My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Pomegranate
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Pomegranate » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:42 am

CULater wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:25 am
The problem with Honda is larger than just the oil dilution issue. The problem is that the brand has deteriorated, and folks (such as myself) need to rethink whether to patronize some formerly well-regarded brands. Change happens.
Remember when Honda introduced the 1.5-liter VTEC Turbo in the Civic? How about when the CR-V switched to the 1.5 as the entry-level engine? As it happens, the four-cylinder powerplant isn’t the most reliable out there, and that’s somewhat worrying if you remember that Honda specialized in engine design and production when Soichiro was running the company.

Planned obsolescence is slowly but steadily eroding the Japanese reliability of old, a similar pattern to what happened to Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Audi in the 1990s.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hond ... 34721.html
Agreed. I’m thinking to switch from ‘buy and hold for 10yrs’ to ‘lease and then buy/return’. Yeah it sounds more expensive but peace of mind is worth it

neilpilot
Posts: 2458
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by neilpilot » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:05 am

CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:38 am

If I were owner of a vehicle with a notorious fuel leaking into oil problem, yes I'd perform an oil analysis.
If the purpose of the oil analysis is to quantify the problem, then maybe an analysis is useful. However, you don't need an analysis to determine if there's meaningful gas infiltration into the oil. Your nose (in addition to your dipstick) will provide reliable qualitative analysis.

If you think that oil analysis will provide you with evidence that Honda will consider meaningful, you might want to think again. Without an independent party taking the sample, and appropriate chain of custody, Honda could simple say that the owner altered the sample by adding a bit of gasoline prior to submission.

If you are really that concerned, just trade in your CRV and avoid all the drama.

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:18 am

neilpilot wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:05 am
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:38 am

If I were owner of a vehicle with a notorious fuel leaking into oil problem, yes I'd perform an oil analysis.
If the purpose of the oil analysis is to quantify the problem, then maybe an analysis is useful. However, you don't need an analysis to determine if there's meaningful gas infiltration into the oil. Your nose (in addition to your dipstick) will provide reliable qualitative analysis.

If you think that oil analysis will provide you with evidence that Honda will consider meaningful, you might want to think again. Without an independent party taking the sample, and appropriate chain of custody, Honda could simple say that the owner altered the sample by adding a bit of gasoline prior to submission.

If you are really that concerned, just trade in your CRV and avoid all the drama.
You can't afford the 35 bucks? No, I'd rather not take my sniff test evidence to Honda instead. We're not talking about legal evidence here. You have to depend to some extent on manufacturer and dealer good will in repairing your damaged engine if that occurs due to apparent oil dilution. But you have to help them discover their good will a little bit by doing what you reasonably can to document the situation with your vehicle. They've already admitted to the fuel dilution issue and they've extended the warranty a bit to cover engine damage that could be attributable to abnormal wear due to oil dilution. Now you need to do your best to be able to show them that warranty coverage should apply to your vehicle if and when you need it. Otherwise, you are at their complete mercy.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

neilpilot
Posts: 2458
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by neilpilot » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:43 am

CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:18 am
neilpilot wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:05 am
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:38 am

If I were owner of a vehicle with a notorious fuel leaking into oil problem, yes I'd perform an oil analysis.
If the purpose of the oil analysis is to quantify the problem, then maybe an analysis is useful. However, you don't need an analysis to determine if there's meaningful gas infiltration into the oil. Your nose (in addition to your dipstick) will provide reliable qualitative analysis.

If you think that oil analysis will provide you with evidence that Honda will consider meaningful, you might want to think again. Without an independent party taking the sample, and appropriate chain of custody, Honda could simple say that the owner altered the sample by adding a bit of gasoline prior to submission.

If you are really that concerned, just trade in your CRV and avoid all the drama.
You can't afford the 35 bucks? No, I'd rather not take my sniff test evidence to Honda instead. We're not talking about legal evidence here. You have to depend to some extent on manufacturer and dealer good will in repairing your damaged engine if that occurs due to apparent oil dilution. But you have to help them discover their good will a little bit by doing what you reasonably can to document the situation with your vehicle. They've already admitted to the fuel dilution issue and they've extended the warranty a bit to cover engine damage that could be attributable to abnormal wear due to oil dilution. Now you need to do your best to be able to show them that warranty coverage should apply to your vehicle if and when you need it. Otherwise, you are at their complete mercy.
Last line above was my main point.

