Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

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cherijoh
Posts: 6238
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by cherijoh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:26 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:13 pm
cherijoh wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:22 pm
It turns out they had 4 open positions (2 for each hiring manager) and the job requisitions had been out for a while because they were having problems finding enough qualified people to fill them. I'm pretty sure only one of the 4 positions had been filled at the time of my interview. Everyone was worried that if the rest of the positions didn't get filled ASAP that they would be yanked and the three remaining open slots might turn into 0 or 1 additional positions.
This is a legitimate fear and in my experience has driven a lot of suboptimal hiring behavior. (Not saying anything about cherijoh)
Don't worry. I didn't take it the wrong way! :D

My manager at this megacorp had a position to backfill and he was taking his time trying to find just the right candidate and the job req was pulled before he could offer the job to our final interview candidate (who was a great fit). Fortunately for her, another team was hiring and my boss knew that hiring manager and told him to grab her before she found another job. So at least from her perspective, it worked out fine. Our team had to run one person short for quite some time.

KlangFool
Posts: 13387
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by KlangFool » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:59 am

ARoseByAnyOtherName wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:30 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:31 pm
imsomeguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:24 pm
MarkRoulo wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:32 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:55 pm


imsomeguy,

If I am the hiring manager/interviewer, that statement is a kiss of death. I would not hire you after you said that. And, the bigger problem for you is you have no idea why this is a problem.

KlangFool
That shows the person is not a go-getter.

KlangFool
Eh I get where you are coming from but you also need to hear the rest of the context of the interview. I talk about how I get fully engrained in a problem and like to get my hands dirty and that even though I'm the manager of my team I'm fully involved in their day to day.

Do I get frustrated and beaten down by working for a megacorp? Yes ... But it's not like it comes across that way in an interview
imsomeguy,

<< But I also said that I'm looking to be challenged >>

Still does not explain this away. Your job is whatever you choose it to be. A go-getter will never say this. He/she will find ways to be challenged.

IMHO, there are only two kinds of people,

A) People that make things happened.

B) People that wait and hope for things to show up.

You are type (B).

<<I talk about how I get fully engrained in a problem and like to get my hands dirty and that even though I'm the manager of my team I'm fully involved in their day to day.>>

That shows you take no initiative. You only do whatever is in front of you. You did not ask what you want out of your job and take the initiative to make it happened.

KlangFool
This is a bit harsh on imsomeguy. Like I bet the poor guy isn’t quite one of the sheeple that you make him out to be.

But otherwise this is 10,000% spot on and KlangFool should be given a medal for post of the week.

Just do it.
ARoseByAnyOtherName,

OP is willing to start over and find a new job. But, OP is not willing to make his current job more challenging.

<<Like I bet the poor guy isn’t quite one of the sheeple that you make him out to be.>>

OP is not resourceful. He lets his job to define what he does. He could define his own job to do what he wants instead.

As a hiring manager, I want to hire people that are resourceful. I want people that will find their own ways to be challenged and not waiting around to be challenged. Aka to be told what to do.

KlangFool

stoptothink
Posts: 6065
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:10 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:12 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:50 pm
TropikThunder wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:44 pm
imsomeguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:15 pm
RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:14 pm
Pick up the phone and ask the HR person for any perspective on why you were rejected. Worse they can do is give you non-answers, they may actually relate something worthwhile.
Yep - already have - waiting for feedback
Sorry but that’s honestly a silly suggestion, it just doesn’t work that way anymore. HR is never going to give a direct answer and likely has policies that preclude them from saying anything at all. They can’t even say anything other than start/stop date and salary for former employees on a reference check, and you’re not even that. They’re never going to give feedback on a rejected job candidate (too much liability if they say the wrong thing). You’re lucky you got an actual “thanks but no thanks” letter, usually you just get ghosted.
I've probably received a solid 100 email requests such as this from people I interviewed and didn't hire in the past few years, I've responded to exactly zero of them. It's just awkward; don't do it.
Disagree wholeheartedly. Asking for feedback is totally reasonable and if a company isn’t willing to provide feedback it’s not a type of place you’d ever want to work. We ask for feedback on your interview experience and we’re more than happy to provide feedback on every candidate that interviews with us.

