Snow tires

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kevinf
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Snow tires

Post by kevinf » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:22 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:15 am
IMO wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:38 pm
People seem to forget that AWD or 4wd doesn't help when it comes to stopping. When it snows, it exacerbates poor driving skills and causes more accidents and traffic delays.

You also forgot to mention, every mile one puts on their set of winter tires is one less mile put on their other tires (which makes them last that much longer). So essentially, what you're spending isn't $1000 since you need to subtract out the cost of the tires. So maybe $500 is the real extra cost for the rims. Presuming you have some garage space to stack the extra set of tires.
+1000. Put them on rims so they’re easy to swap. Get smaller tires for winter use (helps with potholes).

As I get older, I find that more of life choices are about regret avoidance. What if I killed someone because I wanted to save a few bucks (that I can afford) on the proper tires? I couldn’t bear it.
Also, having traction available to avoid the person that didn't invest in snows from killing you. :)

lazydavid
Posts: 2585
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Snow tires

Post by lazydavid » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:25 pm

kevinf wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:22 am
Also, having traction available to avoid the person that didn't invest in snows from killing you. :)
Which brings me to the only caveat I've found with the traction provided by snow tires. When in traffic, you need to stop as slowly as if you didn't have them, to avoid getting rear-ended by the guy behind you whose minimum stopping distance is 3x yours. :mrgreen:

stoptothink
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Snow tires

Post by stoptothink » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:15 am
IMO wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:38 pm
People seem to forget that AWD or 4wd doesn't help when it comes to stopping. When it snows, it exacerbates poor driving skills and causes more accidents and traffic delays.

You also forgot to mention, every mile one puts on their set of winter tires is one less mile put on their other tires (which makes them last that much longer). So essentially, what you're spending isn't $1000 since you need to subtract out the cost of the tires. So maybe $500 is the real extra cost for the rims. Presuming you have some garage space to stack the extra set of tires.
+1000. Put them on rims so they’re easy to swap. Get smaller tires for winter use (helps with potholes).

As I get older, I find that more of life choices are about regret avoidance. What if I killed someone because I wanted to save a few bucks (that I can afford) on the proper tires? I couldn’t bear it.
I have to think anybody who says snow tires aren't worth it have never actually used them. It is remarkable the difference they make and that is all made clear in the various tests. We drive very little compared to most people (<10k miles as a family a year) and I might be the most frugal individual on this board, but living in an area which gets snow 3-6 months a year, there is no way I am ever not using snow (or at least all-weather) tires even though I never had an incident in all-seasons in snow. My mother has had two accidents in AWD outbacks that I am almost certain would have been avoided (or at least minimized, the last one totaled her car) had she been on proper tires, but I still am unable to convince her.

IMO
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Snow tires

Post by IMO » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:56 am

onourway wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:43 am
IMO wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:29 pm
kevinf wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:11 pm
finite_difference wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:09 pm
kevinf wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:56 am
Also I could care less about "ratings" on the tires (which were fine on reviews), they are snow tires with big treads with the snow cuts (swipes?) and plenty of studs. One is splitting hairs on snow tire ratings, cheapest ones, especially with studs are vastly superior to any all season tire.
No, it’s not splitting hairs. The best snow tires today will be substantially better than your inexpensive studded models in 98% of conditions, and 90% as good on ice as the studs. And they’ll be orders of magnitude quieter and handle nearly like an all season on dry/wet roads.
I'm curious, how do you know the performance difference of the "best" snow tires vs. the inexpensive studded tires I purchased? I suppose the link below from Tire and Science may have the comparisons, but I'm not willing to purchase the article to find out. Have you read the full text and does it actually list the tire I purchased (and does it compare them with and without studs)? Surely there are differences in various tires as there is a give/take on designing various winter tires (for example, going too soft will influence wear, too many sipes/cuts in treads will make tire mushy, etc). But without any specific reference, it just seems a bit unscientific to say the least. But you may be right, the inexpensive tire performs horribly. But you also might be wrong.

