the street and a Cumberland Farms gas station 200 yards farther down the road. The area is nice shops from a Dunkin (where in New England isn't there one within a mile of you?), a Regata Deli, Westborough House of Pizza (much more upscale since they built a new building) and lots of other small businesses and restaurants. I usually see people jogging on the sidewalks in the afternoon or hanging around the Red Barn Coffee Shop. Fairly nice 2 deckers on small side streets are just outside the center area, some with nicely kept ginger bread style accents. I didn't mention the CVS, which is just past that Cumberland Farms gas because....well....just like Dunkin's, where in New England isn't there one within a mile of you. I pass 2 other Dunkin's on my trip to work and a building site where they're putting up another CVS. Oh, I didn't mention the 2 Subways. My commute is 5.2 miles.
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by BuckyBadger » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:36 am

psteinx wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:24 am
BuckyBadger wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:18 am
I don't know about you, but i don't find many gas stations on suburban corners. So my gas station experience had nothing to do with where i live.

And i work in a not great area. But you can't really pick where hospitals are, either.

So thanks for your concern, but i think my anecdote pretty much just says that people don't put gas stations in bucolic areas. Because no one wants a gas station next to their nice house.
From your user ID I'm guessing you're in Wisconsin (Milwaukee area?) but I don't know.

Around here, (St. Louis suburbs), gas stations are readily available, usually on corners. The area is typical suburbia - averaging modestly upscale (but with some variance).

Do people in nice suburbs where you live drive 15+ minutes to the 'hood to get gas?
I no longer live in Wisconsin.

Do you really dislike EVs so much that you'd like to turn the direction of this thread into my neighborhood of choice?

Interesting.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:11 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:54 am
The whole characterization of the inconvenience and danger of gas stations in this thread is bizarre.
Our gas station near Boston is not dangerous. I’m glad it no longer is associated with CITGO (Venezuela), but that didn’t stop us from using it.

The fact that I get brownie points for going and filling up my wife’s car indicates to me that it is considered somewhat inconvenient. Since we no longer live in NJ, I don’t have to have someone else operate the pump (also the case in OR, I think). The smell of gasoline on my hands is a bit like the smell of dry-erase markers.
https://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2000/03/20/276360/index.htm wrote:
There are some things you just know are bad for you, like eating cheese fries or driving without a seatbelt. But what about those pungent dry-erase markers that are mainstays in offices and schools? Something that smells this bad must be unhealthy, right?

"What doesn't cause brain damage these days?" asks Brian Droscha, general manager of Markerboard People, makers of dry-erase products for 20 years. Droscha, however, says the markers, which smell like a cross between paint thinner and diesel fuel, pose no health risks. (The odor comes from the alcohol solvent that propels the ink from the marker.) The chemicals in them might be harmful in very large quantities but not in the amount found in a pen. Dr. Barbara McCall, a Maine physician, agrees. While sniffing toxic fumes can damage the liver, lungs, kidneys, and brain, McCall doubts that the markers could be a problem "unless they are purposely misused over a long time."

The fumes may be overpowering, but few gripe, says Joe Lillie, product manager at Sanford, makers of the Expo line. He gets about three smell-related complaints every six months. "I have just as many people that love the odor." Sanford's regulatory chemist Jamie Paulin says the company submits its markers to an independent toxicologist for evaluation. All have been certified nontoxic.

Still, many are wary. Ian Edmundson of Into Networks in Cambridge, Mass., often uses the markers around the office. Not that he is happy about it. "It's not like when you were a kid, and the red ones smelled like cherries." David Carpenter, a teacher in Arizona, hates them so much that he makes his students write on the board: "I don't know if they cause brain damage, but they sure make me woozy."
FWIW, I like the smell of dry-erase markers, but not as much as a previous boss who obsessively sniffed them during presentations.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:18 pm

I fill up my car once every 2-3 weeks. The process takes me less than 5 minutes and I generally don't fear for my life during that process. I will admit that not having to go to a gas station ever again would be nice. Not because of the fear or the time, but because it would be one less thing to be concerned about in my life. We all have had the drive home from work, tired and looking at the gas tank deciding if we have enough for one more round trip or needing to fill up now vs early in the morning on the way to work. It is a minor nuisance but a nuisance non the less. Another item I will be happy to get rid of is getting an oil change. That is several hours wasted out of a day once or twice a year. Either I do it myself which I can do but hate getting under the car, or I have to bring it there and wait, or find something to do with my time. The whole oil change experience is a waste.

I am all for making life simpler. An electric vehicle does that unless it is your only car and you drive very very long distances regularly.

