Retirement Friendly States

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Glockenspiel
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:20 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by Glockenspiel » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:45 am

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:56 pm
Glockenspiel wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:20 am
Couldn’t pay me to live in almost any of the southeastern states. I’ll be staying in Minnesota, where it’s beautiful, but just cold enough to keep out the riff-raff.
Oh. That's why you are staying, for the natural beauty.
I thought maybe your feet were permanently frozen to the ground.... :P .
Well, the beauty, plus the schools, great state economy/jobs, family/relatives, great park systems, etc.
Last edited by Glockenspiel on Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dandy
Posts: 5999
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by Dandy » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:06 am

Taxes can be a major concern. There are lots of bias about different states and it can be a challenge for many to feel comfortable in a different climate and culture. Many seem to adjust without a hitch. I think the key is what the state has to offer vs what you like. If you like ice fishing then South Carolina is not a good fit, if you like golf it might be. I guess the best advice is to vacation to an intended retirement state and then if it looks promising --rent awhile to make sure. I know a lot of people who happily retired to Florida and many that couldn't take the weather. If you buy in Florida check the cost of hurricane insurance I hear it is very expensive if you can get it.

I live in a high tax state. Lucky I can afford it --somewhat due to higher salaries paid during my working years. Near my children, near dozens of great restaurants, decent climate, and access to lots of near by cultural sites. I would probably move only if both my children moved since being near family is a high priority.

a_movable_life
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by a_movable_life » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:47 am

mpnret wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:28 pm
LOLC2k wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:48 pm
PA doesn't tax social security, and all 401k/IRA contributions are taxed going in, not out. So even with state and local income taxes that means retirement income is basically untaxed, unless you have a job. I just realized they don't even tax private or public pensions! So yeah, essentially no income tax here for retirement intents.
I'm definetly considering PA. As long as you are retired you can consider it a no income tax state. Only drawback is they have a stiff inheritance tax even for direct descendants. So my plan is a lot of lifetime giving or getting back across the river to NJ to die.
I as a single guy who might never marry have been thinking about ways around that. If married usually us guys die first and then the wife can enact a giving plan.

I wonder if trusts or other structures can help with this.

StealthRabbit
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:25 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by StealthRabbit » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:52 am

cowbman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:57 pm
...
Lots of the FIRE crowd/bloggers are choosing Camas, WA. Funny thing, when I a youth, I was really into Geography. I was trying to find out where to live to minimize taxes, and I quickly narrowed it down to Vancouver, WA for the reasons outlined above. Enjoy!
Camas / Vancouver, WA...
10 min to GREAT airport (PDX) helps to mitigate 'close to family' / friends & desire to travel needs. I'm GONE a lot (during this early season of retirement).

I really enjoy having 20+ colleges and universities within 30 min. (lots of activities and presentations)
Nice gardens and gardening!
1 hr to coast, < 1 hr to mtns, < 10 min to recreation. Plenty of medical, intersection of 2 major highways + rail (N-S & E-W)

One item that significantly altered my relocation plans was home price equity gain / stabilization during retirement.
While I desired to return to no income tax WY, the housing stability if very uncertain (Energy state). Sometimes you can get stuck not being able to sell for 10+ yrs (tough to settle estate).

Equity gain (10%+) easily covers my crazy WA property taxes (up from $3 / day to $46 / day). (double edged sword)
My Texas properties are in a desirable destination area but do not see the equity gains of PNW. (~3-5%)

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dm200
Posts: 22286
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: Washington DC area

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by dm200 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:02 pm

craimund wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:43 am
Theseus wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:57 pm
seclawyer wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:58 pm
I’m in Chicago and I’m very close to making the same decision. Have personal history in Charlotte, but prefer the Triangle for easing into retirement. Also looking at Loudoun County Virginia and Nashville / Franklin, but Raleigh / Cary are in the lead and likely to win. Reasoning very similar to yours. Driven by data, not anecdotes or emotion. Where in the Triangle have you settled and have your expectations been validated so far?
I live in Loudoun County , VA. I love it. I am early retired and still raising kids. But I am not sure it is a good place to move to for retirement, but it all depends on your criteria. But jobs are plenty here. Ton of things to do. Good micro brewery scene. Decent wineries. Access to horse country and close to Shenandoah mountains as well as to DC. Highly educated and diverse demographic. Very well managed county government. Our property taxes have gone lower while services are maintained or increased.
Traffic is a major issue for commuters.
I live in Stafford County, VA and I am weighing the benefits of staying here in retirement. Lived here for 25+ years and like the local area but the traffic is horrible and the cost of living, while not quite as high as Loudoun, is up there. While taxes in retirement are reasonable (first $25K in retirement income exempt from state taxation, 5.75% highest marginal income tax rate) I also have concerns with recent state political trends which I believe will lead to higher taxes as well as more needless regulation and eventually crime. It's also miserably hot and humid in the summer.
if you have not already done so, check to see of your County offers any real estate tax breaks ( exemption or deferral) for those under a certain annual income and certain asset levels (not counting value/equity in your house or in retirement accounts). We live in Arlington County and qualify for about 1/2 exemption and 1/2 deferral on our annual $7,000 real estate taxes. Now in semi-retirement - no long commutes - so traffic for us is not a big issue.

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dm200
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Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: Washington DC area

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by dm200 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:05 pm

Some, otherwise high state income tax states, give a real tax break to retirees receiving a pension from the state employee retirement system. Often, local government employees are included in the state retirement system. So - do not assume that in retirement your state income tax rate will be high - although it might be.

NJdad6
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:51 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by NJdad6 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:36 pm

exoilman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:20 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:19 am
Depends.

There are states that are very tax friendly that you couldn't pay me to live in.

I'll be staying in Massachusetts.
+1, staying in N.J. :D

Yikes! We are counting the days until we can leave NJ. It was nice while we are here but the high cost of living, taxes, and poorly run government is why we want out. Rated worst state for business (I.e. job growth) and worst state to retire in. Trying to relocate kids first so they don’t end up here.

Next stop probably won’t be where we retire so paying attention to the recommendations here.

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dm200
Posts: 22286
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: Washington DC area

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by dm200 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:29 pm

On average, I suspect that the states with overall higher total tax amounts would tend to be the states that may tend to offer more financial benefits to some retirees.

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JoeRetire
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:03 pm

MathIsMyWayr wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:29 pm
This.
Looking up someone else is the common problem for older people. They become spectators of life, not participants. They have to live their own lives, not somebody else's. Don't talk about your children or grandchildren, but about yourself. At the end of the day, it is your life that counts. When is the last time Jack Bogle talked about his children/ grandchildren?
Some folks enjoy the company of their children and grandchildren more than others.

Do what you enjoy doing, where you enjoy it, and with whom you enjoy it. Talk about what you enjoy. Don't worry about what others think. Don't let others tell you what counts and what doesn't.

For me, that's what a great retirement is all about. Your mileage may vary.
Don't be a lemming.

cowbman
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by cowbman » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:43 pm

StealthRabbit wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:52 am
cowbman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:57 pm
...
Lots of the FIRE crowd/bloggers are choosing Camas, WA. Funny thing, when I a youth, I was really into Geography. I was trying to find out where to live to minimize taxes, and I quickly narrowed it down to Vancouver, WA for the reasons outlined above. Enjoy!
Camas / Vancouver, WA...
10 min to GREAT airport (PDX) helps to mitigate 'close to family' / friends & desire to travel needs. I'm GONE a lot (during this early season of retirement).

I really enjoy having 20+ colleges and universities within 30 min. (lots of activities and presentations)
Nice gardens and gardening!
1 hr to coast, < 1 hr to mtns, < 10 min to recreation. Plenty of medical, intersection of 2 major highways + rail (N-S & E-W)

One item that significantly altered my relocation plans was home price equity gain / stabilization during retirement.
While I desired to return to no income tax WY, the housing stability if very uncertain (Energy state). Sometimes you can get stuck not being able to sell for 10+ yrs (tough to settle estate).

Equity gain (10%+) easily covers my crazy WA property taxes (up from $3 / day to $46 / day). (double edged sword)
My Texas properties are in a desirable destination area but do not see the equity gains of PNW. (~3-5%)
Are your WA or TX property taxes worse? TX property taxes are quite high.

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willthrill81
Posts: 13900
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:54 pm

cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:43 pm
StealthRabbit wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:52 am
cowbman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:57 pm
...
Lots of the FIRE crowd/bloggers are choosing Camas, WA. Funny thing, when I a youth, I was really into Geography. I was trying to find out where to live to minimize taxes, and I quickly narrowed it down to Vancouver, WA for the reasons outlined above. Enjoy!
Camas / Vancouver, WA...
10 min to GREAT airport (PDX) helps to mitigate 'close to family' / friends & desire to travel needs. I'm GONE a lot (during this early season of retirement).

