i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

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Topic Author
Hulk
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:08 pm

i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:53 pm

Hello wise bogleheads,

Anyone out there with experience with an i401k on a side hustle? I have a 1099 side venture that is doing well, hopefully will grow more in the future. I am on the verge of opening a i401k at mysolo401k.net that has all the mechanics necessary for a mega backdoor Roth IRA. https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/the-m ... -roth-ira/
I want to max out all I make and put it in my i401k (either as a traditional or aftertax contribution) but this will start to exceed 56K when also considering 403b contributions at my W2 job.

Here are the specifics
W2 403(b) employee deferral 19k
W2 401(a) employer contribution 22,400 (8% of 280,000 limit)

I am going to make maybe 25k this year in my 1099 side hustle and thought I would open the i401k. First, could I contribute all on an after tax bases? This would be 66,400 total. These are unrelated employers in every possible way.

Also, if I spit the side hustle contribution into as much traditional as possible with the remainder going in as after tax, would it look like this?

25,000 x (1 - 0.0145) = 24,637.5
24,637.5 x 20% = 4,927.5 contributed as traditional
25,000 - 4,927.5 = 20,072.5 contributed as after tax

Is this max correct?

Thanks so much!

Hulk

ExitStageLeft
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by ExitStageLeft » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:07 pm

You are limited to $19k in elective deferrals across all your retirement plans, so if you are maxing $19k in employee contributions in the 403(b) plan then you cannot contribute as an employee in the i401(k).

You are limited to how much you can contribute in your 401(k) as an employer. That is generally 25% of compensation, but if self-employed there is a different calculation needed: https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/se ... -deduction

My read on that table is that 20% is the max you can contribute as an employer, so that jives with your calculation. I have no knowledge on the after-tax contribution... :shock:

Topic Author
Hulk
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:15 pm

Yes, one cannot contribute more than 19k as an employEE. That math was suppose to represent an employER contribution. And yes, if you are a corporation, an employER contribution is limited to 25%. If you are not incorporated, it is limited to 20%. But either way, those percentages are AFTER you have paid social security and medicare tax. Since I have already maxed out my SS tax at my w2 job (salary is beyond 132,900) I am only left with medicare tax of 2.9%. I believe I only subtract half of medicare tax, so 1.45% but I am not sure. That is where my math came from the original post. Is that correct? Any CPA out there?
Last edited by Hulk on Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

ExitStageLeft
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by ExitStageLeft » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:21 pm

In follow-up reading I'm fairly certain that all retirement contributions cannot exceed $56k, unless you are 50 or older.

Your contributions for 2019 can be:

$19k 403b elective
$22.4k 403b employer
$4.9k i401k employer
$9.7k i401k employee after tax

Or you could instead contribute:

$19k 403b elective
$22.4k 403b employer
$14.6k i401k employee after tax

The second option would allow for greater in-service rollovers to Roth IRA. Note that I have no experience with i401k nor mega backdoor Roth so caveat emptor.

MoneyMarathon
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by MoneyMarathon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:39 pm

ExitStageLeft wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:07 pm
You are limited to how much you can contribute in your 401(k) as an employer. That is generally 25% of compensation, but if self-employed there is a different calculation needed: https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/se ... -deduction
BTW: this is why people with a good 401(k), which they can max out & also use after tax-contributions, may consider not using a i401(k) at all. Instead they might like to use a SEP IRA, which allows you to make the same level of employer contribution. SEP IRA plans often have lower fees and simpler paperwork (the one I have at Vanguard is free and just needed me to push a few buttons to set up).

This is what I do, and I roll over the SEP IRA into a Roth IRA every year (mostly because I am too lazy, even though I could roll it over into the pre-tax 401k with a little more work). This lets me do (a) traditional 401(k), (b) the employer match, (c) the after-tax 401(k) into mega backdoor Roth, (d) the SEP IRA into Roth IRA rollover (could instead absorb it into the pre-tax 401k), and (e) the ordinary backdoor Roth IRA. Some people might also add in (f) HSA.

Spirit Rider
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:44 am

ExitStageLeft wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:21 pm
In follow-up reading I'm fairly certain that all retirement contributions cannot exceed $56k, unless you are 50 or older.
This is not necessarily true. The defined contribution annual addition limit (2019 = $56K) is separate for each "unaffiliated" employer. If the OP had a 401k and was not in a controlled or affiliated service group, then they would have a separate annual addition limit for their owner-only retirement plan(s).