My future holds owning an electric car. It will very likely be the next car I purchase when my current vehicle starts to have issues not worth repairing. I hope during that time either Tesla becomes the reliable car manufacturer it aims to be, some company buys Tesla and makes similar cars reliably, or another manufacturer creates a product that fits my needs. It does not have to be a Tesla, but today Tesla appears to be the only car that comes close to what I would want from an EV at a reasonable price point. I want Tesla to succeed. I want them to become more reliable. I want their batteries to last longer and cheaper to produce. Luckily I do not need a new car today because I would prefer to allow Tesla more time to keep improving or another manufacturer to catch up and be better.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:25 pm

@EnjoyIt, that’s roughly my wife’s position. She might well have bought our family’s second Tesla if her crappy Range Rover had lasted a bit longer, but oh well. Her next car will be an EV, possibly a Porsche if they get serious about EVs. I think it’s strange how the major manufacturers are being dragged to the party even while Tesla is stealing their lunch money. Me, I’m hoping my next car is an EV Volvo and my next truck is a CyberTruck. :sharebeer
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TimeRunner » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:42 pm

I want an EV Miata RF. :beer
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by stoptothink » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:45 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:18 pm
I fill up my car once every 2-3 weeks. The process takes me less than 5 minutes and I generally don't fear for my life during that process. I will admit that not having to go to a gas station ever again would be nice. Not because of the fear or the time, but because it would be one less thing to be concerned about in my life. We all have had the drive home from work, tired and looking at the gas tank deciding if we have enough for one more round trip or needing to fill up now vs early in the morning on the way to work. It is a minor nuisance but a nuisance non the less. Another item I will be happy to get rid of is getting an oil change. That is several hours wasted out of a day once or twice a year. Either I do it myself which I can do but hate getting under the car, or I have to bring it there and wait, or find something to do with my time. The whole oil change experience is a waste.

I am all for making life simpler. An electric vehicle does that unless it is your only car and you drive very very long distances regularly.

My future holds owning an electric car. It will very likely be the next car I purchase when my current vehicle starts to have issues not worth repairing. I hope during that time either Tesla becomes the reliable car manufacturer it aims to be, some company buys Tesla and makes similar cars reliably, or another manufacturer creates a product that fits my needs. It does not have to be a Tesla, but today Tesla appears to be the only car that comes close to what I would want from an EV at a reasonable price point. I want Tesla to succeed. I want them to become more reliable. I want their batteries to last longer and cheaper to produce. Luckily I do not need a new car today because I would prefer to allow Tesla more time to keep improving or another manufacturer to catch up and be better.
This definitely explains my perspective, and I expect that of most people.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:28 pm

Some interesting perspectives! I've owned a Model 3 for 18 months and can say the experience has been so positively disruptive to me that I've decided to dump our 2nd (ice) car in favor of another Tesla; I never expected to be so pleased with a vehicle, to be making financially dubious decisions like I am!

Also, not visiting gas stations is, to us, a major benefit. I don't especially feel unsafe while fueling up but my very petite wife does. Not long ago she was approached by someone asking for "help" just as she put her credit card in the pump and was pressured to hand over $20. No explicit threat, but she wanted that person to step away and didn't have the kind of upbringing required to dispatch them appropriately. With young children often strapped in the back seat she is understandably on alert when she has to stop for gas. Not to mention, we live in Western NY; it may 'only' take 2 min to fuel up, but standing in -7F for 120 seconds in business casual dress is a special kind of hell.

I think people are so conditioned to stopping for gas being the norm it's hard to conceptualize the (admittedly somewhat minor) benefit. Imagine a new cellphone was released that lasted 5 days, but you couldn't charge at home or work or your car; instead you had to stop at readily available commercial charging stations and hold it up against an outdoor charging pad for a couple minutes. I'm not saying there aren't use cases for such a device but I'd be surprised if many people would make the switch.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by rocketfast » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:44 pm

I have lived near downtown Los Angeles, where going to gas station during non-peak hours was a risky affair (for a man). You were almost guaranteed to be approached by a homeless man for money. Even in Silicon valley, there have been attempts at purse snatching, car hijacking etc in gas stations with targets generally being women - it is not a normal occurrence, but does happen. I can totally see how avoiding gas stations is a huge plus for women in many parts of this country.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by EnjoyIt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:46 pm

rocketfast wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:44 pm
I have lived near downtown Los Angeles, where going to gas station during non-peak hours was a risky affair (for a man). You were almost guaranteed to be approached by a homeless man for money. Even in Silicon valley, there have been attempts at purse snatching, car hijacking etc in gas stations with targets generally being women - it is not a normal occurrence, but does happen. I can totally see how avoiding gas stations is a huge plus for women in many parts of this country.
To be on the safe side, my wife carries a pistol. Hopefully she never needs it though I am very glad she knows how to use it.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by SpaghettiMonster » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm

I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by btenny » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm

This long discussion about gas stations is enlightening. I forgot all my history with gas fill ups since I retired. I live in a very nice suburb of Phoenix and we have several gas stations close by. So the gas stations are clean and safe and easy to get to going to or from work. BUT my wife never stops for gas now and seldom when she worked. She just does not like to do that task. She does not like the gas smell and she claimed she got a little of that smell on her hands or clothes. So about every week or so she would ask me me to go out after work and fill her car. So in my case gas fill ups took about 20-30 minutes every week when I had to go out and drive to a gas station and fill up and then drive back home.

