Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

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protagonist
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by protagonist » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:20 pm

ohai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:27 am

1) How can 50% of marriages end in divorce? Are 50% of people you know divorced?
I don't know the personal histories of all the people I know. But thinking of my eight best friends (all in their 50s- early 70s), four have been divorced in the past, one has been widowed and recently remarried, two have never been divorced and have had long marriages (both married young), and one was never married but has lived as a couple with the same woman for many decades. So yes, over 50% of those who have married have been divorced.
2) For example, if you are extremely poor, you are likely to be unhappy in marriage in general and more likely to divorce.
The richest countries in the world also tend to have the highest divorce:marriage ratios- much more than the very poor ones. There may be other cultural and political reasons for this in some cases, but the numbers hardly support your statement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography

protagonist
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by protagonist » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:34 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:23 pm

But get married later in life (like 28-35) and your chances of divorce were much lower... like 35% for high-school education, and 25% for college educated.
Yet I have read that second marriages have a higher rate of failure than first marriages (about 2/3 fail), and third marriages fail more than second marriages (about 3/4 fail). Ah, here is a reference: https://www.wevorce.com/blog/why-do-sec ... ages-fail/ Perhaps your stats are for first marriages.

Even so, if your figures are correct....as an older, college educated investor, if you were going to invest in a product where you knew you had a 25% chance of losing half your investment (not to mention alimony, child custody, legal fees, agita, etc.), how willing would you be to put all your assets in that product?

(Of course, this being a financial site, I am only considering the financial angle).
Last edited by protagonist on Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ohai
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by ohai » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:38 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:20 pm
ohai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:27 am

1) How can 50% of marriages end in divorce? Are 50% of people you know divorced?
I don't know the personal histories of all the people I know. But thinking of my eight best friends (all in their 50s- early 70s), four have been divorced in the past, one has been widowed and recently remarried, two have never been divorced and have had long marriages (both married young), and one was never married but has lived as a couple with the same woman for many decades. So yes, over 50% of those who have married have been divorced.
2) For example, if you are extremely poor, you are likely to be unhappy in marriage in general and more likely to divorce.
The richest countries in the world also tend to have the highest divorce:marriage ratios- much more than the very poor ones. There may be other cultural and political reasons for this in some cases, but the numbers hardly support your statement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography
Cannot really compare things like this across countries though. First, there are too many extra variables (divorce is not even legal in the Philippines, for instance). Second, wealth tends to be measured in the context of your own society. $20k is poverty line in the US, but is relatively well off in many countries.

Busdrvr
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Busdrvr » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:44 pm

smitcat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 pm
Busdrvr wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:41 am
smitcat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:32 am
visualguy wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:07 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:52 am


Regarding this point, I believe that a lot of folks have talked past each other regarding the future state of SS. Those that say that SS will go 'bankrupt' are, in a way, accurate. Bankruptcy does not mean an absence of income; it means that the entity is not capable of meeting it's financial obligations. The SS trust fund will be exhausted by around 2035, and at that point, they will be incapable of paying the stated benefits (i.e. bankrupt). However, they will still have funds coming in, and these will be adequate to pay around 75% of stated benefits. So the folks saying that SS will still be around are correct as well.


Right, but this raises the question of whether it will be there for a particular individual and to what extent, and the answer is unknown because it depends on what, if anything, will change in how SS is managed. Will you get the full amount because SS taxes will be increased? Will you get 75%? Will you get even less or nothing because of means/income testing? Who knows, so it's hard to plan, and many here seem to plan with no SS or reduced SS to be conservative.
SS has indeed faced this issue before and was 'corrected' rather painlessly. I would look to the past for credible information on the possibilities in the future. Alternatively you can also research the 12 or so methods to reset SS in the future that can be utilized individually or in sets>
In summary there exists very little reason to believe this will be a large future problem.
https://moneyfortherestofus.com/mny153- ... -bankrupt/

An excellent primer from a favorite podcast of mine done by David Stein.

FWIW - I suggested folks do their own research as that would not violate the forum policy regarding politics and the "future of SS" types of discussions.
Typically posting links in this manner and/or with these subjective views will get the thread locked and/or your post removed.
Agreed on the idea that folks do their own research on any topic.

FWIW...the link provided is completely apolitical.

protagonist
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by protagonist » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:47 pm

politely wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:52 pm
Most people I know don't have a retirement goal,

I'm 67. I retired at 55. I didn't have a retirement goal. Things at work changed and I just thought it would be a good time to retire (as it happens, right before the financial crash).