However, you are correct in the OP's special case with a 403b. From Publication 571, Tax-Sheltered Annuity Plans (403(b) Plans), 3. Limit on Annual Additions:

"Participation in a qualified plan. If you participated in a 403(b) plan and a qualified plan, you must combine contributions made to your 403(b) account with contributions to a qualified plan and simplified employee pensions of all corporations, partnerships, and sole proprietorships in which you have more than 50% control to determine the total annual additions."
Your contributions for 2019 can be:

$19k 403b elective
$22.4k 403b employer
$4.9k i401k employer
$9.7k i401k employee after tax
You need to keep in mind that there are two annual addition limits:
  • Statutory limit (2019 = $56K)
  • 100% of compensation
Employer contributions reduce compensation and are subtracted from the lesser of the annual addition limits from above.

The maximum one-participant 401k employee after-tax contribution is the lesser of:
  • The annual addition limit ($56K) - (403b employee + employer contributions) - one-participant 401k (employee elective + employer contributions).
  • The self-employed earned income (business profit - 1/2 SE tax) - one-participant 401k (employee elective + employer contributions * 2).
Is this case the statutory limit is barely the limiting factor, but you need to be aware of this if the numbers change.
Or you could instead contribute:

$19k 403b elective
$22.4k 403b employer
$14.6k i401k employee after tax

The second option would allow for greater in-service rollovers to Roth IRA. Note that I have no experience with i401k nor mega backdoor Roth so caveat emptor.

Spirit Rider
Posts: 11214
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:52 am

MoneyMarathon wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:39 pm
BTW: this is why people with a good 401(k), which they can max out & also use after tax-contributions, may consider not using a i401(k) at all. Instead they might like to use a SEP IRA, which allows you to make the same level of employer contribution. SEP IRA plans often have lower fees and simpler paperwork (the one I have at Vanguard is free and just needed me to push a few buttons to set up).
Vanguard's Individual 401k does charge a $20/fund/year fee that is waived with Voyager status, but all of the other low cost one-participant 401k plan providers (Etrade, Fidelity, Schwab and TD Ameritrade) have no fees.

Yes, you have to fill out a trivial adoption agreement, but that should not deter anyone from adopting a one-participant 401k plan over a SEP IRA. A SEP IRA will interfere with the Backdoor Roth. If you really want to convert your employer contributions to Roth, you can adopt a one-participant 401k plan from Etrade. They support In-Plan Roth Rollovers and you can accomplish the same effect.

OCDinvestor
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Joined: Thu May 09, 2019 2:16 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by OCDinvestor » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:03 am

"This is not necessarily true. The defined contribution annual addition limit (2019 = $56K) is separate for each "unaffiliated" employer. If the OP had a 401k and was not in a controlled or affiliated service group, then they would have a separate annual addition limit for their owner-only retirement plan(s)."

Are you sure about this? I'm in a similar position--- max out employeEE $19K 403(b) at my W2 (which also exceeds SS maximum), but also have a small side-gig. I'm fairly certain on the side gig, you can only fill in the remaining employER side and this can only be done pre-tax. Annual employEE + employER contributions from both W2 and 1099 must not exceed IRS published annual maximum.

Spirit Rider
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:51 am

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying and I am not sure you understand what I said. We may be in agreement. Let me state it concisely.

Primary employer 401k plan. One-participant 401k plan. The two plans have separate annual addition limits. You can max them both out.

Primary employer 403b plan. One-participant 401k plan. The two plans have one combined annual addition limit. The one-participant 401k plan's maximum annual additions are limited to the annual addition limit - the 403b annual additions.

Topic Author
Hulk
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:23 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:44 am
ExitStageLeft wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:21 pm
In follow-up reading I'm fairly certain that all retirement contributions cannot exceed $56k, unless you are 50 or older.
This is not necessarily true. The defined contribution annual addition limit (2019 = $56K) is separate for each "unaffiliated" employer. If the OP had a 401k and was not in a controlled or affiliated service group, then they would have a separate annual addition limit for their owner-only retirement plan(s).