Some tires will do better for some conditions over others (such as dry cold vs. snow packed/ice). Ironically, my biggest concern is ice conditions on mountainous highways/roads in early morning and evening ice-over conditions. I have 3 different vehicles with 3 different studded snow tires and it's comparing apples to pineapples on the tires because they are different vehicles. Maybe my most important concern is that the studded tires provide me 10% better (using your stat) braking ability on icy mountainous conditions. I might not give a hoot about tire noise.

If you have any interest, I've linked multiple articles/studies below with some information on the article/studies. Take what you want from the articles/studies, there are many aspects on them that are open to valid criticisms.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... or-winter/
https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-a ... now-tires/
You'll note on the ice breaking, one is splitting hairs on these top rated tires, but they did NOT compare them to other less expensive tires. I'm not sure if a tire for a sport car has the same performance for my truck?

Test Results
SNOWCROSS LAP TIME, sec SNOW ACCELER, 3–18 mph, sec SNOWBRAKING, 18–3 mph, ft ICEACCEL, 3–16 mph, sec ICE BRAKING, 16–3 mph, ft
Bridgestone 30.15 3.48 33.3 7.34 37.8
Continental 29.52 3.46 34.5 7.28 38.2
Dunlop 29.74 3.55 33.8 8.31 39.1
Michelin 29.73 3.41 33.5 7.19 36.3
Nokian 29.43 3.40 33.3 7.02 36.0
Yokohama 31.17 3.53 34.7 8.00 38.9

Tire Science and Technology
July-September 2017, Vol. 45, No. 3, pp. 175-199
Comprehensive Study of the Performance of Winter Tires on Ice, Snow, and Asphalt Roads: The Influence of Tire Type and Wear
Mattias Hjort, Olle Eriksson, and Fredrik Bruzelius (2017)

https://doi.org/10.2346/tire.17.450304
https://tiresciencetechnology.org/doi/a ... .17.450304
This work presents a comprehensive study of the performance of winter tires on snow, ice, and asphalt. A set of 77 different winter tires were carefully selected for the study. Of these, 27 were new and 50 were worn from real traffic use. All three tire types for winter conditions (Nordic, European, and studded) were represented. All tires have been tested using a mobile tire-testing device for snow and asphalt and using a stationary tire-testing facility for ice. Both devices recorded the tire forces and motions, enabling a close to complete stationary characterization of the tires. In addition, 42 of the tires were tested on a passenger car, where brake performance was evaluated for the three different road conditions. This enables a comparative study of performance between tire types and wear for various winter road conditions. The results suggest that the recorded data represent real vehicle performance. Some conclusions from the measurements are that the effect of wear is consistent between the tire groups and that the performance degradation is most noticeable on studded tires on ice and on European tires on snow.

AN OVERVIEW OF STUDDED AND STUDLESSTIRE TRACTION AND SAFETY (2002)
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/research/repor ... /551.1.pdf
My note: There seems to be a bit of bias on this study, and I can understand the bias ---> money for road repair in my opinion)

