Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Post Reply
Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm

I believe that the majority of us has a large portion of our investments in low cost index funds/ETFs. Then there are those of us who also hold real estate, RSUs, individual stocks, private equity, sector-specific funds, P2P lending accounts, cryptocurrency, commodities, and leveraged ETFs a la HEDGEFUNDIE’s excellent adventure which has so far had excellent results! Or perhaps you hold something even more exotic/niche.

I think it is reasonable to hold investments outside of the traditional boglehead asset allocation and also contend that it adds further diversification and can give a favorable risk adjusted return. Of course, YMMV and most people who try probably underperform plain vanilla index investing.

But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

I ask because I’m considering making a few non-boglehead investments and am wondering what the appropriate size may be. I’m leaning towards 10-50% of total investments - the rub is whether real estate should be counted and how it’s counted. My target allocation might look something like this:

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate

Thoughts? Advice? Admonition?
Last edited by Plz on Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tyler Aspect
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Tyler Aspect » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:43 pm

REITs is about 10% of the total stock market index. I feel that commercial real-estate can be comfortably classified under the category of non-diversified sector stocks that generates non-qualified dividends. Not perfect classification, but close enough.

Image

Commercial real-estates often carries mortgages. These can be modeled as bonds of a negative dollar value.

Investing in leveraged ETFs or investing with margin loans could result in a total loss situation.
Past result does not predict future performance. Mentioned investments may lose money. Contents are presented "AS IS" and any implied suitability for a particular purpose are disclaimed.

HawkeyePierce
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:29 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by HawkeyePierce » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:54 am

Apart from my small allocation to the Excellent Adventure, my only current deviation from the three-fund portfolio is that I split my bond holdings 50/50 between total bond and long term treasuries.

No real estate or individual stocks for me. I sell all my RSUs at the earliest possible time so I don't consider those to be part of my portfolio. I consider crypto to be frauds and scams. The board's consensus view on P2P lending is that it's no longer worth the trouble for small investors. I haven't really studied commodities.

I suspect the largest group on this board after Bogleheads are the Factorheads but I don't see anything about a low-cost index-based factor portfolio that necessarily violates the Bogleheads investment principles.

Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:08 am

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:54 am
Apart from my small allocation to the Excellent Adventure, my only current deviation from the three-fund portfolio is that I split my bond holdings 50/50 between total bond and long term treasuries.

No real estate or individual stocks for me. I sell all my RSUs at the earliest possible time so I don't consider those to be part of my portfolio. I consider crypto to be frauds and scams. The board's consensus view on P2P lending is that it's no longer worth the trouble for small investors. I haven't really studied commodities.

I suspect the largest group on this board after Bogleheads are the Factorheads but I don't see anything about a low-cost index-based factor portfolio that necessarily violates the Bogleheads investment principles.
What percentage is your HEDGEFUNDIE exposure?

I suspect the second largest group is probably real estate, but for one reason or another many don’t count real estate as part of the asset allocation. After that I would bet on individual stocks or gold.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 8372
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii No Ka Oi , N. Arizona

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:41 am

Do include physically held R/E income property purchased and managed well.
REIT index fund to taste. Search thread archives..lots on this addressing REITs as a diversifier.
J🌺
Last edited by Sandtrap on Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

NotWhoYouThink
Posts: 2670
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:19 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:45 am

Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
I believe that the majority of us has a large portion of our investments in low cost index funds/ETFs. Then there are those of us who also hold real estate, RSUs, individual stocks, private equity, sector-specific funds, P2P lending accounts, cryptocurrency, commodities, and leveraged ETFs a la HEDGEFUNDIE’s excellent adventure which has so far had excellent results! Or perhaps you hold something even more exotic/niche.

I think it is reasonable to hold investments outside of the traditional boglehead asset allocation and also contend that it adds further diversification and can give a favorable risk adjusted return. Of course, YMMV and most people who try probably underperform plain vanilla index investing.

But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

I ask because I’m considering making a few non-boglehead investments and am wondering what the appropriate size may be. I’m leaning towards 10-50% of total investments - the rub is whether real estate should be counted and how it’s counted. My target allocation might look something like this:

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate

Thoughts? Advice? Admonition?
"plain vanilla" is a red flag phrase that indicates to me that you have been listening to sales pitches that make index investors sound like sad losers.

Good luck with your investing. No further advice at this time.

bloom2708
Posts: 6765
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:08 pm
Location: Fargo, ND

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by bloom2708 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:48 am

I suggest you try all the alternatives.