The problem with setting "goals" is that it is a double edged sword.
Retire with too little too early and you risk running out of money before you die.
Retire with too much too late and you risk losing your health or your life before you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Most retirees I know seem pretty happy being retired and have no regrets. Most of them are not "rich". I question how many set "goals". If you are just vaguely sensible, things usually work out in the long run. And sometimes they don't, no matter what you do.
Last edited by protagonist on Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smitcat
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by smitcat » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:00 pm

Busdrvr wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:44 pm
smitcat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 pm
Busdrvr wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:41 am
smitcat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:32 am
visualguy wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:07 am




Right, but this raises the question of whether it will be there for a particular individual and to what extent, and the answer is unknown because it depends on what, if anything, will change in how SS is managed. Will you get the full amount because SS taxes will be increased? Will you get 75%? Will you get even less or nothing because of means/income testing? Who knows, so it's hard to plan, and many here seem to plan with no SS or reduced SS to be conservative.
SS has indeed faced this issue before and was 'corrected' rather painlessly. I would look to the past for credible information on the possibilities in the future. Alternatively you can also research the 12 or so methods to reset SS in the future that can be utilized individually or in sets>
In summary there exists very little reason to believe this will be a large future problem.
https://moneyfortherestofus.com/mny153- ... -bankrupt/

An excellent primer from a favorite podcast of mine done by David Stein.

FWIW - I suggested folks do their own research as that would not violate the forum policy regarding politics and the "future of SS" types of discussions.
Typically posting links in this manner and/or with these subjective views will get the thread locked and/or your post removed.
Agreed on the idea that folks do their own research on any topic.

FWIW...the link provided is completely apolitical.
It is a naked link....

protagonist
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by protagonist » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:01 pm

ohai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:38 pm
protagonist wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:20 pm
ohai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:27 am

1) How can 50% of marriages end in divorce? Are 50% of people you know divorced?
I don't know the personal histories of all the people I know. But thinking of my eight best friends (all in their 50s- early 70s), four have been divorced in the past, one has been widowed and recently remarried, two have never been divorced and have had long marriages (both married young), and one was never married but has lived as a couple with the same woman for many decades. So yes, over 50% of those who have married have been divorced.
2) For example, if you are extremely poor, you are likely to be unhappy in marriage in general and more likely to divorce.
The richest countries in the world also tend to have the highest divorce:marriage ratios- much more than the very poor ones. There may be other cultural and political reasons for this in some cases, but the numbers hardly support your statement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography
Cannot really compare things like this across countries though. First, there are too many extra variables (divorce is not even legal in the Philippines, for instance). Second, wealth tends to be measured in the context of your own society. $20k is poverty line in the US, but is relatively well off in many countries.
I agree with you. There are many variables involved. I just question your assertion that if you are extremely poor you are likely to be unhappy in marriage. You may be right about that. Poverty causes stress and stress can't be healthy in marriage. But my own experience, having lived extensively among poor people in different countries, would not bring me to the same conclusion.

smitcat
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by smitcat » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:18 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:47 pm
politely wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:52 pm
Most people I know don't have a retirement goal,

I'm 67. I retired at 55. I didn't have a retirement goal. Things at work changed and I just thought it would be a good time to retire (as it happens, right before the financial crash).

The problem with setting "goals" is that it is a double edged sword.
Retire with too little too early and you risk running out of money before you die.
Retire with too much too late and you risk losing your health or your life before you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Most retirees I know seem pretty happy being retired and have no regrets. Most of them are not "rich". I question how many set "goals". If you are just vaguely sensible, things usually work out in the long run. And sometimes they don't, no matter what you do.
"Retire with too much too late and you risk losing your health or your life before you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor."
Or figure out a method to not wait to do things until you have 'fully' retired.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by MindBogler » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:25 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:07 pm
I was just poking fun at the fact that there are people who do work they hate, just for the money. That sounds like a terrible way to pass a big part of your life.
Working to live, not living to work. For many work is a means to an end and nothing more. I do work I no longer enjoy because the alternative would require too many years to reach my goals.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by mariezzz » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:26 pm

On average, Americans believe they need $1.7 million to retire, according to a recent survey from Charles Schwab, which looked at 1,000 401(k) plan participants nationwide
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... topstories

It's actually 'Americans with 401ks at Charles Schwab, who responded to a survey' believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire'

There's also this advice: https://www.bankrate.com/retirement/how ... etirement/ I assume they mean 'full retirement age'.
Fidelity recommends certain levels of retirement savings as you age. For instance, at age 30 you should have at least your annual salary saved. When you turn 40, you should have three times your salary. And at age 50, you should have six times what you earn annually saved for retirement. By the time you turn 60, the goal is to have eight times your salary saved – and it should reach 10 times your salary by age 67.

Merrill lists saving 12 times your salary before retiring as one of its rules of thumb.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:36 pm

MindBogler wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:25 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:07 pm
I was just poking fun at the fact that there are people who do work they hate, just for the money. That sounds like a terrible way to pass a big part of your life.
Working to live, not living to work. For many work is a means to an end and nothing more. I do work I no longer enjoy because the alternative would require too many years to reach my goals.
That makes me sad but I hope you're able to retire soon so you can spend at least a good chunk of your life doing something you enjoy and find worthwhile.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:32 pm

DoctorPhysics wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:42 am
DoctorPhysics wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:44 am
2.5 mil @ at 4% withdraw rate is 100k/year, 3% withdraw is 75k/year.

