Long-Term Care Decision

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Colormeado
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Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Colormeado » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am

My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.

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Watty
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Watty » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:20 am

I don't have a good answer as to what to do but be sure to understand how the LTC premium can increase. There was a recent thread about this.

viewtopic.php?t=284562

Be sure to understand the possible increases for the specific policy that you are looking at since the possible increases may be different than for a policy that was written years ago.

Also see my post in this thread(as well as the rest of the thread).

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=286257&p=4655109#p4655109

One big piece of information that is missing from your post is how much various levels of LTC would cost in your area. It is important to understand that assisted living is much less expensive than a nursing home.

Since you live in an area where homes can be bought for $150K I would suspect that LTC might cost a lot less than the national averages so take that into account. See the link in my post for information about what it costs in different cities, or even better call up some local nursing homes to get some real numbers for what it costs in your area for different levels of care.

stan1
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:26 am

Likely that premiums will increase at some point but you should be able to cover that.

A few extra questions:
- Do you also have SS or is that in the pensions?
- Would you be paying the premiums with the pension income or withdrawals from retirement accounts?
- Do you have a strong need to leave an estate (such as a trust for a special needs child)?
- Life expectancies: Are you in good health today?

Other than that I think you are right at the point where LTCI might have the best chance of a favorable value proposition. People with less assets/income can't afford it. People with more assets can self insure. Curious what others think on this one.

One important point that often gets overlooked: You don't need the LTCI to cover all of the care expenses. You can use some income and assets as well.

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JoeRetire
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:31 am

Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.
It's pretty inexpensive.

A few things to consider:
- is $5,000/month enough? see: https://www.genworth.com/aging-and-you/ ... -care.html Perhaps you plan to cover the remainder out of pocket?
- what does "3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years." mean? What happens at the end of the 20 years?
- what is the elimination period?
- are you in a state with a partnership program?

We have Mutual of Omaha plans with a 3% compound inflation feature. We purchased them about 5 years ago, just before turning 60. The premiums have never gone up. My wife is pre-diabetic, so her premiums are significantly more than mine.

TN_Boy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:40 am

Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.
Do you have the option of 100% survivor benefits? If so, how much would that reduce the yearly payment? I ask because 45k might not cover yearly assisted living expenses, but 60k or 65k would get pretty close in many areas. This would leave the surviving spouse in a better position if LTC was needed after one spouse died. And better off before then too :-).

And to be clear, you have about 850k in retirement money, and a house (paid off?) worth about 150k?

And same question others have, any SS?

bsteiner
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by bsteiner » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am

There's not much insurance in it. If you didn't buy the insurance, the $5,000 a year would probably grow to about $200,000 in 30 years. The risk isn't that you'll need $300,000 worth of care when you're in your late 80s or 90s. The risk is that something happens for which you'll need care for 10 or 20 years. A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.

Point
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Point » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:23 am

Assuming the premium is annual, it’s not bad. Something to take into account is family history- if parents had issues, needed help, or extended period help, leaning towards funding LTC this way is a good plan when resources can’t cover it.

Be aware of the limitations too. Number of ADLs required, exclusions of payment when in hospital, daily caps... these plans have gotchas you don’t realize until you try and use them. Assume you’ll have period costs, possibly large, to cover your self in addition to LTC.

We had a great experience with LTC and a uncle, and a great AL facility. The facility really worked with us to accommodate him and his condition(s), and they kept the LTC folks informed on changes when hospital stay happened (room is out of pocket then, Medicare covers hospitalization, food fee was waived at AL facility). He had one of the first LTC policies offered. The company was overextended.

If I remember right, CA had a 50% benefit coverage plan in place of the policy issued were to go bankrupt. Ours did go bankrupt.

Facility cost will vary depending on the state you are in, and since it’s labor intensive, and costs will escalate over time. You might look at what inflation (or medical cost inflation)will do to care costs in your area or planned area of use.

delamer
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by delamer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:34 am

bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
There's not much insurance in it. If you didn't buy the insurance, the $5,000 a year would probably grow to about $200,000 in 30 years. The risk isn't that you'll need $300,000 worth of care when you're in your late 80s or 90s. The risk is that something happens for which you'll need care for 10 or 20 years. A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.
There definitely is merit in that perspective.

