Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
MotoTrojan
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:36 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:03 am
Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:58 am
Jags4186 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:34 am
While part of me wants to ask if this is a serious questions, assuming you are being serious, it seems you are more than fine. I don’t understand what an additional $135k - $175k ontop of the $4.3 million you already have is going to do for you.
Security and optionality, mostly.

I'd like to have $625K or so in cash and maybe use some of that to buy, say, a $400K house with a bit leftover for furniture. As it stands now, with $490K, after setting aside $30K for a future car, $40 for furniture, and $75K to $150K for safe living expenses, the maximum spend on a house is something around $270K or so. Not horrible, but it does limit the choices a bit.
There is a difference between wants and needs. You have more than enough to satisfy needs, if you want a house then you may need to seek employment for the next 10 years or so. Depending upon how much income you will earn in new job.
What? OP could go out and buy a $750K house for cash and still have a perpetual withdrawal rate of their current expenses, without ever working again.

MotoTrojan
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:37 pm

Living off dividends and interest is a flawed plan as they fluctuate. You'll have to sell shares, but so-what.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:01 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:36 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:03 am
Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:58 am
Jags4186 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:34 am
While part of me wants to ask if this is a serious questions, assuming you are being serious, it seems you are more than fine. I don’t understand what an additional $135k - $175k ontop of the $4.3 million you already have is going to do for you.
Security and optionality, mostly.

I'd like to have $625K or so in cash and maybe use some of that to buy, say, a $400K house with a bit leftover for furniture. As it stands now, with $490K, after setting aside $30K for a future car, $40 for furniture, and $75K to $150K for safe living expenses, the maximum spend on a house is something around $270K or so. Not horrible, but it does limit the choices a bit.
There is a difference between wants and needs. You have more than enough to satisfy needs, if you want a house then you may need to seek employment for the next 10 years or so. Depending upon how much income you will earn in new job.
What? OP could go out and buy a $750K house for cash and still have a perpetual withdrawal rate of their current expenses, without ever working again.
He could, but he won't because he wants an additional amount in cash in addition to his existing assets. What you are saying is he already has what he needs.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

bluebolt
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by bluebolt » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:03 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 am
Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
Well, we currently rent a 1 bedroom apartment.

If we were to buy a house, it would presumably be a 3 bedroom one. Which would require purchasing two new beds ($2K each, maybe?), some bedside tables ($1K, total?), probably a new couch ($2K, I guess?), some regular tables ($1K?), perhaps some chest or drawers or whatever it is called for the dining room (1K?), probably some rugs ($2K?), likely some window treatments of some sorts (who knows how much that costs), maybe some outdoor seating ($3K?), and probably a lot of paint and the like, or even new flooring ($5K?).

And then we'd need outdoor equipment, like a mower, some shovels, a rake, hoses, and so on. Just the basic stuff that pretty much every homeowner has but likely no apartment dweller does. All of that will likely cost at least $5K.

I'm not sure what the total amount of everything would (or even should) be, but I'm sure that it all adds up quickly.
You don't need to buy all of those things right away and can spread the cost over months or years.

Furniture for unused/guest bedrooms can be added in over time. Same with rugs and window treatments. Heck, I had those disposable paper window shades in place for a long time before I bought real window treatments.

I would guess I spent less than $1K on all the essential things I needed when I moved from an apartment to a condo a few years ago. A couple of ladders, hoses, a few tools, lawn mower, trimmer, blower, rake, shovel, gardening tools.

I spent $400 on a nice outdoor dining set that still looks good today. Certainly no need to buy that right away.

surfstar
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by surfstar » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:13 pm

$40k on furniture?

IKEA and Craigslist.



Is this one of those humble-brag posts?
http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth
If someone in the 0.08% of the richest people in the world is loosing sleep over their money... they have other issues besides finances (and we're not allowed to discuss personal medical items here), but perhaps you should talk to someone if the Bogleheads can't reassure you sufficiently.

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anon_investor
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by anon_investor » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:25 pm

Yes OP you will be okay. :beer

marcopolo
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by marcopolo » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm

You have been a member of this forum since 2010. You have nearly 2000 posts.
You seem to have been somewhat active on various discussions about withdrawal rates, etc.
You are obviously quite successful and accomplished.
Even as a lawyer, I suspect you are able to perform rudimentary math.