I think 1.7 mil is too low, I am in a VHCOL area.
What age are you retiring? Have you viewed the Social Security actuarial tables of longevity? Most people I know and relatives are included in that, even with advances in modern medicine are not making it past 90 or 91. I think you are shortchanging yourself by limiting your withdrawal rate to 4%. If you are retiring with 2.5 million today, that plus social security puts you in the top 5-10% of retirees.
Sure I'll bite, if I retire at 65 with 2.5 mil (in today's dollars), the longevity tables show 20 +/- 2 years of retirement, at 4% withdraw, this is 2 mil in principal total (not including any social security), leaving 500k for risks like market downturns, or if I live longer...

Plus, I do not plan on laying around the old neighborhood, I'd like to travel more, that's the hope.

If I manage to FIRE sooner as in somehow I hit my target 2.5m earlier say 55, then there are variables (medical, family, social security etc) I need to account for to make sure I can really FIRE in a VHCOL or consider moving to a LCOL to take advantage.

Honestly, I'm am still young, and still accumulating for at least 25-30 more years. This 2.5 mil seems like a solid number to work for as a goal with some buffer for risk. What do you think?
If you are still accumulating for another 25-30 years, then the number you provide up above is a solid number as a goal. If you discount your ending portfolio value of 2.5 million at 25 years to today's dollars, it's the equivalent @ 3% inflation (they say headline inflation is lower at 2%) the portfolio would be worth $1.195 million ($1.523 million @ 2% inflation). At 30 years, $2.5 million discounted back at 3% inflation is valued at $1.030 million ($1.381 million @ 2% inflation).
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by TallBoy29er » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:08 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:47 pm
politely wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:52 pm
Most people I know don't have a retirement goal,

I'm 67. I retired at 55. I didn't have a retirement goal. Things at work changed and I just thought it would be a good time to retire (as it happens, right before the financial crash).

The problem with setting "goals" is that it is a double edged sword.
Retire with too little too early and you risk running out of money before you die.
Retire with too much too late and you risk losing your health or your life before you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Most retirees I know seem pretty happy being retired and have no regrets. Most of them are not "rich". I question how many set "goals". If you are just vaguely sensible, things usually work out in the long run. And sometimes they don't, no matter what you do.

Wise words. Thank you.

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Portfolio7
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Portfolio7 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:23 pm

goodenyou wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:19 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:10 pm
H-Town wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:47 pm
H-Town wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:36 pm
Plus, you should account for divorce as well, which the odds sitting at 30-50% (?). If you get to $1.7M, suddenly the divorce settlement left you with 850k. I guess you can survive no matter what, but still not the "riding into the sunset scene" you wanted all along.
Divorce at an older age where you've accumulated $1.7 million together is not 30%-50%.
I'm curious what's the % of divorce when you're already financially secured and more mature. I imagine it would be lower than 30-50%... On the other hand, we still have Bezos head case not too long ago.
Well I don't know about older people, but I did read a study once that said age and education were two big variables, with age being the biggest.

For instance, get married young (like 18-24) and your chances of divorce later on were very high.. like 60% for high-school education, 50% for college educated.

But get married later in life (like 28-35) and your chances of divorce were much lower... like 35% for high-school education, and 25% for college educated.

I'm guessing after 20+ years of marriage, the chances are even lower.
The divorce rate is rising fastest in older people. "Silver-Splitting" is on the rise.

https://www.newser.com/story/276838/gra ... -rise.html
True, but the rate is still perhaps a third of young married couples, depending on precisely how you slice it. The increase is happening off a very low base.
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Artsdoctor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:27 pm

mtmingus wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:15 am
What's the magic number for retirement savings? $1.7 million, according to a survey from Charles Schwab.

How many of here are retired, or thinking of retiring, near this #?
Assuming no pension and excluding paid for main residences in the numbers.
First of all, log on to Schwab and read the study.

The numbers are very misleading. One half of the respondents said that they'd need under $1M in retirement.

The respondents were only 401k holders. While 401k's are important for many, if you didn't have a 401k, you weren't part of the study.

There's a lot more in the study that the headlines brushed over. There are plenty of people who will do just fine with well under $1.7M but just remember that it's in Schwab's best interest to get people to save as much as possible because that's how they make their money.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by vitaflo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:39 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:19 pm
Indeed it is, but sadly that's life on planet Earth for a lot of people right now. I doubt that driving a garbage truck, working at a sanitation facility, or scrubbing toilets is done by many because they love the work.
When I was in high school, during my AP Calculus class is when the garbage man would come to the school. We would all glance out the window and watch him do his thing. It got to the point where the teacher would halt class and let us go to the window to watch the garbage man. We thought he was so cool, what a life he was living! He got to be outside in the sun, not stuck indoors in a classroom. He got to drive a big truck, didn't have a boss breathing down his neck telling him what to do, and he could listen to music all day! And he got paid to do all of this! He was the envy of all of us in that Calculus class I tell ya.