CONCLUSIONS
1. Studded tires produce their best traction on snow or ice near the freezing mark
and lose proportionately more of their tractive ability at lower temperatures
than do studless or all-season tires.
2. The traction of studded tires is slightly superior to studless tires only under an
ever-narrowing set of circumstances. With less aggressive (lightweight) studs
being mandated, and with the advent of the new “studless” tire, such as the
Blizzak, since the early 1990s, the traction benefit for studded tires is
primarily evident on clear ice near the freezing mark, a condition whose
occurrence is limited. For the majority of test results reviewed for snow, and
for ice at lower temperatures, studded tires performed as well as or worse than
the Blizzak tire. For those conditions in which studded tires provided better
traction than studless tires, the increment usually was small.
3. The precise environmental conditions under which studded tires provide a
traction benefit are relatively rare. The maximum frictional gain (in
comparison to non-studded (not studless) tires) is found for new studded tires
on smooth ice, where they have been shown to provide up to 100 percent gain
in certain tests. However, the relative frictional gain of studded tires
diminishes or becomes negative on roughened ice, as the temperature drops,
as the studs wear, or if the comparison is made with studless tires.
4. Traction performance can be characterized in many ways, including braking,
acceleration, cornering, controllability, and grade climbing. Though all factors
51
are important, the single best indicator of tire performance is braking distance
and deceleration.
5. Studded tires reduce the difference in friction factor between optimum-slip
and locked-wheel braking, in comparison to non-studded tires. This may
reduce the risk of drivers misjudging the necessary braking distance and may
improve the braking potential for anti-lock brakes.
6. In one set of stopping distance tests in Alaska, studded, studless, and allseason tires performed nearly equally on snow, when averaged across several
vehicles. On ice, stopping distances for studded tires were 15 percent shorter
than for Blizzaks, which in turn were 8 percent shorter than for all-season
tires.
7. In another set of tests in Alaska, studless Blizzak tires offered the best traction
performance, especially for braking on both packed snow and ice, in
comparison to studded tires (which were second) and all-season tires (which
were last).
8. The use of two studded tires on the front of a vehicle produced stopping
traction results on snow and ice that were about halfway between the result of
four studded tires and four all-season tires. However, other controllability
penalties, such as yaw instability, should be considered.
9. On bare pavement, studded tires tend to have poorer traction performance
than other tire types. This is especially true for concrete; for asphalt, there is
little difference in stopping distance between studded and non-studded tires.
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10. Tractive performance of studded tires is sensitive to stud wear. Studded tires
may lose more of their tractive ability over time (from stud wear) than
studless tires. When stud protrusion diminishes to 0.024 in. (0.6 mm), the
frictional effect from the studs becomes negligible. Tire tread wear (on
studded tires) has relatively little frictional effect if stud protrusion is
maintained at 0.039 to 0.043 in. (1.0-1.1 mm).
11. A Norwegian study concluded that the use of studded tires tends to reduce the
accident rate by a small amount—from 1 to 10 percent.
12. A number of driver behavior issues have been postulated to affect the
judgment of studded tire effectiveness. There is not consensus on these points:
1) drivers with studded tires care more about safety, hence they drive more
safely, 2) they drive faster (because of a false sense of security or confidence),
and 3) drivers with non-studded tires avoid driving when weather is severe.
13. Pavement rutting caused by accelerated wear from studded tires can cause the
dangerous conditions of tramlining, hydroplaning on accumulated water in the
ruts, excessive road spray, and premature damage to pavement markings.
14. The roughening of ice and pavement from studded tires provides a safety
benefit for all vehicles (with and without studs) by helping to prevent
formation of smooth, glare ice.
15. The cost of studless tires is significantly higher than studded tires—by
approximately 50 percent.
16. Studded tires increase fuel consumption by a small amount (~1.2 percent)
over non-studded tires on bare roadways. But the other effects of unevenness,
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snow, and ice are far more significant than this factor and can increased fuel
consumption by 15 percent.
17. Suspended particulate matter from pavement dust created by studded tires and
noise from studded tires are health concerns in heavily traveled urban areas.

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/686675/W ... ressed.pdf
The 2011 study, which compared Quebec road
accident statistics before and after winter tire use
became required, shows that in the past two winters there has been a fi ve per cent reduction in
road-accident injuries that can be directly attributed to winter tire use. The research concludes
that winter tires prevent about 575 road-accident
injuries per winter in Quebec. The study also
found that vehicle accidents resulting in death or
serious injury declined by three per cent

motorcyclesarecool
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Snow tires

Post by motorcyclesarecool » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:47 am

IMO wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:56 am
(....)

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/686675/W ... ressed.pdf
The 2011 study, which compared Quebec road
accident statistics before and after winter tire use
became required, shows that in the past two winters there has been a five percent reduction in
road-accident injuries that can be directly attributed to winter tire use. The research concludes
that winter tires prevent about 575 road-accident
injuries per winter in Quebec. The study also
found that vehicle accidents resulting in death or
serious injury declined by three per cent
Having driven extensively in Québec and elsewhere, I can convey that Québec drivers are the most aggressive in North America, even in winter. 80% of the drivers are okay, but 20% clearly have death wishes. Following distances would leave zero room for error on dry pavement. Those stats tell a story of 11,500 road accident injuries PER WINTER! Population 6.1 million. That’s over 188 winter road collision injuries per hundred thousand. I’m not surprised that winter tires reduce the carnage.
Understand that choosing an HDHP is very much a "red pill" approach. Most would rather pay higher premiums for a $20 copay per visit. They will think you weird for choosing an HSA.

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