However, you are correct in the OP's special case with a 403b. From Publication 571, Tax-Sheltered Annuity Plans (403(b) Plans), 3. Limit on Annual Additions:

"Participation in a qualified plan. If you participated in a 403(b) plan and a qualified plan, you must combine contributions made to your 403(b) account with contributions to a qualified plan and simplified employee pensions of all corporations, partnerships, and sole proprietorships in which you have more than 50% control to determine the total annual additions."
Your contributions for 2019 can be:

$19k 403b elective
$22.4k 403b employer
$4.9k i401k employer
$9.7k i401k employee after tax
You need to keep in mind that there are two annual addition limits:
  • Statutory limit (2019 = $56K)
  • 100% of compensation
Employer contributions reduce compensation and are subtracted from the lesser of the annual addition limits from above.

The maximum one-participant 401k employee after-tax contribution is the lesser of:
  • The annual addition limit ($56K) - (403b employee + employer contributions) - one-participant 401k (employee elective + employer contributions).
  • The self-employed earned income (business profit - 1/2 SE tax) - one-participant 401k (employee elective + employer contributions * 2).
Is this case the statutory limit is barely the limiting factor, but you need to be aware of this if the numbers change.
Or you could instead contribute:

$19k 403b elective
$22.4k 403b employer
$14.6k i401k employee after tax

The second option would allow for greater in-service rollovers to Roth IRA. Note that I have no experience with i401k nor mega backdoor Roth so caveat emptor.
Hey Sprit Rider, Thanks so much for commenting! I don't quite think I understand yet. I would very much appreciate you helping me with this. Here are the fact for my case and what I understand so far

Hospital W2 403(b) - 19k employee deferral
Hospital W2 401(a) - 22,400 employer contribution (8% of 280,000)

I have thus far generated 5,200 in 1099 income this year in an unrelated business. I am fairly confident I can get this up to 50-100k in 2020. I need to role some old 401(k) money anyway so I need to set up an i401(k) for that anyway and found a i401(k) at mysolo401k.net that has the mechanics needed for a mega back door Roth IRA in there plan document. From what I understand, it would look like this, if say, I make 100k

100,000 x (1 - 0.0145) = 98,550 (take out half of medicare tax, already maxed out on SS tax)
98,550 x 20% = 19,710
I could make 19,710 tax deferred employER contribution
Then the remainder, 56,000 - 19,710 = 36,290 I would make as an after-tax contribution.

This IRS publication is an example of the sum of all 401(k)s exceeding 56K

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/pl ... ion-limits

Here is a quote from the above IRS reference

Example 1: Greg, 46, is employed by an employer with a 401(k) plan, and he also works as an independent contractor for an unrelated business. Greg sets up a solo 401(k) plan for his independent contracting business. Greg contributes the maximum amount to his employer’s 401(k) plan for 2018, $18,500. Greg would also like to contribute the maximum amount to his solo 401(k) plan. He is not able to make further elective deferrals to his solo 401(k) plan because he has already contributed his personal maximum, $18,500. He has enough earned income from his business to contribute the overall maximum for the year, $55,000. Greg can make a nonelective contribution of $55,000 to his solo 401(k) plan. This $55,000 limit is not reduced by the elective deferrals Greg made under his employer’s plan because the limit on annual additions applies to each plan separately.

Notice how he was able to max his solo 401(k) at 55K even though he contributed 18k to his other 401(k). This is what I want to do. However, I don't have a w2 401(k) and a 1099 401(k). I have a w2 403(b) and 401(a) and a 1099 i401(k) and publication 571 is throwing me off since Tax sheltered annuity plans (403(b)) play by different rules. To re-quote you from pub 571, section 3 and link

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p571.pdf

"Participation in a qualified plan. If you participated in a 403(b) plan and a qualified plan, you must combine contributions made to your 403(b) account with contributions to a qualified plan and simplified employee pensions of all corporations, partnerships, and sole proprietorships in which you have more than 50% control to determine the total annual additions."

Worksheet 1 is confusing me. Do I have to limit my 403(b) or my i401(k) contributions and what is my ceiling for both?

Could you please help me with the math if...

Hospital W2 403(b) - 19k employee deferral
Hospital W2 401(a) - 22,400 employer contribution (8% of 280,000)
1099 income of 100k with i401(K) set up that allows after tax contributions.

Is it not 19,710 tax deferred and 36,290 after-tax? Or simply 56,000 aftertax if I preferred Roth or traditional (would obviously Roth convert the after-tax contribution to achieve this)

Topic Author
Hulk
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:30 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:51 am
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying and I am not sure you understand what I said. We may be in agreement. Let me state it concisely.

Primary employer 401k plan. One-participant 401k plan. The two plans have separate annual addition limits. You can max them both out.