So many people get the candidate experience sooooo wrong these days it’s amazing... then they wonder why.
Well, good luck with that. I'd bet the chances of getting any response are slim. As has been stated already, at many companies responding isn't even allowed due to liability concerns.
Last edited by stoptothink on Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

BV3273
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by BV3273 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am

For every 10 managers or HR people I interviewed with I was lucky to receive 1-2 responses.

I always ask for feedback.

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.

In my industry I found that most companies have a very specific criteria that they had in place for any new hires. There was nothing that I could have done differently to get the position so there was no need for any feedback.

stoptothink
Posts: 6065
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am

BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am
For every 10 managers or HR people I interviewed with I was lucky to receive 1-2 responses.

I always ask for feedback.

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.

In my industry I found that most companies have a very specific criteria that they had in place for any new hires. There was nothing that I could have done differently to get the position so there was no need for any feedback.
People in HR really told you they had an internal candidate? Again, it's a liability concern and there is zero upside for them, which is why if by chance you get a response it is likely to be a totally meaningless wordtrack or a flat out lie. If you want real feedback, do some mock interviews and get them on video. It's amazing how apparent your flaws become when you see yourself on video.

mak1277
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by mak1277 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:39 am

BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.
None of these answers are helpful/actionable for you though, so what's the point.

mak1277
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by mak1277 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:40 am

In terms of getting actionable feedback from rejections, I think the best way to do this is to use a recruiter. Many times, HR or the hiring manager will give more honest feedback about you to your recruiter than they would to a candidate directly.

If OP is interested in a new job, I would strongly recommend finding an industry-connected recruiter to work with (or more than one, TBH).

NoGambleNoFuture
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:17 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:42 am

mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:39 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.
None of these answers are helpful/actionable for you though, so what's the point.
As a team we provide meaningful, actionable feedback for all candidates... even those we hire into elite positions.

I understand this is not the norm - just so easy to do, and especially when passing on a candidate just because now isn’t the right time doesn’t mean 6 months from now won’t be...

BV3273
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by BV3273 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:01 am

mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:39 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.
None of these answers are helpful/actionable for you though, so what's the point.
Some are actionable and some are not. I feel that it continues to show you have an interest in joining the organization. In some instances I had HR reach out to me for future positions because of interest.

tnr
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:36 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by tnr » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:12 am

I agree with Klangfool that it is never good to say you want to be challenged in the job. At best its uninformative and at worst, it leads to judgments like he mentioned. When someone asks why you are interested in the xxxx position, you need to indicate why you are qualified and excited to apply for it. In the corporate world, there is usually opportunity to grow the position - as a hiring manager, that is what I was always looking for. Someone who could not only do the job well but could expand it - take it to new customers, or make it more efficient, etc. So my suggestions to the OP would be 1) only interview for those positions you truly want to get, 2) research those positions like crazy, and 3) during interviews, be as direct and focused in your answers to questions as you can. Good luck.

stoptothink
Posts: 6065
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:25 am

tnr wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:12 am
So my suggestions to the OP would be 1) only interview for those positions you truly want to get, 2) research those positions like crazy, and 3) during interviews, be as direct and focused in your answers to questions as you can. Good luck.
+1. Someone who has done their homework - thoroughly researched the company, has a clear understanding of the role we are hiring for (it's amazing how many people don't even read the job posting thoroughly), comes in with a knowledge of some of the projects my department has or is currently worked on - is always impressive.

BV3273
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by BV3273 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:40 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:42 am
mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:39 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.
None of these answers are helpful/actionable for you though, so what's the point.
As a team we provide meaningful, actionable feedback for all candidates... even those we hire into elite positions.

I understand this is not the norm - just so easy to do, and especially when passing on a candidate just because now isn’t the right time doesn’t mean 6 months from now won’t be...
Bravo!

BV3273
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by BV3273 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am
For every 10 managers or HR people I interviewed with I was lucky to receive 1-2 responses.

I always ask for feedback.

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.

