(NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

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CULater
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by CULater » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am

physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

rascott
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by rascott » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:38 am

physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?

Not really. Biggest concern would be the fund doesn't attract enough assets and ends up closing...I think that's unlikely.

rascott
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by rascott » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:44 am

CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am
physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.

That's incorrect entirely.... the liquidity of an ETF is based upon the liquidity of the underlying securities.... it has nothing to do with the volume of the ETF itself. Considering this fund is SP500 and Treasury futures.... two of the most liquid instruments available, liquidity concern is not a concern.

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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by MotoTrojan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:04 am

rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:44 am
CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am
physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.

That's incorrect entirely.... the liquidity of an ETF is based upon the liquidity of the underlying securities.... it has nothing to do with the volume of the ETF itself. Considering this fund is SP500 and Treasury futures.... two of the most liquid instruments available, liquidity concern is not a concern.
+1. Biggest risk is the fund closing and causing a taxable event if held in taxable, but AUM (assets under management) is the value to watch there, not trading volume.

This is similar to how VIOV has a low spread even though it has significantly lower volume than IJS and SLYV, because there is an arbitrage opportunity. NTSX is even better off with much more liquid holdings.

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CULater
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by CULater » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:52 pm

rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:44 am
CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am
physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.

That's incorrect entirely.... the liquidity of an ETF is based upon the liquidity of the underlying securities.... it has nothing to do with the volume of the ETF itself. Considering this fund is SP500 and Treasury futures.... two of the most liquid instruments available, liquidity concern is not a concern.
Oh, can you provide any actual data to substantiate? I simply don't believe that a thinly held fund with low trading volume - no matter what the underlying investment are - won't blow up in a bear market - the spread will kill you.
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

rascott
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by rascott » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:59 pm

CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:52 pm
rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:44 am
CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am
physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.

That's incorrect entirely.... the liquidity of an ETF is based upon the liquidity of the underlying securities.... it has nothing to do with the volume of the ETF itself. Considering this fund is SP500 and Treasury futures.... two of the most liquid instruments available, liquidity concern is not a concern.
Oh, can you provide any actual data to substantiate? I simply don't believe that a thinly held fund with low trading volume - no matter what the underlying investment are - won't blow up in a bear market - the spread will kill you.
Because that's how ETFs work.... the volume you actually see isn't what's really going on. If the underlying securities are liquid, it is very simple for the market maker to assemble them and keep the price very close to the underlying NAV.

Check this out...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 3099232184
Last edited by rascott on Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AlohaJoe
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by AlohaJoe » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 pm

CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:52 pm
rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:44 am
CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am
physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.

That's incorrect entirely.... the liquidity of an ETF is based upon the liquidity of the underlying securities.... it has nothing to do with the volume of the ETF itself. Considering this fund is SP500 and Treasury futures.... two of the most liquid instruments available, liquidity concern is not a concern.
Oh, can you provide any actual data to substantiate? I simply don't believe that a thinly held fund with low trading volume - no matter what the underlying investment are - won't blow up in a bear market - the spread will kill you.
I've traded several ETFs that are low volume -- I posted them to livesoft's thread on broker executions. I think there was a bond ETF about 2 years ago that suddenly had something like 10x normal volume one day and everything was fine. And what was with bonds, which are notoriously illiquid. Guess we'll have to see what happens in bear market to say for sure, though.
On 8/16 sold $100,000 of RZV. RZV only trades $1.1 million a day, so that was 10% of the average daily volume. It took about 8 minutes to fill the market order (about half quickly, then a pause for a few minutes, then the rest). At that point in the day (11am) I think under 1,000 shares had traded, so my sell order for 1800 was actually more than had traded all day up to that point.

On 8/15 sold $200,000 of VFMF. VFMF only trades $400,000 a day, so that was 50% of the average daily volume. The order filled in under 3 minutes.

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CULater
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by CULater » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:17 am

rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:59 pm
CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:52 pm
rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:44 am
CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:37 am
physixfan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:26 am
I realized the trading volume of NTSX is shockingly small. I looked at the charts and sometimes there is 0 tradings in 30 minutes! Should this be a serious concern?
Yes, no liquidity means you will get killed if you want to get out of this fund during a rough patch. If you want to own it plan on holding.

That's incorrect entirely.... the liquidity of an ETF is based upon the liquidity of the underlying securities.... it has nothing to do with the volume of the ETF itself. Considering this fund is SP500 and Treasury futures.... two of the most liquid instruments available, liquidity concern is not a concern.
Oh, can you provide any actual data to substantiate? I simply don't believe that a thinly held fund with low trading volume - no matter what the underlying investment are - won't blow up in a bear market - the spread will kill you.
Because that's how ETFs work.... the volume you actually see isn't what's really going on. If the underlying securities are liquid, it is very simple for the market maker to assemble them and keep the price very close to the underlying NAV.