Some days I'm still envious of him.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by marielake » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:41 pm

AtlasShrugged? wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:45 am
Let's try to make this more actionable. That 1.7MM number might be what they think they need, but I think ignores objective reality. The objective reality is that the overwhelming majority of people will retire with far less than 1.7MM. It is this group I would like the Bogleheads to address - those whose retirement balances are not 1.7MM (or a multiple thereof), but much lower. What are things they can do to materially help themselves?

Yes, most people already know the 'Boglehead Trinity': Save more, Cut expense, Work longer. We can dispense with these three. Heard that a million times (and said it often enough). I am much more interested in hearing from Retirees who retired with much less than 1.7MM, and read what they actually did, and the success (or failure).
I retired at 65. $1.7M seems high to me. I'm single, don't have that level of savings and don't need it. Pension and social security cover my expenses. There was even excess so I bought a second home. My retirement funds provide for a nice cushion, but I don't foresee needing it in near future. In terms of getting ready for retirement, I maxed out 403b about 10 years ahead of retirement. As time got closer, I started carefully budgeting/monitoring spending, jacked up taxable savings, moved from HCOL to LCOL area and paid off all credit cards. I have been doing some per diem work and using income for pocket change--helped to have some unique skills.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by student » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:12 pm

marielake wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:41 pm
AtlasShrugged? wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:45 am
Let's try to make this more actionable. That 1.7MM number might be what they think they need, but I think ignores objective reality. The objective reality is that the overwhelming majority of people will retire with far less than 1.7MM. It is this group I would like the Bogleheads to address - those whose retirement balances are not 1.7MM (or a multiple thereof), but much lower. What are things they can do to materially help themselves?

Yes, most people already know the 'Boglehead Trinity': Save more, Cut expense, Work longer. We can dispense with these three. Heard that a million times (and said it often enough). I am much more interested in hearing from Retirees who retired with much less than 1.7MM, and read what they actually did, and the success (or failure).
I retired at 65. $1.7M seems high to me. I'm single, don't have that level of savings and don't need it. Pension and social security cover my expenses. There was even excess so I bought a second home. My retirement funds provide for a nice cushion, but I don't foresee needing it in near future. In terms of getting ready for retirement, I maxed out 403b about 10 years ahead of retirement. As time got closer, I started carefully budgeting/monitoring spending, jacked up taxable savings, moved from HCOL to LCOL area and paid off all credit cards. I have been doing some per diem work and using income for pocket change--helped to have some unique skills.
Since the study was based on people with 401k at Schwab, I assume most do not have a pension and so they will need more from other sources.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by HomerJ » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:36 pm

TravelforFun wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:02 am
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:21 am
mtmingus wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:15 am
What's the magic number for retirement savings? $1.7 million, according to a survey from Charles Schwab.

How many of here are retired, or thinking of retiring, near this #?
Assuming no pension and excluding paid for main residences in the numbers.
Seems a bit high.

4% of $1.7 million is $68,000

That's a lot of money if you have a paid off house. And we're not including Social Security.

I doubt the "average" American needs that much.

Might be more reasonable if you are talking about the "average" top 20% of Americans who respond to Charles Schwab surveys.

It's reasonable for me. We're shooting for about that much in retirement, with a paid off house.
High or low are all depend on your expenses and what you think is a SWR. At 3%, it's $51K a year. Add social security and other income and subtract out the taxes, you'd get the net annual income. If you could live on that net income, then $1.7 million would be sufficient; Otherwise, it wouldn't be.

TravelforFun
High or low for the AVERAGE American depends on the expenses of the AVERAGE American.

And $68,000 or even $51,000 with Social Security is a lot of money for the AVERAGE American.

Which is what the article was supposedly about.

I was just stating that number seemed way too high for the average American, not way too high for me (Seems about right for me, but that wasn't my main point).
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by AerialWombat » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:53 am
My next career will be driving a big excavator. I talked to a patient in the ED the other day who did that. Basically all he needed was a CDL and on the job training. Totally doable as an encore career.
...and some of us seriously consider med school (or at least PA) for our later years. Oh, the irony. :)
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:10 pm

AerialWombat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:53 am
My next career will be driving a big excavator. I talked to a patient in the ED the other day who did that. Basically all he needed was a CDL and on the job training. Totally doable as an encore career.
...and some of us seriously consider med school (or at least PA) for our later years. Oh, the irony. :)
Medicine isn't a great encore career. Lots of risk to lose it all and a long expensive training period that takes many years to recoup. But I know lots of people who have gone to med school at 35-40. That's a little early for an encore career in my book.
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by AerialWombat » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:14 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:10 pm
AerialWombat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:53 am
My next career will be driving a big excavator. I talked to a patient in the ED the other day who did that. Basically all he needed was a CDL and on the job training. Totally doable as an encore career.
...and some of us seriously consider med school (or at least PA) for our later years. Oh, the irony. :)
Medicine isn't a great encore career. Lots of risk to lose it all and a long expensive training period that takes many years to recoup. But I know lots of people who have gone to med school at 35-40. That's a little early for an encore career in my book.
I’ve seen a few people in their late 50’s that go to med school not for career purposes, but for self-edification or overseas volunteer purposes.
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:15 pm

AerialWombat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:14 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:10 pm
AerialWombat wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:53 am
My next career will be driving a big excavator. I talked to a patient in the ED the other day who did that. Basically all he needed was a CDL and on the job training. Totally doable as an encore career.
...and some of us seriously consider med school (or at least PA) for our later years. Oh, the irony. :)
Medicine isn't a great encore career. Lots of risk to lose it all and a long expensive training period that takes many years to recoup. But I know lots of people who have gone to med school at 35-40. That's a little early for an encore career in my book.
I’ve seen a few people in their late 50’s that go to med school not for career purposes, but for self-edification or overseas volunteer purposes.
Pretty expensive and painful self-edification if you include residency.