Primary employer 403b plan. One-participant 401k plan. The two plans have one combined annual addition limit. The one-participant 401k plan's maximum annual additions are limited to the annual addition limit - the 403b annual additions.
Oh shoot. So I think you just answered my overly long post. So with the following facts...
W2 403(b) 19k employee contribution
W2 401(a) 22,400 employer contribution
100k 1099 profit, the max possible contribution on i401k is 14,600, regardless where it is traditional or after-tax. Bummer.

And this would not be the case if my employer offered a 401(k) instead of a 403(b). My previous math was perhaps correct under those different circumstances.

Correct? Thanks Spirit Rider!

nolesrule
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:59 am

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by nolesrule » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:34 pm

The employER contribution is not 403b, so that may make a difference.

Spirit Rider
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:48 pm

Good catch by @norules. I missed that.

Only 403b employee + employer contributions reduce one-participant 401k annual additions. The 401a employer contribution does not.

ExitStageLeft
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by ExitStageLeft » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:34 pm

With that distinction clear then my understanding is that:

Given planned 2019 contributions of
- 403(b) 19k employee contribution
- 401(a) 22,400 employer contribution

for the remainder of 2019 the W2 employer can still contribute $15,600 to the 401(a) if plan allows, and

for the remainder of 2019 the 1099 employer (OP as self-employed) can contribute 20% of compensation to the solo 401(k) up to $37k.

Do I have that right?

Spirit Rider
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 pm

ExitStageLeft wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:34 pm
With that distinction clear then my understanding is that:

Given planned 2019 contributions of
- 403(b) 19k employee contribution
- 401(a) 22,400 employer contribution

for the remainder of 2019 the W2 employer can still contribute $15,600 to the 401(a) if plan allows, and
The fact that the 403b is controlled by the participant, requires it to be aggregated with qualified plans of businesses > 50% owned by the 403b participant. However, the the other qualified plans (401a or 401k) are NOT aggregated with the 403b. Therefore, the remaining annual addition limit is $56K - $22,400 = $33,600.
for the remainder of 2019 the 1099 employer (OP as self-employed) can contribute 20% of compensation to the solo 401(k) up to $37k. Do I have that right?
Correct.

Topic Author
Hulk
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:24 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 pm
ExitStageLeft wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:34 pm
With that distinction clear then my understanding is that:

Given planned 2019 contributions of
- 403(b) 19k employee contribution
- 401(a) 22,400 employer contribution

for the remainder of 2019 the W2 employer can still contribute $15,600 to the 401(a) if plan allows, and
The fact that the 403b is controlled by the participant, requires it to be aggregated with qualified plans of businesses > 50% owned by the 403b participant. However, the the other qualified plans (401a or 401k) are NOT aggregated with the 403b. Therefore, the remaining annual addition limit is $56K - $22,400 = $33,600.

for the remainder of 2019 the 1099 employer (OP as self-employed) can contribute 20% of compensation to the solo 401(k) up to $37k. Do I have that right?
Correct.
Could that also be 37k after-tax contribution, if solo 401k allowed, or 20% of profit tax deferred contribution? Or some combination of the two if desired, not to exceed 37k?

I dont understand what I highlighted in red

BTW, I have asked two successful CPAs about this and it is way over their heads.

ExitStageLeft
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by ExitStageLeft » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:49 pm

If you'll indulge a newbie who is fascinated by the complexities presented, I'll give you my take.
Hulk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:24 pm
...
Could that also be 37k after-tax contribution, if solo 401k allowed, or 20% of profit tax deferred contribution? Or some combination of the two if desired, not to exceed 37k?
Yes. The $56k aggregated limit is reduced by the $19k elective deferral in the 403(b). Any other contribution allowed by the plan is acceptible so it could be as an employee making after tax contributions or as an employer making discretionary contributions which must be tax-deferred.

I dont understand what I highlighted in red
Your employer's 401(a) plan has a separate $56k limit independent from the aggregated $56k of the 403(b) and the solo 401(k).

BTW, I have asked two successful CPAs about this and it is way over their heads.
Posts from Spirit Rider are always educational!

