80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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Vision
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80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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BeBH65
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by BeBH65 »

Global bonds hedged to euro (as in AGGH) is often advised, as it is wide diversified and offers stability.
US-USD bonds as in BND does not provide the stability that Bogleheads seek in their bond allocation.
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by BeBH65 »

There are both distributing as accumulating ETFs for global bonds. You need to calculate what is best for your tax residency - yearly dividends tax Vs capital gains tax.
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by BeBH65 »

Ishares AGGH is accumulating and hedged to euro right?
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by glorat »

Relating to a post I made at viewtopic.php?t=281432#p4576757

I see 4 viable bond index strategies one can take
1) Global Aggregate Bond (AGGG variants)
Barclays global index that includes govts and corporates from AAA to BBB
2) Global Govt Bond (IGLO variants)
Like 1) but without the corporates - Governments only
3) Global AAA-AA (IAAA variants)
Like 2) but only high grade bonds
4) Local only bonds

Once you've picked your strategy, you then ensure you take the version that is hedged to your local currency (if it isn't already)

None of these choices will be bad choices. There is no such thing as perfection.

If you want to get the expert recommendation, go with what Vanguard recommends, which is the Global Aggregate Bond flavour, hedged to EUR. Hence AGGH.

(p.s. for the advanced folk, I'll add the above options to boglebot when I have time)
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by tre3sori »

Hi vision,
if available to you, take a look at the distributing or accumulating funds that track the
Bloomberg Barclays Global Aggregate Float Adjusted and Scaled Index Hedged:

Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Distributing, TER 0.10%
Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Accumulating, TER 0.10%

Together with either

Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Distributing, TER 0.25%
Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Accumulating, TER 0.25%

this will give you a 80/20 Vanguard portfolio with TER 0.22%.
Not the cheapest possible but nice and simple.

Greets tre3sori
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by BeBH65 »

The two previous posts are excellent.
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by buylowbuyhigh »

The best ETFs seem to be listed above. If you are going with an accumulating stock ETF, the same logic probably applies for an accumulating bond ETF.

You could also check if there are local traditional bond funds available (from Lithuanian banks etc) that would be competitive with the ETFs in terms of cost and content (unlikely).

The third alternative that seems rational for EUR investors is to use savings accounts as a substitute for bonds. If you can get a positive interest from some € bank account and stay within deposit insurance limits, it could be at least as good a choice as a bond ETF/fund, at least for now.

For example the iShares € Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF (IEAG) has YTM (expected return if no changes in yield) of only 0.05%, BEFORE the 0.25% ER :annoyed After hedging other bonds to EUR these numbers are close to what one should expect from a global bond ETF/fund with similar credit risk. The interest rates and yields for EUR investors are really that low that most safe bond investments seem to yield less than the ER of the product.

Someone already holding bonds for years might not want to change because of unrealized taxes on capital gains, and the cash has no massive advantage in expected return. Just keep in mind that most advice here on bonds is for an USD investor, and we EUR investors have a different situation since bond yields in EUR have reached zero, which is (still?) a lower limit for cash. Personally I only have stocks (index fund) and cash (separate savings account) here in Finland.
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by DJN »

Hi,
I tried to put together a short paper on choosing a bond fund for non-US: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bond_ba ... _investors, it is worth a look.

Personally from an EU investor point of view, I would use a global aggregate (The Bloomberg Barclays Global Aggregate Bond Index) + some others, for example some proportion of:
- AGGH = global aggregate (The Bloomberg Barclays Global Aggregate Bond Index)
- SGLU = global govt (FTSE world government bond index WGBI)
- VETA = Euro gov
- VECA = Euro corp
- IBCI = inflation linked
- ITPE = TIPS

Mostly in global aggregate and world govt in the first instance and as you get more cash add some more variety. The additional funds are smaller amounts pretty much following the Vanguard target fund approach. For example if you are in the UK you might substitute Gilts for VETA.
DJN
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by silverex »

These are all excellent answers. Now that Vanguard has started of offer more accumulating ETFs, it's possible to build Boglehead portfolios using Vanguard funds in Lithuania as well.