Even if you take your cash and use that to purchase your next home, That leaves $3.77M in investments.
You say your expenses are $75k at the upper end of your estimate. That is a WR of around 2%.

While there is a lot of discussion over SWR (3% is the new 4%, maybe we need 2.5%, etc.), even the most pessimistic people in this forum seem to be OK with a 2% WR, even for early retirees.

So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.

I would recommend you spend some time thinking about what you would want to do with the next phase of your life now that you are clearly financially independent. It may involve finding other gainful employment, or it may be something you had not considered before. You are in a great place to have lots of options.

Good luck to you
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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MillennialFinance19
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by MillennialFinance19 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:01 pm

Sorry to hear about your "situation".

Honestly, you are in your 40's and have in excess of $4m. Based on that alone, I'm going to make a very pointed assumption that you have a skillset that will likely lead to another job which will further increase your earnings and your overall savings.

Path forward: update the resume, LinkedIn, etc., and start applying for jobs. Maybe have a drink of whiskey and a cigar as well, if this is really stressing you out.

Moneta
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Moneta » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:24 pm

I'm older than you, have two kids, and am still working on accumulating my first $150,000. We've only saved $10K total for the kids' college. I am not able to fully fund my retirement. According to a wealth calculator I ran, I will need to work for the next 25 years, saving 30% of my gross, and I will still only have $1 million or so, and that is only $600,000 in today's dollars, so that would give me a grand total of $24,000 per year to spend (in today's dollars) if I use a 4% withdrawal rate in retirement. $24,000 a year to spend is close to the poverty line.

You have orders of magnitude more than I ever will, and that's awesome! You could do all the things I can't (because I'm stuck working 40 hours a week in exchange for lodging, food, health care, and parenting expenses).

You could travel to every country - take up painting or sculpture - foster abused animals - start a bird sanctuary - self-publish your own poetry - start a charitable giving foundation - invest in some awesome, world-changing tech -- the list goes on and on! You have decades of living ahead of you, and not a single care about paying for your needs. I'm really happy for you. I hope you can feel the full glory of exactly how free you really are to live an abundant life, full of the things that make life worth living. :beer

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Random Poster
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm
So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.
I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:57 pm

Just wanted to point out that the OP is only talking about a possible lay-off, not that he has actually been laid off.

TomCat96
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by TomCat96 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:59 pm

No you will not be ok.

You will be reduced to eating beans, and I'm not even sure you can afford that.


At 4.26M, your average income from parking your money in riskfree treasuries exceeds the annual income of the average American.
Your savings exceeds the average couple your age, by 387 times.

What else is there to be said?

bearwithbear
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by bearwithbear » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:08 pm

OP,

You will be fine.
Breath.
Know too that the majority of us have had the same sleepless night at some time or other.
If the layoff occurs and the worry continues, get a job.
The paycheck that you will get from that job will be the placebo that you need.
Breath.
You will be fine.

Bear

marcopolo
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by marcopolo » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:40 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm
So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.
I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.
I understand, to a certain point, your concerns. They are ones we all face.
As many have pointed out, your problems really are not financial. You are in great shape financially, congratulations.
That aside, if not having money coming in on a regular basis causes you that much anxiety, it may not be a bad idea to continue working in some capacity until you are able to overcome those concerns.

To have accumulated that much wealth at such an early age, you surely have marketable skills. So, this employer no longer needs your skills, i suspect there will be many others that are willing to pay for them.

Good luck
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

marcopolo
Posts: 2787
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by marcopolo » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:41 pm

bearwithbear wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:08 pm
OP,

You will be fine.
Breath.
Know too that the majority of us have had the same sleepless night at some time or other.
If the layoff occurs and the worry continues, get a job.
The paycheck that you will get from that job will be the placebo that you need.
Breath.
You will be fine.

Bear
+1 Good advice
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

visualguy
Posts: 1645
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:32 am

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by visualguy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:53 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm
So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.
I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.
Why do you think you have to leave the working life at 42? Layoffs are common, and people bounce back typically. We aren't in a depression or even a recession... If in reality the problem is that you don't want to keep working, that's a different story, but if you do, not sure what would prevent you.

