No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Topic Author
alphacollector
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by alphacollector » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:45 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:23 pm
alphacollector wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:26 pm

And it’s apparently pretty difficult to find another experienced person to hire as we’ve had a job opening for such a person for over a year. Apparently the one person that was interested/qualified wanted more money than the company was willling to pay.
alphacollector,

You are the source of this problem.

A) If you are willing to work extra hours at your current pay rate, why should your employer hire a new person at a higher rate?

B) This proves to us that you are not paid at the market rate. If not, there should be no problem paying the new guy since it would be at the same rate that they are paying for your extra hours.

KlangFool
Unfortunately, B is not quite correct. We work primarily for government agenicies who have people that do similar work. From what I gather, there is an unwritten understanding that our company and others companies in our industry can only pay a similar amount to what our “counterparts” in government make. Otherwise the government agencies would not be able to aquire/retain employees. In this regard I’m essentially limited to what I can make. There are some ways around this through being payed a bonus, but they are usually not real substantial.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? - Mark 8:36

sabhen
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:03 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by sabhen » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:48 pm

Just Don't Do It. The company does not value its people. Seek another job.

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:49 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:44 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:37 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:25 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:26 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:07 pm
I was a salaried employee. I did not feel I had a 40 hour job. I always tried to excel at job by working extra hours and I wanted to take on more responsibility. It paid off by getting better raises then clock watchers and by getting better promotions. OP I would look for a different job that allowed you to do your thing. But others are right in saying you have to self prioritize to keep your sanity.

We had click watchers but they got zero or low raises because they were not interested in growing professionally.
bengal22,

If you are working 53 to 55 hours per week now. And, your manager asks you to work even more hours, would you say yes? That is the topic at hand. It is not about working more than 40 hours per week. It is about working beyond 53 to 55 hours per week.

KlangFool
So I went back and read OP and some of the other comments later. OP said it was alluded that they may have to work more hours. What does that even mean? OP also said that he was getting paid for extra hours over 40. I just feel like to be successful you have to do what the job requires, you need to make a positive difference, and you shouldn't feel like you owe the company "x" number of hours. As a manager, I wouldn't want some of the posters in this thread.
bengal22,

OP is working 53 to 55 hours per week now. Work more hours mean OP has to work more than 53 to 55 hours per week. So, back to my question.

If your boss asks you to work more hours beyond 53 to 55 hours per week, would you say yes? If you say yes, what is your limit? 60 hours per week? 80 hours per week? 100 hours per week?

<<As a manager, I wouldn't want some of the posters in this thread. >>

As a manager, should you ask your employee to work 60 hours per week? 80 hours per week? 100 hours per week?

KlangFool
Boss didn't ask him to work more hours. It was alluded to him and unspecified others that he may get more responsibility. That doesn't always equate to more hours. Managers should grow their employees by giving them more responsibility. I am clueless where the 60 80 100 hours is coming from.
bengal22,

It is a simple question. Would you as a manager consider asking your employee to work 60 hours per week? How about 80 hours per week? Or, 100 hours per week?

<<Boss didn't ask him to work more hours. It was alluded to him and unspecified others that he may get more responsibility.>>

<<OP: Ultimately the increase in the amount of hours that’s going to be asked of me to work without additional compensation is the problem for me. >>

OP had clarified that it will be more hours. So, what would be your answer?

KlangFool

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:52 pm

alphacollector wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:45 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:23 pm
alphacollector wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:26 pm

And it’s apparently pretty difficult to find another experienced person to hire as we’ve had a job opening for such a person for over a year. Apparently the one person that was interested/qualified wanted more money than the company was willling to pay.
alphacollector,

You are the source of this problem.

A) If you are willing to work extra hours at your current pay rate, why should your employer hire a new person at a higher rate?

B) This proves to us that you are not paid at the market rate. If not, there should be no problem paying the new guy since it would be at the same rate that they are paying for your extra hours.

KlangFool
Unfortunately, B is not quite correct. We work primarily for government agenicies who have people that do similar work. From what I gather, there is an unwritten understanding that our company and others companies in our industry can only pay a similar amount to what our “counterparts” in government make. Otherwise the government agencies would not be able to aquire/retain employees. In this regard I’m essentially limited to what I can make. There are some ways around this through being payed a bonus, but they are usually not real substantial.
alphacollector,

<<There are some ways around this through being payed a bonus, but they are usually not real substantial.>>

That means they could pay you more if they have to. At this moment, there is no reason to pay you more.

KlangFool

User avatar
bengal22
Posts: 1746
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:20 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by bengal22 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:12 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:49 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:44 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:37 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:25 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:26 pm


bengal22,

If you are working 53 to 55 hours per week now. And, your manager asks you to work even more hours, would you say yes? That is the topic at hand. It is not about working more than 40 hours per week. It is about working beyond 53 to 55 hours per week.

KlangFool
So I went back and read OP and some of the other comments later. OP said it was alluded that they may have to work more hours. What does that even mean? OP also said that he was getting paid for extra hours over 40. I just feel like to be successful you have to do what the job requires, you need to make a positive difference, and you shouldn't feel like you owe the company "x" number of hours. As a manager, I wouldn't want some of the posters in this thread.
bengal22,

OP is working 53 to 55 hours per week now. Work more hours mean OP has to work more than 53 to 55 hours per week. So, back to my question.

If your boss asks you to work more hours beyond 53 to 55 hours per week, would you say yes? If you say yes, what is your limit? 60 hours per week? 80 hours per week? 100 hours per week?

<<As a manager, I wouldn't want some of the posters in this thread. >>

As a manager, should you ask your employee to work 60 hours per week? 80 hours per week? 100 hours per week?

KlangFool
Boss didn't ask him to work more hours. It was alluded to him and unspecified others that he may get more responsibility. That doesn't always equate to more hours. Managers should grow their employees by giving them more responsibility. I am clueless where the 60 80 100 hours is coming from.
bengal22,

It is a simple question. Would you as a manager consider asking your employee to work 60 hours per week? How about 80 hours per week? Or, 100 hours per week?