Understand they are work and fraught with user error possibilities and wildly varying returns.

Then slowly dump each of them and return to low cost, broad based, tax efficient index funds. :D

Or skip the alternatives (up front) and skip the work and hard learned lessons. Many take their lumps and learn valuable lessons.
“People don’t want advice, they want confirmation.” Unknown

Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:04 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:41 am
Do not include physically held R/E
REIT index fund to taste. Search thread archives..lots on this addressing REITs as a diversifier.
J🌺
Why don’t you include physical real estate?

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 8372
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii No Ka Oi , N. Arizona

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:34 pm

Plz wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:04 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:41 am
Do not include physically held R/E
REIT index fund to taste. Search thread archives..lots on this addressing REITs as a diversifier.
J🌺
Why don’t you include physical real estate?
Oops.
Yikes!
My typo!!!!!!
Do include R/E income property!

Apologies
😬
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:16 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:34 pm
Plz wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:04 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:41 am
Do not include physically held R/E
REIT index fund to taste. Search thread archives..lots on this addressing REITs as a diversifier.
J🌺
Why don’t you include physical real estate?
Oops.
Yikes!
My typo!!!!!!
Do include R/E income property!

Apologies
😬
If I remember correctly, you actually have quite a large RE portfolio. How big is it as a percent of your total investments? Do you feel it’s too big/small? Or, what would be your target size for physical RE as a percent of total investments? Does it impact your asset allocation at all? For instance, if I had physical real estate, I would tilt the boglehead part of the portfolio to hold more stocks and less bonds.

I only ask because I’m targeting ~1/3 exposure to real estate, which I think most here consider unappetizing (part time job/not worthwhile). I view RE quite favorably as a diversified and hard asset that generates income. In my mind, it’s also somewhat in between bonds and stocks, and historically I think has a ~0.6 correlation to stocks.

MoneyMarathon
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 am

Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in?
I've recently ventured, after being a replicate-the-market type for a while (intellectually since the early 2000s and reading Burton Malkiel's "A Random Walk Down Wall Street" and Bogle's essays, with an account at Vanguard since 2012).

Old portfolio:

80% Target Date Funds (Vanguard, Blackrock)
20% VT - Total World Stock

New portfolio:

80% PSLDX - PIMCO Long Duration Total Return Fund Institutional Class
10% MCDFX - Matthews China Dividend Fund Investor Class
5% VXUS - Vanguard Total International (need to have something like this because of a 401k restriction)
5% VIGI - Vanguard International Dividend Appreciation ETF (in taxable)

I'm working to get my international exposure back up with new contributions.

Here's the short summary for each of my three sins:

PSLDX - passive exposure to the S&P 500, diversified exposure to treasuries / corporate / high yield / international bonds, with leverage applied so that one investment gets you both (along with a negative cash position). I'm really happy about this one. If it underperforms, I know that's because yields are going up. If yields are going up, at some point they stop going up and either pay me at a high yield or, even better, come down. Whatever happens, I get compensated more in yield for taking on the term risk. And it's one hell of a cash-efficient way to get bond and equity exposure (no extra button pressing required).

MCDFX - at first, I didn't get the appeal, but it's another HEDGEFUNDIE favorite, so I did a little more research. A majority of stocks in China are held by individual investors who like to trade actively, which is pretty much the opposite of the efficient American stock market where most trading is done by institutional players and most individuals have been educated against trading. Even Vanguard's research says that 50% of active funds in China beat the index funds, which is amazing (in the US, that's approaching 80%-90% underperforming inclusive of costs). This fund gets a rule-based filter, first of all, by buying only dividend-paying stocks, which is a crude but at least mildly effective way to avoid some stocks that are not issued with the idea of providing value to shareholders. Instead of following market cap weightings and mostly ignoring some sectors, it has very broad exposure to all sectors in China, including a tilt to consumer staples, which reduces volatility. The stock-picking part is about focusing on quality and value factors. Using a CAPM factor regression with the AQR data shows that alpha was delivered with statistical significance of the result (p < 0.05). Seeing a statistically significant result for alpha (and historically getting more than 5% annual alpha) in a long-only equity fund is rare to say the least, so I am of course happy to see it in an international equity fund that can be used to diversify. And I am overweight the US already now, so I'm no stranger to being overweight, and if I had to pick one other country to overweight, it would be China.