I really enjoy having 20+ colleges and universities within 30 min. (lots of activities and presentations)
Nice gardens and gardening!
1 hr to coast, < 1 hr to mtns, < 10 min to recreation. Plenty of medical, intersection of 2 major highways + rail (N-S & E-W)

One item that significantly altered my relocation plans was home price equity gain / stabilization during retirement.
While I desired to return to no income tax WY, the housing stability if very uncertain (Energy state). Sometimes you can get stuck not being able to sell for 10+ yrs (tough to settle estate).

Equity gain (10%+) easily covers my crazy WA property taxes (up from $3 / day to $46 / day). (double edged sword)
My Texas properties are in a desirable destination area but do not see the equity gains of PNW. (~3-5%)
Are your WA or TX property taxes worse? TX property taxes are quite high.
We live in eastern WA, and our property taxes are 1.19% of assessed value, which is usually significantly below market value even though state law says that market value is the basis for determination.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

texasdiver
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:50 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 pm

cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:43 pm
StealthRabbit wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:52 am
cowbman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:57 pm
...
Lots of the FIRE crowd/bloggers are choosing Camas, WA. Funny thing, when I a youth, I was really into Geography. I was trying to find out where to live to minimize taxes, and I quickly narrowed it down to Vancouver, WA for the reasons outlined above. Enjoy!
Camas / Vancouver, WA...
10 min to GREAT airport (PDX) helps to mitigate 'close to family' / friends & desire to travel needs. I'm GONE a lot (during this early season of retirement).

I really enjoy having 20+ colleges and universities within 30 min. (lots of activities and presentations)
Nice gardens and gardening!
1 hr to coast, < 1 hr to mtns, < 10 min to recreation. Plenty of medical, intersection of 2 major highways + rail (N-S & E-W)

One item that significantly altered my relocation plans was home price equity gain / stabilization during retirement.
While I desired to return to no income tax WY, the housing stability if very uncertain (Energy state). Sometimes you can get stuck not being able to sell for 10+ yrs (tough to settle estate).

Equity gain (10%+) easily covers my crazy WA property taxes (up from $3 / day to $46 / day). (double edged sword)
My Texas properties are in a desirable destination area but do not see the equity gains of PNW. (~3-5%)
Are your WA or TX property taxes worse? TX property taxes are quite high.
We moved from Waco TX to Camas WA in 2016. The tax rate in Camas is about half that in Waco but the property values are about double. So the actual property tax were nearly identical when we moved.

Edit. I just looked up the 2019 taxes. The Waco home has appreciated considerably so prices aren't double anymore. I guess that's the Fixer Upper effect. It was about $350k when we sold it 4 years ago. The homes are similar size in similarly affluent neighborhoods so the price difference is mainly location. Obviously Texas taxes are substantially higher. Both of these homes are in the city limits and taxes are with the homestead exemption. Would be about a thousand more in each case for a rental. I don't know how Waco tax rates compare to other parts of Texas. I would guess pretty comparable.

Camas: 2019 appraised value: $607,999 2019 taxes are: $7,405.95
Waco: 2019 appraised value: $418,470 2019 taxes are: $9,960.93

cowbman
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by cowbman » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 pm
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:43 pm
StealthRabbit wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:52 am
cowbman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:57 pm
...
Lots of the FIRE crowd/bloggers are choosing Camas, WA. Funny thing, when I a youth, I was really into Geography. I was trying to find out where to live to minimize taxes, and I quickly narrowed it down to Vancouver, WA for the reasons outlined above. Enjoy!
Camas / Vancouver, WA...
10 min to GREAT airport (PDX) helps to mitigate 'close to family' / friends & desire to travel needs. I'm GONE a lot (during this early season of retirement).

I really enjoy having 20+ colleges and universities within 30 min. (lots of activities and presentations)
Nice gardens and gardening!
1 hr to coast, < 1 hr to mtns, < 10 min to recreation. Plenty of medical, intersection of 2 major highways + rail (N-S & E-W)

One item that significantly altered my relocation plans was home price equity gain / stabilization during retirement.
While I desired to return to no income tax WY, the housing stability if very uncertain (Energy state). Sometimes you can get stuck not being able to sell for 10+ yrs (tough to settle estate).

Equity gain (10%+) easily covers my crazy WA property taxes (up from $3 / day to $46 / day). (double edged sword)
My Texas properties are in a desirable destination area but do not see the equity gains of PNW. (~3-5%)
Are your WA or TX property taxes worse? TX property taxes are quite high.
We moved from Waco TX to Camas WA in 2016. The tax rate in Camas is about half that in Waco but the property values are about double. So the actual property tax were nearly identical when we moved.

Edit. I just looked up the 2019 taxes. The Waco home has appreciated considerably so prices aren't double anymore. I guess that's the Fixer Upper effect. It was about $350k when we sold it 4 years ago. The homes are similar size in similarly affluent neighborhoods so the price difference is mainly location. Obviously Texas taxes are substantially higher. Both of these homes are in the city limits and taxes are with the homestead exemption. Would be about a thousand more in each case for a rental. I don't know how Waco tax rates compare to other parts of Texas. I would guess pretty comparable.

Camas: 2019 appraised value: $607,999 2019 taxes are: $7,405.95
Waco: 2019 appraised value: $418,470 2019 taxes are: $9,960.93
I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.

TravelforFun
Posts: 1938
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by TravelforFun » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:47 am

cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 pm
We moved from Waco TX to Camas WA in 2016. The tax rate in Camas is about half that in Waco but the property values are about double. So the actual property tax were nearly identical when we moved.

Edit. I just looked up the 2019 taxes. The Waco home has appreciated considerably so prices aren't double anymore. I guess that's the Fixer Upper effect. It was about $350k when we sold it 4 years ago. The homes are similar size in similarly affluent neighborhoods so the price difference is mainly location. Obviously Texas taxes are substantially higher. Both of these homes are in the city limits and taxes are with the homestead exemption. Would be about a thousand more in each case for a rental. I don't know how Waco tax rates compare to other parts of Texas. I would guess pretty comparable.

Camas: 2019 appraised value: $607,999 2019 taxes are: $7,405.95
Waco: 2019 appraised value: $418,470 2019 taxes are: $9,960.93
I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
This is the reason retirees should not relocate to states without income taxes because states cover the revenue shortfalls with very high property taxes. I'm retired and the only reason I live here in TX is because our kids and grandkids are all here.

TravelforFun

texasdiver
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:50 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:45 am

cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 pm
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:43 pm
StealthRabbit wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:52 am
cowbman wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:57 pm
...
Lots of the FIRE crowd/bloggers are choosing Camas, WA. Funny thing, when I a youth, I was really into Geography. I was trying to find out where to live to minimize taxes, and I quickly narrowed it down to Vancouver, WA for the reasons outlined above. Enjoy!
Camas / Vancouver, WA...
10 min to GREAT airport (PDX) helps to mitigate 'close to family' / friends & desire to travel needs. I'm GONE a lot (during this early season of retirement).

I really enjoy having 20+ colleges and universities within 30 min. (lots of activities and presentations)
Nice gardens and gardening!
1 hr to coast, < 1 hr to mtns, < 10 min to recreation. Plenty of medical, intersection of 2 major highways + rail (N-S & E-W)

One item that significantly altered my relocation plans was home price equity gain / stabilization during retirement.
While I desired to return to no income tax WY, the housing stability if very uncertain (Energy state). Sometimes you can get stuck not being able to sell for 10+ yrs (tough to settle estate).

Equity gain (10%+) easily covers my crazy WA property taxes (up from $3 / day to $46 / day). (double edged sword)
My Texas properties are in a desirable destination area but do not see the equity gains of PNW. (~3-5%)
Are your WA or TX property taxes worse? TX property taxes are quite high.
We moved from Waco TX to Camas WA in 2016. The tax rate in Camas is about half that in Waco but the property values are about double. So the actual property tax were nearly identical when we moved.

Edit. I just looked up the 2019 taxes. The Waco home has appreciated considerably so prices aren't double anymore. I guess that's the Fixer Upper effect. It was about $350k when we sold it 4 years ago. The homes are similar size in similarly affluent neighborhoods so the price difference is mainly location. Obviously Texas taxes are substantially higher. Both of these homes are in the city limits and taxes are with the homestead exemption. Would be about a thousand more in each case for a rental. I don't know how Waco tax rates compare to other parts of Texas. I would guess pretty comparable.