Unlike some others here, I do find your fear of what happens if you don't work again understandable. A lot can happen in the 50 years that you and/or your wife may still live. You mentioned health, and there are other factors as well. For example, I would be concerned in my case about the impact on my relationship at some point. I don't know how long mine would have survived if I had retired at 42, and that would have had significant financial as well as other implications. I would also be concerned about aging without kids (in your case), and the costs of that (such as entering a CCRC). In general, when people say that you're ok with a certain amount, there are all kinds of hidden assumptions about how your life unfolds which are not necessarily valid, and the younger your are, the more doubtful these assumptions are.

The way people deal with these uncertainties is to keep making money, or reach the point where money is truly not a concern anymore regardless of what happens, but that would need to be a truly high level of wealth if you have 50 years ahead of you. Stay in the game - don't stop unless you have to.

gazelle1991
Posts: 108
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by gazelle1991 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:01 pm

You will be ok. Can always find a new job. Even if no job is available, your nest egg should be large enough to sustain your cost of living.

Now breath. Everything will be fine. :beer

EnjoyIt
Posts: 3216
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by EnjoyIt » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm
So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.
I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.
I think many of us get where you are coming from. There is something comforting with routine. You follow your routine day in and day out and you know what the next week will sort of bring. As everyone said, you two will be just fine. For one, if you want to work, I'm sure you'll find more work. If you want to retire, you have plenty of resources to do so and still allow for your assets to keep growing over the decades. Or, you can change gears and find some other work. The reality is, the world is yours for the taking. You can do just about whatever you want.

You are not a failure, you are a remarkable success. $4 million in your 40s I believe puts you in the top 1% of the US population. Why would you make a mistake with your cash? You are a bogleheads. Stay the course, we are all here to help you steer true. There is no wrong health insurance plan. Sure some may be better than others, but as long as you have insurance you will not be paying extra outside of your out of pocket max which means you will not lose everything if either of you get sick. Lastly, you can afford to leave the working life early, but if you choose to go back to work, you can. Just find another job. It doesn't have to be a high paying job, anything will do as long as it gets you back to your routine.

About 1 year ago, I left a pretty high paying job to go part time. I thought about it, I planned for it, but when it finally happened, I was scared I made a mistake cutting my income by 50% while intentionally increasing our expenses by 20% because we had the extra free time. There were a few nights I had a hard time falling asleep thinking I made a mistake and should have worked in that high stress high pay job just a few more years. Today, I know I made the best decision of my life. Our family is so much better off and happier. I am even healthier and enjoying life more. Feeling scared is normal, new is scary, but you are well prepared for what is next.

All those fears you have are real and maybe (just maybe, you know yourself) you may need a therapist to talk to. I believe that there is no additional income or cash savings that will dissuade your trepidations. Lastly,

I'm not sure if you have any hobbies or interest outside of work, and maybe that is adding to some of your fears. Maybe it is worth it to start something up you may enjoy.

marcopolo
Posts: 2787
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by marcopolo » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:20 pm

visualguy wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:53 pm
Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm
So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.
I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.
Why do you think you have to leave the working life at 42? Layoffs are common, and people bounce back typically. We aren't in a depression or even a recession... If in reality the problem is that you don't want to keep working, that's a different story, but if you do, not sure what would prevent you.

Unlike some others here, I do find your fear of what happens if you don't work again understandable. A lot can happen in the 50 years that you and/or your wife may still live. You mentioned health, and there are other factors as well. For example, I would be concerned in my case about the impact on my relationship at some point. I don't know how long mine would have survived if I had retired at 42, and that would have had significant financial as well as other implications. I would also be concerned about aging without kids (in your case), and the costs of that (such as entering a CCRC). In general, when people say that you're ok with a certain amount, there are all kinds of hidden assumptions about how your life unfolds which are not necessarily valid, and the younger your are, the more doubtful these assumptions are.

The way people deal with these uncertainties is to keep making money, or reach the point where money is truly not a concern anymore regardless of what happens, but that would need to be a truly high level of wealth if you have 50 years ahead of you. Stay in the game - don't stop unless you have to.
The OP stated that he was planning on leaving the workforce after accumulating another $135k - $175K.
I know you are in the "world is a scary place, so just keep working forever" camp. Which is fine, not everybody has the same goals.
But, for someone who was planning to get out with another ~$200k of additional savings, do you think that will make any kind of material difference when they already have a network of ~$4.4M?

