travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

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EddyB
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by EddyB » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:30 pm

beehivehave wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:21 pm
EddyB wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:46 pm
beehivehave wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:23 am
You are 75% less likely to be a homicide victim (including terrorism) in the most "dangerous" country in Europe (France) than in the US.
The difference is 40 deaths per million per year. (Of course, if you aren't a minority living in a big US city, that rate goes down a bit.)
Your chances of dying from a plane crash are .36 per million trips (.72 in a million roundtrips).
For a week vacation the odds are about a wash, more than that it is probably safer just being in Europe.
I’m not sure what your source is, but I think there are several European countries with higher homicide rates than France (assuming that’s your metric for “dangerous”), e.g., Latvia and Hungary, even if you don’t think calling Russia and Ukraine “European” is entirely useful. Of course, the OP was about France, so your real point is fair.
You are right about Russia and Ukraine, but not Latvia and Hungary according to this source:
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indica ... 5/rankings
Not sure what you’re seeing, but that puts France at 1.3 intentional homicides per 100,000 people, vs. Hungary’s 2.5 and Latvia’s 4.2. All better than the U.S. of course.

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Bernard
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by Bernard » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 pm

As an American, I would not travel to Iran right now with a sign "Gay and Proud of it" around my neck, while burning Korans at a public place, but short of that, I wouldn't hesitate to travel to any place in the world. In fact, there are TONS of YouTube video out there from Americans who travel through Iran, Iraq, and Syria all the time.

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beyou
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by beyou » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:58 pm

A family member is traveling across Europe right now. He had a great time in London and Paris and plans to continue traveling, regardless of world events. his biggest problems were the train strike in Paris, and higher than expected costs even “off season”.

Unladen_Swallow
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by Unladen_Swallow » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:42 am

I just booked a holiday to Italy, and plan a trip to the UK before that.

I hope to enjoy it. I am not worrying.
"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

IMO
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by IMO » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:57 am

Bernard wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 pm
As an American, I would not travel to Iran right now with a sign "Gay and Proud of it" around my neck, while burning Korans at a public place, but short of that, I wouldn't hesitate to travel to any place in the world. In fact, there are TONS of YouTube video out there from Americans who travel through Iran, Iraq, and Syria all the time.
Geography isn't a strong point of mine, but I believe Iran, Iraq, and Syria are not Europe like OP is asking? Do you regularly travel with a sign "Gay and Proud of it" around your neck, while burning Korans in public places? :sharebeer

DiploInvestor
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by DiploInvestor » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:28 am

Matigas wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:27 pm
Valuethinker wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:11 pm
junior wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:13 am
gips wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:39 pm
I've always ignored the chance of a terrorist attack when traveling as a very low probability event. We're starting to consider winter travel to europe and I'm sure we'll be easy to identify as Americans. I don't believe we have cause for concern but thought to see if middle east tensions have given anyone pause to travel outside the U.S?

best,
Europe is very safe, probably safer than the U.S. But if you are really concerned can't you just buy shirts or hats with the Canadian flag on them and tell people you are Canadian?
Fortunately the eastern European Ak47s beloved of terrorists in France are programmed not to shoot Canadians ;-).

And it's well known that the kitchen knives used in recent London terrorist attacks bounce off Canadian plaid shirts ;-).
I guess the 63 Canucks killed in the downed Ukrainian airliner were not waving the maple leaf as furiously as needed.
Too soon... :|
"History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes." -- Mark Twain

beehivehave
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by beehivehave » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:09 am

EddyB wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:30 pm
beehivehave wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:21 pm
EddyB wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:46 pm
beehivehave wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:23 am
You are 75% less likely to be a homicide victim (including terrorism) in the most "dangerous" country in Europe (France) than in the US.
The difference is 40 deaths per million per year. (Of course, if you aren't a minority living in a big US city, that rate goes down a bit.)
Your chances of dying from a plane crash are .36 per million trips (.72 in a million roundtrips).
For a week vacation the odds are about a wash, more than that it is probably safer just being in Europe.
I’m not sure what your source is, but I think there are several European countries with higher homicide rates than France (assuming that’s your metric for “dangerous”), e.g., Latvia and Hungary, even if you don’t think calling Russia and Ukraine “European” is entirely useful. Of course, the OP was about France, so your real point is fair.
You are right about Russia and Ukraine, but not Latvia and Hungary according to this source:
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indica ... 5/rankings
Not sure what you’re seeing, but that puts France at 1.3 intentional homicides per 100,000 people, vs. Hungary’s 2.5 and Latvia’s 4.2. All better than the U.S. of course.
Sorry, I misunderstood, thought you said higher than US, not France.