However, I’d argue that another big risk is that one spouse needs assisted living/nursing home care for a few years while the other spouse still is living independently. In that situation, this type of LTC insurance would be valuable. Although a reverse mortgage would be another option.
Last edited by delamer on Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

02nz
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by 02nz » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:10 am

Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Are these annual premiums?

KansasDoc
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by KansasDoc » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm

A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.

If you have home or auto that is just a 1 year time horizon

However ltc can be 10-15 years out and I don’t trust insurance companies to not change the rules of the game to hurt the insured.

My experience is they do everything to deny payment as they have been underwater due to the costs rising faster than premiums.

Just one physicians perspective.

TN_Boy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:54 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.

If you have home or auto that is just a 1 year time horizon

However ltc can be 10-15 years out and I don’t trust insurance companies to not change the rules of the game to hurt the insured.

My experience is they do everything to deny payment as they have been underwater due to the costs rising faster than premiums.

Just one physicians perspective.
You said: "From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year"

Surely you mean skilled nursing for 100k a year? Assisted living is quite a bit cheaper than skilled nursing (and far more common). In my medium cost of living area, assisted living is much less than 100k per year.

stan1
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:07 pm

bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.
But it doesn't exist.

KansasDoc
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by KansasDoc » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:11 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.

If you have home or auto that is just a 1 year time horizon

However ltc can be 10-15 years out and I don’t trust insurance companies to not change the rules of the game to hurt the insured.

My experience is they do everything to deny payment as they have been underwater due to the costs rising faster than premiums.

Just one physicians perspective.
You said: "From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year"

Surely you mean skilled nursing for 100k a year? Assisted living is quite a bit cheaper than skilled nursing (and far more common). In my medium cost of living area, assisted living is much less than 100k per year.

Ltc with highest care level (think dementia total care) is about $100k per year
Regular Ltc is about $80k per year
AL is about $60k.

Mileage may vary with quality of nh

stan1
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:12 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.
Just curious if you were willing to share more information? Is this for home care or resident assisted living? Is it a debate with the insurer about degrees of meeting ADLs?

I can certainly see that some people (or their families) who could be in independent living might try to justify assisted living to get immediate financial benefit from the LTCI.

delamer
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by delamer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:13 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:11 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.

If you have home or auto that is just a 1 year time horizon

However ltc can be 10-15 years out and I don’t trust insurance companies to not change the rules of the game to hurt the insured.

My experience is they do everything to deny payment as they have been underwater due to the costs rising faster than premiums.

Just one physicians perspective.
You said: "From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year"

Surely you mean skilled nursing for 100k a year? Assisted living is quite a bit cheaper than skilled nursing (and far more common). In my medium cost of living area, assisted living is much less than 100k per year.

Ltc with highest care level (think dementia total care) is about $100k per year
Regular Ltc is about $80k per year
AL is about $60k.

Mileage may vary with quality of nh
Three years ago, in MCOL area, my mother’s skilled nursing care was $12,000/month.

delamer
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by delamer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:15 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:12 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.
Just curious if you were willing to share more information? Is this for home care or resident assisted living? Is it a debate with the insurer about degrees of meeting ADLs?

I can certainly see that some people (or their families) who could be in independent living might try to justify assisted living to get immediate financial benefit from the LTCI.
In my experience, those people in independent living in a CCRC will do anything possible to avoid going into assisted living.

stan1
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:21 pm

delamer wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:13 pm

Three years ago, in MCOL area, my mother’s skilled nursing care was $12,000/month.
Was that in her home or in a nursing home? That's very expensive. Perhaps there were lower cost options available but she had a choice to go with a more expensive one?

delamer
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by delamer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:24 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:21 pm
delamer wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:13 pm

Three years ago, in MCOL area, my mother’s skilled nursing care was $12,000/month.
Was that in her home or in a nursing home? That's very expensive. Perhaps there were lower cost options available but she had a choice to go with a more expensive one?
Nursing home.

I am sure there were lower-cost options.

