I really do not like using credit cards. Do any of you have a good credit score with no credit cards?

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ResearchMed
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by ResearchMed » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:24 am

Knglou wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:16 am
If you use a visa debit card you have protections
https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html

Protections for Visa Debit cards
When you sign for purchases, Visa Debit card's security protections help prevent fraud with following features:

Visa's Zero Liability Policy, which protects you from unauthorized charges. Any funds taken from your account due to fraudulent use will be returned to your card.
Continuous fraud monitoring to detect suspicious activity on your debit card
A 3-digit security code to verify your identity for Internet and phone purchases


If your Visa Debit card is lost or stolen and fraudulent activity occurs, you are protected by Visa's Zero Liability Policy. That means 100 percent protection for you. Whether purchases occur online or off, you pay nothing for fraudulent activity.

You can read the rest on the visa website I am not sure of MasterCard never used them
How long does it take to get the money back? How long for them to determine whether it is fraud or not?

With charge cards (most of them, and Amex definitely), once you file a dispute, they put a "hold" on the charge, and you don't have to pay it until/IF the dispute is not determined in your favor. So even if it takes quite a while to get settled, you aren't "out" the money. You still have all of the money in your checking/bank/etc., account as you started with.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Jags4186 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:27 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:24 am
Knglou wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:16 am
If you use a visa debit card you have protections
https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html

Protections for Visa Debit cards
When you sign for purchases, Visa Debit card's security protections help prevent fraud with following features:

Visa's Zero Liability Policy, which protects you from unauthorized charges. Any funds taken from your account due to fraudulent use will be returned to your card.
Continuous fraud monitoring to detect suspicious activity on your debit card
A 3-digit security code to verify your identity for Internet and phone purchases


If your Visa Debit card is lost or stolen and fraudulent activity occurs, you are protected by Visa's Zero Liability Policy. That means 100 percent protection for you. Whether purchases occur online or off, you pay nothing for fraudulent activity.

You can read the rest on the visa website I am not sure of MasterCard never used them
How long does it take to get the money back? How long for them to determine whether it is fraud or not?

With charge cards (most of them, and Amex definitely), once you file a dispute, they put a "hold" on the charge, and you don't have to pay it until/IF the dispute is not determined in your favor. So even if it takes quite a while to get settled, you aren't "out" the money. You still have all of the money in your checking/bank/etc., account as you started with.

RM
Yes that is the rub. If your debit card is stolen your money is missing and you need to get it back. Big problems if you need that money. If your credit card is stolen the merchant’s/CC company is out the money. You still have hassle but your money isn’t missing in the meantime.

Knglou
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Knglou » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:37 am

When I had fraud on my debit card a few years ago my credit union shut down my card and contacted me to ask about the charges I reported them as fraud and they started the process of getting a new card sent to me it was over the weekend so that took extra time. It took a few days but by Wednesday I had the new pin number and Thursday new card I belong to a credit union so I could go into any credit union co-op member and get cash but I just used my wife's debit card till then. By the time I got my new card all the money that was fraudulently used was back. There is a few more protections now adays with my credit union like text/email alert for any charges on debit card or checking account you can also lock you card if you think you lost it also I heard of a way of asigning virtual numbers for paying bills or things online I haven't looked into that yet but will soon.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by whodidntante » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:40 am

Mr. Ramsey's argument against rich people having credit cards is based on his spurious morals. He does not use sound reasoning. "I don't borrow money," says Mr. Ramsey. Well, good on him.

But I do borrow money and I benefit from having credit cards. Be careful with hero worship, OP. I think he is leading you down a bad path. I might make an exception if your use of credit is counterproductive and you are unable to get control.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by dknightd » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:44 am

iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I am thinking of having no credit cards.
Never tried it. credit is so handy. Not sure why you'd want to give it all up.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by adamthesmythe » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:56 am

iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:11 pm
adamthesmythe wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:10 pm
Do you ever travel?
No
Well I travel, and I KNOW I would have trouble without a credit card, because I had trouble decades ago when I interviewed for my first real job.