And I would argue you have no business volunteering overseas if you don't at least practice for a few years after residency.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by AerialWombat » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:15 pm

Pretty expensive and painful self-edification if you include residency.
For somebody with an extra zero tacked on to the $1.7 million in question, or more, it’s probably an easier bill to swallow. :shock:

Lacking such resources, I’d personally be more in the volunteer EMT-B category. :mrgreen:
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by FOGU » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:52 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:28 am
desihorn wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:25 am
I am just glad to see that there are "normal" people here. The threads with "I have $20M and I don't know if that is enough.." freak me out.
I experience a mixture of disgust and laughter at those threads, but the source of those folks angst appears to be concern about maintaining their, relatively speaking, very expensive lifestyle. They often live in VHCOL areas, spend with little concern, and the thought of having an income 'only' something like 5 times that of the median household is beyond their comprehension.
As has been discussed in this forum before, fueling up a 400-foot yacht ain't cheap.
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Smoke » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:03 am

The key words here are "Believe" and "Need"
I've been retired for 15 yrs now and don't have anywhere near that much and have never touched what I have saved.
All depends on what expectations there are with lifestyle in retirement.
Bogleheads aside, I have always found MOST Americans totally ignorant about saving, investing, for the future.
So what "they" believe has no basis in reality.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I am not going to engage in.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by nisiprius » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:40 am

This American doesn't believe that because we retired with less than that. (I did some reality checks and found that a very conservative withdrawal rate would put us at the median family income for the town we live in, so I figured that would probably feel OK about it).
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by neilpilot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 am

student wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Since the study was based on people with 401k at Schwab, I assume most do not have a pension and so they will need more from other sources.

My DW had a 401k at Vanguard, but also a pension. I had a 401k at Fidelity and had a pension as well. Would 401k investors at Schwab be any different?

student
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by student » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 am

neilpilot wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 am
student wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Since the study was based on people with 401k at Schwab, I assume most do not have a pension and so they will need more from other sources.

My DW had a 401k at Vanguard, but also a pension. I had a 401k at Fidelity and had a pension as well. Would 401k investors at Schwab be any different?
I am sure some have both pension and 401k. However, based on the data that I am aware of, most private sector workers do not have access to pension. Hence my statement on most do not have a pension. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/51-pe ... h-2018.htm "In March 2018, 51 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined contribution retirement plans through their employer. An additional 13 percent had access to both defined benefit and defined contribution retirement plans at their workplace, while 4 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined benefit retirement plans." Congratulations to your DW on having both 401k and a pension.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by delamer » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 am

student wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 am
neilpilot wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 am
student wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Since the study was based on people with 401k at Schwab, I assume most do not have a pension and so they will need more from other sources.

My DW had a 401k at Vanguard, but also a pension. I had a 401k at Fidelity and had a pension as well. Would 401k investors at Schwab be any different?
I am sure some have both pension and 401k. However, based on the data that I am aware of, most private sector workers do not have access to pension. Hence my statement on most do not have a pension. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/51-pe ... h-2018.htm "In March 2018, 51 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined contribution retirement plans through their employer. An additional 13 percent had access to both defined benefit and defined contribution retirement plans at their workplace, while 4 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined benefit retirement plans." Congratulations to your DW on having both 401k and a pension.
Government (federal, state, local) workers are much more likely to have a defined benefit pension than private sector workers, but they make up less than 20% of the workforce. Secondary/elementary school teachers are by far the biggest subcategory, in cas you were wondering. :)

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by student » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:57 am

delamer wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 am
student wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 am
neilpilot wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 am
student wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Since the study was based on people with 401k at Schwab, I assume most do not have a pension and so they will need more from other sources.