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:34 am

neilpilot wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:43 am
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:18 am
neilpilot wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:05 am
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:38 am

If I were owner of a vehicle with a notorious fuel leaking into oil problem, yes I'd perform an oil analysis.
If the purpose of the oil analysis is to quantify the problem, then maybe an analysis is useful. However, you don't need an analysis to determine if there's meaningful gas infiltration into the oil. Your nose (in addition to your dipstick) will provide reliable qualitative analysis.

If you think that oil analysis will provide you with evidence that Honda will consider meaningful, you might want to think again. Without an independent party taking the sample, and appropriate chain of custody, Honda could simple say that the owner altered the sample by adding a bit of gasoline prior to submission.

If you are really that concerned, just trade in your CRV and avoid all the drama.
You can't afford the 35 bucks? No, I'd rather not take my sniff test evidence to Honda instead. We're not talking about legal evidence here. You have to depend to some extent on manufacturer and dealer good will in repairing your damaged engine if that occurs due to apparent oil dilution. But you have to help them discover their good will a little bit by doing what you reasonably can to document the situation with your vehicle. They've already admitted to the fuel dilution issue and they've extended the warranty a bit to cover engine damage that could be attributable to abnormal wear due to oil dilution. Now you need to do your best to be able to show them that warranty coverage should apply to your vehicle if and when you need it. Otherwise, you are at their complete mercy.
Last line above was my main point.
Think I covered this in my previous post. I'm not willing to assume the cost of their engine defect by taking a hit on trading a vehicle that isn't yet 2 years old. They've admitted to the defect and they've extended the engine damage warranty to six years. I plan to keep the vehicle, monitor and document the engine condition and oil dilution in order to avoid any uncertainty about the vehicle's eligibility for the warranty coverage and let them pay for the repairs that might be required. This until I'm really ready to acquire a new vehicle on my own terms and timing and not because Honda ran me out of Dodge. Everyone has to make their own decision about who pays for what if they have one of these vehicles.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

mortfree
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by mortfree » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:56 am

1. Your CRV (and civics) has the oil dilution problem.
2. Honda attempted a fix.
3. Honda extended the warranty.
4. You are keeping your CRV.

I believe this thread has run its course. Haha.

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:53 pm

One more datapoint. Had the oil and filter changed 350 miles ago and saw that the gasoil level was above the full mark on the orange thing. Black as soot. Just drew off about 400 ml of gasoil from the crankcase, which amounts to a little under half quart, or a fuel dilution percentage of about 11%. I'll keep track and see how long it takes for the gasoil level to rise back.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:02 pm

CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:53 pm
One more datapoint. Had the oil and filter changed 350 miles ago and saw that the gasoil level was above the full mark on the orange thing. Black as soot. Just drew off about 400 ml of gasoil from the crankcase, which amounts to a little under half quart, or a fuel dilution percentage of about 11%. I'll keep track and see how long it takes for the gasoil level to rise back.
What was the results of the oil test analysis?
What was the metal and wear indicator loads in the tested oil?

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:53 pm

mortfree wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:56 am
1. Your CRV (and civics) has the oil dilution problem.
2. Honda attempted a fix.
3. Honda extended the warranty.
4. You are keeping your CRV.

I believe this thread has run its course. Haha.
You're probably right. Not too much more to say and posts are getting a little too sketchy and contentious for me. Hasta la vista. Anybody who owns a CRV and is having the oil dilution problem, I'd be interested in your experience and whether it's similar to mine, and if new info becomes available. PM if you are serious about the issue and want to touch base.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

Horsefly
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:13 am
Location: Colorado, mostly

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Horsefly » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:02 pm

It seems that CUlater is taking some heat for keeping this thread alive but speaking personally, I'm glad he has continued pressing. My daughter has one of these cars, and her dealer has been claiming to have not even heard anything about it for over a year.

I visit Bogleheads.org often, and if not for this thread I would not even know about the extended warranty from Honda. I also wouldn't have known about the Consumer Reports articles.

It seems odd to me when someone jumps into a thread to tell someone else to "let it go" and not continue. If you don't want to read a thread, I'm pretty sure you don't have to. In fact, the irony seems pretty thick when someone wishes a thread would not continue, so posts in the thread to say so. :?
Last edited by Horsefly on Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mortfree
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by mortfree » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:23 pm

^^^^
Don’t get me wrong it is a very informative thread.

I agree with CULater that it is becoming a little heated.

I’m just hoping my 2017 Accord LX doesn’t have this problem. It is a 2.4L if I remember right.