I agree with you that if the OP wants to keep working, there should not really be much of an impediment to doing so.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

EnjoyIt
Posts: 3216
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by EnjoyIt » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:30 pm

If OP has a 40/60 portfolio at $4.2 million, the interest on total bond market alone covers ~$70k of expenses every year.

visualguy
Posts: 1645
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:32 am

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by visualguy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:50 pm

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:20 pm
visualguy wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:53 pm
Why do you think you have to leave the working life at 42? Layoffs are common, and people bounce back typically. We aren't in a depression or even a recession... If in reality the problem is that you don't want to keep working, that's a different story, but if you do, not sure what would prevent you.

Unlike some others here, I do find your fear of what happens if you don't work again understandable. A lot can happen in the 50 years that you and/or your wife may still live. You mentioned health, and there are other factors as well. For example, I would be concerned in my case about the impact on my relationship at some point. I don't know how long mine would have survived if I had retired at 42, and that would have had significant financial as well as other implications. I would also be concerned about aging without kids (in your case), and the costs of that (such as entering a CCRC). In general, when people say that you're ok with a certain amount, there are all kinds of hidden assumptions about how your life unfolds which are not necessarily valid, and the younger your are, the more doubtful these assumptions are.

The way people deal with these uncertainties is to keep making money, or reach the point where money is truly not a concern anymore regardless of what happens, but that would need to be a truly high level of wealth if you have 50 years ahead of you. Stay in the game - don't stop unless you have to.
The OP stated that he was planning on leaving the workforce after accumulating another $135k - $175K.
I know you are in the "world is a scary place, so just keep working forever" camp. Which is fine, not everybody has the same goals.
But, for someone who was planning to get out with another ~$200k of additional savings, do you think that will make any kind of material difference when they already have a network of ~$4.4M?

I agree with you that if the OP wants to keep working, there should not really be much of an impediment to doing so.
No, I don't think another $200K makes a material difference when someone has $4.4M.

Also, it's not just the "scary" stuff that you may need money for... For example, my neighbor who is in his early 40s just married a divorced woman with a young kid, and, who knows, he may decide to have another kid now. He obviously considers that a positive thing, but it changed his financial picture compared to what he could have predicted very few years ago. When you're relatively young, there's still a lot of life which is yet to happen. Multiplying existing or predicted expenses by 33 or whatever doesn't capture it, and may limit your options for positive developments in your life as well as reduce your ability to deal with the "scary" stuff. While young, keep making money unless money is truly beyond being a limiting concern even if your life takes some new turns.

Startingover2019
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:24 pm

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Startingover2019 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:01 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:20 am
Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
$40k?

If I were to hit $40k, I'd have to include buying a new Kabota BX 4x4 diesel tractor and a new 4 post lift. Even then......
I hear you. And that is why I ask. This is not the first time I am seeing this. Another poster was talking about moving from house boat to land and wanted to furnish a house for 50k. I just can’t fathom that. Sounds insane to me.

Pomegranate
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Pomegranate » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:06 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am




Here are the personal details:

Age: I'm 42. Wife is 40.

Debt: None.


Total Investments and "Non-Operating" Cash: $4,260,000.

Accordingly, my question to you is: If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?

Thank you.
Yeah you should be just fine :mrgreen:
I got a similar question - I have $100,000,000 total investments but forgot to take the change from the last restaurant $20 bill. Will I be ok or do I need to act ASAP? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Ivygirl
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Ivygirl » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:32 pm

It seems to me this is not a financial problem that needs solving, but a malign spell that needs snapping. It's a ghost story for Halloween or any other day.

Pardon me, OP, but I believe that you have made money a god and have been bringing it tribute for a long time hoping it will look upon you favorably and grant the security you want. But money does not love you and will never have enough tributes, and it doesn't even possess the power to confer the security it keeps promising. It's scamming you. It's lying.

The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Really. Withhold its tribute and stop loving it and see if that spell doesn't snap.

stan1
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by stan1 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:43 pm

Maybe your nest egg was earned or maybe it was a windfall such as an inheritance. It doesn't matter really because you now see yourself as vulnerable. What YOU need to do for the sake of the rest of your life, however you spend it, is not take this personally. It's business and sometimes these things happen even to the most capable and nicest people.

