How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
finite_difference
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by finite_difference » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:07 am

RobLyons wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:49 am
pedsEDdoc wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 2:48 pm
I think it is funny the people here who are mocking Buick. It just was named one of the top 3 MOST reliable brands by CR. The bias towards Honda and Toyota on this board is funny. No doubt they make a good product but there are other products out there that make similar quality and gasp, maybe a better deal could be had on these!

I tend not to listen to CR solely, at times they seem bias and sometimes just plain wrong.
So let's look at price.


Lowest entry level
Honda Fit ..........$17,885
Toyota Yaris .......$17,470
Buick Sportback ..$25,070

Subcompact SUV
HRV .......$20,520
C-HR ......$21,145
Encore ....$23,200

Midsize
Accord ......$23,720
Camry .......$24,095
Sportback ..$25,070

Midsize SUV
Passport .....$31,990
Highlander ..$31,680
Enclave ......$40,000


So unless you find great dealer discounts, Buick is more expensive in every class.


As for reliability, every year manufacturers jump in and out of the various lists, as last October CR ranked Buick #19. Toyota #2 and Honda #15.

Feb 2019 JD Power ranked #3 Toyota, #5 Buick, #19 Honda

And I don't have access to this year's CR, but highlights tell me Toyota and Subaru dominated the list..
I wouldn’t buy lowest trim. I have found it difficult to negotiate a large discount on Honda/Subaru. I have been able to get ~10-20% off Honda MSRP depending on model. I bet you could get a better discount with GM.
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theplayer11
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by theplayer11 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:09 am

Buying used is the best option most if the time but i must admit my philosophy has now changed. At 55 years old, i have maybe 3 cars left to buy, so I will buy new and get every option i want. Sometimes you have to treat yourself and not worry about every last dollar. I plan to buy a new Mazda cx-5 turbo. From my research, it’s a step above rav4, rogue, cr4 and outback.

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dm200
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by dm200 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:33 am

theplayer11 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:09 am
Buying used is the best option most if the time but i must admit my philosophy has now changed. At 55 years old, i have maybe 3 cars left to buy, so I will buy new and get every option i want. Sometimes you have to treat yourself and not worry about every last dollar. I plan to buy a new Mazda cx-5 turbo. From my research, it’s a step above rav4, rogue, cr4 and outback.
If you need/want a very nice late model car all the time - I think it can make sense to buy new - if you can get a reasonable or good deal. Buying new, you can get EXACTLY the make, model, features you want and without the features you not want (as long as there are such options). I have never needed or wanted a "nice" car to show or use that way. I/we always looked for functionality - and often resulted in purchasing new.

Today, in semi-retirement - we drive fewer miles annually, take few long trips - so are happy driving older, purchased used., cars. My wife is satisfied with this approach as well. We have 1998 and 2002 Camrys - both purchased used and when over 15 model years old.

Marjimmy
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by Marjimmy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:51 pm

Tesla.com

No negotiation needed.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

randomguy
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by randomguy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:54 pm

RobLyons wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:49 am
pedsEDdoc wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 2:48 pm
I think it is funny the people here who are mocking Buick. It just was named one of the top 3 MOST reliable brands by CR. The bias towards Honda and Toyota on this board is funny. No doubt they make a good product but there are other products out there that make similar quality and gasp, maybe a better deal could be had on these!

I tend not to listen to CR solely, at times they seem bias and sometimes just plain wrong.
So let's look at price.


Lowest entry level
Honda Fit ..........$17,885
Toyota Yaris .......$17,470
Buick Sportback ..$25,070

Subcompact SUV
HRV .......$20,520
C-HR ......$21,145
Encore ....$23,200

Midsize
Accord ......$23,720
Camry .......$24,095
Sportback ..$25,070

Midsize SUV
Passport .....$31,990
Highlander ..$31,680
Enclave ......$40,000


So unless you find great dealer discounts, Buick is more expensive in every class.


As for reliability, every year manufacturers jump in and out of the various lists, as last October CR ranked Buick #19. Toyota #2 and Honda #15.