The are people who really, really, shouldn't have credit cards. I have known such people, but I am not one of them. Yes, it would be possible to live without a credit card, with difficulty, if you didn't venture far from home. Doing so is between an amusing affectation and a peculiar fetish. Like living in a tiny house, eating only raw foods, or being afraid of wireless water meters. I have my eccentricities but living without credit cards will not be one of them.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am

fortfun wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm
We'd give up a free 5k worth of bonuses per year if we gave up CCs. So, I'll keep using them for that reason alone. Not to mention all the protections that are built in.
Doesn’t churning credit cards to get the bonuses wreck your credit? Obviously not or you wouldn’t be doing it. But it seems your credit score should go down with all the credit you now have available, to say nothing of the perception it gives of credit unworthiness to be making so many applications.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Brianmcg321 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:06 am

3-20Characters wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:34 am
Not having at least one credit card is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

- you’ll never use a hotel? Not true
- never rent a car? Not true
- don’t like free 30 day loans? What do I need this for?
- don’t like getting cash back on purchases? Doesn't matter
- don’t like free warranties and other perks like roadside assistance? I have AAA
- don’t like having your recurring bills paid automatically? My bank does this.

I could go on.
I could also.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by TropikThunder » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:27 am

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am
fortfun wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm
We'd give up a free 5k worth of bonuses per year if we gave up CCs. So, I'll keep using them for that reason alone. Not to mention all the protections that are built in.
Doesn’t churning credit cards to get the bonuses wreck your credit? Obviously not or you wouldn’t be doing it. But it seems your credit score should go down with all the credit you now have available, to say nothing of the perception it gives of credit unworthiness to be making so many applications.
You score goes up, not down, when you increase the amount of available credit. And we’re not talking 5-10 applications per year, more like 1-2 max which has little effect on your score since they fall off after two years.

H-Town
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by H-Town » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:28 am

iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I am thinking of having no credit cards.
Bad idea. Go for it if you don't like free money, zero liability protection, and many more.

Just for bonus points alone, I get many free hotel stays and free flight tickets. When I travel for work, the amount of points I get for reimbursed business expenses are enough to fund my weekend trips.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:34 am

iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I am thinking of having no credit cards.
If you have problems keeping within your monthly budget, down to being chronically in debt with credit cards, then it's a strategy.

In the credit card industry, people who pay off their balances at End of Month are known as "deadbeats".

However the consumer protections in credit cards are far greater. The risks of someone draining your account having obtained your debit card details is very real. Even more real if you go abroad, perhaps.

In general to spend money with plastic, you should use a credit card - it is safer.

So the Angel of your Worser Nature v. the greater consumer protections of a credit card.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by arf30 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:36 am

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am
fortfun wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm
We'd give up a free 5k worth of bonuses per year if we gave up CCs. So, I'll keep using them for that reason alone. Not to mention all the protections that are built in.
Doesn’t churning credit cards to get the bonuses wreck your credit? Obviously not or you wouldn’t be doing it. But it seems your credit score should go down with all the credit you now have available, to say nothing of the perception it gives of credit unworthiness to be making so many applications.
It actually goes up, due to reduced utilization.

TropikThunder
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by TropikThunder » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:43 am

Brianmcg321 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:06 am
3-20Characters wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:34 am
Not having at least one credit card is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

- you’ll never use a hotel? Not true
- never rent a car? Not true
- don’t like free 30 day loans? What do I need this for?
- don’t like getting cash back on purchases? Doesn't matter
- don’t like free warranties and other perks like roadside assistance? I have AAA
- don’t like having your recurring bills paid automatically? My bank does this.

I could go on.
I could also.
AAA isn’t free. And while it’s become more common to rent cars and reserve hotel rooms with debit cards, it’s not all-or-nothing like in years past but it’s definitely more difficult. Both the estimated rental fee and reserve/incidentals are immediately withdrawn from your account, and it can take up to a two weeks for the released deposit to be returned (but it’s usually faster).

Also, some car rental companies don’t accept them, and some locations of those who do can opt-out and require credit cards. Also, for Enterprise at least, you can’t rent in-town with a debit card since they require proof of outbound travel. You can pay with a debit card when you return the vehicle, but you need a credit card to initiate the rental.

I could go on. :P

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by sheepla » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:02 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:25 pm
I relied on a debit card for about a year, before I ran into a snag. My 20-year old car was stalling out, I brought it to a local shop and walked across the street to rent a car from Hertz -- they wanted a credit card. So, I walked back home and managed without a car for a couple days.
THIS. It is getting harder and harder to rent a car without a credit card.