KansasDoc
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by KansasDoc » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:43 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:12 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.
Just curious if you were willing to share more information? Is this for home care or resident assisted living? Is it a debate with the insurer about degrees of meeting ADLs?

I can certainly see that some people (or their families) who could be in independent living might try to justify assisted living to get immediate financial benefit from the LTCI.
Yes. Last case was in AL. Physician, physical therapist, and nursing home all agreed patient needed AL due to ADL needs. Insurance denied (one of the big 5).

The insurance states adl needs are not met despite care team approval. Insurance doesn’t even do independent assessment.

I am discouraged as a physician because having Ltc insurance doesn’t necessarily mean they will pay on legitimate claim

KansasDoc
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by KansasDoc » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm

Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.

Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables

However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.

JPM
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by JPM » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:50 pm

Lots of things to consider when purchasing an LTCi policy. Might be worth an hour with an eldercare attorney to translate the insurance jargon into plain English and to explain what the tradeoffs are in terms of cost, coverage, restrictions, waiting periods, and COL adjustments. AS time has gone on, policies seem to have become more restrictive and more expensive. If you ever are so unfortunate as to have to collect, you made need the eldercare attorney to get the insurer to live up to the contract. As the Kansas doctor wrote, getting the insurer to pay legitimate claims can be challenging and it helps to have an attorney or to be able and willing to play hardball with the insurer. In health lines, insurers put a lot of effort into dodging payment of claims and will use creative dodges to get the insured to pay charges that the insurer has agreed to pay. Dodging payment in these lines is a game played for money by insurers.

Who picks the nursing home, you or the insurer? How much input do you have in that decision? Nursing home quality and staffing varies a great deal where I live. Some are excellent and expensive, some are adequate and reasonably priced, and some are just terrible and if not exactly cheap, are cheaper than the intermediate grades and might be what you end up with if you don't have right of refusal of such a choice made by the insurer.

In my neighborhood of three counties in Illinois and Wisconsin the base nursing home is $8000/month + meds with private pay alongside public aid patients who pay the public aid rate. Relatively poor staffing levels. The good homes are all private pay and $15,000 and up per month plus meds. Staffing is good, amenities are good, and they treat the people well. There are some intermediate tier ones that are $10-14,000/month. $5000/month would not get you a tent in the back yard in even the poor places here. By and large, staffing quality and quantity is what separates the tiers.

Assisted living is much less expensive but much more independence is expected of the residents there. There are some that will continue to care of residents who decline to a certain level, but beyond that level you have to find a nursing home or hire a live-in caretaker at the assisted living facility. Often the LTCI policy pays off only with a degree of disability that would disqualify some, and maybe most, people from Assisted Living facilities here.

stan1
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:54 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm

Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
Great point. Has it been determined that medical insurance would pay for these, or would that be part of what LTCI would be needed to cover?

Topic Author
Colormeado
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Colormeado » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:21 pm

Thanks very much for all of your responses. Here are answers to some of the questions that were asked:
• According to Genworth survey (2018) - Home Health median is about $60,000; Assisted living is about $62,000; Semi-Private Nursing Home is $105,000 and Private Nursing Home is $109,000.
• The 3% compound for 20 years means benefits (monthly max and policy limit) grow by 3 percent each year for 20 years but do not increase after 20 years.
• The premium is an annual premium.
• The Elimination Period is 90 day (separate 90 days for each spouse).
• Benefits last over our lifetimes as long as the pool of money lasts.
• Asset mix is about $150,000 house; $150,000 cash/I-bonds; $700,000 (457 and ROTH IRAs).
• We have no social security. Costs above policy limits would come from pensions and 457 plan (i.e., like a 401K).
• Both are currently in good health. No special needs children. Would like to leave some money for children and grandchildren.
• My understanding is that a guaranty association covers up to $300,000 if a company is declared insolvent.

I definitely need to check to see if the benefits are shared when one spouse dies. Looking back at my notes, there was mention of having an additional rider for this.
Again, thanks for all your help with this big decision.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.
Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

KansasDoc
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by KansasDoc » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:18 pm

+1 to JPM everyone needs a health care attorney to collect on LTC insurance

A good elder friendly attorney is worth every penny they bill you for this


However if you need a health care attorney to protect your insurance is that insurance worth buying?