VIGI - this gives exposure to the quality factor in international, just as it does with dividend growth in the US. The quality factor is one of the largest and most persistent, being tied to the fundamental health of the company and its ability to generate profits. The same basic filter of only getting dividend-paying stocks also applies here, which might help in a world of varying regulations and accounting requirements (not all as strict as the US). Looking for those that increased the dividend for several years helps that basic filter. The resulting index is exposed to many different countries (mostly developed), by whichever have companies domiciled there that are increasing dividends regularly. I hold this in taxable because dividend growers tend to have lower dividends. With the credit for foreign taxes paid and the low dividend yield, it is very tax efficient.
Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio?
Time will tell. Ask me in 10 years.

Since switching on August 2nd (only about three weeks ago), the new portfolio is up more by about 5.5%.
Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments?
95% of my investments now break a strict interpretation.
Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
Would you recommend it?
Yeah.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 8372
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii No Ka Oi , N. Arizona

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:11 am

Plz wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:16 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:34 pm
Plz wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:04 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:41 am
Do not include physically held R/E
REIT index fund to taste. Search thread archives..lots on this addressing REITs as a diversifier.
J🌺
Why don’t you include physical real estate?
Oops.
Yikes!
My typo!!!!!!
Do include R/E income property!

Apologies
😬
If I remember correctly, you actually have quite a large RE portfolio. How big is it as a percent of your total investments? Do you feel it’s too big/small? Or, what would be your target size for physical RE as a percent of total investments? Does it impact your asset allocation at all? For instance, if I had physical real estate, I would tilt the boglehead part of the portfolio to hold more stocks and less bonds.

I only ask because I’m targeting ~1/3 exposure to real estate, which I think most here consider unappetizing (part time job/not worthwhile). I view RE quite favorably as a diversified and hard asset that generates income. In my mind, it’s also somewhat in between bonds and stocks, and historically I think has a ~0.6 correlation to stocks.
1. Before early retirement, 100% R/E multi unit income property, physically held, self managed. Zero market investments. It was my "business".
Post retirement, I have about 20-30% of total assets. It varies. If the R/E market crashes and it becomes a buyers market similar to post 2008 then that would be a good time to grow. At one time, rentals could be had in prime areas for well under 80-90k per door. Will we ever see that again? Dunno.
2. I don't have a limit to R/E income property holdings as a percentage of total assets as long as they are purchased wisely (no over leveraging, no SPF, minimal SFH, highest CAP/ROI . . . and properly managed "as a business".
Yes. R/E can indeed be a foundation for substantial wealth.
3. Investment portfolio allocation, IMHO, is best approached outside of physical R/E. One is an investment, the other a "business". That is the most conservative and safest approach. Keep it simple. Maximize income on one end. Preserve and grow assets on the other. *Again. IMHO, R/E holdings should not change one's allocation. One can, but why?
4. I think that REIT's (index) have a historical correlation to equities of from .3 in the far past to .68 or so. If held as 10% (for some up to 30% or more) in one's portfolio, then that can be an allocation to R/E (alternatives). Ferri suggests no more than 10% but everyone differs. There are some long threads on this. Great input from "Abuss". My REIT (index fund) allocation is between 10-20%. Why only that much? The REIT industry is evolving and adapting to the changing economy, thus, volatility.

The forum encourages diversification. That can include diversification of income stream as well, which R/E income property is a good example. It's not for everyone, just as REIT's are not for everyone. But, that doesn't mean that they are not good things.

Good luck.
j :D
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

asif408
Posts: 1791
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:34 am
Location: Florida

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by asif408 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:49 am

For the most part I follow the Boglehead principles of low cost and broad diversification. Where I differ is that I have no problem making large shifts in my stock allocation from time to time and looking different. For instance since late 2016 my portfolio has been approximately:

65% EM (about 90% of that in EM Value)
10% Int'l Index
15% Gold Miners
10% Global Energy Producers

I've had this allocation since late 2016. A few years earlier I had pretty hefty US allocations as well as REITs along with bonds. My rationale is based on changing valuations among stock asset classes, which many here poo-poo, so you'll have to decide for yourself if that is important. Most people would consider this an extreme portfolio since I own no US stocks or bonds. I likely will in the future.

I don't expect to make any major changes to this allocation for at least another 5-10 years, though I'm doing some modest rebalancing with the gold miner position because of its strong performance since September of last year (up 60%). Among the EM Value, which is my biggest holding, most of it is in the lowest cost EM Value index I could find (there are no true EM Value indexes, so I use one of the RAFI funds), which is well diversified. I also tilt that portion slightly to the lowest CAPE countries and poorest performing countries in the last few years, so right now I have some minor holdings (less than 10%) in individual countries, such as Brazil, Poland, South Korea, Turkey, and Russia. The international index is in Vanguard's which is low cost, and the gold miners and global energy producers funds were the cheapest I could find from IShares.