Turn it into an opportunity. Work on your resume now. Consider a short term assignment in the new location as a transition if your employer wants you to do that. Engage with your professional and personal network. Exercise in your down time (if you are laid off). Do something to improve yourself. Travel a bit. Seek counseling if you need to. I know its easier said than done, but it's what you have to do.

Cautionary Tale
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Cautionary Tale » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:48 pm

My advice is to retire and start working on the bucket list.

FI4LIFE
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by FI4LIFE » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:50 pm

Nice job on accumulating an enviable hoard of wealth. As you already know, you have all the money you need. Your fear that you will make some foolish mistake and lose it all is not based in reality.

You already know how to live within your means and this will continue. Your wealth will continue to grow, even without an earned income, and you will soon join the 8-figure club. Savor your accomplishment. Do not fret. You can adapt to anything that comes your way.

beehivehave
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by beehivehave » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:53 pm

With no kids and all that money, you will be fine.
You can always find another job, even at a much reduced salary and even if it takes years, just to cover medical insurance and ease the draw on your savings.
It might even be a blessing in disguise as you can take stock as to what you really want to do with your life. There is no hurry. Many people would like to have a "problem" like yours.
PS: Another $200K (5%) is not going to make much of a difference.

BlueCable
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by BlueCable » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:59 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am

It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.
Retire today and then you'll have no more employment uncertainty. Sounds like you could live off dividends and never spend down your accounts.

BlueCable
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by BlueCable » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:01 pm

You have enough money saved that you don't need to worry about small mistakes. You can err on the side of the Cadillac insurance plan; there is no need to optimize spending. You've bought yourself freedom from worrying about details with all you've saved.

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greg24
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by greg24 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:02 pm

OP: This may be the greatest thing that ever happened to you.

Snowjob
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Snowjob » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:25 pm

greg24 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:02 pm
OP: This may be the greatest thing that ever happened to you.
I Agree --

Sounds like the OP is experiencing a lot of stress disconnecting his life and identity from his job. This is awake up call to re-evaluate life priorities. He is asking for financial advice but does not really need it. People re-assuring him that it will be OK might be nice in the short term but deep down that was an expected response when he created this post I suspect. This is about change and re-assessing life, not about money. Sounds like the OP has all the opportunity in the world to do whatever he wants and plenty of life left to do it in. Instead of focusing on getting a new job he should be focusing on what he wants to do with the rest of his life and stop worrying. If he gets laid of he gets bonus while he moves onto his next thing. If not, he loses his anxiety over the issue but still has started asking the important questions he needs to.

bhsince87
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by bhsince87 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:55 pm

OP: I completely understand your fears. I am the same way. Exactly!

And I know it's not logical and maybe not even healthy. But it is what it is.

Tomorrow marks the 10th month of my early retirement. We are in a similar financial position as you. Maybe $500k less in liquid assets, but we own about $500k in property (non-income producing).

But I am 54, and DW is 52. She is still working, but her job is on thin ice. Tow layoff notices in the last year, but both rescinded at the last minute.

I was planning on retiring and going part time at 55. But my employer stopped offering part time work, and stopped retiree health insurance. That was my plan for 15 years!!

And then they started offering voluntary severance packages. I took one last year.

Oh, yeah, and my back up plan involved a friend at a competitor who promised to hire me as a consultant once my non-compete expired at the end of this year. And then he got laid off 2 months ago!

I don't have a whole lot of advice, other than to hang in there. I'm still adapting, and it gets better with time.

I doubt if you would have trouble finding another job if you ever need to. And I really doubt you will ever need to.

My advice going forward:

Let your management know you might be open to a severance package. Heck, you might even consider taking a relocation package, since you're not tied down now. That can cover a lot of the costs it seems you are pondering outside your job. And once you get to the new location, start looking for a new job there.

Second, start reading the threads on "How to live on $100k per year and pay no taxes." You are set up perfectly for that situation. And it helps me to have a goal like that. Figuring that out is actually my new job!
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace." Samuel Adams

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BolderBoy
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by BolderBoy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:43 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am
Accordingly, my question to you is: If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?
Almost certainly, you will be okay. If you stop working now, you'll have a lot of zero-based SS years, so I wouldn't count on a lot of $$$ from SS when the time comes.