TN_Boy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.
Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
My sample size of 1 dealing with LTC was that we had no troubles at all with it (older relatives). We may have been lucky. Note that I am not a big fan of LTC insurance given current pricing.

Home care still requires somebody to physically help a person. From my personal experience with people needing LTC (and lots of visits to LTC facilities), I can't imagine wearables making that big a difference. I'd be interested in more thoughts on how that would work.

Kennedy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Kennedy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.
Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
My sample size of 1 dealing with LTC was that we had no troubles at all with it (older relatives). We may have been lucky. Note that I am not a big fan of LTC insurance given current pricing.

Home care still requires somebody to physically help a person. From my personal experience with people needing LTC (and lots of visits to LTC facilities), I can't imagine wearables making that big a difference. I'd be interested in more thoughts on how that would work.
KansasDoc's comment regarding wearables confused me as well. I think of wearables as devices like heart rate monitors, blood sugar monitors and the like. Don't most people in assisted living need someone to help them with toileting, bathing, dressing, eating and ambulating? As such, I don't see how a wearable device would keep someone out of AL.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:25 pm

I think the doctor was referring to much larger wearables, like exoskeletal walking assist for example. I already have a 24x7 glucose monitor; that’s not a future event.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

KansasDoc
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by KansasDoc » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:48 pm

Re wearables.
Examples: fall detection in Apple Watch
Heart rate variability
Geofencing for people that wander.
Sleep detection
Continuous glucose monitor


None of these things will keep anyone out of Ltc but together with home health they could delay need for Ltc by up to a year.

This is good for people that don’t have insurance as it could delay expense by a year

However for people with insurance I could see companies trying to use these to avoid paying for nursing home.

stan1
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by stan1 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:04 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:25 pm
I think the doctor was referring to much larger wearables, like exoskeletal walking assist for example. I already have a 24x7 glucose monitor; that’s not a future event.
Well that's what I was thinking of too. I can see how it would help with loss of mobility (such as getting out of a chair or toilet, staying stable in a shower, ...) . Maybe in 20 or 30 years?

Jackson12
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Jackson12 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:07 pm

Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.
We live in a low cost area and an inexpensive nursing home is $6000 a month ( semi- private room) so you’d need to cover the difference if the monthly maximum is $5000. Have you priced nursing homes in your desired area?

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:50 pm

bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
There's not much insurance in it. If you didn't buy the insurance, the $5,000 a year would probably grow to about $200,000 in 30 years. The risk isn't that you'll need $300,000 worth of care when you're in your late 80s or 90s. The risk is that something happens for which you'll need care for 10 or 20 years. A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.
My thoughts are similar.

A nursing home runs about $100k annually in our area. If the cost for the OP is similar, that means they would still be out of pocket $40k annually. At least it's unlikely that they'll need more than the combined 6 years of care funded at that level.

The OP is, IMHO, is probably able to self-insure LTC. If either spouse could live on the survivor's benefit of $45k plus half of their portfolio (e.g. assuming that up to half of their portfolio potentially went to fund LTC, which is very unlikely), then self-insuring is probably best.

At a 4% return, $3,584 invested annually for 20 years would be worth $106k; according to the American Association for Long-term Care Insurance, 70% of LTC insurance claims are first filed when the insured is at least 80 years old, so the OP investing the premiums until at least age 80 seems like a reasonable time frame. That's a pretty sizable amount to give up in return for $360k worth of protection.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:04 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:07 pm
bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.
But it doesn't exist.
It really should though.

Image
In other words, if today’s long-term care insurance functions more like a prepayment of long-term care expenses, with the majority of policies sold for little more than the average cumulative duration of claims (and thus producing little actual insurance leverage to protect against the risk of truly extreme events), then raising the deductible through longer elimination periods can shift long-term care insurance back to the true high-impact low-probability catastrophic events. Of course, this still means many/most people will need to save and create reserves to handle that elimination period – but on the plus side, much of it can likely be covered with all the long-term care insurance premiums they would no longer be paying!
https://www.kitces.com/blog/can-increas ... ing-again/
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by RetiredAL » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:54 pm

JPM wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:50 pm
As the Kansas doctor wrote, getting the insurer to pay legitimate claims can be challenging and it helps to have an attorney or to be able and willing to play hardball with the insurer. In health lines, insurers put a lot of effort into dodging payment of claims and will use creative dodges to get the insured to pay charges that the insurer has agreed to pay. Dodging payment in these lines is a game played for money by insurers.