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nedsaid
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by nedsaid » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:59 am

Artsdoctor wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:59 pm
nedsaid wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:49 am
Artsdoctor wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:35 pm
gips wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:39 pm
I've always ignored the chance of a terrorist attack when traveling as a very low probability event. We're starting to consider winter travel to europe and I'm sure we'll be easy to identify as Americans. I don't believe we have cause for concern but thought to see if middle east tensions have given anyone pause to travel outside the U.S?

best,
Unfortunately, this is something we all have to live with but it's really not new. You have to live a full life. The first time I was in the UK in the 1970's, there were coordinated IRA attacks. I was in NYC the week before 9/11, back in London shortly after the 3/3 attacks, and was in Christchurch just before the massive earthquake. You can't anticipate these things--you need to lead a full life and just accept the unpredictable nature of traveling.
Wow. Announce in advance your travel plans and I will avoid those places. :wink:
Oh c'mon, now. If you travel over many decades to several continents, you're going to see things! What about all of those reporters?!? Diplomats? Doctors Without Borders? Missionaries?

You can't just stay in Sedona all the time! :shock:
Actually, I have never been to Sedona. I have been to Europe five times including London and Paris. Paris suffered those awful ISIS attacks back in 2016.
A fool and his money are good for business.

mrsbetsy
Posts: 203
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by mrsbetsy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:35 pm

We won a trip to Jerusalem this year - top sales.

We gave it away because I just couldn't make myself do it. Probably a really stupid fear, but with a 22 year old special needs son with autism, I often weigh the risk vs reward equation.

We all have to decide what to do based on our personal situation.

We are going to England/Scotland in a few months. Not sure why I think I'll be safer there, but I do.

:sharebeer that we all stay safe.

sawhorse
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by sawhorse » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:49 am

I wouldn't worry about being killed for being American. I would instead worry about being robbed for being a tourist. Barcelona, Rome, Prague, and Paris are bad for tourist robbery. Like really really bad. Speaking from personal and immediate family experience. I've heard Madrid and Athens are bad too. The thieves are incredibly sophisticated and organized. Be especially careful in subways and stations.

Valuethinker
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:56 am

mrsbetsy wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:35 pm
We won a trip to Jerusalem this year - top sales.

We gave it away because I just couldn't make myself do it. Probably a really stupid fear, but with a 22 year old special needs son with autism, I often weigh the risk vs reward equation.

We all have to decide what to do based on our personal situation.

We are going to England/Scotland in a few months. Not sure why I think I'll be safer there, but I do.

:sharebeer that we all stay safe.
I think you would have been fine.

However given Special Needs I can understand your reticence.

English is at least the first language here.

UpperNwGuy
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by UpperNwGuy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:01 am

sawhorse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:49 am
I wouldn't worry about being killed for being American. I would instead worry about being robbed for being a tourist. Barcelona, Rome, Prague, and Paris are bad for tourist robbery. Like really really bad. Speaking from personal and immediate family experience. I've heard Madrid and Athens are bad too. The thieves are incredibly sophisticated and organized. Be especially careful in subways and stations.
I have recently been to 4 of the 6 cities you listed, and I would have to disagree with your assessment. If you take reasonable precautions, you will be safe in Barcelona, Rome, Paris, or Madrid, including the subways. I haven't been to Prague or Athens.

sawhorse
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by sawhorse » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:12 am

UpperNwGuy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:01 am
sawhorse wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:49 am
I wouldn't worry about being killed for being American. I would instead worry about being robbed for being a tourist. Barcelona, Rome, Prague, and Paris are bad for tourist robbery. Like really really bad. Speaking from personal and immediate family experience. I've heard Madrid and Athens are bad too. The thieves are incredibly sophisticated and organized. Be especially careful in subways and stations.
I have recently been to 4 of the 6 cities you listed, and I would have to disagree with your assessment. If you take reasonable precautions, you will be safe in Barcelona, Rome, Paris, or Madrid, including the subways. I haven't been to Prague or Athens.
It depends what you mean by safe. Not physically harmed. But without your wallet (pocket was slashed while walking so that the wallet fell to the ground), phone (snatched out of hands while using), camera (snatched out of hands while using with a police officer looking on who saw it and shrugged his shoulders), and wallet again (ambushed on crowded Métro).