I also have a 2014 Pilot.

UpperNwGuy
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by UpperNwGuy » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:33 pm

I am happy to see this thread continue. My daughter bought her 2018 CRV about the same time that CULater first posted about his CRV problem. My daughter doesn't read bogleheads, or any other investing site, so I've been keeping her informed of the saga. Her CRV has not shown any problems yet, but she's now fully aware of what to watch for.

Meanwhile, yours truly needs a new vehicle to replace my 2002 clunker, and I want to get a compact SUV. Of the ones I have looked at, I like the CRV and the Forester the best, but from reading bogleheads, I have learned that both have problems. (The Forester burns oil and has CVT problems.) If Honda and Subaru can get their acts together, perhaps I will have a decent choice between the 2020 CRV and the 2020 Forester. If they don't, I may have to look elsewhere.

So, I am in favor of this thread continuing. I appreciate CULater's updates on both the status of his car and on what he has learned about Honda's limited attempts to deal with this issue nationwide. Please keep the information flowing.

CFM300
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:13 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CFM300 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:48 pm

Horsefly wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:02 pm
It seems that CUlater is taking some heat for keeping this thread alive but speaking personally, I'm glad he has continued pressing. My daughter has one of these cars, and her dealer has been claiming to have not even heard anything about it for over a year.

I visit Bogleheads.org often, and if not for this thread I would not even know about the extended warranty from Honda. I also wouldn't have known about the Consumer Reports articles.

It seems odd to me when someone jumps into a thread to tell someone else to "let it go" and not continue. If you don't want to read a thread, I'm pretty sure you don't have to. In fact, the irony seems pretty thick when someone wishes a thread would not continue, so posts in the thread to say so. :?
I agree with everything above, and I've stated my appreciation for CULater's efforts previously in this thread. I sincerely believe he's performing a public service.

Further, I do NOT think this thread has run it's course. For instance, the warranty extension discussed on the previous page is new information.

What's derailing this thread are posters continually arguing with CULater to get rid of his vehicle. If you don't want to see updates to the Honda dilution issue, don't read this thread. Pretty simple.

User avatar
RootSki
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:52 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by RootSki » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:08 pm

If it wasn’t for this thread, I wouldn’t have known where to send my oil for analysis on the car I just purchased. So thanks for the Blackstone Labs tip.

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:16 am

smitcat wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:02 pm
CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:53 pm
One more datapoint. Had the oil and filter changed 350 miles ago and saw that the gasoil level was above the full mark on the orange thing. Black as soot. Just drew off about 400 ml of gasoil from the crankcase, which amounts to a little under half quart, or a fuel dilution percentage of about 11%. I'll keep track and see how long it takes for the gasoil level to rise back.
What was the results of the oil test analysis?
What was the metal and wear indicator loads in the tested oil?
Hello CULater - You are recommending that people perform their own oil samples both at a cost and as protection against further engine damage in the future.
Would you please post one of your oil analysis results or preferably a copy of the entire report with the results that you have seen.
It would be best if we could see the results and learn why you are recommending these steps.
Thank you

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:55 am

RootSki wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:08 pm
If it wasn’t for this thread, I wouldn’t have known where to send my oil for analysis on the car I just purchased. So thanks for the Blackstone Labs tip.
We have run maybe 3 dozen oil analysis over the years , most were for diesel engines but many were for gas engines as well.
Blackstone is a very good source for this service as their test results are always detailed and explained fully.
Please pay close attention to the process of extracting your oil specimen for correct results otherwise they will be misleading and/or useless.
The instructions are clear in how to collect the sample but just repeating a few here - make sure there is a minimum use on the oil that will reveal issues, you must know the last oil brand and exact type that was put in the crankcase, the sample must be pristine and not contaminated by a dipstick tube or the like. Blackstone typically responded within two weeks of a sample presentation.

tibbitts
Posts: 8690
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tibbitts » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:44 pm

CFM300 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:48 pm
Horsefly wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:02 pm
It seems that CUlater is taking some heat for keeping this thread alive but speaking personally, I'm glad he has continued pressing. My daughter has one of these cars, and her dealer has been claiming to have not even heard anything about it for over a year.

I visit Bogleheads.org often, and if not for this thread I would not even know about the extended warranty from Honda. I also wouldn't have known about the Consumer Reports articles.