My experience with my Dad this year with his LTC Insurance. To date, I've had no problems with Genworth. First with in-home care, including equipment purchases and repairs. Now that he is in assisted living, they contacted me this last Thurs saying that everything had been approved, but I have not yet seen the statement.

So far, I've found Genworth easy to work with. Much better than what I had expected before I started the process.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:27 pm

Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.

If you're healthy, you can probably get better benefits for less premium than this policy you're looking at. Keep shopping.



Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:30 pm

Watty wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:20 am
I don't have a good answer as to what to do but be sure to understand how the LTC premium can increase. There was a recent thread about this.

viewtopic.php?t=284562

Be sure to understand the possible increases for the specific policy that you are looking at since the possible increases may be different than for a policy that was written years ago.

Also see my post in this thread(as well as the rest of the thread).

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=286257&p=4655109#p4655109

One big piece of information that is missing from your post is how much various levels of LTC would cost in your area. It is important to understand that assisted living is much less expensive than a nursing home.

Since you live in an area where homes can be bought for $150K I would suspect that LTC might cost a lot less than the national averages so take that into account. See the link in my post for information about what it costs in different cities, or even better call up some local nursing homes to get some real numbers for what it costs in your area for different levels of care.


The company he's looking at has one of the best track records for keeping premiums stable.




Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:37 pm

bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
There's not much insurance in it. If you didn't buy the insurance, the $5,000 a year would probably grow to about $200,000 in 30 years. The risk isn't that you'll need $300,000 worth of care when you're in your late 80s or 90s. The risk is that something happens for which you'll need care for 10 or 20 years. A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.

You forgot to calculate the inflation protection. The OP's quote is for a policy that starts off with $360,000 of shared benefits. The inflation protection would increase it to over $650,000 of shared benefits in 20 years.




Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ralph124cf » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:41 pm

Kennedy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.
Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
My sample size of 1 dealing with LTC was that we had no troubles at all with it (older relatives). We may have been lucky. Note that I am not a big fan of LTC insurance given current pricing.

Home care still requires somebody to physically help a person. From my personal experience with people needing LTC (and lots of visits to LTC facilities), I can't imagine wearables making that big a difference. I'd be interested in more thoughts on how that would work.
KansasDoc's comment regarding wearables confused me as well. I think of wearables as devices like heart rate monitors, blood sugar monitors and the like. Don't most people in assisted living need someone to help them with toileting, bathing, dressing, eating and ambulating? As such, I don't see how a wearable device would keep someone out of AL.
What you are calling Assisted Living is really what a nursing home is. For assisted living you must be much more independent.

Ralph

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:49 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.

If you have home or auto that is just a 1 year time horizon

However ltc can be 10-15 years out and I don’t trust insurance companies to not change the rules of the game to hurt the insured.

My experience is they do everything to deny payment as they have been underwater due to the costs rising faster than premiums.

Just one physicians perspective.

In 2017, over 285,000 families received long-term care insurance benefits from 100 different insurance companies. My family was one of them.

See page 7, line C5, then pages 8 through 11
https://app.box.com/s/ug9rjm6hjw5t5cs911plcjffg8hlpghr


Most healthcare professionals have no experience filing long-term care insurance claims.
We had the home care agency that provided my MIL's care file the claim for us.
That agency (one of the largest national chains) files thousands of long-term care insurance claims every year.
They know exactly how to get it approved FAST.
All we had to do was sign a couple of HIPAA forms. They contacted the insurance company for us and the claim was approved in 3 weeks.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:54 pm

JPM wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:50 pm
Lots of things to consider when purchasing an LTCi policy. Might be worth an hour with an eldercare attorney to translate the insurance jargon into plain English and to explain what the tradeoffs are in terms of cost, coverage, restrictions, waiting periods, and COL adjustments. AS time has gone on, policies seem to have become more restrictive and more expensive. If you ever are so unfortunate as to have to collect, you made need the eldercare attorney to get the insurer to live up to the contract. As the Kansas doctor wrote, getting the insurer to pay legitimate claims can be challenging and it helps to have an attorney or to be able and willing to play hardball with the insurer. In health lines, insurers put a lot of effort into dodging payment of claims and will use creative dodges to get the insured to pay charges that the insurer has agreed to pay. Dodging payment in these lines is a game played for money by insurers.