My DW had a 401k at Vanguard, but also a pension. I had a 401k at Fidelity and had a pension as well. Would 401k investors at Schwab be any different?
I am sure some have both pension and 401k. However, based on the data that I am aware of, most private sector workers do not have access to pension. Hence my statement on most do not have a pension. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/51-pe ... h-2018.htm "In March 2018, 51 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined contribution retirement plans through their employer. An additional 13 percent had access to both defined benefit and defined contribution retirement plans at their workplace, while 4 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined benefit retirement plans." Congratulations to your DW on having both 401k and a pension.
Government (federal, state, local) workers are much more likely to have a defined benefit pension than private sector workers, but they make up less than 20% of the workforce. Secondary/elementary school teachers are by far the biggest subcategory, in cas you were wondering. :)
I understand that. I assume that the survey at Schwab did not cover government workers as they have TSP rather than 401k. It is my understanding that public school teachers have 403b. So I concluded that this survey did not cover them. Basically, what I am saying is that since the survey covered people with 401k at Schwab, I concluded that they are private sector workers and most of them do not have pensions.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by delamer » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:05 am

student wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:57 am
delamer wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 am
student wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 am
neilpilot wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 am
student wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Since the study was based on people with 401k at Schwab, I assume most do not have a pension and so they will need more from other sources.

My DW had a 401k at Vanguard, but also a pension. I had a 401k at Fidelity and had a pension as well. Would 401k investors at Schwab be any different?
I am sure some have both pension and 401k. However, based on the data that I am aware of, most private sector workers do not have access to pension. Hence my statement on most do not have a pension. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/51-pe ... h-2018.htm "In March 2018, 51 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined contribution retirement plans through their employer. An additional 13 percent had access to both defined benefit and defined contribution retirement plans at their workplace, while 4 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined benefit retirement plans." Congratulations to your DW on having both 401k and a pension.
Government (federal, state, local) workers are much more likely to have a defined benefit pension than private sector workers, but they make up less than 20% of the workforce. Secondary/elementary school teachers are by far the biggest subcategory, in cas you were wondering. :)
I understand that. I assume that the survey at Schwab did not cover government workers as they have TSP rather than 401k. It is my understanding that public school teachers have 403b. So I concluded that this survey did not cover them. Basically, what I am saying is that since the survey covered people with 401k at Schwab, I concluded that they are private sector workers and most of them do not have pensions.
All true.

I was just making a general point about the prevalence of pensions because they are key to making good decisions about saving for retirement.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by student » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:08 pm

delamer wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:05 am
student wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:57 am
delamer wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 am
student wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 am
neilpilot wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:54 am


My DW had a 401k at Vanguard, but also a pension. I had a 401k at Fidelity and had a pension as well. Would 401k investors at Schwab be any different?
I am sure some have both pension and 401k. However, based on the data that I am aware of, most private sector workers do not have access to pension. Hence my statement on most do not have a pension. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/51-pe ... h-2018.htm "In March 2018, 51 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined contribution retirement plans through their employer. An additional 13 percent had access to both defined benefit and defined contribution retirement plans at their workplace, while 4 percent of private industry workers had access to only defined benefit retirement plans." Congratulations to your DW on having both 401k and a pension.
Government (federal, state, local) workers are much more likely to have a defined benefit pension than private sector workers, but they make up less than 20% of the workforce. Secondary/elementary school teachers are by far the biggest subcategory, in cas you were wondering. :)
I understand that. I assume that the survey at Schwab did not cover government workers as they have TSP rather than 401k. It is my understanding that public school teachers have 403b. So I concluded that this survey did not cover them. Basically, what I am saying is that since the survey covered people with 401k at Schwab, I concluded that they are private sector workers and most of them do not have pensions.
All true.

I was just making a general point about the prevalence of pensions because they are key to making good decisions about saving for retirement.
Thanks for the clarifications.

Nowizard
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Nowizard » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:03 pm

Meaningless unless documented relative to COL in different areas. Of more interest would be statistics on responses that also included average income levels during working years of the respondents.

Tim

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by WhiteMaxima » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:14 pm

It's totally laughable. People could retire on much less or much more.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by RetireBy55 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:18 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:14 pm
It's totally laughable. People could retire on much less or much more.
Depends on when you retire (for me, 55), your expenses, other sources of income (no pensions in our household) and cost for medical (~$20K+ for us yearly) through age 65.

$1.7M for many is not unrealistic or excessive whatsoever..at a 4% SWR, that's only $68K/yr, which puts you pretty much in the middle of average American household incomes. And as we all know, you are generally not living large at $68K/yr. Now, if you're pulling SS at FRA or later, have had high average earnings most of your professional life and are at or close to maxing out SS, then you + a spouse who also is at or near max SS can bring in that just from SS - in which case you may in fact, not need $1.7M. But if you retire in your mid 50s, have extremely costly HC premiums and deductibles (like we do), and are in an "average" or heaven forbid, high COL area, that's not an excessive number in my experience..unless you want to spend down at least $700K ($70K/yr over 10+ years ER) and wind up with a much smaller kitty once you hit Medicare age..

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by tesuzuki2002 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:30 pm

I would be comfortable on that amount. I have been thinking more and more about what this number is for me... I'm 37, very aware I have a lot of life to live and more to offer to the world.

Retire is relative for me as I have a few side hustles I can pick up and put down at my leisure which working maybe 450 hours a year I can earn around $30K and I LOVE the work.