Feb 2019 JD Power ranked #3 Toyota, #5 Buick, #19 Honda

And I don't have access to this year's CR, but highlights tell me Toyota and Subaru dominated the list..
Is there such a thing as a buick dealer without great discounts?:) For example here is a random example: https://www.joycekoonsbuickgmc.com/Vehi ... 3375530983

26.5k car for 18.5k:) Granted it is in VA with stupid doc fees and I am sure the price has like 2k of discounts that nobody can qualify for (are you a fire fighter who just got out of the military and graduated from college in the last 6 months? :)) but it is pretty normal for buicks to be trading at 15-20% off MSRP while I haven't seen hondas go that far until the very end of model year sales (i.e. buying a 2018 today).

What is more interesting is that this is an ancient thread. How have those 2017 Buicks that consumer reports loved aged? We know they don't like the brand these days (https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc ... story.html) as it ranks 19. Is that cause of the new models being garbage or did it turn out those "reliable" 2017 cars were suspect? And this isn't picking on buick. You will find that outside of Lexus/toyota, the the rest of the top 10 or so move around a lot. Same thing happens with JDPowers. The difference between being 3rd and 10ths might seem big but it might be on the order of 10% more problems (i.e. you see the dealer 1 more time over 10 years for most of these cars) and is often a result of where in the model cycle the maker is.

And lets not talk about how meaningless 3 year reliability is. I will drive almost anything for 3 years. The number of serious problems that will cost me 1000s in the first 50k is almost 0. I want to know what problems are showing up between 75-200k miles.....

EHEngineer
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by EHEngineer » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:03 pm

simplesauce wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 4:21 pm
I'm in the market for a new car. Looking at a newer Buick or something similar. My job calls for a nice looking "expensive" car.

Anyway, brand new cars are off the table (yes?) because they are not a good value. Better to buy 1-2 years old, certified from the dealer with solid warrantys. Does this line of thinking make sense?
Doug DeMuro says the Hyundai Equus is a screaming used bargain luxury car with a long warranty, good reliability, and in your price range.
https://youtu.be/UPpLCthGP-Q
Or, you can ... decline to let me, a stranger on the Internet, egg you on to an exercise in time-wasting, and you could say "I'm probably OK and I don't care about it that much." -Nisiprius

RobLyons
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by RobLyons » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:45 am

randomguy wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:54 pm
RobLyons wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:49 am
pedsEDdoc wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 2:48 pm
I think it is funny the people here who are mocking Buick. It just was named one of the top 3 MOST reliable brands by CR. The bias towards Honda and Toyota on this board is funny. No doubt they make a good product but there are other products out there that make similar quality and gasp, maybe a better deal could be had on these!

I tend not to listen to CR solely, at times they seem bias and sometimes just plain wrong.
So let's look at price.


Lowest entry level
Honda Fit ..........$17,885
Toyota Yaris .......$17,470
Buick Sportback ..$25,070

Subcompact SUV
HRV .......$20,520
C-HR ......$21,145
Encore ....$23,200

Midsize
Accord ......$23,720
Camry .......$24,095
Sportback ..$25,070

Midsize SUV
Passport .....$31,990
Highlander ..$31,680
Enclave ......$40,000


So unless you find great dealer discounts, Buick is more expensive in every class.


As for reliability, every year manufacturers jump in and out of the various lists, as last October CR ranked Buick #19. Toyota #2 and Honda #15.

Feb 2019 JD Power ranked #3 Toyota, #5 Buick, #19 Honda

And I don't have access to this year's CR, but highlights tell me Toyota and Subaru dominated the list..
Is there such a thing as a buick dealer without great discounts?:) For example here is a random example: https://www.joycekoonsbuickgmc.com/Vehi ... 3375530983

26.5k car for 18.5k:) Granted it is in VA with stupid doc fees and I am sure the price has like 2k of discounts that nobody can qualify for (are you a fire fighter who just got out of the military and graduated from college in the last 6 months? :)) but it is pretty normal for buicks to be trading at 15-20% off MSRP while I haven't seen hondas go that far until the very end of model year sales (i.e. buying a 2018 today).

What is more interesting is that this is an ancient thread. How have those 2017 Buicks that consumer reports loved aged? We know they don't like the brand these days (https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc ... story.html) as it ranks 19. Is that cause of the new models being garbage or did it turn out those "reliable" 2017 cars were suspect? And this isn't picking on buick. You will find that outside of Lexus/toyota, the the rest of the top 10 or so move around a lot. Same thing happens with JDPowers. The difference between being 3rd and 10ths might seem big but it might be on the order of 10% more problems (i.e. you see the dealer 1 more time over 10 years for most of these cars) and is often a result of where in the model cycle the maker is.