<<Boss didn't ask him to work more hours. It was alluded to him and unspecified others that he may get more responsibility.>>

<<OP: Ultimately the increase in the amount of hours that’s going to be asked of me to work without additional compensation is the problem for me. >>

OP had clarified that it will be more hours. So, what would be your answer?

KlangFool
Simple question as stated but we see the situation differently. If OP cannot meet the requirements of the job within hours acceptable to OP then he should seek other employment or tell manager to help him prioritize responsibilities. Right now OP is getting compensated for what he perceived as extra hours. He hasn't been asked to take on extra responsibilities. IMO he should welcome more responsibilities. It's not about putting a ceiling on how many hours one will work or one will ask one to work. Every manager wants more fruitful work from reports not more hours. Sole concept that is.
"Earn All You Can; Give All You Can; Save All You Can." .... John Wesley

crazygrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by crazygrow » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm

Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:52 pm

crazygrow wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.
crazygrow,

If you want others to provide their number, why don't you provide your first?

KlangFool

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:26 pm

crazygrow wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.
You forgot the third group who took on the extra work and didn't get the payoff that you received. It's not so black and white where you work your ass off early and there is a guaranteed payoff. I've experienced both sides where I took more responsibilities early on without pay. Sometimes it would pay off and other times it wouldn't. It's like when Jeff Bezo telling his employees work more and not have work-life balance so it can pay off later but who really got the payoff? Certainly him and his exec team; not the majority of amazon workers who worked the overtime.

As for the OP, he shouldn't need to increase his hours to take one more responsibilities. I would approach the boss and worked together to prioritize the tasks without adding more hours. There has to be some tasks that can be offloaded to someone else or not get done. That's the only way to show you are ambitious/team player without burning yourself out.

For the people who advocated he work more hours without pay; remember he is already working 50-55 hours week. Which in my opinion, he's already outperforming in his role and working harder than most people.

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:50 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:12 pm

Simple question as stated but we see the situation differently. If OP cannot meet the requirements of the job within hours acceptable to OP then he should seek other employment or tell manager to help him prioritize responsibilities. Right now OP is getting compensated for what he perceived as extra hours. He hasn't been asked to take on extra responsibilities. IMO he should welcome more responsibilities. It's not about putting a ceiling on how many hours one will work or one will ask one to work. Every manager wants more fruitful work from reports not more hours. Sole concept that is.
Nice back track there buddy, lol. That's corporate speak for "You should work more hours without pay to help me meet my bonus for the year. And if you are lucky; you'll get promoted"

A lot of the posters seemed to be under the impression working more hours with more responsibilities equate to better pay/promotions later on which is not exactly the case. I've seen it many times in my career where it would pay off and other times it wouldn't pay off. It's not a guaranteed.

HornedToad
Posts: 963
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 12:36 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by HornedToad » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:08 am

There seems to be several assumptions here:

1. More responsibility = more hours worked. CEO's must work thousands of hours a week then.
2. That lower priority tasks cannot be ignored, delegated, or de-prioritized
3. That having a prioritization and tradeoff discussion with a manager means you are not a team player.
4. That a manager is a useless/not politically savvy if they can't protect their staff so they don't have to work more than 40 hours a week
4a. That the manager actually knows how much people are working each week. They know output, not hours, especially if staff is inefficient or count hours in a weird way. I've seen people count lunch time in hours worked when they took an hour lunch each week or travel time to/from the office since it's time away from home.
5. That any potential increase in time worked is an indefinite time frame.

These are faulty assumptions. Have the conversation with your manager of how to prioritize the new responsibilities and what can be ignored/delegated/etc. Emphasis on need to deliver high quality work and how he can help you focus on it. You don't know what's feasible or expected without talking thru it with the manager and setting hard limits on what you are willing to work and time boxing tasks so you get as much done as you can within 50 hours a week.

For the specific questions, I wouldn't expect my staff to work more than 50 hours a week. I would expect them to handle the situation like a professional and we come to mutual agreement on priority of tasks and required quality of work. I would want them to focus on what is most important to the company and help their career growth and not just what they are comfortable doing. Some people spend HOURS prepping for presentations or things of that nature when it doesn't require that level of quality.

Some of the posters here have a very much clock puncher mentality, which is fine if that's what you want but assess where you are in your career and where you want to be. Even if you want to tell your manager you want to go back to 40hrs/week, the EQ way of doing it isn't how its suggested here. It's to timebox tasks, get the most important done and ignore the rest and make sure there is alignment with management on what are critical vs high priority or medium priority.

jjface
Posts: 2598
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:18 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by jjface » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:38 am

I think it is pretty straight forward since the op says he is salaried with payment for each hour of overtime. If you don't want to take more on you just say you can already see I am working 15 hours overtime a week and can't possibly take on any more. We need an extra man on deck.

msk
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:40 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by msk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:15 am

Pity. I see that the OP has reached his capacity. Your boss is interested in output, not hours. Your company is paid for output and they pay you for output. You seem to have trainee engineers that you cannot trust as yet. It is your job to get them up to speed asap so that you can delegate more, just like your boss is keen on delegating to you. As one progresses upward in any corporation one gets bombarded with a zillion emails being copied to him. Does he really expect a manual to specify which to read and which to skip? You can be an excellent BH without reading all the posts... Management aptitude is all about prioritization without ending up a nervous wreck working 80 hours a week. We all have our limits and there is no shame in admitting that yours have been reached. It's really nothing to do with money. I was about to promote a subordinate many years ago to become the head of our Training Center. At any time there were some 500 trainees and 40+ tutors. He turned it down because he did not wish to be exposed to the emotional demands and pleaded to be left as Deputy Head for his remaining 3 years to retirement. I also have a relative who worked his way up to a VP position in a mid size company (few hundred engineers). Unfortunately he worried me through the years because he was always grumbling about the stress of his various jobs on the way up, everything from QC issues to labor unions. Well, at age 45 he has just been laid off, as a VP! Know your stress limits and do not be afraid to voice them or even deliberately pass on possible promotions. We are all built in different ways. The answer is always the ability to prioritise so that you retain your sanity and still see the kids.