I can likely get by and save a little on this income or start converting a lot of Per-tax retirement into ROTH with minimal taxes.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by tesuzuki2002 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:53 pm

WhiteMaxima wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:14 pm
It's totally laughable. People could retire on much less or much more.
:P :P :P

firebirdparts
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by firebirdparts » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:22 am

The concept of average is really struggling today! :D

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by scorcher31 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:24 pm

RetireBy55 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:18 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:14 pm
It's totally laughable. People could retire on much less or much more.
Depends on when you retire (for me, 55), your expenses, other sources of income (no pensions in our household) and cost for medical (~$20K+ for us yearly) through age 65.

$1.7M for many is not unrealistic or excessive whatsoever..at a 4% SWR, that's only $68K/yr, which puts you pretty much in the middle of average American household incomes. And as we all know, you are generally not living large at $68K/yr. Now, if you're pulling SS at FRA or later, have had high average earnings most of your professional life and are at or close to maxing out SS, then you + a spouse who also is at or near max SS can bring in that just from SS - in which case you may in fact, not need $1.7M. But if you retire in your mid 50s, have extremely costly HC premiums and deductibles (like we do), and are in an "average" or heaven forbid, high COL area, that's not an excessive number in my experience..unless you want to spend down at least $700K ($70K/yr over 10+ years ER) and wind up with a much smaller kitty once you hit Medicare age..
Most Americans are not attempting to retire at 55, and absolutely are counting on social security. They are not concerned about 4% SWR and if they are lucky have a few 100k tucked away when they retire. I also think in many MCOL areas if you have a paid off mortgage, cars and debt (which most peopel don't), 68k gives you a pretty luxurious life provided you are getting medicare or ACA.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 pm

scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:24 pm
I also think in many MCOL areas if you have a paid off mortgage, cars and debt (which most peopel don't), 68k gives you a pretty luxurious life provided you are getting medicare or ACA.
Justin at www.rootofgood.com has three children, and they have spent under $40k annually for the last six years or so. He's a FIRE guy. And they do quite a lot of traveling too. Having no mortgage and getting ACA insurance are big helps to them.
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by scorcher31 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:40 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 pm
scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:24 pm
I also think in many MCOL areas if you have a paid off mortgage, cars and debt (which most peopel don't), 68k gives you a pretty luxurious life provided you are getting medicare or ACA.
Justin at www.rootofgood.com has three children, and they have spent under $40k annually for the last six years or so. He's a FIRE guy. And they do quite a lot of traveling too. Having no mortgage and getting ACA insurance are big helps to them.
Yeah actually I was going to say we live in a HCOL area (not VHCOL), and if I don't include my Mortgage, daycare, savings, and income/payroll tax (all gone in retirement) only spend about 40k-45k per year. We stay at nice hotels, like nice wine and whiskey, I consider everything pretty cushy.

BTW, just noticed the Schwab study for this post only had 1,000 participants. I'm pretty sure that is not going to adequately represent America.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Mickey7 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:51 pm

$1.7 million to retire - gulp, I better start stocking up on Alpo!

Really, I mean REALLY. There are so many variables in this article starting with the core samplers that it cannot be considered a one shoe fits all.

Listen we all know that we need to do the best that we can in saving and planning for the future, You do the best that you can do as long as you want or need to and then make it work. For some I know that figure will not allow them to live the same life style that they are living now, so they will need to save more. For others this will be a princely sum, being much more than they are pulling in now.

I will not retire to the Hamptons, nor will I end up on the other side of the tracks.

This type of article is meant to scare you into saving more, which is not a bad thing in itself, but it is not a measurement in defining success or failure.

sf_tech_saver
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by sf_tech_saver » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:00 am

I was struck when reading Ray Dalio's book at his comment that no amount of money ever seemed 'enough' to do everything he wanted. In his case with $17B and one of the best investment track records in history he still wanted more to help everyone he cared about. Obviously, at his scale setting up his family for generations and all of his philanthropic causes are the main need but....

If Ray can want more than $17B to retire.......well...
VTI is a modern marvel

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Bacchus01 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:11 am

scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:40 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 pm
scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:24 pm
I also think in many MCOL areas if you have a paid off mortgage, cars and debt (which most peopel don't), 68k gives you a pretty luxurious life provided you are getting medicare or ACA.
Justin at www.rootofgood.com has three children, and they have spent under $40k annually for the last six years or so. He's a FIRE guy. And they do quite a lot of traveling too. Having no mortgage and getting ACA insurance are big helps to them.
Yeah actually I was going to say we live in a HCOL area (not VHCOL), and if I don't include my Mortgage, daycare, savings, and income/payroll tax (all gone in retirement) only spend about 40k-45k per year. We stay at nice hotels, like nice wine and whiskey, I consider everything pretty cushy.

BTW, just noticed the Schwab study for this post only had 1,000 participants. I'm pretty sure that is not going to adequately represent America.
1,000 people is a more than substantial sample size.

But what does the sample represent? It represents people that are invested. That by itself probably means that the representative sample is one for the top 50th percentile of Americans. I think the sample and the data is fine. I think the conclusions they draw of “all” is severely flawed. The demographics of the sample likely is much narrower than “Americans” in totality.