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fortfun
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by fortfun » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:47 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am
fortfun wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm
We'd give up a free 5k worth of bonuses per year if we gave up CCs. So, I'll keep using them for that reason alone. Not to mention all the protections that are built in.
Doesn’t churning credit cards to get the bonuses wreck your credit? Obviously not or you wouldn’t be doing it. But it seems your credit score should go down with all the credit you now have available, to say nothing of the perception it gives of credit unworthiness to be making so many applications.
Mine has bounced between 800 and 840. It takes a bit of a hit when you close a card but bounces back up after a few months. Opening new cards actually improves your score, surprisingly.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Abe » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Turbo29 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:04 pm
There have been lots of gas station skimmers found in my area. One woman on TV claims to have had her bank account completely drained and claims the bank did not believe her when she claimed fraud. After several weeks she straightened it out and got her money back.

Had she used a credit card at the gas pump instead of a debit card she would not have been without cash to pay her bills for several weeks.
Same thing happened to my brother in law. He used a debit card to get gas and someone got his number and drained his bank account. The credit union would not reimburse him. I had to loan him the money to pay his bills, and he's paying me back at $100 a month.
Slow and steady wins the race.

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iamblessed
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by iamblessed » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm

Thanks everybody. I don't like credit cards but for safety I will use one. One to make it simple each month. I have a 2% card but the safety is worth more than the 2% to me. I still like Dave Ramsey's thinking also of using your own money instead of the banks. If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
Last edited by iamblessed on Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Charon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:04 pm

I lived without credits cards for a while in undergrad, under the mistaken impression that I could use a debit card as an identical replacement, and was being more virtuous for not flirting with debt.

I'm very, very glad a friend convinced me to get a credit card. I had no credit score. I would have run into serious problems renting apartments, buying cars, and eventually getting a house.

Not to mention all the protections a credit card offers that debit cards don't. And rewards, but this is relatively minor.

The only people who should do without a credit card are people with pathologically poor shopping impulse control. Any Boglehead who's not in an emergency situation is paying off their credit cards in full every month, and is better off having the cards.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Charon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:09 pm

iamblessed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
I still like Dave Ramsey's thinking also of using your own money instead of the banks.
A good idea, but this has nothing to do with using credit cards or not. When I make a purchase, I immediately deduct that amount from my budget log. It doesn't matter that the money won't actually get withdrawn from my checking account for a few more weeks, when I pay my credit card bill. Any calculation of worth is "assets - liabilities", so it would be weird to think of credit card purchases as "the bank's money" (i.e., ignore the liabilities column).
iamblessed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
Put it on autopay if you're worried.
Last edited by Charon on Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JoeRetire
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by JoeRetire » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:09 pm

iamblessed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
Thanks everybody. I don't like credit cards but for safety I will use one. One to make it simple each month. I still like Dave Ramsey's thinking also of using your own money instead of the banks. If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
I'm happy to use the bank's money whenever they will let me use it for free and give me some money back on top.
If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
The penalties are steep if you overdraw your debit card account, too.

Maybe I just have more self control than Dave.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by RJC » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:16 pm

What is the hardship of holding a single credit card?

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:20 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:00 pm
They actually used to drive to stores that let them pay their utility bills.
Heh, I still do this. Drive to the bank and get a money order, then drive it to the utility company's office and hand-deliver it. Gets me off my computer and out of the house.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by H-Town » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:27 pm

iamblessed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
Thanks everybody. I don't like credit cards but for safety I will use one. One to make it simple each month. I have a 2% card but the safety is worth more than the 2% to me. I still like Dave Ramsey's thinking also of using your own money instead of the banks. If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
It's not Ramsey's thinking. It's from all the people who are responsible financially. You'll find many here who live below our means and have no trouble whatsoever with using credit cards. I give benefit of the doubt to Ramsey's intention, but his advice generally insult our intelligence.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by DarkHelmetII » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:34 am
However the consumer protections in credit cards are far greater. The risks of someone draining your account having obtained your debit card details is very real. Even more real if you go abroad, perhaps.
I agree and think of it this way: fraudulent activity on a credit card increases your liability (e.g. obligation to pay a bill) whereas fraudulent activity on a debit card decreases your assets (e.g. reducing cash available in your bank account); strictly from a technical accounting standpoint these two outcomes have the same impact to your net worth but the exposure and recourse are fundamentally different. I would prefer to be in a position in which I have to argue that my liability is over-stated, as opposed to having to "reclaim" money that has already gone out the door.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by ResearchMed » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:38 pm

iamblessed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
Thanks everybody. I don't like credit cards but for safety I will use one. One to make it simple each month. I have a 2% card but the safety is worth more than the 2% to me. I still like Dave Ramsey's thinking also of using your own money instead of the banks. If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
[emphasis added]

Very easy, and keeping a charge card with all the protections/etc.:

Charge $XYZ.00 on AnyDay.
Later, still on AnyDay, log into account and pay it off.
You are "using the bank's money" for... how many hours?