Who picks the nursing home, you or the insurer? How much input do you have in that decision? Nursing home quality and staffing varies a great deal where I live. Some are excellent and expensive, some are adequate and reasonably priced, and some are just terrible and if not exactly cheap, are cheaper than the intermediate grades and might be what you end up with if you don't have right of refusal of such a choice made by the insurer.

In my neighborhood of three counties in Illinois and Wisconsin the base nursing home is $8000/month + meds with private pay alongside public aid patients who pay the public aid rate. Relatively poor staffing levels. The good homes are all private pay and $15,000 and up per month plus meds. Staffing is good, amenities are good, and they treat the people well. There are some intermediate tier ones that are $10-14,000/month. $5000/month would not get you a tent in the back yard in even the poor places here. By and large, staffing quality and quantity is what separates the tiers.

Assisted living is much less expensive but much more independence is expected of the residents there. There are some that will continue to care of residents who decline to a certain level, but beyond that level you have to find a nursing home or hire a live-in caretaker at the assisted living facility. Often the LTCI policy pays off only with a degree of disability that would disqualify some, and maybe most, people from Assisted Living facilities here.

Long-term care insurers don't pick the facility.
The policyholder does.
(most policyholders choose home care anyway).

When we filed my mother-in-law's claim, she started off receiving care at home. When it was time for her to move to an assisted-living facility, the insurer didn't tell us which one to choose. We chose a gorgeous facility, very close to our home. The insurer just needed a copy of the facility's license and the notes of my mother-in-law's care.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:58 pm

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.

Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables

However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
...and how exactly will a wearable bathe and dress you?
Will a wearable cook your meals for you?
Will the wearable help you on and off the toilet?

Wearables will help with medical care and monitoring.
But we're not talking about medical care, we're talking about help with every day activities like bathing, dressing, getting in and out of bed, getting on and off the toilet, etc...

Will the wearable give a warm smile and a compassionate touch?

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:01 am

KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:18 pm
+1 to JPM everyone needs a health care attorney to collect on LTC insurance

A good elder friendly attorney is worth every penny they bill you for this


However if you need a health care attorney to protect your insurance is that insurance worth buying?


No. Just use a large, home care agency. They have the experience and the financial incentive to get LTCi claims approved quickly.

We used Amada Senior Care.

I am NOT affiliated with them in anyway.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:18 am

ralph124cf wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:41 pm
Kennedy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.
Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
My sample size of 1 dealing with LTC was that we had no troubles at all with it (older relatives). We may have been lucky. Note that I am not a big fan of LTC insurance given current pricing.

Home care still requires somebody to physically help a person. From my personal experience with people needing LTC (and lots of visits to LTC facilities), I can't imagine wearables making that big a difference. I'd be interested in more thoughts on how that would work.
KansasDoc's comment regarding wearables confused me as well. I think of wearables as devices like heart rate monitors, blood sugar monitors and the like. Don't most people in assisted living need someone to help them with toileting, bathing, dressing, eating and ambulating? As such, I don't see how a wearable device would keep someone out of AL.
What you are calling Assisted Living is really what a nursing home is. For assisted living you must be much more independent.

Ralph
From what I've seen (visiting a lot of facilities) the range of "functioning" for residents in a typical assisted living facility is pretty wide.

Some residents are doing quite well. Others may have many issues, including needing lots of help with bathing, toileting, etc. This sort of help is well within the capability of good assisted living facilities. If they need somebody sitting by the bed 24x7, then yeah, a typical assisted living facility can't do that. Or if they routinely need trained nurse help.