A440
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:46 am
Location: NJ

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by A440 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:54 am

Are you part of a union/association that can file a grievance? A subject such as this reminds me why I pay $1,200/year in union dues and appreciate the right to collectively bargain our contract every 3 years.

I wish you the best with your situation.
I don't know what the future holds, but I know who holds my future.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:00 am

msk wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:15 am
As one progresses upward in any corporation one gets bombarded with a zillion emails being copied to him. Does he really expect a manual to specify which to read and which to skip? You can be an excellent BH without reading all the posts... Management aptitude is all about prioritization without ending up a nervous wreck working 80 hours a week.
One of my kids got an IB (International Baccalaureate) diploma in high school. It was good for some reasons, but most importantly, the extensive reading list taught him Reading List Triage: which texts had to be read thoroughly, which texts to skim, and which texts to ignore. Some kids read everything; they were drudges. He earned the diploma while having a GF, friends, and playing hockey. Learning how to prioritize helped him succeed in college (combined MS and BS in 4 years).

Work smarter.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

msk
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:40 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by msk » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:09 am

A440 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:54 am
Are you part of a union/association that can file a grievance? A subject such as this reminds me why I pay $1,200/year in union dues and appreciate the right to collectively bargain our contract every 3 years.
Unions do not cater for engineers that are destined for upper management, like, hopefully, is the case for the OP. An anecdote. My whole family went to the same elite university and one of my daughter's friends joined a large airline as a stewardess after graduation. I took them to dinner and I sensed from her conversation that she had a "union mentality", quoting rules, etc. and talking about management as alien beings. Nothing excessively wrong with sticking to rules but I did warn her that her education had prepared her for management; and if she wishes to continue as a stewardess long term I very much expected her to end up running either the union or the airline. Unfortunately 20 years later she is still a stewardess, perhaps a senior stewardess? Not everyone listens to good BH advice :annoyed

stoptothink
Posts: 5892
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by stoptothink » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:33 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:00 am
msk wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:15 am
As one progresses upward in any corporation one gets bombarded with a zillion emails being copied to him. Does he really expect a manual to specify which to read and which to skip? You can be an excellent BH without reading all the posts... Management aptitude is all about prioritization without ending up a nervous wreck working 80 hours a week.
One of my kids got an IB (International Baccalaureate) diploma in high school. It was good for some reasons, but most importantly, the extensive reading list taught him Reading List Triage: which texts had to be read thoroughly, which texts to skim, and which texts to ignore. Some kids read everything; they were drudges. He earned the diploma while having a GF, friends, and playing hockey. Learning how to prioritize helped him succeed in college (combined MS and BS in 4 years).

Work smarter.
"Reading triage" may be the single greatest skill I developed while getting my PhD. I was often reading through several hundred pages of scientific research per day, you learn how to mine the most pertinent information in mountains of complex text really fast. Has been an invaluable skill in my career; easily the single greatest factor as to why I am always more productive than most of my colleagues.

User avatar
2pedals
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:31 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by 2pedals » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:58 am

OP,

This is a highly personal question. You will have to decide what you think is best for you and your family. I think it all depends on what you think will happen in the future.

Will you be successful in you new role? Will you be rewarded for taking on more responsibility? What kind of reward will it be, if you are? How will your family respond to you being away for more hours? Do you want the extra pay for more hours? Will your boss(es) take most or all of the credit for your extra work if you are successful? Will the extra hours affect your health? Will your professional career be forever penalized if you refuse? Do you want to stay on good terms with your employer and/or boss? Will your co-workers be disappointed?, etc, etc, etc

For me the answer to this usually depended upon the answers to the above questions. Ultimately it's your life and your decision to make. Sometimes in life there isn't always a clear way to make decisions and how one should move forward.

User avatar
galving
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:47 pm
Location: US Gulf Coast

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by galving » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:29 am

What is your longer term career aspiration/target?
Does the additional responsibilities move you closer to your goal or further away?

Recommend that you play with the 'long game' in mind.

Also agree with the other posters regarding prioritization, ultimately some non or lower valued tasks are completely eliminated.
Building the ability to sort out what is critical from what is important is a very valuable skill to add to your skill stack.

Good luck!

crazygrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by crazygrow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:28 am

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:52 pm
crazygrow wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.
crazygrow,

If you want others to provide their number, why don't you provide your first?

KlangFool
I didn't ask people to, just said it would be an interesting datapoint (if it was verifiable). From my own vantage point (yes, anecdotal at best), I went into a career where people can end up making $50,000 their whole life or get into upper management and make mid six figures - most have the same education and opportunities. I have ended up in upper management but I know others I started with who are still in that lower range. I leapt at opportunity - including several risky propositions, worked hard (yes, sometimes taking on more work before getting more pay willingly), worked smart, and had some helping hands that I owe dearly. We each get to prioritize and make our own decisions, I just think the OP may be getting some bad advice but we don't know enough about his situation to really make that determination. Not everybody in this life is incompetent or looking to take advantage of you...

crazygrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by crazygrow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:33 am

AKsuited wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:26 pm
crazygrow wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.
You forgot the third group who took on the extra work and didn't get the payoff that you received. It's not so black and white where you work your ass off early and there is a guaranteed payoff. I've experienced both sides where I took more responsibilities early on without pay. Sometimes it would pay off and other times it wouldn't. It's like when Jeff Bezo telling his employees work more and not have work-life balance so it can pay off later but who really got the payoff? Certainly him and his exec team; not the majority of amazon workers who worked the overtime.

As for the OP, he shouldn't need to increase his hours to take one more responsibilities. I would approach the boss and worked together to prioritize the tasks without adding more hours. There has to be some tasks that can be offloaded to someone else or not get done. That's the only way to show you are ambitious/team player without burning yourself out.