On the bond side, although I don't currently own any bonds right now, in the past I've typically stuck with short to intermediate term Treasuries, I-bonds, and high yield savings accounts. So overall I'm pretty standard when it comes to fixed income, it's mainly in my stock allocation where I deviate from the standard Boglehead advice.

I've underperformed a more traditional 3 fund portfolio by about 2% since late 2016, primarily because the 3 fund portfolio is almost all US stocks and bonds, which I currently own none of, except those which are part of the sector funds. It appears since October of last year I have actually outperformed by about 5%, so we'll see if this continues (mainly due to my large gold miners holding which is up 60% from September 2018 and a few of the individual country ETFs which are up a lot since then as well). But I expected that I might underperform in the first couple of years, my view is that longer term the valuations (and the currencies) are in favor of EM and international stocks.

I think if you're going to make non-Bogleheads investments the principles of broad diversification and low cost are still important. In my portfolio, no one country makes up more 20% of my total portfolio, and I own no individual stocks. You could legitimately argue I'm missing the biggest country by world market cap, which is true. I just believe the prospects for good returns from the US stock market in the future are much lower than the rest of the world. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to make a big bet on that.

I think the size of the position is based on how big a bet you want to make and how long you can stomach underperforming if you do. I have no problem underperforming for the next several years if in 10-20 years I come out ahead. You may feel differently.

User avatar
Tyler Aspect
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Tyler Aspect » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm

MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 am
PSLDX - passive exposure to the S&P 500, diversified exposure to treasuries / corporate / high yield / international bonds, with leverage applied so that one investment gets you both (along with a negative cash position). I'm really happy about this one. If it underperforms, I know that's because yields are going up. If yields are going up, at some point they stop going up and either pay me at a high yield or, even better, come down. Whatever happens, I get compensated more in yield for taking on the term risk. And it's one hell of a cash-efficient way to get bond and equity exposure (no extra button pressing required).
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover. You can imagine its excellent return is counter balanced by a chance of total loss, which is a raw deal in my opinion. 80% of your portfolio is this thing!

In the case of ProShares at least they come out and disclose the risks clearly in their prospectus documents. Pimco's PSLDX prospectus is less direct in spelling out the chance of total loss.
Past result does not predict future performance. Mentioned investments may lose money. Contents are presented "AS IS" and any implied suitability for a particular purpose are disclaimed.

MoneyMarathon
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm

Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover.
Yeah, it took a lot of trouble for me to figure out that this is wrong and that it misunderstands the nature of maintaining a constant proportion of leverage to net assets, which is different from taking out some fixed dollar amount of leverage and never deleveraging. Combining stocks and bonds into one fund is also crucial (and a big convenience). It's not for everyone. People shouldn't invest in what they don't understand.

User avatar
Tyler Aspect
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Tyler Aspect » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:20 pm

MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm
Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover.
Yeah, it took a lot of trouble for me to figure out that this is wrong and that it misunderstands the nature of maintaining a constant proportion of leverage to net assets, which is different from taking out some fixed dollar amount of leverage and never deleveraging. Combining stocks and bonds into one fund is also crucial (and a big convenience). It's not for everyone. People shouldn't invest in what they don't understand.
There is not much difference. With a good old margin loan you are faced with a margin call and the balloon pops all of a sudden. When it is a fund, the fund can sell assets to pay off the margin ahead of time, which is letting air out of the balloon. End effect is the same though - no air in the balloon.
Past result does not predict future performance. Mentioned investments may lose money. Contents are presented "AS IS" and any implied suitability for a particular purpose are disclaimed.

MoneyMarathon
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:40 pm

Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:20 pm
MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm
Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover.
Yeah, it took a lot of trouble for me to figure out that this is wrong and that it misunderstands the nature of maintaining a constant proportion of leverage to net assets, which is different from taking out some fixed dollar amount of leverage and never deleveraging. Combining stocks and bonds into one fund is also crucial (and a big convenience). It's not for everyone. People shouldn't invest in what they don't understand.
There is not much difference. With a good old margin loan you are faced with a margin call and the balloon pops all of a sudden. When it is a fund, the fund can sell assets to pay off the margin ahead of time, which is letting air out of the balloon. End effect is the same though - no air in the balloon.
It's a good thing, then, that my exposure to the S&P 500 in PSLDX is only 100% of net assets.