And lets not talk about how meaningless 3 year reliability is. I will drive almost anything for 3 years. The number of serious problems that will cost me 1000s in the first 50k is almost 0. I want to know what problems are showing up between 75-200k miles.....

I can't argue any of that! I come from a long line of GM/domestic car lovers, myself included. Parents had a Buick that was great until the mileage got up there..

However I'm not converted after having major problems with 2 totally different Chevy vehicles, and the last issue was with a new $45k Chevy Volt.. It was basically a lemon and Chevy/GM fought me tooth and nail over, with terrible customer service, and a "it's your fault, not ours" attitude, I cannot ever see myself buying another GM again.

Flip side, our 3 Toyotas have been solid.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

Ykcor
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by Ykcor » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:39 am

Avoid the Consumers Report car buying program. You will be flooded with texts, emails and phone calls from dealers within a hundred mile radius.

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Toons
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by Toons » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:44 am

Email
Send me the quotes
Out the door
3 dealerships
Make a choice
Pay cash
:idea:
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee

squirm
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by squirm » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:00 pm

Vanguard Fan 1367 wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 1:31 pm
I would rather buy Total Market Index Fund from Vanguard than an expensive car so I have bought 2 Ford Fusions and 1 Silverado work Truck for my current 3 vehicles. I have never had a car payment other than for 3 months when Ford knocked 1000 off one of my Fusions if I would finance it.
I figure if I have to make car payments, I can't afford the car and shouldn't be buying one.

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mickeyd
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by mickeyd » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:33 am

jerryk68 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 8:04 pm
I buy new cars and the last car I bought (Sept 15) was thru the USAA car buying service. No hassles,no arguing. They tell you the price and features of the vehicle before you set foot in any of the dealerships. I could not beat USAA's price.
That is exactly how I acquired my last 2 vehicles and how I tend to acquire my next one. No muss. No fuss. Also, I got a 0% loan when I intended to pay cash. A high FICO score also helps.
Part-Owner of Texas | | “The CMH-the Cost Matters Hypothesis -is all that is needed to explain why indexing must and will work… Yes, it is that simple.” John C. Bogle

zlandar
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by zlandar » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:45 am

Buying a 1-2 year old "pre-cert" car is probably the worst deal IMO. A used car 3 years or older is when you get the best discount for buying used. 1-2 year old cars are not that much cheaper than a brand new current year model.

If you are buying new go to the car maker's website and build your car. You will see a list of nearby dealers. Email 4-6 of them and ask for a driveout (out-the-door) price. This price is all fees/taxes included. This allows for easy price shopping between dealers. Only go to the dealer once the price is agreed upon.

If you have a current car you want to trade-in stop by Carmax first and get it appraised. Carmax will give you a written offer good for a week. Every dealer I have bought a car from has been willing to come up from their initial lowball offer on my current vehicle to the Carmax price.

Vanguard Fan 1367
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by Vanguard Fan 1367 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:04 am

squirm wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:00 pm
Vanguard Fan 1367 wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 1:31 pm
I would rather buy Total Market Index Fund from Vanguard than an expensive car so I have bought 2 Ford Fusions and 1 Silverado work Truck for my current 3 vehicles. I have never had a car payment other than for 3 months when Ford knocked 1000 off one of my Fusions if I would finance it.
I figure if I have to make car payments, I can't afford the car and shouldn't be buying one.
I like your way of thinking

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Johnnie
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by Johnnie » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:08 am

There is a time of the economic "season" when slightly-used cars can be had for very reasonable prices, and another time when they more scarce and costly, and it makes more sense to buy new.

For 20 years starting in the late 1980's I bought slightly-used Taurus wagons for a relative song, and three of them served me well. Then Ford quit making them, and when I needed a replacement around 2012 the dynamic had changed to where slightly used cars weren't the best value, so I got a new Toyota Venza (closest I could find to the Taurus wagon in utility).

I did not like having to pay the full-freight, and hopefully when it's time to turn that one in the good low mileage used ones are back at reasonable prices.

Thankfully I never needed a car loan after my 20s, and those good cheap used Tauruses helped that possible.
"I know nothing."