Check this out...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 3099232184
Thanks. Very helpful.
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

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firebirdparts
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by firebirdparts » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:21 am

CULater wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:52 pm
Oh, can you provide any actual data to substantiate?
For a slight bit of extra info, In order to make mutual funds exchange tradable, they had to give somebody the job of pricing the ETF moment by moment. They can't just demand prices like they do on a mutual fund, so this person has to correct the price by trading between the ETF and the underlying securities, moment by moment. Liquidity of underlying securities, and the action of this one particular trader, would determine whether or not the ETF had a liquidity problem. It could sit all day and be fine. In fact, mutual funds don't trade at all, all day, even if they have a trillion dollars in them.
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aristotelian
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by aristotelian » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:26 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:22 am
PluckyDucky wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:55 am
Looks like NTSX is available on Vanguard.
Is this new(s)?
Yes, previously Vanguard disallowed it, apparently as part of excluding leveraged ETF's. Not available at Merrill either.

rascott
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by rascott » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:08 am

aristotelian wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:26 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:22 am
PluckyDucky wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:55 am
Looks like NTSX is available on Vanguard.
Is this new(s)?
Yes, previously Vanguard disallowed it, apparently as part of excluding leveraged ETF's. Not available at Merrill either.


The Merrill thing is really bizarre.... as they let me buy UPRO but not this.

guyinlaw
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by guyinlaw » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:14 am

rascott wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:08 am



The Merrill thing is really bizarre.... as they let me buy UPRO but not this.
Merrill block active traded ETFs. It defines NTSX as active, same as Avantis ETFs and many others.

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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by SamuelPickwick » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:44 am

guyinlaw wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:14 am
rascott wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:08 am



The Merrill thing is really bizarre.... as they let me buy UPRO but not this.
Merrill block active traded ETFs. It defines NTSX as active, same as Avantis ETFs and many others.
That is not accurate. Merrill has a board that decides which securities to block, and what exactly they base it on is not disclosed (it is proprietary they claim). The stated goal is to block any security that they consider is too risky for the average investor. An average investor is defined as anyone with a net worth less than $10M. The stated reason for having that goal is supposedly to avoid being sued for allowing someone to buy something too risky. If you are an approved investor (net worth at least $10M and promise you know what you are doing) you can submit a "Hold Harmless" form and trade those incredibly risky blocked securities.

The result is, of course, nonsensical. There are plenty of securities that can be traded (unblocked) on Merrill Edge which are more risky than NTSX. And one that is blocked, JETS, can be constructed by an investor; all the securities in that ETF are available to purchase. Are they concerned about the sponsor of that ETF (for example)? US Global has been around a long time.

As far as actively managed (if that is what is meant above) ETFs, there are many available on ME (OGIG for example).

rascott
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by rascott » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:00 am

guyinlaw wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:14 am
rascott wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:08 am



The Merrill thing is really bizarre.... as they let me buy UPRO but not this.
Merrill block active traded ETFs. It defines NTSX as active, same as Avantis ETFs and many others.

Kind of ridiculous and why I'm likely moving to Schwab

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jhfenton
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by jhfenton » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:23 am

rascott wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:59 pm
Because that's how ETFs work.... the volume you actually see isn't what's really going on. If the underlying securities are liquid, it is very simple for the market maker to assemble them and keep the price very close to the underlying NAV.
+1 "Implied liquidity" is what ultimately matters for your trading costs, not apparent liquidity. The underlying securities in NTSX are very liquid.

There was a poster in the thread on Vanguard's factor funds that purchased very high six figures of VFVA/Vanguard US Value Factor in a couple of trades at a time when the fund had average daily volume in the hundreds of shares. He got execution within the 8 bp spread.

caklim00
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by caklim00 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:23 pm

Is anyone replicating NTSX approach using 10 Year Treasury Note futures + equity etfs?

ChrisBenn
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by ChrisBenn » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:19 pm

There is one volume based gotcha with NTSX @ Vanguard. Vanguard requires some minimum trade volume to make securities eligible for DRIP, and NTSX falls under this threshold - so dividends can not be automatically re-invested.

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jhfenton
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by jhfenton » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:32 pm

ChrisBenn wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:19 pm
There is one volume based gotcha with NTSX @ Vanguard. Vanguard requires some minimum trade volume to make securities eligible for DRIP, and NTSX falls under this threshold - so dividends can not be automatically re-invested.
My understanding from talking to a customer service rep is that it's some combination of a minimum threshold of ownership at Vanguard brokerage--so that they have a pool of investors to buy for--and minimum liquidity (and more the former than the latter). I've never actually owned a non-Vanguard ETF at Vanguard--and there have only been a few--that has been eligible for dividend reinvestment.

I would assume that NTSX would never be eligible for dividend reinvestment and make any investment decision on that basis.

For me, that wouldn't be an issue, as I never reinvest ETF dividends. I take it as an opportunity to rebalance. It's not like a mutual fund where you have the option to reinvest dividends at NAV. Vanguard reinvests dividends in a market on open order.