In my industry I found that most companies have a very specific criteria that they had in place for any new hires. There was nothing that I could have done differently to get the position so there was no need for any feedback.
People in HR really told you they had an internal candidate? Again, it's a liability concern and there is zero upside for them, which is why if by chance you get a response it is likely to be a totally meaningless wordtrack or a flat out lie. If you want real feedback, do some mock interviews and get them on video. It's amazing how apparent your flaws become when you see yourself on video.
Yes. This happened twice. Most organizations today would rather promote from within.

stoptothink
Posts: 6065
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:50 am

BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am
For every 10 managers or HR people I interviewed with I was lucky to receive 1-2 responses.

I always ask for feedback.

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.

In my industry I found that most companies have a very specific criteria that they had in place for any new hires. There was nothing that I could have done differently to get the position so there was no need for any feedback.
People in HR really told you they had an internal candidate? Again, it's a liability concern and there is zero upside for them, which is why if by chance you get a response it is likely to be a totally meaningless wordtrack or a flat out lie. If you want real feedback, do some mock interviews and get them on video. It's amazing how apparent your flaws become when you see yourself on video.
Yes. This happened twice. Most organizations today would rather promote from within.
Absolutely, a lot of organizations prefer to promote from within, but I'd question the validity of that response. That's a canned wordtrack answer from an HR employee whose job is to mitigate risk for their employer; it likely isn't true and even if it was, it doesn't do you any good.

mak1277
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by mak1277 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 am

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:50 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am
For every 10 managers or HR people I interviewed with I was lucky to receive 1-2 responses.

I always ask for feedback.

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.

In my industry I found that most companies have a very specific criteria that they had in place for any new hires. There was nothing that I could have done differently to get the position so there was no need for any feedback.
People in HR really told you they had an internal candidate? Again, it's a liability concern and there is zero upside for them, which is why if by chance you get a response it is likely to be a totally meaningless wordtrack or a flat out lie. If you want real feedback, do some mock interviews and get them on video. It's amazing how apparent your flaws become when you see yourself on video.
Yes. This happened twice. Most organizations today would rather promote from within.
Absolutely, a lot of organizations prefer to promote from within, but I'd question the validity of that response. That's a canned wordtrack answer from an HR employee whose job is to mitigate risk for their employer; it likely isn't true and even if it was, it doesn't do you any good.
Agree, and this was my point about none of those responses being actionable. None of them gave you any indication about the specific things the applicant needed to do differently or could improve upon. Their just excuses for why they didn't offer the applicant a job.

BV3273
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by BV3273 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:04 pm

mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:50 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:17 am
For every 10 managers or HR people I interviewed with I was lucky to receive 1-2 responses.

I always ask for feedback.

I don’t really blame people for not responding since we are all on a time crunch. I was thankful for the ones that did respond. Sometimes they had an internal candidate, someone further along in the process, and/or I wasn’t exactly what they were looking for.

In my industry I found that most companies have a very specific criteria that they had in place for any new hires. There was nothing that I could have done differently to get the position so there was no need for any feedback.
People in HR really told you they had an internal candidate? Again, it's a liability concern and there is zero upside for them, which is why if by chance you get a response it is likely to be a totally meaningless wordtrack or a flat out lie. If you want real feedback, do some mock interviews and get them on video. It's amazing how apparent your flaws become when you see yourself on video.
Yes. This happened twice. Most organizations today would rather promote from within.
Absolutely, a lot of organizations prefer to promote from within, but I'd question the validity of that response. That's a canned wordtrack answer from an HR employee whose job is to mitigate risk for their employer; it likely isn't true and even if it was, it doesn't do you any good.
Agree, and this was my point about none of those responses being actionable. None of them gave you any indication about the specific things the applicant needed to do differently or could improve upon. Their just excuses for why they didn't offer the applicant a job.
A lot of assumptions. In both instances I knew both hiring managers from previous roles that I worked in. The role was filled by internal candidates.

mak1277
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by mak1277 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:33 pm

BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:04 pm
mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:50 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am