So I do not agree that "For assisted living you must be much more independent." Some of the people in such communities have very limited capabilities.

Another thing I see a lot, and I wonder (without the slightest bit of hard evidence) if it contributes to occasional difficulties with LTC insurance. You have a person who has limited mobility -- they can't drive, and they use a walker. But they can get to the bathroom, feed themselves, etc. And they also have cognitive decline -- but it is not full-blown dementia; they can follow current events up to a point, etc. This person might not meet the criteria to trigger a LTC policy (though close), but they could no more live alone than they could play pro football.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:51 am

TN_Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:18 am
ralph124cf wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:41 pm
Kennedy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm

Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
My sample size of 1 dealing with LTC was that we had no troubles at all with it (older relatives). We may have been lucky. Note that I am not a big fan of LTC insurance given current pricing.

Home care still requires somebody to physically help a person. From my personal experience with people needing LTC (and lots of visits to LTC facilities), I can't imagine wearables making that big a difference. I'd be interested in more thoughts on how that would work.
KansasDoc's comment regarding wearables confused me as well. I think of wearables as devices like heart rate monitors, blood sugar monitors and the like. Don't most people in assisted living need someone to help them with toileting, bathing, dressing, eating and ambulating? As such, I don't see how a wearable device would keep someone out of AL.
What you are calling Assisted Living is really what a nursing home is. For assisted living you must be much more independent.

Ralph
From what I've seen (visiting a lot of facilities) the range of "functioning" for residents in a typical assisted living facility is pretty wide.

Some residents are doing quite well. Others may have many issues, including needing lots of help with bathing, toileting, etc. This sort of help is well within the capability of good assisted living facilities. If they need somebody sitting by the bed 24x7, then yeah, a typical assisted living facility can't do that. Or if they routinely need trained nurse help.

So I do not agree that "For assisted living you must be much more independent." Some of the people in such communities have very limited capabilities.
+1

The assisted living facility in which my mother-in-law resides will take care of her even if she needs help with all six ADL's. The only reason they would require her to leave (and move to a nursing home) would be if she needed two aides to get her into and out of a bed or chair. As long as one aide can transfer her, she can stay there, even if she needs help with all six ADL's.

My mother-in-law's assisted-living facility is the largest national chain of assisted-living facilities. They have over 100,000 residents.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ncbill » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:01 am

ralph124cf wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:41 pm
Kennedy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:54 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:45 pm
Personally I will never buy Ltc insurance.
Future models will allow more people to be cared for in the home with wearables
However some disease like dementia will still need long term care.
Thank you. Always good to hear from someone who has been involved in claim decisions.

Insurance companies are in business to collect premiums and, where possible, deny claims. I am not surprised at the denials. The insurance companies deny those least able to advocate for themselves, and time is on the insurance companies’ side.
My sample size of 1 dealing with LTC was that we had no troubles at all with it (older relatives). We may have been lucky. Note that I am not a big fan of LTC insurance given current pricing.

Home care still requires somebody to physically help a person. From my personal experience with people needing LTC (and lots of visits to LTC facilities), I can't imagine wearables making that big a difference. I'd be interested in more thoughts on how that would work.
KansasDoc's comment regarding wearables confused me as well. I think of wearables as devices like heart rate monitors, blood sugar monitors and the like. Don't most people in assisted living need someone to help them with toileting, bathing, dressing, eating and ambulating? As such, I don't see how a wearable device would keep someone out of AL.
What you are calling Assisted Living is really what a nursing home is. For assisted living you must be much more independent.

Ralph
Depends on state law & what a facility is willing to do.

10+ years ago when my mom was dying state law here required residents to be evaluated annually, and anyone needing more than minimal help had to go to a skilled nursing facility.