Better yet: Make an ADVANCE payment of $XYZ.00 (+/-).
If you've rounded up, then you are never "using the bank's money".

Most of us would find it easier to just pay it once a month, but that's a personal choice. Both "ways" allow you the same protections.

Note: Until rather recently, IF one purchased something in a store using a check, technically, one was then "using the bank's money" until the check cleared. (Nowadays, that can be flash fast, depending upon the vendor and the type of processing used.)

Did you ever pay for something after or at the time of receiving it with a check?
Were you upset about using the bank's money then (when there was a lag with the check clearing and your walking out the door with the item)?

-->> How do you feel about paying your electric bill, etc.? Do you feel you need to prepay those? If not, aren't you actually "using the utility's money"?
Do you always pre-pay all such bills?

And what about your paycheck? Someone is actually "using *your* money" if you are paid at the end of each work-week/month/etc...

Why does charging and paying it off in full without being late/etc., seem to be such a special and isolated problem?

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by jabroni » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:46 pm

We went 3-4 years without using credit cards and had no problems with anything. When we got our first mortgage, my wife had no credit score, so we had to go through manual underwriting. It required sending in additional paperwork to prove that we were trustworthy, but our rate was fine.

We started using them again because the signup bonuses gave us an opportunity to travel for free (or much less).

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Northern Flicker » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm

If your Visa Debit card is lost or stolen and fraudulent activity occurs, you are protected by Visa's Zero Liability Policy. That means 100 percent protection for you. Whether purchases occur online or off, you pay nothing for fraudulent activity.
Well, consumer protection laws already limit your liability to $50/occurrence so Visa or the bank is just giving you the last $50, which is great. However, if they do not also publish a required timeline for when you get the funds back, the value of the protection is much lower than similar protection of a credit card.

And getting good rewards for a credit card does not have to involve juggling lots of cards all the time. We just have selected a couple of cards with good rewards programs, and we don’t even consider the rewards structure when using the cards. We are quite content to realize satisfactory rewards with zero hassle.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by h82goslw » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:04 am
fortfun wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:23 pm
We'd give up a free 5k worth of bonuses per year if we gave up CCs. So, I'll keep using them for that reason alone. Not to mention all the protections that are built in.
Doesn’t churning credit cards to get the bonuses wreck your credit? Obviously not or you wouldn’t be doing it. But it seems your credit score should go down with all the credit you now have available, to say nothing of the perception it gives of credit unworthiness to be making so many applications.
Not at all....spouse and I go through 2-3 credit cards per year expressly for the bonuses and it has never negatively affected our score.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by mariezzz » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:46 pm

iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I am thinking of having no credit cards.
Why? There's very little risk, and lots of convenience. I pay for almost everything with a credit card, and pay the balance in full each month, plus get cash back on purchases.
You don't have to wait until your statement comes due to pay off the balance. You can pay it off at any time.
You can also have it paid automatically from a bank account, although I personally don't recommend that. There's value in reviewing your statement, which I do at least monthly.

Debit cards don't have the federal protections against fraud that personal credit cards have. I won't use debit cards because of the risk.

I really don't understand the argument people make for using debit cards but not credit cards. You can overspend with a debit card, too, and then you're paying fees to the bank.
If you need to, every time you spend money on a credit card, enter that amount in a ledger, just as you do with a checking account. Know how much you are allowing yourself to spend each month, and stop before reaching that amount. It's that simple.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Turbo29 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:09 pm

iamblessed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:03 pm
If a person was late the penalty could be steep.
I get paid every two weeks. Every two weeks I log on to my credit card accounts and pay whatever balance is on the card. No huge balances and no late problems.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by JackoC » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:28 am

ohai wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:56 pm
Dave Ramsay is not a good example for 99% of people who read this website. Dave Ramsay's target audience are utter morons when it comes to financial issues. To these people, any kind of debt is a weapon of mass destruction that has the potential to destroy their lives and those of anyone around them. That is why Dave Ramsay gives advice that is not financially logical sometimes; for instance, to pay down debt and forgo 401k matching. Some people simply cannot be trusted with any kind of liability.