I did a search for worst pickpocketing cities, and the ones I listed were all there, so it's not just my perspective. Of course everyone's personal experience will vary.
Last edited by sawhorse on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

jb1
Posts: 339
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Location: NC

Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by jb1 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:13 am

If you’re concerned about terrorist attacks, go to Poland, Hungary, Czech.

On top of that the people are beautiful and everything is super cheap.

Church Lady
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Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by Church Lady » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:30 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:16 am
Church Lady wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:08 pm
gips wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:39 pm
I'm sure we'll be easy to identify as Americans

You forgot the top 2: physical size and voice volume.
Also wearing hiking shoes in a city is a sign.
Oh, I don't know about that. Before a trip to Italy -- stylish Italy --
a Danish friend told me to wear hiking boots all the time. I insisted
on street shoes. When I got to Italy, all the hostelers were wearing ...
hiking boots. It was pretty easy to pick out the hostelers from the
locals. Hostelers were literally from all over the world.

I had made a conscious effort to pack 'local' clothing, but laughed at myself
when I got to Europe. You can't hide your Americaness. It's in the way
you walk, the way you talk, and in the bogus Euro outfits you bought.

So be American if that's what you are. 8-) Avoid discussing politics. Use
usual precautions and be a little paranoid about being pick pocketed.

Have a great trip!
Why would you want to hide the fact that you are from the greatest country ever?
Because we Americans are the greatest targets for crime when traveling abroad!
He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.

manatee2005
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:17 pm

Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by manatee2005 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:07 pm

Church Lady wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:30 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:16 am
Church Lady wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:08 pm
gips wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:39 pm
I'm sure we'll be easy to identify as Americans

You forgot the top 2: physical size and voice volume.
Also wearing hiking shoes in a city is a sign.
Oh, I don't know about that. Before a trip to Italy -- stylish Italy --
a Danish friend told me to wear hiking boots all the time. I insisted
on street shoes. When I got to Italy, all the hostelers were wearing ...
hiking boots. It was pretty easy to pick out the hostelers from the
locals. Hostelers were literally from all over the world.

I had made a conscious effort to pack 'local' clothing, but laughed at myself
when I got to Europe. You can't hide your Americaness. It's in the way
you walk, the way you talk, and in the bogus Euro outfits you bought.

So be American if that's what you are. 8-) Avoid discussing politics. Use
usual precautions and be a little paranoid about being pick pocketed.

Have a great trip!
Why would you want to hide the fact that you are from the greatest country ever?
Because we Americans are the greatest targets for crime when traveling abroad!
I dare them to try something with me.

02nz
Posts: 2930
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by 02nz » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:57 am

IMHO traveling to Europe as an American has not become significantly riskier following the latest tensions. Iran and its proxies like Hizbollah have not generally targeted American civilians. On this they are very different from terrorist groups like al-Qaida or ISIS. (One of the unfortunate effects of labeling all extremist groups "terrorist" is that important nuances like this get lost, which is apparent in this thread.)

Now if I were an American diplomat or soldier in say Lebanon, different story.

KyleAAA
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: travel from the U.S. to Europe given geo-political tensions?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:41 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:07 pm
Church Lady wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:30 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:16 am
Church Lady wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:08 pm



You forgot the top 2: physical size and voice volume.
Also wearing hiking shoes in a city is a sign.
Oh, I don't know about that. Before a trip to Italy -- stylish Italy --
a Danish friend told me to wear hiking boots all the time. I insisted
on street shoes. When I got to Italy, all the hostelers were wearing ...
hiking boots. It was pretty easy to pick out the hostelers from the
locals. Hostelers were literally from all over the world.

I had made a conscious effort to pack 'local' clothing, but laughed at myself
when I got to Europe. You can't hide your Americaness. It's in the way
you walk, the way you talk, and in the bogus Euro outfits you bought.

So be American if that's what you are. 8-) Avoid discussing politics. Use
usual precautions and be a little paranoid about being pick pocketed.

Have a great trip!
Why would you want to hide the fact that you are from the greatest country ever?
Because we Americans are the greatest targets for crime when traveling abroad!
I dare them to try something with me.
Really? You wouldn't even notice until they were long gone. They're better at this than you are.

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