But, I would say that it probably is accurately aligned with the subset of Bogleheads.

scorcher31
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by scorcher31 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:52 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:11 am
scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:40 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 pm
scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:24 pm
I also think in many MCOL areas if you have a paid off mortgage, cars and debt (which most peopel don't), 68k gives you a pretty luxurious life provided you are getting medicare or ACA.
Justin at www.rootofgood.com has three children, and they have spent under $40k annually for the last six years or so. He's a FIRE guy. And they do quite a lot of traveling too. Having no mortgage and getting ACA insurance are big helps to them.
Yeah actually I was going to say we live in a HCOL area (not VHCOL), and if I don't include my Mortgage, daycare, savings, and income/payroll tax (all gone in retirement) only spend about 40k-45k per year. We stay at nice hotels, like nice wine and whiskey, I consider everything pretty cushy.

BTW, just noticed the Schwab study for this post only had 1,000 participants. I'm pretty sure that is not going to adequately represent America.
1,000 people is a more than substantial sample size.

But what does the sample represent? It represents people that are invested. That by itself probably means that the representative sample is one for the top 50th percentile of Americans. I think the sample and the data is fine. I think the conclusions they draw of “all” is severely flawed. The demographics of the sample likely is much narrower than “Americans” in totality.

But, I would say that it probably is accurately aligned with the subset of Bogleheads.
I agree it may represent boggleheads, but that doesn't reflect Americans in totality or an approximation of average Americans which is implied when they just say "Americans". We need to see the data on each of these people they studied, I just don't believe 1000 people would be close to enough data to accurately see what Americans believe they need to retire as a collective group.

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by lostdog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:21 am

scorcher31 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:24 pm
RetireBy55 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:18 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:14 pm
It's totally laughable. People could retire on much less or much more.
Depends on when you retire (for me, 55), your expenses, other sources of income (no pensions in our household) and cost for medical (~$20K+ for us yearly) through age 65.

$1.7M for many is not unrealistic or excessive whatsoever..at a 4% SWR, that's only $68K/yr, which puts you pretty much in the middle of average American household incomes. And as we all know, you are generally not living large at $68K/yr. Now, if you're pulling SS at FRA or later, have had high average earnings most of your professional life and are at or close to maxing out SS, then you + a spouse who also is at or near max SS can bring in that just from SS - in which case you may in fact, not need $1.7M. But if you retire in your mid 50s, have extremely costly HC premiums and deductibles (like we do), and are in an "average" or heaven forbid, high COL area, that's not an excessive number in my experience..unless you want to spend down at least $700K ($70K/yr over 10+ years ER) and wind up with a much smaller kitty once you hit Medicare age..
Most Americans are not attempting to retire at 55, and absolutely are counting on social security. They are not concerned about 4% SWR and if they are lucky have a few 100k tucked away when they retire. I also think in many MCOL areas if you have a paid off mortgage, cars and debt (which most peopel don't), 68k gives you a pretty luxurious life provided you are getting medicare or ACA.
Most don't even have 10k tucked away. Most try to pay off their house and debt and count their paid off house and SS as their main retirement goals. This is the reality for most. Bogleheads are very very very rare.
I don't invest looking in the rear view mirror and I know absolutely nothing about the future.

Small Law Survivor
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Small Law Survivor » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:45 am

JPH wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 am
Who did they survey? Millionnaires? The average American probably cannot imagine ever having even one million.
Nice TVZ quote, JPH
68 yrs, semi-retired lawyer, 50/40/10 s/b/c, 70/30 dom/int'l. Plan: 4% WR until age 70, 3% after social security kicks in. Boglehead since day 1 (and M* Diehard before that) under various other names

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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by davidsorensen32 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:54 am

Yet another meaningless survey. I don’t understand why reputed organizations keep pumping out these half truths. It would be much more meaningful and beneficial to publish a proper methodology for example like KlangFool writes from time to time

Mickey7 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:51 pm
$1.7 million to retire - gulp, I better start stocking up on Alpo!

Really, I mean REALLY. There are so many variables in this article starting with the core samplers that it cannot be considered a one shoe fits all.

Listen we all know that we need to do the best that we can in saving and planning for the future, You do the best that you can do as long as you want or need to and then make it work. For some I know that figure will not allow them to live the same life style that they are living now, so they will need to save more. For others this will be a princely sum, being much more than they are pulling in now.

I will not retire to the Hamptons, nor will I end up on the other side of the tracks.

This type of article is meant to scare you into saving more, which is not a bad thing in itself, but it is not a measurement in defining success or failure.

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Time2Quit
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Re: Americans believe they need $1.7 million, on average, to retire

Post by Time2Quit » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:33 am

When I was 20 I always said, once I have $2M I would retire. Once I turned 30 I moved that number to $3M, Once I reached $3M, I learned about SORR, LTC, longevity etc. and realized I would not be comfortable with the new number. Point being, we do not know how much knowledge the survey takers posses to make an informed decision. They could be just like my 20 year old self pulling a number out of thin air.
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor." --Seneca

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