Just because Dave Ramsay says he uses no credit card, doesn't mean he actually does this. Whether true or not, he is likely just saying or doing this to be an example to his clients.
I think that pretty much answers the Dave Ramsey point, even if the characterization of his audience might be a little harsh. 'Don't have CC's' is good advice for people who can't control their spending when using CC's (though not necessarily the solution to their problems, they can still blow themselves up financially without CC's). It's bad advice for everybody else. In particular the greater risk of loss or at least serious hassle from having a debit card compromised by thieves compared to CC's where it's the CC issuer's money at risk, even besides the loss of cash back and sign up bonus opportunities, purchase protection etc.

I also heavily question any approach based on personally modeling oneself after the *image* projected by a self interested public figure, who you don't actually know from Adam. It's not so much that I suspect Ramsey secretly uses CC's, he might indeed not. But if he doesn't he has a big reason probably none of us have: appearing to walk the walk of what he teaches other people for truckloads of money.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by michaeljc70 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am

dknightd wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:44 am
iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I am thinking of having no credit cards.
Never tried it. credit is so handy. Not sure why you'd want to give it all up.
Exactly. The only reason I could see is if you cannot control spending with a credit card and always wind up in debt. But even then I'd try to figure out the underlying issue.

Credit cards offer many benefits (rewards, free float, extended warranties, rental car insurance, price protection, etc.) and credit scores can impact getting/price of a mortgage, loan, insurance, etc.

MichCPA
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by MichCPA » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:58 am

Getting a hotel or car rental on a debit card is a pain because the establishment often places an extra hold for potential damage. Having an extra couple hundred $ in interest free cash to cover these issues isn't ideal. The hold amounts aren't often disclosed so they can bite you from behind.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:00 am

80% of people shouldn't go near a credit card. 10% probably should stay away for the most part but it won't hinder them too much (couple hundred in interest here and there over the years). The last 10% use them responsibly and take vacations on the dime of the first 80% (or cashback). There's a reason Capital One had A list celebs promoting their credit cards. Ramsey works for the greater majority of folks but he can't say "if you can be responsible use them" because half the 80% would think they are responsible and they are beyond incorrigible. Recall, 88% of the American population thinks they are above average drivers which mathematically is impossible.

Some of the methods Ramsey's company employs to convince people to not use credit cards is flat out dishonest. Example, the Southwest card that offered the companion pass with $3k in expenses charged within 90 days was converted to "You must take 15 flights at an average of $200 per flight for the card to break even" so it's basically buy 15 and then get free flights where you have taxes and fees on top of that ($5.60 per flight domestically, lol). I was chuckling over that, as if people don't have $3k of expenses in their daily lives on normal spend separate from flights. The Southwest companion pass is one of the most coveted benefits in the credit card game and Ramsey's group could have easily picked on a number of other cards that don't offer much like your typical credit card issued by a credit union. But then again, Ramsey's crew can't say "don't use a credit card because you're an idiot and have no discipline" although sometimes he's not too far from that so maybe so.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Starfish » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:11 pm

I am not sure why are checks and debit cards and cash magic and a credit is evil. What is the difference?
Bot CC and DCs are pieces of plastic linked to an abstract account, checks and cash are pieces of paper. None of them has "value". 1$ bill looks very similar with 100$ bill, what makes you spend one instead of the other? You can empty your account or finish all the cash the same as you can overspend on your CC. You can have a bunch of bill and coins in your pocket and be poor.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by 3-20Characters » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:05 pm

I assume that anyone who follows Ramsey is in debt. I simply can’t understand anyone sophisticated enough to manage hundreds of thousands—much less millions is assets—but they spend like drunken sailors if they get a CC in their wallet. How does one save for retirement while spending in an irresponsible manner? They can’t. They must have either inherited the money or make many times what they can reasonably spend, so leakages aren’t really obvious. If that’s the case, maybe it’s good for the economy if they continue to spend that way. Give them more CCs, I say.

Whatever the reasons, taking away CCs cc can’t be the answer because there are lots of people out there happy to use other methods to separate one from one’s money (time shares, variable annuities, boat and car shows, etc). If you don’t have impulse control, the money is going somewhere.

To sum up: Just because I carry plastic doesn’t mean that I have extra money. Not a hard thing to figure out.