Camas: 2019 appraised value: $607,999 2019 taxes are: $7,405.95
Waco: 2019 appraised value: $418,470 2019 taxes are: $9,960.93
I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
That was stealth rabbit not me. I have no idea what he is talking about unless he is comparing 1970 to 2019. Or comparing unimproved land to a developed property or something. Looking at the tax records for my own house since it was built in 2006, the taxes have gone from $6,597.47 in 2007 to $7,405.95 in 2019 for a total increase of 12.2% over 12 years. While at the same time the appraised value has gone up 12.8% during that time period. (well, it dipped way down in 2008-2012 and then climbed back up).
Last edited by texasdiver on Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

texasdiver
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:50 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:53 am

TravelforFun wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:47 am
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 pm
We moved from Waco TX to Camas WA in 2016. The tax rate in Camas is about half that in Waco but the property values are about double. So the actual property tax were nearly identical when we moved.

Edit. I just looked up the 2019 taxes. The Waco home has appreciated considerably so prices aren't double anymore. I guess that's the Fixer Upper effect. It was about $350k when we sold it 4 years ago. The homes are similar size in similarly affluent neighborhoods so the price difference is mainly location. Obviously Texas taxes are substantially higher. Both of these homes are in the city limits and taxes are with the homestead exemption. Would be about a thousand more in each case for a rental. I don't know how Waco tax rates compare to other parts of Texas. I would guess pretty comparable.

Camas: 2019 appraised value: $607,999 2019 taxes are: $7,405.95
Waco: 2019 appraised value: $418,470 2019 taxes are: $9,960.93
I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
This is the reason retirees should not relocate to states without income taxes because states cover the revenue shortfalls with very high property taxes. I'm retired and the only reason I live here in TX is because our kids and grandkids are all here.

TravelforFun
Washington has no state income tax either. Looking across the river to Oregon, I pulled a random similar-valued house off Zillow from a similar suburban neighborhood in Beaverton OR and the taxes are $9,042 for an appraised value of $620,000. So at least in this one random example, property taxes are higher in income-tax (but no sales tax) Oregon than they are in sales tax (but no income tax) Washington for similar houses in similar neighborhoods in the same metro area.

StealthRabbit
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:25 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by StealthRabbit » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:24 am

cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm

I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
Has much to do with assessor... (and if you make him angry by protesting annually in State Appeals process)
Mine seeks highest possible value and uses 'Sweet spots" (High dollar sales) as comps. Usual valuation increases are 15 - 20% . yr, but for a few yrs (after ER) taxes increased 100% each yr. That adds up VERY fast!

I have 3 investment homes nearby, Different schools, different county, (different assessor) 1/ 5th the taxes on same cost basis of property.

But.. for the math... (over 20+ yrs) same home just worn out, no additional improvements / buildings ....
1) Low acquisition costs... I NEVER buy from a realtor / or something that is already posted for sale, I dig up my own deals (30+ properties) all far below market price.
2) Cost basis to build (myself) $38 / sf ft with lots of stone and built-ins and all natural woodwork, including wood ceiling. (I.e. very nice... assessor thinks so...)
Tax cost basis (replacement value) $300 / sf

3) Property (12 acres) < $20k cost basis
Tax basis $320k (if it burnt down tomorrow I would be taxed on $320k valuation)

4) Levy - was $8.4 / thousand,
now $14.8 / thousand (Because of our GREAT schools :annoyed (homeschooler))

Warning: We get "drone surveillance" every week due to living in a Nationally Protected Scenic area, they compare the photos to tell if you did ANYTHING (outdoors). They also monitor our light emitted from open windows and outdoor lighting. NOTHING can shine OUT, must be subdued (as we are :wink: ). Any violations and a code enforcement officer will be at your door first thing in the morning. Had to learn to live with this.

Property taxes on my Texas places are ~$25 / thousand, BUT they are commonly assessed at < 50% of the FMV, (Which I never pay). Many of them are rural cabins / mobile homes / barndominiums. (i.e. not fully assessed as conventional home). I just bought them for the great views (>1 hr bright ORANGE sunrise this AM) and easy resell and 10%+ Cap Rates (Energy State = high rents from energy workers who may have to move next week) Texas absolutely kills you with ISD (Independent School Districts) 2x what my county property taxes are, and schools are a lot worse than terrible.

I have considered refreshing the book "Building the low tax house" (originally published in 1970s)
1) Maximize Loft and Basement SF
2) Be cautious of your completion schedule (If we don't sheetrock before August, we get one more yr 'building rate' ('incomplete' status) )
3) Use stepping stones / separated pads for sidewalk, rather then continuous pour (I have dozer and excavator so I can make BIG stepping stones)
4) Keep expensive appliances / outbuildings on wheels (I have an entire 'canning kitchen' on wheels) and I weld up some BIG carports / wood
/ tool sheds (all on wheels).
5) Finish out areas (nicely) AFTER permit / inspection.

Property Tax is just one of the 'Gotchas' for my age 49 end of wage income ER... Had to totally change my budgets / cash flows / allocations. (bought 5 additional income properties just to cover increased non-discretionary bills.) Also had to swap all my commercial investment props for residential :x during 2008 crisis (Commercial lending all got 'Called'. Several friends lost $5m+ each by being 'called' on commercial loans)

Healthcare had several $300 / month options, but NONE after ACA. First was increase to $1700, then eventually to $2800 / month (Spouse with a LOT of expensive conditions). That equalled NO insurance.

EddyB
Posts: 1080
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by EddyB » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:58 am

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:53 am
TravelforFun wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:47 am
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 pm
We moved from Waco TX to Camas WA in 2016. The tax rate in Camas is about half that in Waco but the property values are about double. So the actual property tax were nearly identical when we moved.

Edit. I just looked up the 2019 taxes. The Waco home has appreciated considerably so prices aren't double anymore. I guess that's the Fixer Upper effect. It was about $350k when we sold it 4 years ago. The homes are similar size in similarly affluent neighborhoods so the price difference is mainly location. Obviously Texas taxes are substantially higher. Both of these homes are in the city limits and taxes are with the homestead exemption. Would be about a thousand more in each case for a rental. I don't know how Waco tax rates compare to other parts of Texas. I would guess pretty comparable.

Camas: 2019 appraised value: $607,999 2019 taxes are: $7,405.95
Waco: 2019 appraised value: $418,470 2019 taxes are: $9,960.93
I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
This is the reason retirees should not relocate to states without income taxes because states cover the revenue shortfalls with very high property taxes. I'm retired and the only reason I live here in TX is because our kids and grandkids are all here.

TravelforFun
Washington has no state income tax either. Looking across the river to Oregon, I pulled a random similar-valued house off Zillow from a similar suburban neighborhood in Beaverton OR and the taxes are $9,042 for an appraised value of $620,000. So at least in this one random example, property taxes are higher in income-tax (but no sales tax) Oregon than they are in sales tax (but no income tax) Washington for similar houses in similar neighborhoods in the same metro area.
If you’re comparing appraised values, you have to consider that Oregon has a law that limits the increase in appraised value, that generally means that the older a home is, the larger the discount from market value to appraised value. My nominal property tax rate isn’t quite as high as Beaverton (although it’s close), but my house’s appraised value is only about 65% of its market value, so the rate on market value is much lower. Of course, I’d need to own a dozen or more houses to make up for the income tax difference....

cowbman
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by cowbman » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:44 pm

StealthRabbit wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:24 am
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm

I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
Has much to do with assessor... (and if you make him angry by protesting annually in State Appeals process)
Mine seeks highest possible value and uses 'Sweet spots" (High dollar sales) as comps. Usual valuation increases are 15 - 20% . yr, but for a few yrs (after ER) taxes increased 100% each yr. That adds up VERY fast!

I have 3 investment homes nearby, Different schools, different county, (different assessor) 1/ 5th the taxes on same cost basis of property.

But.. for the math... (over 20+ yrs) same home just worn out, no additional improvements / buildings ....
1) Low acquisition costs... I NEVER buy from a realtor / or something that is already posted for sale, I dig up my own deals (30+ properties) all far below market price.
2) Cost basis to build (myself) $38 / sf ft with lots of stone and built-ins and all natural woodwork, including wood ceiling. (I.e. very nice... assessor thinks so...)
Tax cost basis (replacement value) $300 / sf

3) Property (12 acres) < $20k cost basis
Tax basis $320k (if it burnt down tomorrow I would be taxed on $320k valuation)

4) Levy - was $8.4 / thousand,
now $14.8 / thousand (Because of our GREAT schools :annoyed (homeschooler))

Warning: We get "drone surveillance" every week due to living in a Nationally Protected Scenic area, they compare the photos to tell if you did ANYTHING (outdoors). They also monitor our light emitted from open windows and outdoor lighting. NOTHING can shine OUT, must be subdued (as we are :wink: ). Any violations and a code enforcement officer will be at your door first thing in the morning. Had to learn to live with this.