You might want to run your $$$ numbers through firecalc.com and see if if you can achieve a consistent, 100% "pass" for a very conservative AA. Be pessimistic in your entries.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect

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catdude
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by catdude » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:59 pm

It seems to me that this is more of a psychological issue than a financial one (and perhaps beyond the scope of this forum). Yes, OP, you're a multi-millionaire, you''ll be fine financially.

OP, you say that you're afraid of failure. I think it might do you some good to have a few sessions with a therapist to get to the bottom of this. Why are you so afraid of failure? Are you afraid your DW will leave you? Afraid that your friends will desert you? Even the most accomplished Boglehead has undoubtedly failed at something. It can confidently be said that if you're never failed at something, you've never done anything. A good therapist can likely help you explore this.

All this being said, we probably shouldn't get into a discussion about this... it may lead to this thread being locked.
catdude | | "As much as cats fight, there always seems to be plenty of kittens." (Abraham Lincoln)

visualguy
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by visualguy » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:36 am

The only things that make little sense to me in OP's post are the concern about not being able to save the extra $135K-$175K with a portfolio of well over $4M, and the fatalism about dropping out of his career so early. Not feeling comfortable with retiring at 42/40 with this nest egg is not all that unreasonable even if a lot of people would love to have that problem. 50 years is an awfully long time. Think about retiring in the days of the moon landings, and being retired until now. A lot can happen in someone's life over such a period.

brolytiz
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by brolytiz » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:54 am

Yeah, end of the job sometimes can be scary. Tomorrow is my last day of work in old one and on Monday I'm starting new one with little better pay and better benefits (less than 100k/year).
My soon to be ex-boss told me today that his worst and best day was when he left Army like 40 years ago. He just started a new chapter of his life. He said if you work hard, job will always finds you.
With you current net worth there is nothing you should be worried about, just be happy to start new chapter in your life.
I'm also little scared in my corner, because I do not like changes in my life, but they will happen from time to time.

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Tamarind
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Tamarind » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:36 am

I would suggest the OP read this one again for some perspective. It's not that the anxiety is not real, it's that by not adressing the anxiety as the problem OP risks a very particular kind of failure that's not on their list of feared scenarios.

OP, what if you waste years of your life worrying about this? You don't know how long your it your wife will live. You genuinely do not need to be working, so why spend life on it unless you enjoy it?

I think you have enough buffer and other resources to protect yourself from most of the items on your list. The other big risk that money and good judgement can't protect you from is divorce. What impact does your anxiety and unhappiness about your job have on your wife? Does she want you to just quit already? What if you put some of this nervous energy into working on making your marriage as happy as possible?
Moneta wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:24 pm
I'm older than you, have two kids, and am still working on accumulating my first $150,000. We've only saved $10K total for the kids' college. I am not able to fully fund my retirement. According to a wealth calculator I ran, I will need to work for the next 25 years, saving 30% of my gross, and I will still only have $1 million or so, and that is only $600,000 in today's dollars, so that would give me a grand total of $24,000 per year to spend (in today's dollars) if I use a 4% withdrawal rate in retirement. $24,000 a year to spend is close to the poverty line.

You have orders of magnitude more than I ever will, and that's awesome! You could do all the things I can't (because I'm stuck working 40 hours a week in exchange for lodging, food, health care, and parenting expenses).

You could travel to every country - take up painting or sculpture - foster abused animals - start a bird sanctuary - self-publish your own poetry - start a charitable giving foundation - invest in some awesome, world-changing tech -- the list goes on and on! You have decades of living ahead of you, and not a single care about paying for your needs. I'm really happy for you. I hope you can feel the full glory of exactly how free you really are to live an abundant life, full of the things that make life worth living. :beer

Compound
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Compound » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:47 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm
marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:39 pm
So, what is really driving this question?

Not long ago you started a thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292873&p=4798664#p4798664) about your fear of quitting, maybe the layoff is really a blessing so you don't have to fret over quitting.
I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.
You will be okay financially. Will you be okay psychologically? That’s another matter.

Random Poster, you seem to think in extreme worst case scenarios and then worry about them, rather than consider options for dealing with those scenarios or considering the full range of much more likely outcomes. Based on this behavioral makeup, if you can’t get past the catastrophizing, then it’s time to take another job once the layoff hits.

Flyer24
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Flyer24 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:20 am

Reminder. Medical advice is beyond the scope of this forum.
Moderator

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Random Poster
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:28 am

Thank you for all of the responses.