Freetime76
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Freetime76 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm

ohai wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:56 pm
Dave Ramsay is not a good example for 99% of people who read this website. Dave Ramsay's target audience are utter morons when it comes to financial issues. To these people, any kind of debt is a weapon of mass destruction that has the potential to destroy their lives and those of anyone around them. That is why Dave Ramsay gives advice that is not financially logical sometimes; for instance, to pay down debt and forgo 401k matching. Some people simply cannot be trusted with any kind of liability.

Just because Dave Ramsay says he uses no credit card, doesn't mean he actually does this. Whether true or not, he is likely just saying or doing this to be an example to his clients.
Hi. We follow D.R. and no debt, never any debt except a very small trade school loan from before DH and I met. I am not an utter (financial) moron and neither is my husband. Not to waste BH time arguing over D.R. - we followed that plan once upon a time as it was huge.
SO: We use only MasterCard check cards/debit cards. We do keep some cash in the house, maybe 2500 plus or minus. I guess, we are just super-conservatives who plan a lot, including for possible issues. :?: I’m trying to think: what would we need to buy incredibly urgently if both of our cards were compromised? We have extra at home for most anything, plus the local banks... Maybe emergency prescriptions if someone had an accident, in which case we have a flex spending account or the cash or bill insurance or get samples from the doc? ? - not worrying about it (obviously not happened to us ever).

We haven’t had credit cards in our household for over 10 years. We’re late 30s/early 40s. I travel occasionally, including by air with car rentals, and as someone mentioned, at the last minute for a funeral. My auto and homeowners insurance rates never changed for the worse. I don’t even know if we have credit scores anymore. If there is an inconvenience, we’ll gladly deal with it.

I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by peetsperk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:09 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:45 pm
iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:38 pm
I like Dave Ramsey and his thinking. He carries two debit cards around no credit cards. He does everything with them.
He is also worth $50+ million.
Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying someone needs to be worth $50 million before they can survive without a credit card?

Freetime76
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Freetime76 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:09 pm

P.S. I should say I’ve had corporate cards before, which I appreciated because I never had to pay the charged work-related travel expenses. In that case, it was a convenience. Personal stuff didn’t ever go on the card, though.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by RickBoglehead » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:22 pm

peetsperk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:09 pm
RickBoglehead wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:45 pm
iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:38 pm
I like Dave Ramsey and his thinking. He carries two debit cards around no credit cards. He does everything with them.
He is also worth $50+ million.
Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying someone needs to be worth $50 million before they can survive without a credit card?
No. I'm saying that if his debit card had a $10,000 loss, he wouldn't give a rat's behind.

And that with $50 million plus, he probably doesn't run all the errands himself, staffs it out.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by JackoC » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:36 pm

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:00 am
80% of people shouldn't go near a credit card. 10% probably should stay away for the most part but it won't hinder them too much (couple hundred in interest here and there over the years). The last 10% use them responsibly and take vacations on the dime of the first 80% (or cashback). There's a reason Capital One had A list celebs promoting their credit cards. Ramsey works for the greater majority of folks but he can't say "if you can be responsible use them" because half the 80% would think they are responsible and they are beyond incorrigible. Recall, 88% of the American population thinks they are above average drivers which mathematically is impossible.
I agree this is the root of a lot of popular appeals, that you can't say to people what you're really saying to them. In this case 'you're irresponsible'. However unlike a pure subjective rating of one's driving, there's an objective measure of whether you're able to take advantage of CC's: do you ever pay a higher rate of interest on CC debt than you'd get from a bank account*? If the answer is no (is for us, for 30+ yrs) I don't see any reason to avoid CC's, and plenty of reasons to have them (like 2.625%+ off on everything that accepts them and doesn't offer a discount for cash, plus float, better protection against theft than DC, purchase protection, all the stuff mentioned again and again). Now, a small % of US households might fall in that category. And, some people who sometimes pay CC interest might still be better off with them than without them. But there's an objective boundary condition, a track record of never paying CC interest, where not having CC makes no strictly rational sense that I can see. Though of course people can not have them if they don't want them.

And also again obviously, plenty of people get into debt trouble other than CC balances. Also one might speculate that payoff-in-full-every-month CC use still leads you to spend more money than cash or DC would, but that's fuzzy IMO on several counts (how much do you need to reduce spending? what utility do you get from the things you buy? they give you goods and services when you spend money, not nothing, etc.)