I would not suggest someone go for 200% leveraged exposure to equity, at least without rebalancing with something other than stocks. However, even if someone were doing something that silly, for example by buying the 2x leveraged SSO, they're up over the S&P 500...

Image

So even doing the dumb thing, someone could "have a near total loss" (80% drawdown) and do better than the S&P 500.

Here's the comparison with PSLDX, which has stocks and bonds, with leverage so that 100% of net assets are exposed to the S&P 500 and the rest of the exposure is in bonds (both government and corporate, including some international and high yield, with a little over 2x leverage applied to a much more efficient, higher Sharpe, lower volatility portfolio than all stocks).

Image

It went through the great financial crisis like a champion. This is not a simulation. This is the real thing.

The worst case scenario is stagflation. I've concluded on the basis of the data that something like PSLDX would have went through the decade of the 1970s with a slightly positive nominal return and a negative real return. I'm at peace with that. Higher yields set it up for awesome forward-looking returns, so those with the time and the patience would be very well rewarded just buying more all the way through the 1970s. The 1980s, obviously, were awesome for the strategy.

I've asked questions, investigated, studied, and checked the angles on this. Now I'm happy to have most of my life savings in it, which says something about how sure I am that you're wrong. But there's room for people to take the other side, by avoiding leverage - they may have the last laugh, and if so they certainly will have earned it. And I'm certainly glad to let them try to have it... but I'm not worried about it. Not everyone has the same strategy, and that's fine with me.

Bosro
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:41 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Bosro » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:11 pm

Does your 401k offer PSLDX? Been looking at my options and it appears that my solo 401k at E*TRADE has it available to purchase with no minimum and $20 fee.

MoneyMarathon
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:27 pm

Bosro wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:11 pm
Does your 401k offer PSLDX? Been looking at my options and it appears that my solo 401k at E*TRADE has it available to purchase with no minimum and $20 fee.
I can get it through a Schwab PCRA brokerage window in my employer's 401k.

Bosro
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:41 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Bosro » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:53 pm

I have the same option as well. Is it a 100k initial minimum purchase?

MoneyMarathon
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:24 pm

Bosro wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:53 pm
I have the same option as well. Is it a 100k initial minimum purchase?
Schwab minimum is $1. Most places that have it offer a low minimum purchase, such as $1 or $100. For example, Ally Invest, E-Trade, and Schwab have low minimums, with Ally Invest at $100 minimum and the others at $1. Ally Invest has the lowest commission ($10). E-Trade has a $20 commission. Schwab PCRA had a $50 commission when I bought it.

Vanguard offers it in some tax-advantaged accounts with a $25,000 minimum (and $20 commission). Fidelity and Merrill Edge don't seem to offer it currently.

Bosro
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:41 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Bosro » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:43 pm

Thanks for the detailed info. Exactly what I was looking for. Greatly appreciated. :sharebeer

Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:43 pm

I think the only case of complete loss would come from the leveraged fund being down 100%/leverage factor in one day?

So say 33.3% for UPRO?

User avatar
patrick013
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:49 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by patrick013 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:05 pm

Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm

But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

Not a big fan of Intl but assuming the market will hit 3500 not tomorrow but not never even thinking that growth is not infinite there are some options AA wise.

For general indexes LC, MC, SC and Interm Trsy's equal AA.

For factors LC growth, LC quality, LC high dividend, and Interm Trsy's equal AA.

Both have backtested well and are good indexes.

There's always the TSM and a CD/TRSY ladder.

Here's another. VG Dividend Growth and VG Interm Muni's.

But the 3 fund is nice if you keep the Intl AA a bit low.
age in bonds, buy-and-hold, 10 year business cycle

User avatar
Horton
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Horton » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:03 pm

My biggest investment - bigger than my stock/bond portfolio - is my human capital.
🏃 since 2005

GibsonL6s
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:17 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by GibsonL6s » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:27 pm

I have less than 10% in individual stocks, leveraged ETFs and high yield muni which are pre BH investments. My day job provides RE exposure, so I do not invest in RE assets outside of work. I have virtually no interest in thinking about anything other than what I want my AA to be. I could see an occasional foray into a small individual stock position for fun only.

jmk
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by jmk » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:56 pm

For purely personal reasons (to temper my regret of all the fads), I allocate 25% of equity to an even mix of odds-and-ends: value, emerging, multifactor, long-short, reit.