For the people who advocated he work more hours without pay; remember he is already working 50-55 hours week. Which in my opinion, he's already outperforming in his role and working harder than most people.
The 3-4 years I worked 70-90 hours, traveled heavily, etc. gave me such a foundation in my career (experience, knowledge, contacts) that I easily surpassed the rest of my peers and set up the next 20-30 years of work (depending on when I choose to retire).

No one should let themselves be taken advantage of. I agree with your point about discussing with his managers priorities, not just blindly working more hours. But we don't know enough about the OP, his manager, etc. to make broad assumptions that his company/manager are just out to screw him. If I had approached my career that way, I wouldn't have ever made it anywhere.

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:53 am

crazygrow wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:28 am
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:52 pm
crazygrow wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.
crazygrow,

If you want others to provide their number, why don't you provide your first?

KlangFool
I didn't ask people to, just said it would be an interesting datapoint (if it was verifiable). From my own vantage point (yes, anecdotal at best), I went into a career where people can end up making $50,000 their whole life or get into upper management and make mid six figures - most have the same education and opportunities. I have ended up in upper management but I know others I started with who are still in that lower range. I leapt at opportunity - including several risky propositions, worked hard (yes, sometimes taking on more work before getting more pay willingly), worked smart, and had some helping hands that I owe dearly. We each get to prioritize and make our own decisions, I just think the OP may be getting some bad advice but we don't know enough about his situation to really make that determination. Not everybody in this life is incompetent or looking to take advantage of you...
OP is probably making around 150K per year without the overtime.

Klangfool

Trader Joe
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:38 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by Trader Joe » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:01 pm

alphacollector wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:54 pm
I wanted to get some feedback on this subject. At a recent weekly meeting, it was alluded to that myself and another person will soon be asked to take on alot of our direct bosses responsibilities since we are incredibly busy and his workload is more than he can handle. I have a pretty good feeling there will not be any additional compensation offered with this increased responsibility. I’m already working 13-15 hours of overtime every week.

If you’ve ran across this situation how did you handle it? I really have no interest in changing jobs. My job is quite specialized and very secure. I have no doubts that I could say I’m not really interested in taking on any more work and not have any repercussions over it, but at the same time I don’t want to be looked at as a non-team player.

Advice?
If you are an exempt employee this is normal (no additional compensation). Business ebbs and flows. Do whatever it takes to get the job done and do whatever is asked. If you do not want to do this you can always seek other employment.

crazygrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by crazygrow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:24 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:53 am
crazygrow wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:28 am
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:52 pm
crazygrow wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Obviously not possible but I’d love to know the average income from the group who says don’t do it and those that say take it on and earn the money. I know that I was one who took on the work, excelled and ended up making a lot of money and able to cut back on hours in my 30s. Yes some sacrifice before then but now I’ve established a high income and normal hours.
crazygrow,

If you want others to provide their number, why don't you provide your first?

KlangFool
I didn't ask people to, just said it would be an interesting datapoint (if it was verifiable). From my own vantage point (yes, anecdotal at best), I went into a career where people can end up making $50,000 their whole life or get into upper management and make mid six figures - most have the same education and opportunities. I have ended up in upper management but I know others I started with who are still in that lower range. I leapt at opportunity - including several risky propositions, worked hard (yes, sometimes taking on more work before getting more pay willingly), worked smart, and had some helping hands that I owe dearly. We each get to prioritize and make our own decisions, I just think the OP may be getting some bad advice but we don't know enough about his situation to really make that determination. Not everybody in this life is incompetent or looking to take advantage of you...
OP is probably making around 150K per year without the overtime.

Klangfool
This isn’t the additional information we need. Does OP think his manager is trying to screw him? How does the company reward its employees? What is its compensation culture? Etc. etc.

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:37 pm

crazygrow wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:24 pm

This isn’t the additional information we need. Does OP think his manager is trying to screw him? How does the company reward its employees? What is its compensation culture? Etc. etc.
crazygrow,

1) OP's annual pay is about 150K per year.

2) The annual bonus is minimal.

3) OP is paid his normal pay rate for the additional 13 to 15 hours per week.

4) OP will be asked to work beyond the 53 to 55 hours per week.

What else do you need to know?

KlangFool

crazygrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by crazygrow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:56 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:37 pm
crazygrow wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:24 pm

This isn’t the additional information we need. Does OP think his manager is trying to screw him? How does the company reward its employees? What is its compensation culture? Etc. etc.
crazygrow,

1) OP's annual pay is about 150K per year.

2) The annual bonus is minimal.

3) OP is paid his normal pay rate for the additional 13 to 15 hours per week.

4) OP will be asked to work beyond the 53 to 55 hours per week.

What else do you need to know?

KlangFool
The things I posted above would be a starting point. If life was “I will only give x for an immediate y” relationships wouldn’t exist and I believe all parts of our lives are driven by the relationships we create. It isn’t a simple multiplication of salary numbers and hours. We may have to agree to disagree on this point as I believe our corporate experiences have differed dramatically based on other posts of yours I have read. Generally I agree with your direct advice, but on this topic I don’t based on the limited info we have so far.

edge
Posts: 3410
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:44 pm
Location: NY

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by edge » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:09 pm

You should set the expectation that for a more senior appointment you anticipate being commensurately compensated assuming good performance.

Meaning, it might not come immediately, but it needs to come.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:20 pm

edge wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:09 pm
You should set the expectation that for a more senior appointment you anticipate being commensurately compensated assuming good performance.

Meaning, it might not come immediately, but it needs to come.
That might work, but it might trigger a reaction. When I was a manager, if someone said that to me, I would had a voice in the back of my head say, “what do you think I am, a barbarian?” I wouldn’t have gone off, but it would have made me wonder about the asker. Unless the company is full of jerks, the comp will come.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

Beensabu
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by Beensabu » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:25 pm

If you like what you do and you're happy doing it and never doing anything else and you're sure saying "sorry, not interested" won't have any negative repercussions on you continuing to do what you do and be happy doing it, then just say no.