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dm200
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by dm200 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:14 am

Johnnie wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:08 am
There is a time of the economic "season" when slightly-used cars can be had for very reasonable prices, and another time when they more scarce and costly, and it makes more sense to buy new.
For 20 years starting in the late 1980's I bought slightly-used Taurus wagons for a relative song, and three of them served me well. Then Ford quit making them, and when I needed a replacement around 2012 the dynamic had changed to where slightly used cars weren't the best value, so I got a new Toyota Venza (closest I could find to the Taurus wagon in utility).
I did not like having to pay the full-freight, and hopefully when it's time to turn that one in the good low mileage used ones are back at reasonable prices.
Thankfully I never needed a car loan after my 20s, and those good cheap used Tauruses helped that possible.
Makes perfect sense - but how do you determine the time of this economic season?

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Johnnie
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by Johnnie » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:23 am

dm200 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:14 am
Makes perfect sense - but how do you determine the time of this economic season?
You go shopping <shrug>. In the "good" seasons, there are scads of quality used cars 2-3 years old with <35k miles selling at very substantial discounts to new, like half to 60 percent of the new car price. In the less good season the selection is less and the prices not that impressive.

To get the lay of the land I use cars.com, pick a model, price and mileage range, and search the whole country, then within 500 miles. This works best on popular models that are closer to a "commodity." It becomes clear almost immediately where the "sweet spot" is in the current market - or that there isn't one and you'll have to pay-up (or wait).

I guess I have more experience than I realized because over the years my sisters have called me from dealer used car lots to check on a price they're asking. What happens next is brutal, when I look it up in real time and relay that the same Honda minivan can be had 60 miles away for $3,000-$4,000 less, and they go to work on the poor salesman. :twisted: Those are good times. :beer


PS. In the summer of 2008 when gas prices spiked (and in the first unannounced innings of the Great Recession) one of my sisters picked up a fairly recent, low-mileage Cadillac Escalade for like $5,500 - ridiculously cheap. It was a good car and she drove it into the ground over time. Sometimes you get lucky in the timing.
"I know nothing."

squirm
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by squirm » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:30 pm

Vanguard Fan 1367 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:04 am
squirm wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:00 pm
Vanguard Fan 1367 wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 1:31 pm
I would rather buy Total Market Index Fund from Vanguard than an expensive car so I have bought 2 Ford Fusions and 1 Silverado work Truck for my current 3 vehicles. I have never had a car payment other than for 3 months when Ford knocked 1000 off one of my Fusions if I would finance it.
I figure if I have to make car payments, I can't afford the car and shouldn't be buying one.
I like your way of thinking
Thanks.
We just bought a new car several weeks ago. After doing all the negotiating and signing, told the wife to go ahead and write a check for the full amount made out to the dealer.
Generally we run our cars to 170k miles, sometimes we buy new sometimes not. We drive about 40k/yr.

classicindexer
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Re: How do Bogleheads buy cars?

Post by classicindexer » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:12 am

finite_difference wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:46 am
pedsEDdoc wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 2:48 pm
I think it is funny the people here who are mocking Buick. It just was named one of the top 3 MOST reliable brands by CR. The bias towards Honda and Toyota on this board is funny. No doubt they make a good product but there are other products out there that make similar quality and gasp, maybe a better deal could be had on these!

Also if you think 80 year olds drive Buicks maybe you should take a look at the cascada convertible and the new regal. I really think those look pretty nice and nothing like what a grandmother/father would drive.

Anyway no dog in this fight (other than I think Buick has several good looking cars) but just wanted to correct the "reliability" posts about Buick.
I admit the 2019 Buick sedans look decent. I never thought I would say that.

The Regal GS, Regal Avenir and Avenir Lacrosse all look pretty awesome in fact. Kudos, GM, kudos.
I bought a 2013 Buick Regal GS (looks nothing like my father’s Buick’s from the 90s and early 2000s) new (GM employee discount from a family friend) and it now has 85K miles on it. Only a few minor issues that were covered under warranty and one wheel bearing issue that had to be replaced out of warranty which was under $400.

Been very happy with it and plan on driving it until the wheels fall off since I bought it new. I have always drove GM vehicles, they’re more common here in the mid-west. I like the look of the new 2019 Regal GS, although family needs have changed, so a mid-size SUV may be next.

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