Lee_WSP
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:15 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Lee_WSP » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:20 pm
MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm
Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover.
Yeah, it took a lot of trouble for me to figure out that this is wrong and that it misunderstands the nature of maintaining a constant proportion of leverage to net assets, which is different from taking out some fixed dollar amount of leverage and never deleveraging. Combining stocks and bonds into one fund is also crucial (and a big convenience). It's not for everyone. People shouldn't invest in what they don't understand.
There is not much difference. With a good old margin loan you are faced with a margin call and the balloon pops all of a sudden. When it is a fund, the fund can sell assets to pay off the margin ahead of time, which is letting air out of the balloon. End effect is the same though - no air in the balloon.
People say this about the stock market. They said it in 1929 and they said it in 2008. But as long as there's people willing to buy stocks and lend money, both will still keep humming along.

Of course the value could go to zero, but such an apocalyptic scenario means we've all got bigger things to worry about.

You basically sound like those doomsday people. Sure, one day the world will end. But not today.

james22
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:22 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by james22 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:13 am

Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

...

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate
10% boglehead equity exposure (SV, EM)
50% boglehead bond exposure (stable value, cash value of pension)
30% individual stocks (BRK, BAM)
10% non-boglehead (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac)

50/50 high risk/no risk.

40% non-Boglehead.

Would NOT recommend.

Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:15 am

james22 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:13 am
Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

...

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate
10% boglehead equity exposure (SV, EM)
50% boglehead bond exposure (stable value, cash value of pension)
30% individual stocks (BRK, BAM)
10% non-boglehead (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac)

50/50 high risk/no risk.

40% non-Boglehead.

Would NOT recommend.
If you wouldn’t recommend it, what’s keeping you in it?

james22
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:22 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by james22 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:54 am

1. Because I understand my rationale.

2. Because I don't assume what works for me would necessarily work for others.

3. Because even if I believed the portfolio would work for another, they wouldn't necessarily understand the rationale and so might abandon the strategy/portfolio at an inopportune time.

we1
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:24 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by we1 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:26 pm

Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
I believe that the majority of us has a large portion of our investments in low cost index funds/ETFs. Then there are those of us who also hold real estate, RSUs, individual stocks, private equity, sector-specific funds, P2P lending accounts, cryptocurrency, commodities, and leveraged ETFs a la HEDGEFUNDIE’s excellent adventure which has so far had excellent results! Or perhaps you hold something even more exotic/niche.

I think it is reasonable to hold investments outside of the traditional boglehead asset allocation and also contend that it adds further diversification and can give a favorable risk adjusted return. Of course, YMMV and most people who try probably underperform plain vanilla index investing.

But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

I ask because I’m considering making a few non-boglehead investments and am wondering what the appropriate size may be. I’m leaning towards 10-50% of total investments - the rub is whether real estate should be counted and how it’s counted. My target allocation might look something like this:

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate

Thoughts? Advice? Admonition?
Make sure you know how you want to benchmark your performance so that you can stay the course even when you have periods where the asset classes you’re in underperform 2 or 3 fund BH port. Otherwise, your plan is reasonable

3funder
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:35 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by 3funder » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:31 am

Publicly traded REITs are included in VTSAX and VTIAX.

Topic Author
Plz
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Plz » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:23 am

we1 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:26 pm
Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
I believe that the majority of us has a large portion of our investments in low cost index funds/ETFs. Then there are those of us who also hold real estate, RSUs, individual stocks, private equity, sector-specific funds, P2P lending accounts, cryptocurrency, commodities, and leveraged ETFs a la HEDGEFUNDIE’s excellent adventure which has so far had excellent results! Or perhaps you hold something even more exotic/niche.

I think it is reasonable to hold investments outside of the traditional boglehead asset allocation and also contend that it adds further diversification and can give a favorable risk adjusted return. Of course, YMMV and most people who try probably underperform plain vanilla index investing.

But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

I ask because I’m considering making a few non-boglehead investments and am wondering what the appropriate size may be. I’m leaning towards 10-50% of total investments - the rub is whether real estate should be counted and how it’s counted. My target allocation might look something like this:

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate

Thoughts? Advice? Admonition?
Make sure you know how you want to benchmark your performance so that you can stay the course even when you have periods where the asset classes you’re in underperform 2 or 3 fund BH port. Otherwise, your plan is reasonable
I think there may be a number of ways to benchmark, and I try to benchmark in more than one way. For example, how do returns compare within each bucket (equities vs equities, bonds vs bonds, real estate vs REITs)? How did returns overall compare to a 70/30 or 60/40 portfolio?

aristotelian
Posts: 6194
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:05 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by aristotelian » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:18 am

What is the purpose of "counting" real estate etc? If you are trying to make SWR calculations, that research is all based on historical data for stocks and bonds. I think the best thing to do in that case is to figure the income generated by the alternatives separately and then figure out a SWR for your stock/bond portfolio.