Property taxes on my Texas places are ~$25 / thousand, BUT they are commonly assessed at < 50% of the FMV, (Which I never pay). Many of them are rural cabins / mobile homes / barndominiums. (i.e. not fully assessed as conventional home). I just bought them for the great views (>1 hr bright ORANGE sunrise this AM) and easy resell and 10%+ Cap Rates (Energy State = high rents from energy workers who may have to move next week) Texas absolutely kills you with ISD (Independent School Districts) 2x what my county property taxes are, and schools are a lot worse than terrible.

I have considered refreshing the book "Building the low tax house" (originally published in 1970s)
1) Maximize Loft and Basement SF
2) Be cautious of your completion schedule (If we don't sheetrock before August, we get one more yr 'building rate' ('incomplete' status) )
3) Use stepping stones / separated pads for sidewalk, rather then continuous pour (I have dozer and excavator so I can make BIG stepping stones)
4) Keep expensive appliances / outbuildings on wheels (I have an entire 'canning kitchen' on wheels) and I weld up some BIG carports / wood
/ tool sheds (all on wheels).
5) Finish out areas (nicely) AFTER permit / inspection.

Property Tax is just one of the 'Gotchas' for my age 49 end of wage income ER... Had to totally change my budgets / cash flows / allocations. (bought 5 additional income properties just to cover increased non-discretionary bills.) Also had to swap all my commercial investment props for residential :x during 2008 crisis (Commercial lending all got 'Called'. Several friends lost $5m+ each by being 'called' on commercial loans)

Healthcare had several $300 / month options, but NONE after ACA. First was increase to $1700, then eventually to $2800 / month (Spouse with a LOT of expensive conditions). That equalled NO insurance.
Rural Texas is known to have poor schools, with some exceptions. Suburban schools are usually at least average, if not better. My home in Texas had county taxes approximately equal to the ISD tax. Rate was 2.35% for everything in an urban areas with a homestead exemption.

texasdiver
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:50 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:19 pm

cowbman wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:44 pm
StealthRabbit wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:24 am
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm

I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
Has much to do with assessor... (and if you make him angry by protesting annually in State Appeals process)
Mine seeks highest possible value and uses 'Sweet spots" (High dollar sales) as comps. Usual valuation increases are 15 - 20% . yr, but for a few yrs (after ER) taxes increased 100% each yr. That adds up VERY fast!

I have 3 investment homes nearby, Different schools, different county, (different assessor) 1/ 5th the taxes on same cost basis of property.

But.. for the math... (over 20+ yrs) same home just worn out, no additional improvements / buildings ....
1) Low acquisition costs... I NEVER buy from a realtor / or something that is already posted for sale, I dig up my own deals (30+ properties) all far below market price.
2) Cost basis to build (myself) $38 / sf ft with lots of stone and built-ins and all natural woodwork, including wood ceiling. (I.e. very nice... assessor thinks so...)
Tax cost basis (replacement value) $300 / sf

3) Property (12 acres) < $20k cost basis
Tax basis $320k (if it burnt down tomorrow I would be taxed on $320k valuation)

4) Levy - was $8.4 / thousand,
now $14.8 / thousand (Because of our GREAT schools :annoyed (homeschooler))

Warning: We get "drone surveillance" every week due to living in a Nationally Protected Scenic area, they compare the photos to tell if you did ANYTHING (outdoors). They also monitor our light emitted from open windows and outdoor lighting. NOTHING can shine OUT, must be subdued (as we are :wink: ). Any violations and a code enforcement officer will be at your door first thing in the morning. Had to learn to live with this.

Property taxes on my Texas places are ~$25 / thousand, BUT they are commonly assessed at < 50% of the FMV, (Which I never pay). Many of them are rural cabins / mobile homes / barndominiums. (i.e. not fully assessed as conventional home). I just bought them for the great views (>1 hr bright ORANGE sunrise this AM) and easy resell and 10%+ Cap Rates (Energy State = high rents from energy workers who may have to move next week) Texas absolutely kills you with ISD (Independent School Districts) 2x what my county property taxes are, and schools are a lot worse than terrible.

I have considered refreshing the book "Building the low tax house" (originally published in 1970s)
1) Maximize Loft and Basement SF
2) Be cautious of your completion schedule (If we don't sheetrock before August, we get one more yr 'building rate' ('incomplete' status) )
3) Use stepping stones / separated pads for sidewalk, rather then continuous pour (I have dozer and excavator so I can make BIG stepping stones)
4) Keep expensive appliances / outbuildings on wheels (I have an entire 'canning kitchen' on wheels) and I weld up some BIG carports / wood
/ tool sheds (all on wheels).
5) Finish out areas (nicely) AFTER permit / inspection.

Property Tax is just one of the 'Gotchas' for my age 49 end of wage income ER... Had to totally change my budgets / cash flows / allocations. (bought 5 additional income properties just to cover increased non-discretionary bills.) Also had to swap all my commercial investment props for residential :x during 2008 crisis (Commercial lending all got 'Called'. Several friends lost $5m+ each by being 'called' on commercial loans)

Healthcare had several $300 / month options, but NONE after ACA. First was increase to $1700, then eventually to $2800 / month (Spouse with a LOT of expensive conditions). That equalled NO insurance.
Rural Texas is known to have poor schools, with some exceptions. Suburban schools are usually at least average, if not better. My home in Texas had county taxes approximately equal to the ISD tax. Rate was 2.35% for everything in an urban areas with a homestead exemption.
Schools in Texas (like pretty much everywhere else in the US) are simply reflections of their community. Schools in the newer upscale suburbs around the big cities are gorgeous with no expense spared. Olympic size pools, indoor football practice fields, modern science labs, theaters, etc. The pump out national merit scholars and D1 college prospects by the dozen. Schools in poor isolated rural parts of Texas, along the border, and inner cities can be dismal. It's like two different planets. The range from best to worst in Texas is far wider than in many states partly because the wealth gap is wider in Texas but also because there is little state funding for education. It's mostly local.

One thing that makes Texas taxes somewhat higher than elsewhere is the lack of initiative and referendum process in Texas. Anti-tax activists can't collect petitions and put anti-tax initiatives on the ballot like they can in California and Oregon. And bond measures need only a simple majority to pass unlike the 60% threshold in some other states. The only way to get property-tax restrictions in place in Texas is to go through the legislature. And, as conservative as they are, curtailing local property taxes is not really high on their priorities.

Oldschool
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 6:24 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by Oldschool » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:04 pm

Born, raised and worked entire life in Southern California. Retired to Hawaii immediately. No taxes on pension in Hawaii. But money isn’t everything. Left for Montana, no sales tax and a wonderful quality of life.

cowbman
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by cowbman » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:25 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:19 pm
cowbman wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:44 pm
StealthRabbit wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:24 am
cowbman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 pm

I'd like to know more about property taxes going from $3/day to $46/day. That's an enormous increase.
Has much to do with assessor... (and if you make him angry by protesting annually in State Appeals process)
Mine seeks highest possible value and uses 'Sweet spots" (High dollar sales) as comps. Usual valuation increases are 15 - 20% . yr, but for a few yrs (after ER) taxes increased 100% each yr. That adds up VERY fast!

I have 3 investment homes nearby, Different schools, different county, (different assessor) 1/ 5th the taxes on same cost basis of property.

But.. for the math... (over 20+ yrs) same home just worn out, no additional improvements / buildings ....
1) Low acquisition costs... I NEVER buy from a realtor / or something that is already posted for sale, I dig up my own deals (30+ properties) all far below market price.
2) Cost basis to build (myself) $38 / sf ft with lots of stone and built-ins and all natural woodwork, including wood ceiling. (I.e. very nice... assessor thinks so...)
Tax cost basis (replacement value) $300 / sf

3) Property (12 acres) < $20k cost basis
Tax basis $320k (if it burnt down tomorrow I would be taxed on $320k valuation)

4) Levy - was $8.4 / thousand,
now $14.8 / thousand (Because of our GREAT schools :annoyed (homeschooler))

Warning: We get "drone surveillance" every week due to living in a Nationally Protected Scenic area, they compare the photos to tell if you did ANYTHING (outdoors). They also monitor our light emitted from open windows and outdoor lighting. NOTHING can shine OUT, must be subdued (as we are :wink: ). Any violations and a code enforcement officer will be at your door first thing in the morning. Had to learn to live with this.