Spirit Rider
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:01 pm

Hulk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:24 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 pm
ExitStageLeft wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:34 pm
With that distinction clear then my understanding is that:

Given planned 2019 contributions of
- 403(b) 19k employee contribution
- 401(a) 22,400 employer contribution

for the remainder of 2019 the W2 employer can still contribute $15,600 to the 401(a) if plan allows, and
The fact that the 403b is controlled by the participant, requires it to be aggregated with qualified plans of businesses > 50% owned by the 403b participant. However, the the other qualified plans (401a or 401k) are NOT aggregated with the 403b. Therefore, the remaining annual addition limit is $56K - $22,400 = $33,600.
for the remainder of 2019 the 1099 employer (OP as self-employed) can contribute 20% of compensation to the solo 401(k) up to $37k. Do I have that right?
Correct.
Could that also be 37k after-tax contribution, if solo 401k allowed, or 20% of profit tax deferred contribution? Or some combination of the two if desired, not to exceed 37k?
Yes, but see my 1:44am post for how to calculate the maximum employee after-tax contribution it you make any employer contributions.
I dont understand what I highlighted in red
I thought it was clear. If not, does this help.

You must aggregate 403b contributions with one-participant 401k contributions for the annual addition limit.
You do NOT aggregate 403b contributions with the W-2 employers other qualified plans (401a or 401k).
BTW, I have asked two successful CPAs about this and it is way over their heads.
Yes, I have had a CPA argue with me even after showing him the explicit language in IRS publication 571.

MoneyMarathon
Posts: 556
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by MoneyMarathon » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:37 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:52 am
MoneyMarathon wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:39 pm
BTW: this is why people with a good 401(k), which they can max out & also use after tax-contributions, may consider not using a i401(k) at all. Instead they might like to use a SEP IRA, which allows you to make the same level of employer contribution. SEP IRA plans often have lower fees and simpler paperwork (the one I have at Vanguard is free and just needed me to push a few buttons to set up).
Vanguard's Individual 401k does charge a $20/fund/year fee that is waived with Voyager status, but all of the other low cost one-participant 401k plan providers (Etrade, Fidelity, Schwab and TD Ameritrade) have no fees.

Yes, you have to fill out a trivial adoption agreement, but that should not deter anyone from adopting a one-participant 401k plan over a SEP IRA. A SEP IRA will interfere with the Backdoor Roth. If you really want to convert your employer contributions to Roth, you can adopt a one-participant 401k plan from Etrade. They support In-Plan Roth Rollovers and you can accomplish the same effect.
Thanks for the info. So far rolling it over into the Vanguard Roth has been a satisfying path of least resistance. Maybe I will switch to using a pretax i401k in the future.

Topic Author
Hulk
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:32 am

OCDinvestor wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:03 am
"This is not necessarily true. The defined contribution annual addition limit (2019 = $56K) is separate for each "unaffiliated" employer. If the OP had a 401k and was not in a controlled or affiliated service group, then they would have a separate annual addition limit for their owner-only retirement plan(s)."

Are you sure about this? I'm in a similar position--- max out employeEE $19K 403(b) at my W2 (which also exceeds SS maximum), but also have a small side-gig. I'm fairly certain on the side gig, you can only fill in the remaining employER side and this can only be done pre-tax. Annual employEE + employER contributions from both W2 and 1099 must not exceed IRS published annual maximum.
Not true. It is possible for the sum of all 401(k)s to exceed 56K. Please see the IRS quotes and examples from IRS.gov.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/pl ... ion-limits

Here is a quote from the above IRS reference

Example 1: Greg, 46, is employed by an employer with a 401(k) plan, and he also works as an independent contractor for an unrelated business. Greg sets up a solo 401(k) plan for his independent contracting business. Greg contributes the maximum amount to his employer’s 401(k) plan for 2018, $18,500. Greg would also like to contribute the maximum amount to his solo 401(k) plan. He is not able to make further elective deferrals to his solo 401(k) plan because he has already contributed his personal maximum, $18,500. He has enough earned income from his business to contribute the overall maximum for the year, $55,000. Greg can make a nonelective contribution of $55,000 to his solo 401(k) plan. This $55,000 limit is not reduced by the elective deferrals Greg made under his employer’s plan because the limit on annual additions applies to each plan separately.

Notice how he was able to max his solo 401(k) at 55K even though he contributed 18k to his other 401(k). That is what I want to do, continue to contribute 19k to my W2 403(b), my W2 employer will continue to contribute 22,400 to my 401(a) and then on top of that I would like to contribute 56k to my i401(k). Definitely unrelated businesses.

terran
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by terran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Hulk wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:32 am
Notice how he was able to max his solo 401(k) at 55K even though he contributed 18k to his other 401(k). That is what I want to do, continue to contribute 19k to my W2 403(b), my W2 employer will continue to contribute 22,400 to my 401(a) and then on top of that I would like to contribute 56k to my i401(k). Definitely unrelated businesses.
Take another read through Spirit Rider's posts. You can't compare your situation to someone contributing to both a workplace 401(k) and a solo 401(k) since your situation involves a 403(b) which has similar, but different rules. I have always found Spirit Rider to be extremely well informed, especially when it comes to workplace retirement plan rules, so I would be very reluctant to do anything that contradicts his/her advice in this area unless I found evidence from a very reliable source (like directly from the IRS) providing contradictory guidance that I was certain I fully understood.