*stated that way to allow for periodic special offers like 0% for x months etc. on a new card, run a balance for the 6 months, pay it back immediately at 6 months, we've done that a couple of times over the years.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am

Freetime76 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm
I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )
This is part of the DR credit card schtick that is non nonsensical. No one ever set out to get wealthy using credit cards but I don't walk away from free money either (deeper credit card games always yield more than most make in their day jobs on an hourly basis but that's another conversation). DR crowd would be better advised to simply stick to the "You are probably going to run up debt" and leave it there because statistically, that's true in this country. No need to throw in something that makes no sense.

MichCPA
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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by MichCPA » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:55 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am
Freetime76 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm
I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )
This is part of the DR credit card schtick that is non nonsensical. No one ever set out to get wealthy using credit cards but I don't walk away from free money either (deeper credit card games always yield more than most make in their day jobs on an hourly basis but that's another conversation). DR crowd would be better advised to simply stick to the "You are probably going to run up debt" and leave it there because statistically, that's true in this country. No need to throw in something that makes no sense.
Since June of last year I have redeemed $1,000 of flights, $1,150 of cash back, $150 price match rebates, $120 of airline credits, and $180 of food credits for $250 in annual fees and I have paid $4.73 life time for interest because I set autopay to minimum payment accidentally.

Does a $2,350 benefit make me rich? No.But it is a weeks worth or earnings, its tax free, and it doesn't require a ton of effort.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Jags4186 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:57 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:00 am
Recall, 88% of the American population thinks they are above average drivers which mathematically is impossible.
Sure let’s make up a statistic and then say it’s impossible when it’s not in order to prove a point. Good ol’ DR.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by 3-20Characters » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:26 am

MichCPA wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:55 am
deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am
Freetime76 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm
I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )
This is part of the DR credit card schtick that is non nonsensical. No one ever set out to get wealthy using credit cards but I don't walk away from free money either (deeper credit card games always yield more than most make in their day jobs on an hourly basis but that's another conversation). DR crowd would be better advised to simply stick to the "You are probably going to run up debt" and leave it there because statistically, that's true in this country. No need to throw in something that makes no sense.
Since June of last year I have redeemed $1,000 of flights, $1,150 of cash back, $150 price match rebates, $120 of airline credits, and $180 of food credits for $250 in annual fees and I have paid $4.73 life time for interest because I set autopay to minimum payment accidentally.

Does a $2,350 benefit make me rich? No.But it is a weeks worth or earnings, its tax free, and it doesn't require a ton of effort.
👍🏻
As a boglehead, it’s a requirement (should be, anyway) that I don’t leave money on the table. How much I chase it depends on cost/benefit to me. I can’t see having any amount of money where I’m not incentivized to gobble up $2k+ per year for doing nothing more than swiping plastic or tapping my phone. Add to that the protections of CCs and a no interest 30 day loan for all my monthly expenses and the only argument left for no CC is “I can’t be trusted with a CC so I don’t use one.” Haven’t had an interest payment or fee in 35 years so I guess I’ll stick with CC as my primary way to purchase anything from a vending machine coke to electronic appliances. I haven’t tried it for an auto but I’m encouraged to do so next time by some of the posts I’ve read here.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Luke Duke » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:32 am

iamblessed wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:38 pm
I like Dave Ramsey and his thinking. He claims that he only carries two debit cards around no credit cards. He does everything with them.
I would love to see his credit report to see if he is telling the truth.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:33 am

Freetime76 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm
ohai wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:56 pm
Dave Ramsay is not a good example for 99% of people who read this website. Dave Ramsay's target audience are utter morons when it comes to financial issues. To these people, any kind of debt is a weapon of mass destruction that has the potential to destroy their lives and those of anyone around them. That is why Dave Ramsay gives advice that is not financially logical sometimes; for instance, to pay down debt and forgo 401k matching. Some people simply cannot be trusted with any kind of liability.

Just because Dave Ramsay says he uses no credit card, doesn't mean he actually does this. Whether true or not, he is likely just saying or doing this to be an example to his clients.
Hi. We follow D.R. and no debt, never any debt except a very small trade school loan from before DH and I met. I am not an utter (financial) moron and neither is my husband. Not to waste BH time arguing over D.R. - we followed that plan once upon a time as it was huge.
SO: We use only MasterCard check cards/debit cards. We do keep some cash in the house, maybe 2500 plus or minus. I guess, we are just super-conservatives who plan a lot, including for possible issues. :?: I’m trying to think: what would we need to buy incredibly urgently if both of our cards were compromised? We have extra at home for most anything, plus the local banks... Maybe emergency prescriptions if someone had an accident, in which case we have a flex spending account or the cash or bill insurance or get samples from the doc? ? - not worrying about it (obviously not happened to us ever).