Property taxes on my Texas places are ~$25 / thousand, BUT they are commonly assessed at < 50% of the FMV, (Which I never pay). Many of them are rural cabins / mobile homes / barndominiums. (i.e. not fully assessed as conventional home). I just bought them for the great views (>1 hr bright ORANGE sunrise this AM) and easy resell and 10%+ Cap Rates (Energy State = high rents from energy workers who may have to move next week) Texas absolutely kills you with ISD (Independent School Districts) 2x what my county property taxes are, and schools are a lot worse than terrible.

I have considered refreshing the book "Building the low tax house" (originally published in 1970s)
1) Maximize Loft and Basement SF
2) Be cautious of your completion schedule (If we don't sheetrock before August, we get one more yr 'building rate' ('incomplete' status) )
3) Use stepping stones / separated pads for sidewalk, rather then continuous pour (I have dozer and excavator so I can make BIG stepping stones)
4) Keep expensive appliances / outbuildings on wheels (I have an entire 'canning kitchen' on wheels) and I weld up some BIG carports / wood
/ tool sheds (all on wheels).
5) Finish out areas (nicely) AFTER permit / inspection.

Property Tax is just one of the 'Gotchas' for my age 49 end of wage income ER... Had to totally change my budgets / cash flows / allocations. (bought 5 additional income properties just to cover increased non-discretionary bills.) Also had to swap all my commercial investment props for residential :x during 2008 crisis (Commercial lending all got 'Called'. Several friends lost $5m+ each by being 'called' on commercial loans)

Healthcare had several $300 / month options, but NONE after ACA. First was increase to $1700, then eventually to $2800 / month (Spouse with a LOT of expensive conditions). That equalled NO insurance.
Rural Texas is known to have poor schools, with some exceptions. Suburban schools are usually at least average, if not better. My home in Texas had county taxes approximately equal to the ISD tax. Rate was 2.35% for everything in an urban areas with a homestead exemption.
Schools in Texas (like pretty much everywhere else in the US) are simply reflections of their community. Schools in the newer upscale suburbs around the big cities are gorgeous with no expense spared. Olympic size pools, indoor football practice fields, modern science labs, theaters, etc. The pump out national merit scholars and D1 college prospects by the dozen. Schools in poor isolated rural parts of Texas, along the border, and inner cities can be dismal. It's like two different planets. The range from best to worst in Texas is far wider than in many states partly because the wealth gap is wider in Texas but also because there is little state funding for education. It's mostly local.

One thing that makes Texas taxes somewhat higher than elsewhere is the lack of initiative and referendum process in Texas. Anti-tax activists can't collect petitions and put anti-tax initiatives on the ballot like they can in California and Oregon. And bond measures need only a simple majority to pass unlike the 60% threshold in some other states. The only way to get property-tax restrictions in place in Texas is to go through the legislature. And, as conservative as they are, curtailing local property taxes is not really high on their priorities.
Actually with the increase in property prices over the last 6-7 years, it has become an issue.
https://www.texaspolicy.com/press/tppf- ... tax-reform

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 13900
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:51 pm

Oldschool wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:04 pm
Born, raised and worked entire life in Southern California. Retired to Hawaii immediately. No taxes on pension in Hawaii. But money isn’t everything. Left for Montana, no sales tax and a wonderful quality of life.
I've heard anecdotally that many who move to Hawaii voluntarily leave after a few years for various reasons. The lack of seasons is frequently cited and 'island fever' are commonly cited. A cousin of mine moved there, but the culture was such that it greatly inhibited her from doing her job as a nursing manager well, and they left after four years.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

texasdiver
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:50 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:20 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:51 pm
Oldschool wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:04 pm
Born, raised and worked entire life in Southern California. Retired to Hawaii immediately. No taxes on pension in Hawaii. But money isn’t everything. Left for Montana, no sales tax and a wonderful quality of life.
I've heard anecdotally that many who move to Hawaii voluntarily leave after a few years for various reasons. The lack of seasons is frequently cited and 'island fever' are commonly cited. A cousin of mine moved there, but the culture was such that it greatly inhibited her from doing her job as a nursing manager well, and they left after four years.
I had friends who taught in some really tough inner city Houston schools. Said the worst teaching experience they had by far was teaching in Hawaii. Just really really tough gaining respect with the local culture if you are an outsider. So your cousin’s experience rings true to what I’ve heard. On the other hand I have a cousin who moved there to one of the outer islands a couple of years ago and opened a yoga studio and is loving the life. But I don’t think she really interacts much with locals. Sounds kind of like the equivalent of a expat community so to speak.

Oldschool
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 6:24 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by Oldschool » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:49 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:51 pm
Oldschool wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:04 pm
Born, raised and worked entire life in Southern California. Retired to Hawaii immediately. No taxes on pension in Hawaii. But money isn’t everything. Left for Montana, no sales tax and a wonderful quality of life.
I've heard anecdotally that many who move to Hawaii voluntarily leave after a few years for various reasons. The lack of seasons is frequently cited and 'island fever' are commonly cited. A cousin of mine moved there, but the culture was such that it greatly inhibited her from doing her job as a nursing manager well, and they left after four years.
We made it two years in Hawaii. Perpetual summer was my number one reason for leaving. My wife had a few of her own as well.

User avatar
bottlecap
Posts: 6234
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by bottlecap » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:02 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:22 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:05 pm
Much irony in this thread. Thank you for the laughs.

The one thing that I feel is backwards is that people look for "retirement-friendly" tax states.

You'd be much better off to look for "working-friendly" tax states.

Save an average of $5,000 or $10,000 a year in taxes during your working career and invest it.

On top of normal retirement savings, you'll have enough to retire just about anywhere you want.

JT
Presumably, the horse has already left the barn on the decision of where to live during working years.
For others, careers leave little choice, or compensation more than makes up for added taxes.

So, not unusual to think (ask) about different state during retirement when possibly unencumbered by other constraints.


But, taxes seem like a fairly poor reason to choose one state over another for retirement. If state income tax differences between states is going to make that big of an impact, perhaps one is cutting it too close?
Good for you if you can throw a million bucks away. I guess the rest of us will have to pretend we're cutting it "too close."

JT

marcopolo
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm

bottlecap wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:02 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:22 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:05 pm
Much irony in this thread. Thank you for the laughs.

The one thing that I feel is backwards is that people look for "retirement-friendly" tax states.

You'd be much better off to look for "working-friendly" tax states.

Save an average of $5,000 or $10,000 a year in taxes during your working career and invest it.

On top of normal retirement savings, you'll have enough to retire just about anywhere you want.

JT
Presumably, the horse has already left the barn on the decision of where to live during working years.
For others, careers leave little choice, or compensation more than makes up for added taxes.

So, not unusual to think (ask) about different state during retirement when possibly unencumbered by other constraints.


But, taxes seem like a fairly poor reason to choose one state over another for retirement. If state income tax differences between states is going to make that big of an impact, perhaps one is cutting it too close?
Good for you if you can throw a million bucks away. I guess the rest of us will have to pretend we're cutting it "too close."

JT
in what state would that amount to $1m?
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow. either way you will be paying towards those to some degree. yes, there can be some less burdensome states, but I think people over estimate the savings.

would be curious how you arrived at that $1m number.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 3866
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow.
To be fair, some states offer far fewer (and/or lower quality) services.

But in general, the tax base has to come from somewhere.
Don't be a lemming.

cowbman
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by cowbman » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:49 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:02 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:22 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:05 pm
Much irony in this thread. Thank you for the laughs.

The one thing that I feel is backwards is that people look for "retirement-friendly" tax states.

You'd be much better off to look for "working-friendly" tax states.

Save an average of $5,000 or $10,000 a year in taxes during your working career and invest it.

On top of normal retirement savings, you'll have enough to retire just about anywhere you want.

JT
Presumably, the horse has already left the barn on the decision of where to live during working years.
For others, careers leave little choice, or compensation more than makes up for added taxes.

So, not unusual to think (ask) about different state during retirement when possibly unencumbered by other constraints.


But, taxes seem like a fairly poor reason to choose one state over another for retirement. If state income tax differences between states is going to make that big of an impact, perhaps one is cutting it too close?
Good for you if you can throw a million bucks away. I guess the rest of us will have to pretend we're cutting it "too close."