If you are seeking to assess the risk profile of your portfolio, I would consider real estate (not REITs) and alternatives as separate asset classes but equivalent to stocks in risk.

Individual stocks do not compensate you for higher risk and by definition do not add diversification. Just say no.

rascott
Posts: 893
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by rascott » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:22 am

Looking at all my investments:

55% BH equity exposure (Total Market and SCV heavy tilt)
35% Rental Real Estate (leveraged @ roughly 40% LTV)
5% cash
5% smorgasbord of different leveraged funds/ portfolios (plan is to slowly increase this to 15%)

Doesn't include primary residence that has a large amount of equity (roughly 20% of NW)
Last edited by rascott on Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

rascott
Posts: 893
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by rascott » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:33 am

Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm
MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 am
PSLDX - passive exposure to the S&P 500, diversified exposure to treasuries / corporate / high yield / international bonds, with leverage applied so that one investment gets you both (along with a negative cash position). I'm really happy about this one. If it underperforms, I know that's because yields are going up. If yields are going up, at some point they stop going up and either pay me at a high yield or, even better, come down. Whatever happens, I get compensated more in yield for taking on the term risk. And it's one hell of a cash-efficient way to get bond and equity exposure (no extra button pressing required).
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover. You can imagine its excellent return is counter balanced by a chance of total loss, which is a raw deal in my opinion. 80% of your portfolio is this thing!

In the case of ProShares at least they come out and disclose the risks clearly in their prospectus documents. Pimco's PSLDX prospectus is less direct in spelling out the chance of total loss.

Pimco has been running this strategy since 1986.

In a world that these funds went to zero, so would basically every BH portfolio. And we'd all have a lot more to be concerned with than our asset allocations.

MotoTrojan
Posts: 6133
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MotoTrojan » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:28 am

Allocation is 55% Total US, 25% Total Int, 20% SCV US. Currently 30% is in a hedgefundie-light allocation of 43/57 UPRO/EDV and I consider this as part of the Total US (I hope to dilute this quite a bit in the coming years). I’m also planning to start a position in NTSX (90/60 S&P500/treasuries) which I’ll also consider in that bucket.

Once I start actually tracking an allocation to bonds (will be many years at this point) I may need to begin splitting those funds out more to keep things balanced but for the next decade or so it should provide all the bond exposure I could need.

I find PSLDX fascinating by the way but prefer treasuries on the bond side so holding my 43/57 in Roth and NTSX in taxable is a compromise.
Last edited by MotoTrojan on Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

MotoTrojan
Posts: 6133
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MotoTrojan » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:33 am

Tyler Aspect wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:37 pm
MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:59 am
PSLDX - passive exposure to the S&P 500, diversified exposure to treasuries / corporate / high yield / international bonds, with leverage applied so that one investment gets you both (along with a negative cash position). I'm really happy about this one. If it underperforms, I know that's because yields are going up. If yields are going up, at some point they stop going up and either pay me at a high yield or, even better, come down. Whatever happens, I get compensated more in yield for taking on the term risk. And it's one hell of a cash-efficient way to get bond and equity exposure (no extra button pressing required).
As with all leveraged funds I expect it eventually to have a near total loss and not recover. You can imagine its excellent return is counter balanced by a chance of total loss, which is a raw deal in my opinion. 80% of your portfolio is this thing!

In the case of ProShares at least they come out and disclose the risks clearly in their prospectus documents. Pimco's PSLDX prospectus is less direct in spelling out the chance of total loss.
To put it nicely, you are incorrect. It would be great if you could educate yourself before trashing ideas. If you are comfortable with 100% S&P500 and with 100% bonds (active managed but still) separately never going to 0, then you shouldn’t have any reason to expect this to even get close.

User avatar
Taylor Larimore
Advisory Board
Posts: 28671
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:09 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:51 am

My target allocation might look something like this:

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate

Thoughts? Advice? Admonition?
Piz:

The Three-Fund Portfolio contains over 15,000 securities.

Please read my "Simplicity" link below.

Best wishes
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "When there are multiple solutions to a problem choose the simplest one"
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

Valuethinker
Posts: 38808
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:27 am

Plz wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm
I believe that the majority of us has a large portion of our investments in low cost index funds/ETFs. Then there are those of us who also hold real estate, RSUs, individual stocks, private equity, sector-specific funds, P2P lending accounts, cryptocurrency, commodities, and leveraged ETFs a la HEDGEFUNDIE’s excellent adventure which has so far had excellent results! Or perhaps you hold something even more exotic/niche.