On the other hand, this has the makings of a competition for promotion being set up between you and your coworker. If you don't want to compete and you think your coworker would be a good manager, then just say no. If the thought of your coworker being your manager makes you want to hurl, then compete, because you won't get to continue being happy doing what you do in that case.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next."

User avatar
bengal22
Posts: 1746
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:20 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by bengal22 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:38 pm

Actually OP boss has not asked him to work more hours nor has boss said he will ask him to work more hours in the future. Someone in a weekly meeting alluded that OP and another may be asked to take on more responsibility. Not sure what we are discussing.
"Earn All You Can; Give All You Can; Save All You Can." .... John Wesley

Topic Author
alphacollector
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by alphacollector » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:28 pm

This topic is getting a little more heated than I ever intended. There has been some good advice posted hear that gives me some ideas of how to approach the impending discussion of taking over some of my bosses work. Ultimately I will be the one who decides whats right for me and what I’m willing to take on. Here is some additional info that seems to keep coming up.

1) My manager is one of the smartest, hardest working people I know. I have full faith in him as a great manager and boss. We are simply busier than we have ever been and he needs help with his work load.
2) In general I believe the management in my company is top tier and not out to screw anyone. I don’t deal with the financial side of things so it’s really not possible for me to say whether they can afford to pay more.
3) I really don’t think taking on additional work will lead to a promotion, because there is no position to be promoted to. We simply aren’t structured that way. It will probably be a minimum of 10 years before my boss is promoted to “upper management”, filling someone’s position that is retiring and by that time I will be looking to ease into retirement (within 5 years of then) and likely will not want to take on the stress of his job even if it was offered to me 10 years from now.
4) I’m 40 and my salary is about 100k per year with an annual bonus around 5-8k. I live in a pretty low cost of living area.
Last edited by alphacollector on Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? - Mark 8:36

thx1138
Posts: 985
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:14 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by thx1138 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:18 pm

Taking your update a face value then the best thing to do is communicate clearly after you've thought carefully about what you are willing to do. Something along the lines of:

1. I'm happy to help out but because of my family situation I'm actually looking to reduce hours, not increase them. How can we use the time I have to best help? If we put new things on my plate we'll have to figure out how to get some things off of it.

2. I can possibly remain at current hours or potentially help more in the short term but we really need to figure out a medium term plan to make my work load closer to 40 hours and at the same time help my boss. If we can't hire another "me" perhaps there are folks we can hire to take work away from my boss and me that doesn't strictly need to be done by us. (e.g. sometimes "program managers" or "program controllers" can off load a lot of "non-creative work" such as monthly reports, approving time cards, pre-filtering client emails and such).

3. I'm quite happy with the work I'm already doing and I don't consider taking on these new responsibilities as desirable for the remainder of my career - but again I'm happy to help where I can temporarily.

Obviously change those if they don't meet your desires!

If the management is what you say it is then be clear about your desires so they can plan as best as they can. Obviously the less you trust your management the more care you need to have it playing cards closer to your vest. Regardless of how awesome they are you need to communicate clearly and carefully. Always try to understand where the company and the management is coming from and what their priorities are to best make your case.

If you are in government contracting then there likely are limits to what can be billed based on a skill set and years of experience. If you want to find out what you need to do to increase your salary see if you can find your labor categories on your company's GSA schedule of labor rates and their descriptions for government customers. If you already meet a higher category document that with your employer so they can start moving you to that higher labor category. Otherwise look at what the higher categories require and decide if you want to do those things.

It sounds like you are in a position in which you are trying to reduce hours and gracefully transition to early retirement without going through the annoyance of doing management work. Similar position for me. Nice place to be really as well. Hope it works out for you.

If that really is your goal then you can ignore the thread advice to start doing everything asked in hopes of getting a promotion of responsibilities in the future. And if your management is what you say it is you can ignore all the "stick it to the man" advice as well. Make it clear to them what your goals are because they may be assuming they are something quite different. But again - only communicate this if you are confident it will be received well.

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:50 pm

alphacollector wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:28 pm

3) I really don’t think taking on additional work will lead to a promotion, because there is no position to be promoted to. We simply aren’t structured that way. It will probably be a minimum of 10 years before my boss is promoted to “upper management”, filling someone’s position that is retiring and by that time I will be looking to ease into retirement (within 5 years) and likely will not want to take on the stress of his job even if it was offered to me.
3) I’m 40 and my salary is about 100k per year with an annual bonus around 5-8k. I live in a pretty low cost of living area.
Thanks for commenting and clarifying your relationship with your company/boss. IMO, what you said above is what you need to focus on. You say there will be no promotion and no more ladders to climb and you intend to stay 5 years. You already are leaning a certain way and need a confirmation. If I were in your shoes; no I wouldn't do it either if I was so close to retirement. I rather use the time to focus on other aspects for my life like family, health, hobbies.

Topic Author
alphacollector
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by alphacollector » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:11 pm

AKsuited wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:50 pm
alphacollector wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:28 pm

3) I really don’t think taking on additional work will lead to a promotion, because there is no position to be promoted to. We simply aren’t structured that way. It will probably be a minimum of 10 years before my boss is promoted to “upper management”, filling someone’s position that is retiring and by that time I will be looking to ease into retirement (within 5 years) and likely will not want to take on the stress of his job even if it was offered to me.
3) I’m 40 and my salary is about 100k per year with an annual bonus around 5-8k. I live in a pretty low cost of living area.
Thanks for commenting and clarifying your relationship with your company/boss. IMO, what you said above is what you need to focus on. You say there will be no promotion and no more ladders to climb and you intend to stay 5 years. You already are leaning a certain way and need a confirmation. If I were in your shoes; no I wouldn't do it either if I was so close to retirement. I rather use the time to focus on other aspects for my life like family, health, hobbies.
I modified my post you quoted to clarify. I’ll probably be be looking to retire early (in 15 years). The 5 years till retirement I quoted was how much time I’ll have left until retirement 10 years from now when my boss will likely be promoted, leaving his position vacant and available to be promoted into, which I most likely will not want to do at that time.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? - Mark 8:36