Does anyone have an opinion regarding my follow-up question: Should I keep up my weekly investments ($5K a week, taken from the $35K in a money market fund) or conserve that cash?

With 9 weeks left in the year, I was planning on investing an additional $45K. By my math, I would be able to invest that amount using the $35K in the money market fund, plus the expected dividends and interest payments for November and December, and another $3,500---which I would take from my paycheck in November 15, provided I am still employed then.

But should I? Or should I stop the weekly investing and hold on to the cash?

bearwithbear
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by bearwithbear » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:42 am

OP,

Keep up your weekly investments.
It should feel normal.

Bear

retiredjg
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by retiredjg » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:43 am

I don't see any reason to change your investing plans myself. You have plenty of other cash if you should need it.

That $35k represents a plan/agreement you have made with yourself and while I know you feel very uncomfortable, there is no real "dire strait" to navigate yet. Even if something bad does happen, having that $35k in cash will make little difference since you have a separate cash pile much much bigger than that.

CobraKai
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by CobraKai » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:20 am

How did you make all that money at your age? You should be giving us advice lol.

dknightd
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by dknightd » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:28 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm

I'm scared. I'm afraid of failure. I'm worried that I'll make a mistake and lose a bunch of money and not be able to get it back. I'm concerned that my wife gets sick and I won't be able to afford her health care bills because I picked the wrong insurance plan, or because I didn't save enough, or because I got selfish and left the working life too early.

It is one thing to plan to leave work, it is another thing to actually do it.

Likewise, it is one thing to anticipate leaving work at a particular point in time of your own choosing, and it is another thing to have that point in time moved to an earlier date that results in a reshuffling of one's plans or projections.

There is security in working in a job one dislikes. There is security in sending money to one's investment account on a regular basis. There is security in the routine and the mundane.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of security in the unknown.

But it seems like the majority of respondents believe that we will be okay. That is comforting.
These are all natural fears. Even when you plan to leave work on your own terms it can be scary.
You are worrying about something that has not happened yet. Which is also natural.

Based on your assets, and your expenses, you are set to live a comfortable life. Smile and be happy :)

EnjoyIt
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by EnjoyIt » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:37 am

BolderBoy wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:43 pm
Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am
Accordingly, my question to you is: If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?
Almost certainly, you will be okay. If you stop working now, you'll have a lot of zero-based SS years, so I wouldn't count on a lot of $$$ from SS when the time comes.

You might want to run your $$$ numbers through firecalc.com and see if if you can achieve a consistent, 100% "pass" for a very conservative AA. Be pessimistic in your entries.
The way the bend points work in SS, you would be surprised how 15 years of high income will fill up those bend points. I can safely assume that OP has filled up the first bend point and likely very close to filling up the 2nd bend point. The third is not worth the effort.

dknightd
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by dknightd » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:40 am

marcopolo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:40 pm

That aside, if not having money coming in on a regular basis causes you that much anxiety, it may not be a bad idea to continue working in some capacity until you are able to overcome those concerns.
Or buy an annuity with some of your money. I do like that monthly transfer to my bank account ;)

Edit: Make it a dual life annuity so those deposits will continue when one of you dies.

flyingaway
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by flyingaway » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:05 am

As mentioned in another thread, I am financially independent (not as much as you have), and I do want to make some additional money for some specific things (a new car, house renovations, children's weddings, etc.). However, if I or my wife lose our jobs, we will not look for new jobs.
As others have pointed out, you have more than enough to be Okay. If you do lose your job, take some time to relax, and think about what you want to do next (retire, look for a job, travel, etc.). You don't have to be in a hurry to make any decisions.

retiredjg
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by retiredjg » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:12 am

Or buy an annuity with some of your money. I do like that monthly transfer to my bank account ;)
Age 42 is not the ideal time to buy an annuity, but it might give you the assurance of a steady income if you do end up getting laid off.

The only kind of annuity to consider is a SPIA (single payment immediate annuity). It is essentially like buying a pension with part of your savings. Maybe that would allay some of your discomfort about not having a paycheck from work.

Check out immediateannuities.com (I think).

Goal33
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Goal33 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:16 am

I am pretty sure I can make that work at my age of 28 with higher expenses.
A man with one watch always knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never sure.

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