Topic Author
Hulk
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Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Hulk » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:13 pm

terran wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am
Hulk wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:32 am
Notice how he was able to max his solo 401(k) at 55K even though he contributed 18k to his other 401(k). That is what I want to do, continue to contribute 19k to my W2 403(b), my W2 employer will continue to contribute 22,400 to my 401(a) and then on top of that I would like to contribute 56k to my i401(k). Definitely unrelated businesses.
Take another read through Spirit Rider's posts. You can't compare your situation to someone contributing to both a workplace 401(k) and a solo 401(k) since your situation involves a 403(b) which has similar, but different rules. I have always found Spirit Rider to be extremely well informed, especially when it comes to workplace retirement plan rules, so I would be very reluctant to do anything that contradicts his/her advice in this area unless I found evidence from a very reliable source (like directly from the IRS) providing contradictory guidance that I was certain I fully understood.
Yes. For sure. 100%. I didn't mean to imply that. I wasn't addressing my - different - situation with this last post. Mine is definitely different having a 403(b) at my W2 job. I was simply challenging OCDinvestor's claim that the sum of all 401(k)s cannot exceed 56k. And yes, thank you to Spirit Rider and everyone who helped educate me on this!

terran
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by terran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:33 pm

Hulk wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:13 pm
terran wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am
Hulk wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:32 am
Notice how he was able to max his solo 401(k) at 55K even though he contributed 18k to his other 401(k). That is what I want to do, continue to contribute 19k to my W2 403(b), my W2 employer will continue to contribute 22,400 to my 401(a) and then on top of that I would like to contribute 56k to my i401(k). Definitely unrelated businesses.
Take another read through Spirit Rider's posts. You can't compare your situation to someone contributing to both a workplace 401(k) and a solo 401(k) since your situation involves a 403(b) which has similar, but different rules. I have always found Spirit Rider to be extremely well informed, especially when it comes to workplace retirement plan rules, so I would be very reluctant to do anything that contradicts his/her advice in this area unless I found evidence from a very reliable source (like directly from the IRS) providing contradictory guidance that I was certain I fully understood.
Yes. For sure. 100%. I didn't mean to imply that. I wasn't addressing my - different - situation with this last post. Mine is definitely different having a 403(b) at my W2 job. I was simply challenging OCDinvestor's claim that the sum of all 401(k)s cannot exceed 56k. And yes, thank you to Spirit Rider and everyone who helped educate me on this!
Gotcha. In that case, my understanding matches yours. That 401(k)s for unrelated employers have combined 415(c) limits (2019 = $19k), but separate overall limits (2019 = $56k).

Spirit Rider
Posts: 11214
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by Spirit Rider » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:20 pm

terran wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:33 pm
Gotcha. In that case, my understanding matches yours. That 401(k)s for unrelated employers have combined 415(c) limits (2019 = $19k), but separate overall limits (2019 = $56k).
Small clarification. There is a single 402g employee elective contribution limit (2019 - $19K across all 401k, 403b, SARSEP and SIMPLE IRA plans regardless of affiliation. The 415c employee + employer contribution annual addition limit (2019 = $56K) is separate for each unaffiliated employer plan.

As has been pointed out a 403b is considered controlled by the participant, thereby treated as an affiliated employer and 403b annual additions must be aggregated with the annual additions of a one-participant 401k. From IRS Publication 571, chapter 3, Limit on Annual, Additions, page 4:

"Participation in a qualified plan. If you participated in a 403(b) plan and a qualified plan, you must combine contributions made to your 403(b) account with contributions to a qualified plan and simplified employee pensions of all corporations, partnerships, and sole proprietorships in which you have more than 50% control to determine the total annual additions."

terran
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Re: i401k on side hustle and w2 403(b) will exceed 56k accumulative. Ok? Also, math help please

Post by terran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:40 pm

Whoops, got my sections mixed up. Thanks for correcting!

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