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:27 pm

alphacollector wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:11 pm

I modified my post you quoted to clarify. I’ll probably be be looking to retire early (in 15 years). The 5 years till retirement I quoted was how much time I’ll have left until retirement 10 years from now when my boss will likely be promoted, leaving his position vacant and available to be promoted into, which I most likely will not want to do at that time.
The difference between 5 and 15 years is HUGE. A lot of things can change in 15 years so you have to factor that in. RIGHT NOW, it still sounds like you aren't interested in your bosses position but you might change your tune in 5-10 years. In this case; I'll reiterate what I said earlier. Work with your boss to see if you can prioritize other tasks/responsibilities so if you want to take on some of his load, you wouldn't have to increase your hours. You have to let him know firmly, I'm interested and willing but I don't want to increase my heavy workload already. Remember, you ARE already doing overtime.

smithbt2
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by smithbt2 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:40 pm

I am only 24 and I have encountered this myself. Long hours with no overtime, growing responsibilities, and no raise / bonus or reward. I put my foot down and asked to be compensated more. I was fed the, "we are looking at extreme growth without the funding," bs and I threatened to quit. They immediately bumped my salary up from $70K to $80K and let me know I am an asset to the company. Except, they were too late. I stayed a couple months and then put in my notice when I found the right opportunity. They immediately ended my employment upon notice but paid me for the two weeks (which was unusual, they normally let people work the two weeks). That being said, I learned early on to not work for free and to go after what I deserve. If you ever feel you are being taken advantage of or are not being appropriately rewarded / compensated, you probably aren't.

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:42 pm

crazygrow wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:33 am
The 3-4 years I worked 70-90 hours, traveled heavily, etc. gave me such a foundation in my career (experience, knowledge, contacts) that I easily surpassed the rest of my peers and set up the next 20-30 years of work (depending on when I choose to retire).

No one should let themselves be taken advantage of. I agree with your point about discussing with his managers priorities, not just blindly working more hours. But we don't know enough about the OP, his manager, etc. to make broad assumptions that his company/manager are just out to screw him. If I had approached my career that way, I wouldn't have ever made it anywhere.
You are correct in that we aren't in his shoes so only he would know best. When you were doing 70-90 hours, did you have a family to take care of and what age were you? From reading his posts; I gather he is early 40s with a family and makes a great salary in a LCOL area well on his way to a great retirement. From that standpoint; he doesn't have a financial need to climb the ladder.

If he was single, early 20s and fresh out of college; I say by all means, take more work and learn as much as your can. I did it through out my 20s and early 30s but chose to slow it down when I had my family. My personal choice; no regrets. I don't like people blindly advocating he should take more responsibilities/work without more pay just to further is his career without knowing his entire situation.

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:44 pm

smithbt2 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:40 pm
I am only 24 and I have encountered this myself. Long hours with no overtime, growing responsibilities, and no raise / bonus or reward. I put my foot down and asked to be compensated more. I was fed the, "we are looking at extreme growth without the funding," bs and I threatened to quit. They immediately bumped my salary up from $70K to $80K and let me know I am an asset to the company. Except, they were too late. I stayed a couple months and then put in my notice when I found the right opportunity. They immediately ended my employment upon notice but paid me for the two weeks (which was unusual, they normally let people work the two weeks). That being said, I learned early on to not work for free and to go after what I deserve. If you ever feel you are being taken advantage of or are not being appropriately rewarded / compensated, you probably aren't.
Dude; you are 24, young and probably family-free without a lot of responsibilities. The world is your oyster! Take advantage of it! Of course it behooves you to take on more work right now for the payoff later. Read his posts; he is in his early 40s and has a family, makes a great salary already and lives in a LCOL.

Completely set of different circumstances and situations.

crazygrow
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:56 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by crazygrow » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:46 pm

AKsuited wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:42 pm
crazygrow wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:33 am
The 3-4 years I worked 70-90 hours, traveled heavily, etc. gave me such a foundation in my career (experience, knowledge, contacts) that I easily surpassed the rest of my peers and set up the next 20-30 years of work (depending on when I choose to retire).

No one should let themselves be taken advantage of. I agree with your point about discussing with his managers priorities, not just blindly working more hours. But we don't know enough about the OP, his manager, etc. to make broad assumptions that his company/manager are just out to screw him. If I had approached my career that way, I wouldn't have ever made it anywhere.
You are correct in that we aren't in his shoes so only he would know best. When you were doing 70-90 hours, did you have a family to take care of and what age were you? From reading his posts; I gather he is early 40s with a family and makes a great salary in a LCOL area well on his way to a great retirement. From that standpoint; he doesn't have a financial need to climb the ladder.

If he was single, early 20s and fresh out of college; I say by all means, take more work and learn as much as your can. I did it through out my 20s and early 30s but chose to slow it down when I had my family. My personal choice; no regrets. I don't like people blindly advocating he should take more responsibilities/work without more pay just to further is his career without knowing his entire situation.
I have six kids that were really young during the period, so I understand the difficulty in balancing both and thus why I slowed down.

OP, best of luck! Glad you feel that your company isn't out to screw you and that your boss is genuinely a good person/manager. Having a more positive view towards the view changes everything!

Normchad
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by Normchad » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:52 pm

I personally recommend taking advantage of every opportunity you have. I'm 100% on board with Sandtrap on this.