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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by Waba » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:31 pm

On JPM YouInvest I was not able to submit an online buy order for 1500 NTSX as it exceeded the avg daily volume.
We can't place your order.
Order size exceeds Average Daily Volume - please contact us for assistance (R01767A)
Earlier in the week I was able to submit a limit order to buy 500 NTSX and it got filled within a few hours in 5 separate fills.

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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by whodidntante » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:58 pm

SamuelPickwick wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:44 am
guyinlaw wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:14 am
rascott wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:08 am



The Merrill thing is really bizarre.... as they let me buy UPRO but not this.
Merrill block active traded ETFs. It defines NTSX as active, same as Avantis ETFs and many others.
That is not accurate. Merrill has a board that decides which securities to block, and what exactly they base it on is not disclosed (it is proprietary they claim). The stated goal is to block any security that they consider is too risky for the average investor. An average investor is defined as anyone with a net worth less than $10M. The stated reason for having that goal is supposedly to avoid being sued for allowing someone to buy something too risky. If you are an approved investor (net worth at least $10M and promise you know what you are doing) you can submit a "Hold Harmless" form and trade those incredibly risky blocked securities.

The result is, of course, nonsensical. There are plenty of securities that can be traded (unblocked) on Merrill Edge which are more risky than NTSX. And one that is blocked, JETS, can be constructed by an investor; all the securities in that ETF are available to purchase. Are they concerned about the sponsor of that ETF (for example)? US Global has been around a long time.

As far as actively managed (if that is what is meant above) ETFs, there are many available on ME (OGIG for example).
You seem to have special knowledge and I don't have a dog in this fight. But Merrill Edge customer support told me that active ETFs are blocked. I have this in writing. I pointed out that I could trade ICSH on their platform, which is actively managed. Crickets. Anyhoo, I don't want to upset the honeypot. My relationship with BoA has been more beneficial than some of my human relationships.

Wyodoc
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by Wyodoc » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:32 pm

Waba wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:31 pm
On JPM YouInvest I was not able to submit an online buy order for 1500 NTSX as it exceeded the avg daily volume.
We can't place your order.
Order size exceeds Average Daily Volume - please contact us for assistance (R01767A)
Earlier in the week I was able to submit a limit order to buy 500 NTSX and it got filled within a few hours in 5 separate fills.
Weird. Did a limit order today through Vanguard for 1550 shares of NTSX and it filled in 2 orders within about 5-10 min I believe (may have been shorter)

guyinlaw
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by guyinlaw » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:55 pm

Wyodoc wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:32 pm
Waba wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:31 pm
On JPM YouInvest I was not able to submit an online buy order for 1500 NTSX as it exceeded the avg daily volume.
We can't place your order.
Order size exceeds Average Daily Volume - please contact us for assistance (R01767A)
Earlier in the week I was able to submit a limit order to buy 500 NTSX and it got filled within a few hours in 5 separate fills.
Weird. Did a limit order today through Vanguard for 1550 shares of NTSX and it filled in 2 orders within about 5-10 min I believe (may have been shorter)
200 shares on Charles Schwab goes through within a minute

ftobin
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by ftobin » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:33 pm

Any broker would love to take your non-marketable limit order. They just send your order to an exchange, and pick up the rebate when it fills. There is absolutely no risk on their part.

One reason why some brokers don't want to take marketable orders in certain instruments is because they will generally need to provide price improvement for marketable order. There's a greater chance of them getting gamed and losing money if they're having to provide that improvement in those instruments. In contrast, a broker is not going to get gamed from you trading SPY in retail-sized amounts.

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David Jay
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by David Jay » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:22 am

This week’s chart is interesting: About a 5% drop (eyeballing the 5d chart) due to the drop in bond prices, showing the impact of leverage.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

ChrisBenn
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by ChrisBenn » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:50 am

David Jay wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:22 am
This week’s chart is interesting: About a 5% drop (eyeballing the 5d chart) due to the drop in bond prices, showing the impact of leverage.
I might be missing something here, but I see a 0.14% drop for the 5d chart?
https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/NTSX#e ... ZSJ9fX0%3D

Close was what, 28.61 on Monday and 28.54 on Friday (also per yahoo). That gives me closer to .24% drop, but I'm guessing that's due to rounding of fractional cents on the close prices.

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David Jay
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Re: (NEW) WisdomTree 90/60 U.S. Balanced Fund

Post by David Jay » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:48 pm

ChrisBenn wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:50 am
David Jay wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:22 am
This week’s chart is interesting: About a 5% drop (eyeballing the 5d chart) due to the drop in bond prices, showing the impact of leverage.
I might be missing something here, but I see a 0.14% drop for the 5d chart?
https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/NTSX#e ... ZSJ9fX0%3D

Close was what, 28.61 on Monday and 28.54 on Friday (also per yahoo). That gives me closer to .24% drop, but I'm guessing that's due to rounding of fractional cents on the close prices.
My bad. Off by a full digit, closer to a half percent, not 5%. It opened on Monday at about 28.7
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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