So I guess that fill up at home is MAJOR advantage for owning a Tesla for some people.

Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?

TheCowbell
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:03 pm

SpaghettiMonster wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm
I wonder how that works from the eyes of a criminal or a beggar. If you’re getting gas, I have about 2 minutes to hit you up for money. If you’re at a charger, I have 20-30 minutes to size you up and work you over.
You typically aren't standing at 'the nozzle' when at a supercharger, you're in your car watching a movie or running to a restroom, etc.

Also, I've visited a charger exactly twice in 18 months. Unless you're driving 300mi+ regularly, that'll be most people.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm

btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm
Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:22 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:11 pm
btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm
Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We don’t have 2 Teslas (yet), but except in rare circumstances, I wouldn’t expect to have to charge daily, so I think my wife and I could just agree that she charges on odd days and I do so on even days.

We used our existing garage panel, but we have a lot of electricity (400A service) at our house. I guess whether or not you need an electric panel upgrade depends on your personal circumstances (ETA: service and desired charging amperage), but there isn’t a “special” one.
We also have two Teslas, and share the charger, as daily driving is short so no need to charge every day. To answer Benny's question more fully, one could always hook up to Tesla Wall Chargers in tandem and they will share one electrical line (preferably 240v), and charge one car at a time.

fwiw: our house only had a 100 amp box, so we had an electrician install a sub-panel and separate 60 amp line into the garage for EV charging. It's a simple job for any licensed electrician.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by TheCowbell » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:29 pm

btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm

Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
You can share chargers (I charge mine every few days) or put in a 2nd charger and if it's Tesla's chargers they load balance; ie if you have a 60A circuit it'll divvy up 30/30 when both are charging simultaneously or give full access to one if appropriate.

Many people make do with a 20A 240v. Remember, when you can charge overnight do you care if it takes you 3 hours or 9 hours?

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Kevin M » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:54 pm

btenny wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:01 pm
Do people who have two Teslas have two chargers in their garage? Does the house have to be updated with a special electric panel to support two Tesla home chargers?
We usually charge our daily-driver Tesla on a Tesla wall connector (HPWC), and our "trip" Tesla on a 120V circuit. The latter is usually charged to the desired state of charge well before we use it, even though it only charges at 1 kW. We typically use the "trip" Tesla every 2-3 days, for freeway trips longer than 20 minutes or so, which usually are visits to the kids/grandkids who live 20-30 minutes away.

If we get home from one of our "trips", and know we're doing another one the next day, we'll plug the freeway Tesla into the wall connector, as much for convenience as anything else, since it's in the driveway behind where the other one is parked to charge at 120V.

Honestly, given the amount we drive when not traveling (when of course we use superchargers), we probably could get by with just 120V for both Teslas, but it's nice to know we can charge much faster if necessary.

Our original electrical panel was insufficient to install even one HPWC, so we had to upgrade it when we bought the first Tesla. It's not a matter of a "specific panel", but just having enough amps. I considered adding a second HPWC for the 2nd Tesla, using one of the schemes described by others, but we decided to just try and get by using 120V instead, and that has worked out perfectly. For folks that drive two Teslas much more than we do, they might need two HPWCs.

Kevin
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Misenplace » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:08 pm

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wrongfunds
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:35 pm

TheCowbell wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:28 pm
Some interesting perspectives! I've owned a Model 3 for 18 months and can say the experience has been so positively disruptive to me that I've decided to dump our 2nd (ice) car in favor of another Tesla; I never expected to be so pleased with a vehicle, to be making financially dubious decisions like I am!

Also, not visiting gas stations is, to us, a major benefit. I don't especially feel unsafe while fueling up but my very petite wife does. Not long ago she was approached by someone asking for "help" just as she put her credit card in the pump and was pressured to hand over $20. No explicit threat, but she wanted that person to step away and didn't have the kind of upbringing required to dispatch them appropriately. With young children often strapped in the back seat she is understandably on alert when she has to stop for gas. Not to mention, we live in Western NY; it may 'only' take 2 min to fuel up, but standing in -7F for 120 seconds in business casual dress is a special kind of hell.

I think people are so conditioned to stopping for gas being the norm it's hard to conceptualize the (admittedly somewhat minor) benefit. Imagine a new cellphone was released that lasted 5 days, but you couldn't charge at home or work or your car; instead you had to stop at readily available commercial charging stations and hold it up against an outdoor charging pad for a couple minutes. I'm not saying there aren't use cases for such a device but I'd be surprised if many people would make the switch.
I wish I could find the link but just imagine having to put little gas in your cellphone or having to pull a cord to start the tiny gasoline engine on your Cuisinart blender! There *really* are (were?) those tiny engines in RC flying hobby arena where one used tiny dropper to fill them up.

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