I'm a manager of a lot of people. When we're doling out bonuses, or promoting people and giving raises, they go to the folks who go the extra mile. Taking advantage of opportunities signals to everybody your commitment to your career and your team. Passing on them sends a very different message.

cashboy
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:03 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by cashboy » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:07 pm

if you are working 13-15 hours overtime then you have two jobs:
a full time job at 40 hours
and a part time job at 13-15 hours.

now add 5-10 hours, on top of what you already have, for this new work.
40 + 15 + 10 = 65 hours

straight time overtime, though better than nothing, is less than true overtime as your time out of core hours is worth more.

based upon my experience, i would suggest the following:

say you appreciate being trusted with the handling of some of the work of your manager...
say you would MOST certainly like to help out....
but then say you are 'beyond the point' where you can take on any additional work.... unless some of your existing work can be reassigned...
then see how they respond

be prepared for all kind of excuses like 'it will only be for a while', or 'they will see what they can do at review time', etc. - or they will try to reassign your existing work and all is well for you.

over a 40+ year career i worked for several managers who saw workers who reported to them as people to dump their work on (for whatever reason). some of these managers were very nice and smart people. the workers get little or no credit for picking up that work since it is not theirs in the first place. now, i did work for a couple of managers who did give me public credit for picking up some of their tasks, but that was the exception. you say your manager is a nice guy - maybe... but note that people can change.

i worked with a woman who called me crying her eyes out because she could not handle her workload as it was and our manager just gave her more. i said she should talk to the manager; she was afraid to (she was a new hire). so, i spoke to our manager, without mentioning the phone call, and said the woman appeared to be overworked. his response was that he would keep assigning work until she said no. i said what if she does not say no, and doesn't he manage people's workload (I was an ex-manager at the time)? he said he would keep assigning her extra work until she said no.

bottom line, some managers treat people as people; some managers treat people as dumping grounds. you need to determine which is the case here and respond. again, people change....

lastly, you mention you do not think management is trying to screw people - i hope that is true for you. but, you never know that they are going to until they do.
Last edited by cashboy on Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:01 pm, edited 7 times in total.

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 pm

OP,

Once upon a time, I was working late at night beyond the office hours from 10 pm to 5 am. Then, I choose to skip the 8 am monthly staff meeting. My manager complained to me that he expected me to attend the 8 am meeting. This is what he would do. Even though, there was nothing important to discuss at that meeting.

My ex-manager is a hardworking and smart engineer. But, he was a lousy manager. I fired him a few months later.

Just because someone is smart and hardworking, it does not necessary makes the person a good manager. Just because the manager is willing to work 60 to 80 hours per week, it does not mean everyone under the person should work 60 to 80 hours.

Jack Ma founded Ali Baba. It makes sense for him to work 996 (9 am to 9 pm, 6 days per week). It does not make sense for those do not own Ali Baba to work that kind of hours.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business ... index.html

KlangFool

edge
Posts: 3410
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:44 pm
Location: NY

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by edge » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:12 pm

I've observed that some companies are total jerks and will take advantage unless a healthy nudge is given from time to time.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:20 pm
edge wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:09 pm
You should set the expectation that for a more senior appointment you anticipate being commensurately compensated assuming good performance.

Meaning, it might not come immediately, but it needs to come.
That might work, but it might trigger a reaction. When I was a manager, if someone said that to me, I would had a voice in the back of my head say, “what do you think I am, a barbarian?” I wouldn’t have gone off, but it would have made me wonder about the asker. Unless the company is full of jerks, the comp will come.

Former Usher
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:21 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by Former Usher » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:41 am

AKsuited wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:50 pm
A lot of the posters seemed to be under the impression working more hours with more responsibilities equate to better pay/promotions later on which is not exactly the case. I've seen it many times in my career where it would pay off and other times it wouldn't pay off. It's not a guaranteed.
Agreed. Earlier in my career, I took on more responsibility and a significantly higher workload. My next three annual raises were 1%, 2%, and 2%. When I resigned, my manager mentioned that he knew I was unhappy but didn't think I would leave.

User avatar
8foot7
Posts: 1571
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:29 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by 8foot7 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:37 am

edge wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:12 pm
I've observed that some companies are total jerks and will take advantage unless a healthy nudge is given from time to time.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:20 pm
edge wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:09 pm
You should set the expectation that for a more senior appointment you anticipate being commensurately compensated assuming good performance.

Meaning, it might not come immediately, but it needs to come.
That might work, but it might trigger a reaction. When I was a manager, if someone said that to me, I would had a voice in the back of my head say, “what do you think I am, a barbarian?” I wouldn’t have gone off, but it would have made me wonder about the asker. Unless the company is full of jerks, the comp will come.
I think if you think your company will need a nudge then you are probably right, and if you think your company will take care of you, you're probably right as well.

Some bosses give next to no attention to employee development or satisfaction and those are the folks who you'll need to politely remind after a while that such-and-such happened and you're still working at your previous pay. They're not everywhere but they're fairly easy to spot, the ones who are always behind on performance reviews, never give any type of positive or neutral feedback, and generally feel uncomfortable during bonus season.

AKsuited
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by AKsuited » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:54 pm

cashboy wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:07 pm
if you are working 13-15 hours overtime then you have two jobs:
a full time job at 40 hours
and a part time job at 13-15 hours.

now add 5-10 hours, on top of what you already have, for this new work.
40 + 15 + 10 = 65 hours

straight time overtime, though better than nothing, is less than true overtime as your time out of core hours is worth more.

based upon my experience, i would suggest the following:

say you appreciate being trusted with the handling of some of the work of your manager...
say you would MOST certainly like to help out....
but then say you are 'beyond the point' where you can take on any additional work.... unless some of your existing work can be reassigned...
then see how they respond

be prepared for all kind of excuses like 'it will only be for a while', or 'they will see what they can do at review time', etc. - or they will try to reassign your existing work and all is well for you.

over a 40+ year career i worked for several managers who saw workers who reported to them as people to dump their work on (for whatever reason). some of these managers were very nice and smart people. the workers get little or no credit for picking up that work since it is not theirs in the first place. now, i did work for a couple of managers who did give me public credit for picking up some of their tasks, but that was the exception. you say your manager is a nice guy - maybe... but note that people can change.

i worked with a woman who called me crying her eyes out because she could not handle her workload as it was and our manager just gave her more. i said she should talk to the manager; she was afraid to (she was a new hire). so, i spoke to our manager, without mentioning the phone call, and said the woman appeared to be overworked. his response was that he would keep assigning work until she said no. i said what if she does not say no, and doesn't he manage people's workload (I was an ex-manager at the time)? he said he would keep assigning her extra work until she said no.