JT
in what state would that amount to $1m?
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow. either way you will be paying towards those to some degree. yes, there can be some less burdensome states, but I think people over estimate the savings.

would be curious how you arrived at that $1m number.
Different states have different levels of services/support provided. Some states also receive income from business/tourism taxes such as Alaska, Texas, Wyoming, Nevada, and Florida. Note: There is also likely a different amount one pays relative to income and services provided too. ITEP has looked at this and found no income tax states that rely more heavily on sales taxes such as Washington, Texas, and Florida have some of the most regressive tax structures for local taxes.

https://itep.org/whopays/

marcopolo
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:20 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:51 pm
Oldschool wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:04 pm
Born, raised and worked entire life in Southern California. Retired to Hawaii immediately. No taxes on pension in Hawaii. But money isn’t everything. Left for Montana, no sales tax and a wonderful quality of life.
I've heard anecdotally that many who move to Hawaii voluntarily leave after a few years for various reasons. The lack of seasons is frequently cited and 'island fever' are commonly cited. A cousin of mine moved there, but the culture was such that it greatly inhibited her from doing her job as a nursing manager well, and they left after four years.
I had friends who taught in some really tough inner city Houston schools. Said the worst teaching experience they had by far was teaching in Hawaii. Just really really tough gaining respect with the local culture if you are an outsider. So your cousin’s experience rings true to what I’ve heard. On the other hand I have a cousin who moved there to one of the outer islands a couple of years ago and opened a yoga studio and is loving the life. But I don’t think she really interacts much with locals. Sounds kind of like the equivalent of a expat community so to speak.
We have family in Hawaii, some that have been here all their lives, others who moved here a number of years ago. We recently moved here ourselves for retirement. Before doing so, we had visited for many years, sometimes staying for extended periods of time. Before making the decision to move, we had numerous conversation with our relatives specifically about why so many end up leaving. Of course there are numerous reasons, but they identified a few that applies to a lot of people:

1) Cost of living combined with low wages. Unlike for example the Bay area where salaries tend to be higher to at least partially compensate for the higher cost of living, in Hawaii the salaries are actually lower. This can put a lot financial pressure on people. Often surprising them with how expensive it can be to make a life here.

2) Hard to be accepted into local community. This is a bit of a vicious cycle. Many people that come to Hawaii come here for short stints right form the beginning (military, temporary assignments, etc.), others as we are discussing leave after a year or two. The local community knows this to be the case, so they are less willing to invest the time/effort to integrate someone into their lives until they think/know that person is going to stick around.

3) The culture is different. Some (many?) things are done differently here. Some of them are what attracts people here in the first place. But, often people come here and try to change the culture to suit how they used be on the mainland. This is usually a recipe for failure. If you find yourself telling the locals how they should do things the way you were used to back on the mainland, you may not be a good fit here.

4) The "paradise" syndrome. Some people come here thinking it is paradise, and will magically make their lives better. This is not Fantasy Island. It is just another place to live, with its pluses and minuses. If you were unhappy with your life on the mainland, moving here is probably not going to fix that. These "dreamers" as they are sometimes referred to eventually realize this and return home as unhappy as they came.

Island fever is real, but less of an issue as it is very easy to get of island. Change of seasons seems an odd thing to complain about AFTER moving here, were you surprised by that?!?

Anyway, we have been here less than a year, so who knows if we will also be one of those that ends up going back. But, we hope we at least into it with our eyes open, and with realistic expectations.

YMMV, but i am loving the 80 degree temperature as i watch the news reports about the weather on the mainland. :beer
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

marcopolo
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:03 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow.
To be fair, some states offer far fewer (and/or lower quality) services.

But in general, the tax base has to come from somewhere.
That is absolutely true. But, depending on the service, in some cases you end up paying for it directly instead of through your taxes, so the net savings is not as much as people think.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

marcopolo
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:08 pm

cowbman wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:02 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:22 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:05 pm
Much irony in this thread. Thank you for the laughs.

The one thing that I feel is backwards is that people look for "retirement-friendly" tax states.

You'd be much better off to look for "working-friendly" tax states.

Save an average of $5,000 or $10,000 a year in taxes during your working career and invest it.

On top of normal retirement savings, you'll have enough to retire just about anywhere you want.

JT
Presumably, the horse has already left the barn on the decision of where to live during working years.
For others, careers leave little choice, or compensation more than makes up for added taxes.

So, not unusual to think (ask) about different state during retirement when possibly unencumbered by other constraints.


But, taxes seem like a fairly poor reason to choose one state over another for retirement. If state income tax differences between states is going to make that big of an impact, perhaps one is cutting it too close?
Good for you if you can throw a million bucks away. I guess the rest of us will have to pretend we're cutting it "too close."

JT
in what state would that amount to $1m?
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow. either way you will be paying towards those to some degree. yes, there can be some less burdensome states, but I think people over estimate the savings.

would be curious how you arrived at that $1m number.
Different states have different levels of services/support provided. Some states also receive income from business/tourism taxes such as Alaska, Texas, Wyoming, Nevada, and Florida. Note: There is also likely a different amount one pays relative to income and services provided too. ITEP has looked at this and found no income tax states that rely more heavily on sales taxes such as Washington, Texas, and Florida have some of the most regressive tax structures for local taxes.

https://itep.org/whopays/
I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
I agree that there are differences in level of service (that often has a hidden cost), and that sources of revenue vary.

When all is said and done, i don't think the difference in costs amounts to as much as people are making it out to be. It is probably dwarfed by other cost of living items (e.g., housing) in many places.

I am having a hard time seeing how that comes out to throwing away $1m. That would be what, $40k/yr? Yeah, for that, i might have given it some thought when choosing a retirement destination.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

oldfatguy
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by oldfatguy » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:20 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:26 pm


Personally, I love winter ...
Same here. Absolutely NO desire to retire in a warmer climate. If anything, I might move further north if climate change keeps messing with our winters.

cowbman
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by cowbman » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:29 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:08 pm
cowbman wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
bottlecap wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:02 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:22 pm


Presumably, the horse has already left the barn on the decision of where to live during working years.
For others, careers leave little choice, or compensation more than makes up for added taxes.

So, not unusual to think (ask) about different state during retirement when possibly unencumbered by other constraints.


But, taxes seem like a fairly poor reason to choose one state over another for retirement. If state income tax differences between states is going to make that big of an impact, perhaps one is cutting it too close?
Good for you if you can throw a million bucks away. I guess the rest of us will have to pretend we're cutting it "too close."

JT
in what state would that amount to $1m?
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow. either way you will be paying towards those to some degree. yes, there can be some less burdensome states, but I think people over estimate the savings.

would be curious how you arrived at that $1m number.
Different states have different levels of services/support provided. Some states also receive income from business/tourism taxes such as Alaska, Texas, Wyoming, Nevada, and Florida. Note: There is also likely a different amount one pays relative to income and services provided too. ITEP has looked at this and found no income tax states that rely more heavily on sales taxes such as Washington, Texas, and Florida have some of the most regressive tax structures for local taxes.

https://itep.org/whopays/
I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
I agree that there are differences in level of service (that often has a hidden cost), and that sources of revenue vary.

When all is said and done, i don't think the difference in costs amounts to as much as people are making it out to be. It is probably dwarfed by other cost of living items (e.g., housing) in many places.

I am having a hard time seeing how that comes out to throwing away $1m. That would be what, $40k/yr? Yeah, for that, i might have given it some thought when choosing a retirement destination.
It makes a difference, but you likely need to have several businesses/chain of restaurants/7 figure income for it to be 40k/year. However, a particularly striking example is California vs. Nevada. If you are in a lower income group your choice of state is probably better decided by subsidies to those in your level of income (ie. Medicaid expansion vs. none). For retirees, no income states are likely only better if they are going to purchase a property less than 250K-300K. States like PA or DE may actually be better than TX or FL because of property taxes. I previously mentioned California as a better option then one would think because of relatively modest property taxes (and exemption of social security).

I previously lived in TX, and with the recent run up in property prices find it's more expensive for me and my family in terms of taxes than states with an income tax (property taxes at 2.35% of appraised value, which is market value at the time of purchase). Exceptions are no income tax and low property tax such as Nevada. If one is looking at 750K properties in WA vs. TX though, WA wins. Even at 1.25MM in WA vs. 650K in TX. WA wins. (1.2% of 1.2 MM is $14,400) vs. (2.35% of 650K is $15,275). There are other factors as well to consider, but purely from a tax perspective, income tax is not the only tax that matters (property becomes a big one too!). Of course for retirees, income tax is less important than possibly even in sales tax. Different states are better depending on income/lifestyle is what I was trying to say. For me personally, it's hard to beat Nevada from a tax perspective, but income/family/lifestyle don't necessarily support that choice.

drawpoker
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by drawpoker » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm
.....Hawaii.......recently moved here ourselves for retirement......

1) Cost of living.....

2) Hard to be accepted......

3) The culture is different......

4) The "paradise" syndrome. Some people come here thinking......
Interesting. Think I could deal very well all 4 on your list of cautions.

Questions: What about quality of health care? Plenty of good doctors, both PCP and specialists? What about your local hospitals? Are they top-notch, able to offer latest, state of the art, emerg. care for things like stroke, cardiac? Chemo/immuno for cancer patients? Or do most people with serious medical conditions have to go back to the mainland for first class care? That would be a deal-breaker for me.