By the way, this is the Vanguard paper on bonds and hedging for euro area investors: https://www.vanguardfrance.fr/documents ... -tlisg.pdf
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by tre3sori »

tre3sori wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:04 am Hi vision,
if available to you, take a look at the distributing or accumulating funds that track the
Bloomberg Barclays Global Aggregate Float Adjusted and Scaled Index Hedged:

Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Distributing, TER 0.10%
Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Accumulating, TER 0.10%

Together with either

Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Distributing, TER 0.25%
Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Accumulating, TER 0.25%

this will give you a 80/20 Vanguard portfolio with TER 0.22%.
Not the cheapest possible but nice and simple.

Greets tre3sori
Thanks, what ticker is for the EUR based accumulating fund?

And what do you mean "together with either"? I prefer to have only two ETFs: stock and bond. What options do I have?
Did you meant to take
Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Accumulating, TER 0.10% in 50% of bond portion and
Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Accumulating, TER 0.25% in other 50% of bond portion?

Why not just take EUR hedged bond fund for 100%?
Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Distributing, TER 0.10%
ISIN: IE00BG47KB92
ticker: VAGE

Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Accumulating, TER 0.10%
ISIN: IE00BG47KH54
ticker: VAGF

These are pretty new products. The tickers are for Deutsche Börse. I don't know if the funds are already available in other countries.

Yes, I meant you to consider

80% Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Accumulating
ISIN: IE00BK5BQT80
ticker: VWRA

20% Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Accumulating
ISIN: IE00BG47KH54
ticker: VAGF

for the whole portfolio of course, not for the bond portion :happy
Sorry for expanding the answer beyond your question.
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by tre3sori »

Vision wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:47 am
80% Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (USD) Accumulating
ISIN: IE00BK5BQT80
ticker: VWRA

20% Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF EUR Hedged Accumulating
ISIN: IE00BG47KH54
ticker: VAGF

for the whole portfolio of course, not for the bond portion :happy
Sorry for expanding the answer beyond your question.
This seems solid. So if I'm 80% VWRA and only 10% of VWRA is EUR, then I'm +20% EUR from VAGF, so 30% EUR, 70% USD and it will even out with time.

And since both are accumulating I don't have to pay tax from each dividend, only when I cash out.

Combined with annual rebalancing once a year this should be a good long term option I guess?
I would say so. Make sure to order with a decent limit since VAGF is not very liquid yet.
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[30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfolio?

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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by DJN »

Hi,
there are some obstacles to investing in US domiciled assets while you are a resident of Europe. Maybe have a read here and study the tax implications first: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Outline ... _domiciles
I am guessing from what you say that you are not a US citizen or tax payer.
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by glorat »

I almost posted exactly the same question yesterday for a friend stuck with a US only broker and I was about to also check that a VT/BND split was the way to go.

So I think we agree, if you are really really stuck with a US broker, VT and BND are solid choices.

However, pay attention to DJN's link. When I pointed out she was faced the huge ~30% estate tax she'd have to pay when passing down inheritance, she decided her statement about being stuck with her current broker might not be so true anymore. After that, I didn't need to post this question here anymore :)
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by BeBH65 »

Vision wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:52 am 30yo, Europe.

I am holding world stock index and want to diversify by also holding bonds, but I'm not sure which index to use.

I have option to purchase BND US index. Is it a solid choice?

Current portfolio is 80% VT pretty much, 20% left to allocate to bonds.

Any advice much appreciated.

I'm an EU investor, but forced to use US broker for now.
What is the role of the bonds in your portfolio?

Bonds are included in many Bogleheads portfolios to bring stability.
As you are in the EU I assume you are counting in Euro, and want stability in Euro.
BND is a fund of USD bonds in USD. This means that as EU investor you risk the volatility of the Euro/USD currency. Typically this volatility could be a lot larger then the return of the bonds. As such BND might not bring the stability to your portfolio that you desire.
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by BeBH65 »

Well, standard answer that you van also learn from the links already posted: global bonds hedged to your home currency.

Never heard that US fund providers provide this.
Second best would be some global bond funds unhedged. But not sure how much stability this I'll provide.