People in HR really told you they had an internal candidate? Again, it's a liability concern and there is zero upside for them, which is why if by chance you get a response it is likely to be a totally meaningless wordtrack or a flat out lie. If you want real feedback, do some mock interviews and get them on video. It's amazing how apparent your flaws become when you see yourself on video.
Yes. This happened twice. Most organizations today would rather promote from within.
Absolutely, a lot of organizations prefer to promote from within, but I'd question the validity of that response. That's a canned wordtrack answer from an HR employee whose job is to mitigate risk for their employer; it likely isn't true and even if it was, it doesn't do you any good.
Agree, and this was my point about none of those responses being actionable. None of them gave you any indication about the specific things the applicant needed to do differently or could improve upon. Their just excuses for why they didn't offer the applicant a job.
A lot of assumptions. In both instances I knew both hiring managers from previous roles that I worked in. The role was filled by internal candidates.
OK, so what can you learn about yourself by finding out that a role was filled by internal candidates? I'm not saying you're lying, or they were lying, I'm saying that hearing that information is basically useless in terms of being actionable for future job opportunities.

Or are you saying there was a lot more information passed along in addition to that which you omitted from your post?

bankle
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:53 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by bankle » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:27 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:25 am
tnr wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:12 am
So my suggestions to the OP would be 1) only interview for those positions you truly want to get, 2) research those positions like crazy, and 3) during interviews, be as direct and focused in your answers to questions as you can. Good luck.
+1. Someone who has done their homework - thoroughly researched the company, has a clear understanding of the role we are hiring for (it's amazing how many people don't even read the job posting thoroughly), comes in with a knowledge of some of the projects my department has or is currently worked on - is always impressive.
Good points. My additional thoughts:

Are you making yourself a valuable commodity that others will seek out? Are you making yourself visible in your field? Conferences, teaching, speaking, publications (if applicable), making contacts, networking? In some industries, community involvment (fund raising, teaching under-privileged kids, etc) adds value and visibility (and contacts).

Companies see your paper skills (thus the interviews) - are they perhaps sensing that you are "only" seeking what a company can do for you, vs what you can do for the company? (I.e. why are you interviewing with THAT company specifically, and how can YOU specifically add value to their specific goals.) Basically, are they sensing that you are just a "show me the money" kind of candidate (whether true or not).

Also, I agree with the advice to get coaching..Seeong oneself on video can be brutalizing, but effective.

Good luck!

yohac
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by yohac » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:07 pm

imsomeguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:34 am
When asked about why i'm looking for a new job I did indicate that there are certain aspects of my jobs that I like. But I also said that I'm looking to be challenged and I'm looking to go into a position that I'm looking to be a bit 'uncomfortable'. Said I do well when I'm in a new environment and being challenged and growing my professional skillset. Is this a bad reply?
You got overly hammered on that, but it's not a great reply. Good employees find or make their own challenges. Your response conveys a general sense of ennui (probably honestly) which does not help you. You need to convey a sense of excitement for this particular job at this particular company at this particular time. Which can be tricky if you are, in fact, just shopping around.

BV3273
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by BV3273 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:40 pm

mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:33 pm
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:04 pm
mak1277 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 am
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:50 am
BV3273 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:42 am


Yes. This happened twice. Most organizations today would rather promote from within.
Absolutely, a lot of organizations prefer to promote from within, but I'd question the validity of that response. That's a canned wordtrack answer from an HR employee whose job is to mitigate risk for their employer; it likely isn't true and even if it was, it doesn't do you any good.
Agree, and this was my point about none of those responses being actionable. None of them gave you any indication about the specific things the applicant needed to do differently or could improve upon. Their just excuses for why they didn't offer the applicant a job.
A lot of assumptions. In both instances I knew both hiring managers from previous roles that I worked in. The role was filled by internal candidates.
OK, so what can you learn about yourself by finding out that a role was filled by internal candidates? I'm not saying you're lying, or they were lying, I'm saying that hearing that information is basically useless in terms of being actionable for future job opportunities.

Or are you saying there was a lot more information passed along in addition to that which you omitted from your post?
My takeaway was that I was suited for the job, but they had a candidate that they could not turn down because of their current experience with the company.

NewMoneyMustBeSmart
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:28 pm

Re: Help me out - What am I doing wrong - Job Hunt related

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:54 am

imsomeguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:54 am
... boss is a buffoon ... why all the rejections?
Probably because you anonymously call people buffoons.

Stop telling people your boss is a buffoon and have some empathy for the guy. You will likely see better opportunities for yourself at the company and at others.

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