What about severe weather events? Here on the east coast, we are prone 3 or 4 months every year with hurricanes/tropical storm/threat.
What about the Pacific version of hurricanes? Is that something to be concerned with?

As you can probably guess, am one of many wrestling with this. Being of an age where Florida used to be the "Go To" place. To escape the snow and harsh winters we endure :x

Could Hawaii be the new Florida for retirees like me? Or, is it just really suited for folks in good health?

marcopolo
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:22 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:50 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm
.....Hawaii.......recently moved here ourselves for retirement......

1) Cost of living.....

2) Hard to be accepted......

3) The culture is different......

4) The "paradise" syndrome. Some people come here thinking......
Interesting. Think I could deal very well all 4 on your list of cautions.

Questions: What about quality of health care? Plenty of good doctors, both PCP and specialists? What about your local hospitals? Are they top-notch, able to offer latest, state of the art, emerg. care for things like stroke, cardiac? Chemo/immuno for cancer patients? Or do most people with serious medical conditions have to go back to the mainland for first class care? That would be a deal-breaker for me.

What about severe weather events? Here on the east coast, we are prone 3 or 4 months every year with hurricanes/tropical storm/threat.
What about the Pacific version of hurricanes? Is that something to be concerned with?

As you can probably guess, am one of many wrestling with this. Being of an age where Florida used to be the "Go To" place. To escape the snow and harsh winters we endure :x

Could Hawaii be the new Florida for retirees like me? Or, is it just really suited for folks in good health?
Good questions. As with many things, the answer is a bit of a mixed bag.

The health care depends a lot on which island you are on. Oahu (where majority of people live) has very good healthcare infrastructure. But, even there somethings will likely be done back on the mainland. Someone we know had to have a kidney transplant. They were taken to SF for that. Not sure if that was due to special circumstances, or due to limited capability here.

Some of the outer islands are more like rural areas of the mainland, with limited capabilities and access to specialists. For example, on the Big Island (where we chose to settle), for acute cases, the local hospitals will stabilize you and then fly you to Honolulu. The good news is that they are prepared to do this, and are quite efficient at it as far as I understand.

Overall, primary care, and chronic disease management seems to be quite good. They must be doing something right as Hawaii has the highest life expectancy of any state. Here is an excerpt from a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation study:

"Hawaii continues to be the state with the longest life expectancy year after year. The Aloha State has the second lowest obesity rate in the country, the third lowest smoking rate, and the among the primary care doctors and dentists per capita.

The state has the second lowest share of residents with no health insurance, which may explain why are only 23.3 preventable hospitalizations per 100,000 people, the lowest preventable hospitalization of all states."


As for hurricanes, they do seem to come close to Hawaii on a somewhat regular basis. Most mortgage companies require that you carry hurricane insurance. But, the odd thing is that the last two hurricane to actually hit Hawaii were in 1992 and 1959. So, not a very common occurrence. Who knows what changing weather patterns will do in the future.

We are young (early 50s), and quite active, so the year round outdoor activities suits our lifestyle very nicely. We hope to stay here for the foreseeable future. But, recognize that our needs might change later in life.

Good luck wherever you choose.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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willthrill81
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:00 am

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm
3) The culture is different. Some (many?) things are done differently here. Some of them are what attracts people here in the first place. But, often people come here and try to change the culture to suit how they used be on the mainland. This is usually a recipe for failure. If you find yourself telling the locals how they should do things the way you were used to back on the mainland, you may not be a good fit here.
This may or may not affect retirees, but the issue that my cousin frequently dealt with as a nursing manager was that as soon as someone shouted "Surf's up," many of her staff just didn't show up for work. With something as vital as a medical care can be, she was understandably very frustrated with this, and she couldn't just fire those who didn't show up because new hires would behave the same way (i.e. it's apparently part of the culture). As a retiree (or anyone really), I would be quite angry if my healthcare provider couldn't provide me with the care I needed because too many of their workers were at the beach that day.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

drawpoker
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by drawpoker » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:36 am

...health care depends a lot on which island you are on.......Some of the outer islands are more like rural areas........Big Island (where we chose to settle), for acute cases, the local hospitals will stabilize you and then fly you to Honolulu.....
......primary care, and chronic disease management seems to be quite good. They must be doing something right as Hawaii has the highest life expectancy of any state.......
We are young (early 50s).............But, recognize that our needs might change later in life.
[/quote]

Thank you for helping me out with actual real life experience ..the best kind. :happy

Being in a very rural area myself - already familiar & comfortable with standard protocols. Of patients being flown out by Med-evac to nearest big city trauma center. Or speciality medical center/hospital. Sounds like Hawaii isn't that much different in that respect. As long as the Honolulu hospital is regarded as Top Notch?

As far as the cheery life expectancy rate - always kinda suspected the lower rate of mortality was due to the absence of the really bad air pollution we have in other parts of U.S.. Also, drinking water may be safer (?)

Never really made an association with Hawaii's ranking in life expectancy with health care providers/doctors/performances. To me, it seemed rooted more in environmental, geology factors, at work. Is there something to this I am missing? What do you think?

Do you envision you will still be there when you are 65, or 70?

marcopolo
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:55 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm
3) The culture is different. Some (many?) things are done differently here. Some of them are what attracts people here in the first place. But, often people come here and try to change the culture to suit how they used be on the mainland. This is usually a recipe for failure. If you find yourself telling the locals how they should do things the way you were used to back on the mainland, you may not be a good fit here.
This may or may not affect retirees, but the issue that my cousin frequently dealt with as a nursing manager was that as soon as someone shouted "Surf's up," many of her staff just didn't show up for work. With something as vital as a medical care can be, she was understandably very frustrated with this, and she couldn't just fire those who didn't show up because new hires would behave the same way (i.e. it's apparently part of the culture). As a retiree (or anyone really), I would be quite angry if my healthcare provider couldn't provide me with the care I needed because too many of their workers were at the beach that day.
I get the sense that this is largely an urban myth.

I am sure it happens in some isolated instances. But on a wide scale basis, i have not seen or heard that much about it. We heard the same rumors about construction workers. The reality in building our home has been quite the opposite. Extremely dedicated and hard working. We are actually ahead of schedule.

We have family and friends that are physicians at the local hospital, they never mention this as an issue. The biggest issue they have mentioned are health care workers (doctors and nurses) sticking around for the long term.

Oh, the other issue I forgot to mention is that the public school are absolutely terrible. anyone that can, sends their kids to private school.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:04 am

drawpoker wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:36 am
...health care depends a lot on which island you are on.......Some of the outer islands are more like rural areas........Big Island (where we chose to settle), for acute cases, the local hospitals will stabilize you and then fly you to Honolulu.....
......primary care, and chronic disease management seems to be quite good. They must be doing something right as Hawaii has the highest life expectancy of any state.......
We are young (early 50s).............But, recognize that our needs might change later in life.


Thank you for helping me out with actual real life experience ..the best kind. :happy

Being in a very rural area myself - already familiar & comfortable with standard protocols. Of patients being flown out by Med-evac to nearest big city trauma center. Or speciality medical center/hospital. Sounds like Hawaii isn't that much different in that respect. As long as the Honolulu hospital is regarded as Top Notch?

As far as the cheery life expectancy rate - always kinda suspected the lower rate of mortality was due to the absence of the really bad air pollution we have in other parts of U.S.. Also, drinking water may be safer (?)

Never really made an association with Hawaii's ranking in life expectancy with health care providers/doctors/performances. To me, it seemed rooted more in environmental, geology factors, at work. Is there something to this I am missing? What do you think?

Do you envision you will still be there when you are 65, or 70?
I agree that the higher life expectancy is due more to environmental factors. I think (but am not sure) it is probably due to the fact that people tend to be more active here, i would imagine due to the year round nice weather. But, if people were dropping dead left and right due to poor medical care, i would think that would show up in the life expectancy data. My understanding is that The Queens Medical system based in Honolulu is regarded as being a very good urban teaching hospital.

We certainly plan to be here at that age. My in-laws are in their mid-70s, and they moved here with us. We are building an Ohana on our property where they will live. They seem to be thriving so far.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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willthrill81
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:14 am

marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:55 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm
3) The culture is different. Some (many?) things are done differently here. Some of them are what attracts people here in the first place. But, often people come here and try to change the culture to suit how they used be on the mainland. This is usually a recipe for failure. If you find yourself telling the locals how they should do things the way you were used to back on the mainland, you may not be a good fit here.
This may or may not affect retirees, but the issue that my cousin frequently dealt with as a nursing manager was that as soon as someone shouted "Surf's up," many of her staff just didn't show up for work. With something as vital as a medical care can be, she was understandably very frustrated with this, and she couldn't just fire those who didn't show up because new hires would behave the same way (i.e. it's apparently part of the culture). As a retiree (or anyone really), I would be quite angry if my healthcare provider couldn't provide me with the care I needed because too many of their workers were at the beach that day.
I get the sense that this is largely an urban myth.