Before you buy anything you should be convinced that the estate and tax treaties between your country and the US are not generating any extra risks.
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by glorat »

Vision wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:28 am Hmm...so I can't get a hedged bond fund at US stock broker...this sucks :(
To be precise you can get a bond fund hedged to USD at a US broker, but I doubt you'll find one hedged to EUR or other currencies.
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by glorat »

Vision wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:32 am
glorat wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:31 am To be precise you can get a bond fund hedged to USD at a US broker, but I doubt you'll find one hedged to EUR or other currencies.
So which bond like that would you recommend for my case then?
Depends... someone asked the right question above which is... What is the role of the bonds in your portfolio? If you want a stable portfolio with respect to EUR (and not suffer estate taxes) then the advice is the same as before. Find a better broker

If you don't mind your portfolio based in USD and/or accept the USD/EUR currency volatility and you don't mind the estate taxes... well BND is probably the best choice available to you.
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

Post by glorat »

Vision wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:57 am I want more stability in my portfolio during the next recession. That is what I want bonds for.
Do your measure the stability of your portfolio in EUR or in USD (or you don't care... but beware that the EUR/USD fxrate could get pretty wild, more so than the price change of any stable bond)?
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Re: [30yo EU investor with US broker]Is BND a solid bond index choice for a 80% world stock index, 20% bond index portfo

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[30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by DJN »

Hi,
read the Wiki in the first instance, all the guidance you might need should be in there somewhere.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Simple_ ... portfolios

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bond_ba ... _investors
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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by BeBH65 »

You posed similar question a month ago.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=287985&p=4695207#p4695207
I assume the answers wil be similar.
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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by Valuethinker »

Vision wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:27 am As an 30yo EU investor I am looking for a bond index fund that would be domiciled in Ireland and would be suitable for a 80% world stock, 20% bond index portfolio.

I considered using BND and BNDW, but those are not domiciled in Ireland and I will incur currency friction costs (EUR/USD instability).

I would prefer this bond fund to be accumulative rather than distributive.

Any advice?
I am vague on the details but Irish domiciled funds are not generally a good idea for Irish-resident taxpayers?
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by BeBH65 »

Op,

This combined thread includes a lot of information on bond funds based in Ireland.

Do you have the answers that you need?

If not, please state your remaining queries.

You can also add to your opening post and title, to better reflect your current needs.
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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by Hyperborea »

Vision wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:27 am I would prefer this bond fund to be accumulative rather than distributive.
You won't find US domiciled accumulating funds. US tax law doesn't exempt or defer the accumulated dividends/interest so they are of no use to US tax residents and are actually difficult to track for tax purposes. For those reasons nobody offers them.
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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by glorat »

Hyperborea wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:27 am
Vision wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:27 am I would prefer this bond fund to be accumulative rather than distributive.
You won't find US domiciled accumulating funds. US tax law doesn't exempt or defer the accumulated dividends/interest so they are of no use to US tax residents and are actually difficult to track for tax purposes. For those reasons nobody offers them.
But you can now find an accumulating Ireland domiciled global usd bond fund. It is the new one that vanguard has launched (VAGU)
https://americas.vanguard.com/instituti ... ##overview

I'll need to update the boglebot with this one too....
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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by Hyperborea »

glorat wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:32 am
Hyperborea wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:27 am
Vision wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:27 am I would prefer this bond fund to be accumulative rather than distributive.
You won't find US domiciled accumulating funds. US tax law doesn't exempt or defer the accumulated dividends/interest so they are of no use to US tax residents and are actually difficult to track for tax purposes. For those reasons nobody offers them.
But you can now find an accumulating Ireland domiciled global usd bond fund. It is the new one that vanguard has launched (VAGU)
https://americas.vanguard.com/instituti ... ##overview

I'll need to update the boglebot with this one too....
Are they looking at Ireland domiciled ETFs now? It's a bit hard to tell with the many jumbled threads and conflicting requests. If so, then sure there are a number of accumulating ETFs available.
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Re: [30yo EU investor] Ireland based accumulative bond index fund for 80% World stock 20% bond portfolio?

Post by glorat »

Hyperborea wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:47 pm Are they looking at Ireland domiciled ETFs now? It's a bit hard to tell with the many jumbled threads and conflicting requests.
Agree the thread has become a mess.

OP is Lithuanian but presently using a US based broker, with all the tax risks that entails. In last post, he's considering Ireland domiciled ETFs after all. I can only assume he's also looking at a different broker too.

(then there's the interjector who needed to start a new thread... Also a non-US person)
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Re: 80% VWRA / 20% bond index - which bond index to choose?

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ I have moved the interjector's posts (michoco911) into a new thread. See: My Portfolio / Retirement Plan - Please Review & Comment

(If additional posts need to be moved, please report the post using the ! in the top-right corner of the post and explain what should be corrected. Thank you to the member who explained how to move michoco911's posts.)
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