bottom line, some managers treat people as people; some managers treat people as dumping grounds. you need to determine which is the case here and respond. again, people change....

lastly, you mention you do not think management is trying to screw people - i hope that is true for you. but, you never know that they are going to until they do.
Great comment here. I've experienced both sides of the coin during career in different industries/companies. OP needs to take a deep evaluation of of what kind of manager his boss and the company culture before committing to more work for no extra pay. Good company treats their employees well. If you work at any of the FANNGs; you are working a lot of hours but you also know there is a guaranteed payoff, not so much with other industries/companies. That's why they are always on the list of best companies to work for.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 11846
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:36 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:56 pm
Things change over time:
A story:

All too many decades ago, I has an unwritten policy in my company that anyone who wanted to learn more and move up for more pay could do so, if they put in the time to learn and work first. I was happy to teach and mentor. Those that wanted to give it a try, tried it and were glad, though many did not have the ambition or enough desire to do what was needed.
For many years, the response was, "great! glad for the opportunity" with no question of increase pay right away.
As time passed, maybe in the 80-90's, or later, can't remember. Attitudes changed to, "how much are you going to pay me to do this?" (sort of like, "if you want me to work harder, then pay me more, otherwise I'll do the minimum."
That later attitude became more common, even amongst people I knew closely for many years. More subjective vs appreciative.
Times have changed.
j
Much of that was before my career began, but it seems to me that the introduction of the 401k and "long defeat" (gotta throw in a Tolkien reference when I can) of pensions, at least in the private sector, may have been partially responsible for the attitude change you refer to and even had rippling effects (i.e. affecting firms and employees that never had pensions in the first place). It seems to me that it became increasingly easier for an employee to say "Why should I take on more work and responsibility in return for the mere hope of eventually getting paid more when I get a promotion right now by switching employers and take my 401k with me?" And many employers' response to this increasingly widespread attitude was "There's no employee loyalty any more, so let's get rid of that expensive pension plan." Fast forward to today, and in many industries, it's uncommon for young professionals to stay with an employer longer than two or three years, maybe even less.

I might be completely wrong about all of this though.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

smitcat
Posts: 3763
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by smitcat » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:56 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:36 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:56 pm
Things change over time:
A story:

All too many decades ago, I has an unwritten policy in my company that anyone who wanted to learn more and move up for more pay could do so, if they put in the time to learn and work first. I was happy to teach and mentor. Those that wanted to give it a try, tried it and were glad, though many did not have the ambition or enough desire to do what was needed.
For many years, the response was, "great! glad for the opportunity" with no question of increase pay right away.
As time passed, maybe in the 80-90's, or later, can't remember. Attitudes changed to, "how much are you going to pay me to do this?" (sort of like, "if you want me to work harder, then pay me more, otherwise I'll do the minimum."
That later attitude became more common, even amongst people I knew closely for many years. More subjective vs appreciative.
Times have changed.
j
Much of that was before my career began, but it seems to me that the introduction of the 401k and "long defeat" (gotta throw in a Tolkien reference when I can) of pensions, at least in the private sector, may have been partially responsible for the attitude change you refer to and even had rippling effects (i.e. affecting firms and employees that never had pensions in the first place). It seems to me that it became increasingly easier for an employee to say "Why should I take on more work and responsibility in return for the mere hope of eventually getting paid more when I get a promotion right now by switching employers and take my 401k with me?" And many employers' response to this increasingly widespread attitude was "There's no employee loyalty any more, so let's get rid of that expensive pension plan." Fast forward to today, and in many industries, it's uncommon for young professionals to stay with an employer longer than two or three years, maybe even less.

I might be completely wrong about all of this though.
My attitude is mine alone it does not belong to the company - when I was tempted to do less than my best it was time to leave.
Folks that idle along may be better suited to finding a different path.
Folks that believe idling or being 'unknown' at a job or career are most often the ones that find them unfulfilling and hate them.
We have a bunch more control over our lives than most give credit - my thoughts and advice is to seize it when you can.

dziuniek
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: Corrupticut

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by dziuniek » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:16 am

So everyone here is under the assumption that 50-55 hours per week seems to be a lot of hours to work....

ha,ha,ha.

KlangFool
Posts: 13248
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by KlangFool » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:36 pm

Fast forward to today, and in many industries, it's uncommon for young professionals to stay with an employer longer than two or three years, maybe even less.
willthrill81,

In general, as an engineer, it does not pay to stay with your first employer for more than 3 years. The market rate for an engineer with 2 to 3 years of experience is so much greater than a freshly graduated engineer. The first employer is generally not willing to give a 30% to 50% pay raise to match the market-level salary.

KlangFool

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 11846
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: No pay increase but increase in responsibility

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:36 am

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:21 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:36 pm

Fast forward to today, and in many industries, it's uncommon for young professionals to stay with an employer longer than two or three years, maybe even less.
willthrill81,

In general, as an engineer, it does not pay to stay with your first employer for more than 3 years. The market rate for an engineer with 2 to 3 years of experience is so much greater than a freshly graduated engineer. The first employer is generally not willing to give a 30% to 50% pay raise to match the market-level salary.

KlangFool
Until rather recently, the same issue was also present in academia. From roughly 2000 to 2015, the supply and demand for professors in certain disciplines resulted in them being able to get a significantly higher salary but only if they changed employers. Their former employers were rarely willing to increase their salary to match the market rate, but when the employer had to go back on the market to replace the professor, they were then often forced to pay at least that much and sometimes even more to get a newly minted Ph.D. Consequently, salary inversion became fairly common, whereby less experienced 'junior' faculty were paid more than tenured 'senior' faculty. Demand has slowed enough that a more 'normal' situation has taken place at many institutions, but I have little doubt that I'm still earning more than many of my former professors at my alma mater, despite their better track record as a result of having been in the profession longer.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Post Reply