I think it is reasonable to hold investments outside of the traditional boglehead asset allocation and also contend that it adds further diversification and can give a favorable risk adjusted return. Of course, YMMV and most people who try probably underperform plain vanilla index investing.

But I’m curious - for those of you that have ventured outside of the traditional boglehead portfolio, what did you invest in/are you invested in? How did you do compared to the boglehead portfolio? How big are the non-boglehead investments as a percentage of your total investments? Would you recommend it?

I ask because I’m considering making a few non-boglehead investments and am wondering what the appropriate size may be. I’m leaning towards 10-50% of total investments - the rub is whether real estate should be counted and how it’s counted. My target allocation might look something like this:

40% boglehead equity exposure
10% boglehead bond exposure
10% individual stocks
10% non-boglehead
30% real estate

Thoughts? Advice? Admonition?
Directly owned is really is a separate asset class really.

GermanDoc
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:48 am

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by GermanDoc » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:23 am

I'm just under 30, live in Germany, work as a physician, most of my assets are from an inheritance.
My Asset Allocation is:

70 % Risk oriented:
- 30 % Global Large Cap (MSCI World)
- 14% EM Stock (MSCI EM IMI)
- 10,5% Global Small Cap (MSCI World Small)
- 5,5% REIT
- 3,5% Gold (I didn't buy it, part of the inheritance)
- 4% EM sovereign bonds
- 2% Crypto (80% BTC)
- 1% P2P

30% Safety oriented:
- 15% all maturity highest rated EU government bonds
- 15% Savings account
Last edited by GermanDoc on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
pokebowl
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:22 pm
Location: The Orion Spur of the Milky Way galaxy.

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by pokebowl » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:43 am

I've been trying to target the emerging space sector for awhile. I believe only recently as of late last year some ETFs are now being offered to retail investors, however interesting enough they diverge into completely different focus areas (UFO versus ROKT for example).

So myself I have a small tilt around 10% in individual stocks and one private stock that align to my view of this sector until it matures (Or experiences a rapid unscheduled disassembly event :beer).
Nullius in verba.

MotoTrojan
Posts: 6133
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MotoTrojan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:44 am

pokebowl wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:43 am
I've been trying to target the emerging space sector for awhile. I believe only recently as of late last year some ETFs are now being offered to retail investors, however interesting enough they diverge into completely different focus areas (UFO versus ROKT for example).

So myself I have a small tilt around 10% in individual stocks and one private stock that align to my view of this sector until it matures (Or experiences a rapid unscheduled disassembly event :beer).
As someone in the industry I'd be curious to know what your private stock was and how you acquired it; I sold all of mine from previous employer.

User avatar
pokebowl
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:22 pm
Location: The Orion Spur of the Milky Way galaxy.

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by pokebowl » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:52 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:44 am

As someone in the industry I'd be curious to know what your private stock was and how you acquired it; I sold all of mine from previous employer.
Worked for said employer, though the holding is basically illiquid, I believe if I wanted to "sell", the company would be the only one buying it.
Nullius in verba.

MotoTrojan
Posts: 6133
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by MotoTrojan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:04 pm

pokebowl wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:52 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:44 am

As someone in the industry I'd be curious to know what your private stock was and how you acquired it; I sold all of mine from previous employer.
Worked for said employer, though the holding is basically illiquid, I believe if I wanted to "sell", the company would be the only one buying it.
Makes sense. In my case the company (and investors) bought the shares back regularly.

getjiggy
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: Looking at investment asset allocation in more detail than stocks/bonds

Post by getjiggy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:58 pm

MoneyMarathon wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:24 pm
Bosro wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:53 pm
I have the same option as well. Is it a 100k initial minimum purchase?
Schwab minimum is $1. Most places that have it offer a low minimum purchase, such as $1 or $100. For example, Ally Invest, E-Trade, and Schwab have low minimums, with Ally Invest at $100 minimum and the others at $1. Ally Invest has the lowest commission ($10). E-Trade has a $20 commission. Schwab PCRA had a $50 commission when I bought it.

Vanguard offers it in some tax-advantaged accounts with a $25,000 minimum (and $20 commission). Fidelity and Merrill Edge don't seem to offer it currently.
To clarify for Schwab IRA accounts I believe the min is $100,000.

Post Reply