We haven’t had credit cards in our household for over 10 years. We’re late 30s/early 40s. I travel occasionally, including by air with car rentals, and as someone mentioned, at the last minute for a funeral. My auto and homeowners insurance rates never changed for the worse. I don’t even know if we have credit scores anymore. If there is an inconvenience, we’ll gladly deal with it.

I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )
Everyone has to do what works for them, but this sounds like sticking your head in the sand not wanting to see purchases two times (whether necessary or frivolous purchases).

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by JackoC » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:58 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am
Freetime76 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm
I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )
This is part of the DR credit card schtick that is non nonsensical. No one ever set out to get wealthy using credit cards but I don't walk away from free money either (deeper credit card games always yield more than most make in their day jobs on an hourly basis but that's another conversation). DR crowd would be better advised to simply stick to the "You are probably going to run up debt" and leave it there because statistically, that's true in this country. No need to throw in something that makes no sense.
I think it just gets back to the dynamics of popular appeals. If, from DR type POV, you just keep hammering on the real point, 'you people, my audience, cannot control yourselves using CC's', those people are more likely to react, at some point, as some level, 'hey wait a minute...' They will feel impugned. Arguments like 'you can't get rich on credit card rewards' though they don't stand up to any rational scrutiny (you can't get rich just by shopping around a little for better prices on everyday necessities either, so that means you shouldn't?) add a little sweetener. Same with the even lower voltage argument you sometimes hear against CC's, I've seen even on this forum, that the cash back on a credit card is just coming from *you* in higher prices to pay the credit card merchant fees. But it's also of course a completely bogus argument because you should only use CC's for stuff where sellers won't give you a discount for paying cash (greater than the cash back), most things IOW. In which case you pay the CC merchant fees embedded in the price no matter how you pay.

The rational reason not to have credit cards is that you can't control your spending the way you need to or should if you do have them. And that applies to a lot of people. But no other argument against them holds holds any water.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by classicindexer » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:15 am

Credit cards are a tool as are cash and debit cards. If you stick to a zero based budget (as Dave Ramsey and other's recommend), your budget tells you what you can spend on what. So you have to look at your budget categories first to see what's available instead of looking at your bank/credit card balances. Then cash/debit card/credit card is a tool that I pick to pay for the expense.

As long as I am spending based off of a budget, it doesn't matter if I use a credit card. This does take discipline to maintain the budget to prevent credit card debt.

When DW and I were primarily using credit cards, we probably received about $700 a year in cashback and also 30,000 or so Delta SkyMiles for free flights.

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Re: Does anyone here have no credit cards? How is that working out for you? Do you have any trouble without them?

Post by Ivygirl » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:27 pm

MichCPA wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:55 am
deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am
Freetime76 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm
I did not like the nauseating feeling of seeing everything we spent twice - once at time of purchase and once at time of credit card bill. It didn’t work for me, personally, even though I had a card with rewards for many years. I’m happier without it. Husband likes the simplicity of it, and we’re not going to get wealthy playing the rewards game (I have other hobbies :happy )
This is part of the DR credit card schtick that is non nonsensical. No one ever set out to get wealthy using credit cards but I don't walk away from free money either (deeper credit card games always yield more than most make in their day jobs on an hourly basis but that's another conversation). DR crowd would be better advised to simply stick to the "You are probably going to run up debt" and leave it there because statistically, that's true in this country. No need to throw in something that makes no sense.
Since June of last year I have redeemed $1,000 of flights, $1,150 of cash back, $150 price match rebates, $120 of airline credits, and $180 of food credits for $250 in annual fees and I have paid $4.73 life time for interest because I set autopay to minimum payment accidentally.

Does a $2,350 benefit make me rich? No.But it is a weeks worth or earnings, its tax free, and it doesn't require a ton of effort.
Can I point out that you have been dining and vacationing and shopping at someone else's expense? At whose expense are you doing these things?

There is a prevalent sentiment among the poor that the wealthy never really pay for all the things they get in this life. That they got wealthy by making other people pay. Is this sentiment sometimes the truth? Evidently it is.

Someone - a lot of someones - are heating up their millionth cup of ramen and wishing for a vacation to even one of the places you visited, a vacation that realistically is never going to happen. These someones are paying 20% interest on things they needed.

Broaden your ideas, please, everyone who thinks there is such a thing as free money. Somebody is paying, just not you.

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