Which was IMHO ridiculous since she only needed bathing/dressing/feeding, no actual "medical" needs (her health care POA only permitted palliative care)

Recently I was caregiver for another relative bedridden with terminal cancer & fortunately laws have changed so she was able to stay in a private room at a nearby assisted living facility for half the price a shared room at a nursing home would have cost, even though she had to be bathed/changed as well (too weak to get out of bed)

That assisted living facility indicated they were now allowed to take nearly anyone, the main regulatory prohibitions being those on a ventilator or who needed continuous IV therapy.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by krafty81 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:46 pm

delamer wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:15 pm
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:12 pm
KansasDoc wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:15 pm
A physician perspective here:

From the Midwest where Ltc is about $100k per year

In the past 5 years I have had more denials for patients for claims filed for ltc insurance.
Just curious if you were willing to share more information? Is this for home care or resident assisted living? Is it a debate with the insurer about degrees of meeting ADLs?

I can certainly see that some people (or their families) who could be in independent living might try to justify assisted living to get immediate financial benefit from the LTCI.
In my experience, those people in independent living in a CCRC will do anything possible to avoid going into assisted living.
+1. Seeing that now with my Dad.

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Colormeado
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Colormeado » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:09 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:50 pm
bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
There's not much insurance in it. If you didn't buy the insurance, the $5,000 a year would probably grow to about $200,000 in 30 years. The risk isn't that you'll need $300,000 worth of care when you're in your late 80s or 90s. The risk is that something happens for which you'll need care for 10 or 20 years. A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.
My thoughts are similar.

A nursing home runs about $100k annually in our area. If the cost for the OP is similar, that means they would still be out of pocket $40k annually. At least it's unlikely that they'll need more than the combined 6 years of care funded at that level.

The OP is, IMHO, is probably able to self-insure LTC. If either spouse could live on the survivor's benefit of $45k plus half of their portfolio (e.g. assuming that up to half of their portfolio potentially went to fund LTC, which is very unlikely), then self-insuring is probably best.

At a 4% return, $3,584 invested annually for 20 years would be worth $106k; according to the American Association for Long-term Care Insurance, 70% of LTC insurance claims are first filed when the insured is at least 80 years old, so the OP investing the premiums until at least age 80 seems like a reasonable time frame. That's a pretty sizable amount to give up in return for $360k worth of protection.
Do others think it is reasonable for us to consider self-insuring for long-term care? We each have 4-5 more years of work, so we could get to an asset level of $1.2 million with no debt. If you do not feel that is adequate, how much more do you think is required? More importantly what level of liquid assets do you think is required? Since we each will have pensions, if the right options are chosen, the surviving spouse could have closer to $55,000 per year. The COLAs are very low however.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm

Colormeado wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:09 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:50 pm
bsteiner wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 am
There's not much insurance in it. If you didn't buy the insurance, the $5,000 a year would probably grow to about $200,000 in 30 years. The risk isn't that you'll need $300,000 worth of care when you're in your late 80s or 90s. The risk is that something happens for which you'll need care for 10 or 20 years. A better policy would be one where you paid the first 3 years, or the first $300,000, and the insurance company paid everything after that.
My thoughts are similar.

A nursing home runs about $100k annually in our area. If the cost for the OP is similar, that means they would still be out of pocket $40k annually. At least it's unlikely that they'll need more than the combined 6 years of care funded at that level.

The OP is, IMHO, is probably able to self-insure LTC. If either spouse could live on the survivor's benefit of $45k plus half of their portfolio (e.g. assuming that up to half of their portfolio potentially went to fund LTC, which is very unlikely), then self-insuring is probably best.

At a 4% return, $3,584 invested annually for 20 years would be worth $106k; according to the American Association for Long-term Care Insurance, 70% of LTC insurance claims are first filed when the insured is at least 80 years old, so the OP investing the premiums until at least age 80 seems like a reasonable time frame. That's a pretty sizable amount to give up in return for $360k worth of protection.
Do others think it is reasonable for us to consider self-insuring for long-term care? We each have 4-5 more years of work, so we could get to an asset level of $1.2 million with no debt. If you do not feel that is adequate, how much more do you think is required? More importantly what level of liquid assets do you think is required? Since we each will have pensions, if the right options are chosen, the surviving spouse could have closer to $55,000 per year. The COLAs are very low however.
Would $55k be enough for the surviving spouse? Does that include SS survivor's benefit? Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:59 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.
"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I see little to be gained in injecting pure emotion into what can and should be a rational decision.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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