I am sure it happens in some isolated instances. But on a wide scale basis, i have not seen or heard that much about it. We heard the same rumors about construction workers. The reality in building our home has been quite the opposite. Extremely dedicated and hard working. We are actually ahead of schedule.

We have family and friends that are physicians at the local hospital, they never mention this as an issue. The biggest issue they have mentioned are health care workers (doctors and nurses) sticking around for the long term.

Oh, the other issue I forgot to mention is that the public school are absolutely terrible. anyone that can, sends their kids to private school.
It was certainly no myth for my cousin. After dealing with the problem for several years, she got sick of it, and their family left.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

marcopolo
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:17 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:14 am
marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:55 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:00 am
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:01 pm
3) The culture is different. Some (many?) things are done differently here. Some of them are what attracts people here in the first place. But, often people come here and try to change the culture to suit how they used be on the mainland. This is usually a recipe for failure. If you find yourself telling the locals how they should do things the way you were used to back on the mainland, you may not be a good fit here.
This may or may not affect retirees, but the issue that my cousin frequently dealt with as a nursing manager was that as soon as someone shouted "Surf's up," many of her staff just didn't show up for work. With something as vital as a medical care can be, she was understandably very frustrated with this, and she couldn't just fire those who didn't show up because new hires would behave the same way (i.e. it's apparently part of the culture). As a retiree (or anyone really), I would be quite angry if my healthcare provider couldn't provide me with the care I needed because too many of their workers were at the beach that day.
I get the sense that this is largely an urban myth.

I am sure it happens in some isolated instances. But on a wide scale basis, i have not seen or heard that much about it. We heard the same rumors about construction workers. The reality in building our home has been quite the opposite. Extremely dedicated and hard working. We are actually ahead of schedule.

We have family and friends that are physicians at the local hospital, they never mention this as an issue. The biggest issue they have mentioned are health care workers (doctors and nurses) sticking around for the long term.

Oh, the other issue I forgot to mention is that the public school are absolutely terrible. anyone that can, sends their kids to private school.
It was certainly no myth for my cousin. After dealing with the problem for several years, she got sick of it, and their family left.
Sounds like it worked out best for everyone.

Hawaii definitely is not for everyone.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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nativenewenglander
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by nativenewenglander » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 am

vu8 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:33 am
States with no state income taxes: Washington, Nevada, Texas, Wyoming, South Dakota, Florida and Alaska
NH has no income or sales tax.

finster869
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by finster869 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:44 am

nativenewenglander wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 am
vu8 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:33 am
States with no state income taxes: Washington, Nevada, Texas, Wyoming, South Dakota, Florida and Alaska
NH has no income or sales tax.
Although there is no income tax on W-2 income, NH does have a 5% tax on investments and dividends which would make NH, in many instances, not tax friendly for retirement purposes.

Blue456
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by Blue456 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:34 am

Glockenspiel wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:45 am
drawpoker wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:56 pm
Glockenspiel wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:20 am
Couldn’t pay me to live in almost any of the southeastern states. I’ll be staying in Minnesota, where it’s beautiful, but just cold enough to keep out the riff-raff.
Oh. That's why you are staying, for the natural beauty.
I thought maybe your feet were permanently frozen to the ground.... :P .
Well, the beauty, plus the schools, great state economy/jobs, family/relatives, great park systems, etc.
You release that in retirement schools and local great economy matters less. Plus unless you have family already there family/relatives actually becomes a reason not to move there.

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JoeRetire
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:44 am

marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:03 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow.
To be fair, some states offer far fewer (and/or lower quality) services.

But in general, the tax base has to come from somewhere.
That is absolutely true. But, depending on the service, in some cases you end up paying for it directly instead of through your taxes, so the net savings is not as much as people think.
Maybe. But remember that not everyone desires the same level of services and so would not pay for them directly.

To use an analogy at a more local level, some folks are willing to pay higher taxes for a better public school system. Others want to pay lower taxes but will then send their children to private school. Still others want to pay lower taxes, but won't send their children to private school.

We all choose a state that meets our needs. Not everyone's needs are the same. Some value lower tax rates more than others. We all decide individually.
Don't be a lemming.

marcopolo
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:23 am

JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:44 am
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:03 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:42 pm
as has been pointed out states have to fund services somehow.
To be fair, some states offer far fewer (and/or lower quality) services.

But in general, the tax base has to come from somewhere.
That is absolutely true. But, depending on the service, in some cases you end up paying for it directly instead of through your taxes, so the net savings is not as much as people think.
Maybe. But remember that not everyone desires the same level of services and so would not pay for them directly.

To use an analogy at a more local level, some folks are willing to pay higher taxes for a better public school system. Others want to pay lower taxes but will then send their children to private school. Still others want to pay lower taxes, but won't send their children to private school.

We all choose a state that meets our needs. Not everyone's needs are the same. Some value lower tax rates more than others. We all decide individually.
Completely agree with all of that.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

texasdiver
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:30 pm

nativenewenglander wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 am
vu8 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:33 am
States with no state income taxes: Washington, Nevada, Texas, Wyoming, South Dakota, Florida and Alaska
NH has no income or sales tax.
Neither does Alaska. At least state-wide. There are some towns like Juneau that do have sales tax to skim some money off the 1+ million tourists who visit each year off cruise ships.

And yes, lots of people do retire in Alaska. At least the more temperate parts of it like Juneau. I know a lot of retirees who love it there.

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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by texasdiver » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:40 pm

cowbman wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:29 pm

It makes a difference, but you likely need to have several businesses/chain of restaurants/7 figure income for it to be 40k/year. However, a particularly striking example is California vs. Nevada. If you are in a lower income group your choice of state is probably better decided by subsidies to those in your level of income (ie. Medicaid expansion vs. none). For retirees, no income states are likely only better if they are going to purchase a property less than 250K-300K. States like PA or DE may actually be better than TX or FL because of property taxes. I previously mentioned California as a better option then one would think because of relatively modest property taxes (and exemption of social security).

I previously lived in TX, and with the recent run up in property prices find it's more expensive for me and my family in terms of taxes than states with an income tax (property taxes at 2.35% of appraised value, which is market value at the time of purchase). Exceptions are no income tax and low property tax such as Nevada. If one is looking at 750K properties in WA vs. TX though, WA wins. Even at 1.25MM in WA vs. 650K in TX. WA wins. (1.2% of 1.2 MM is $14,400) vs. (2.35% of 650K is $15,275). There are other factors as well to consider, but purely from a tax perspective, income tax is not the only tax that matters (property becomes a big one too!). Of course for retirees, income tax is less important than possibly even in sales tax. Different states are better depending on income/lifestyle is what I was trying to say. For me personally, it's hard to beat Nevada from a tax perspective, but income/family/lifestyle don't necessarily support that choice.
The biggest financial surprise I found when moving from TX to WA was the reduction in my utility costs. My electric bill (especially in the summer) was almost $200/mo cheaper in WA. My water/sewer bill was also much lower as I barely ever have to water anything in WA and don't have a pool. I would have to go through my old Quicken ledgers to add up the actual difference but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm paying $200 month less in utilities on average. Both houses are over 3000 sf suburban houses. The electric bills in TX were just brutal 6 months out out of the year due to the need to keep AC running. The pool pumps also burned a lot of electricity. I barely ever run the AC in WA. And because the house is well insulated, barely run the gas furnace much. Anyone who has ever lived in the south knows it costs a lot more to cool a house than warm it.

Yes, you *can* live with less AC in Texas if you really want to. But houses are no longer designed to provide any natural ventilation. Architects or builders don't think about providing air flow by opening windows and using fans. They just assume AC. The old style Texas homes with large roof eaves and verandas wrapped all around and air-flow corridors running through the entire house just aren't made anymore. Likewise, you can xeroscape and do with a lot less water to save on water bills. But typical suburban houses are all built with St. Augustine or Bermuda grass lawns and lots of generic northern shrubs that require water. The typical suburban house is also built with pop-up sprinkler systems that are also water-inefficient. So it is considerable investment to rip all that out and xeroscape and drip irrigation. Much of the suburban Texas landscape is also so new that there's barely any shade at all. It takes decades to grow up nice shade trees.

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2pedals
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Re: Retirement Friendly States

Post by 2pedals » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:04 pm

Please no more pro WA posts. It rains a lot and the traffic is really bad. We don't need any more people.

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