It seems odd to me when someone jumps into a thread to tell someone else to "let it go" and not continue. If you don't want to read a thread, I'm pretty sure you don't have to. In fact, the irony seems pretty thick when someone wishes a thread would not continue, so posts in the thread to say so. :?
I agree with everything above, and I've stated my appreciation for CULater's efforts previously in this thread. I sincerely believe he's performing a public service.

Further, I do NOT think this thread has run it's course. For instance, the warranty extension discussed on the previous page is new information.

What's derailing this thread are posters continually arguing with CULater to get rid of his vehicle. If you don't want to see updates to the Honda dilution issue, don't read this thread. Pretty simple.
I agree the thread is useful, and will be going forward as it's updated. I don't own one of the affected vehicles but still appreciate the value of the thread.

notinuse
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by notinuse » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:01 pm

CULater, I value your information updates. Please continue.

Finridge
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:27 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Finridge » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:55 pm

notinuse wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:01 pm
CULater, I value your information updates. Please continue.
Me too.

kjvmartin
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:57 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by kjvmartin » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:01 am

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/06/10 ... p-invoice/

Terrible PR for Honda. Thought of this thread.

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:56 pm

kjvmartin wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:01 am
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/06/10 ... p-invoice/

Terrible PR for Honda. Thought of this thread.
Thanks. Shows that the problem is still there with the 2019 CRV, just as I thought.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

User avatar
Artful Dodger
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:56 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Artful Dodger » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:20 pm

I appreciate this thread. We recently began looking for a compact SUV for my wife, and drove the CR-V, Mazda CX5, Toyota RAV 4, and the Subaru Forester & Outback. My wife made the final decision, and we went with the Forester. The CR-V was a strong second, but the comments on this thread and regular posts from the OP were part of our discussion. I was also surprised to see a fairly low consumer review rating for the CR-V on the Edmunds site. There were multiple negative reviews about battery issues in the new 2019s. I think they may have fixed the battery issue with a software update, but seeing lots of negative comments about two separate issues definitely gave me pause.

User avatar
tennisplyr
Posts: 2197
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Sarasota, FL

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tennisplyr » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:25 pm

Yes, because of this thread, this 35 year Honda owner has just bought a Mazda CX-5...thank you!
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

kmurp
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by kmurp » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:03 am

We may be in the market for a small SUV in the next 12 months. I’m hoping that this gets fixed because it seems to me that the Honda excels in cargo capacity which is really handy. I’m not sure any of the alternatives compare well on this item vs the crv.

Morse Code
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Morse Code » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:52 am

I bought a 2018 with the 1.5l in March of 2018, about a week before I saw this thread. I have chimed in a few times to offer my experience as another data point.

I've driven 16,500 miles so far under the worst possible conditions with a two mile commute and just got through the brutal Polar Vortex with bitter cold temps in Michigan for several months. I often go home for lunch which means four, cold start, two mile commutes per day. The only symptom I have is a higher reading on my dipstick. No smells, no problems with heater, no other issues.

My plan is to use the vehicle normally and see if it needs new rocker arms or cam shafts within the 6-year warranty period and then reevaluate. If these parts wear out prematurely and Honda replaces them, I should be good to go for another several years. If not, I may sell after the warranty period just to reduce my risk of their failure out of warranty at which point I should have over 80,000 miles on the vehicle.

For whatever it's worth, this is the nicest vehicle I've ever driven. Every review I've read puts the CRV #1 over it's competitors and it doesn't surprise me a bit.
Livin' the dream

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:20 pm

tennisplyr wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:25 pm
Yes, because of this thread, this 35 year Honda owner has just bought a Mazda CX-5...thank you!
:thumbsup :thumbsup
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

researcher
Posts: 940
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by researcher » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:31 pm

Morse Code wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:52 am
Every review I've read puts the CRV #1 over it's competitors and it doesn't surprise me a bit.
You apparently missed this important one...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... suvs-2019/

Morse Code
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Morse Code » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:38 am

researcher wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:31 pm
Morse Code wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:52 am
Every review I've read puts the CRV #1 over it's competitors and it doesn't surprise me a bit.
You apparently missed this important one...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... suvs-2019/
Why is it more important than this one or all the others?
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/honda/c ... yota-rav4/
Livin' the dream

Carl53
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Carl53 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:58 am

Morse Code wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:38 am
researcher wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:31 pm
Morse Code wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:52 am
Every review I've read puts the CRV #1 over it's competitors and it doesn't surprise me a bit.
You apparently missed this important one...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... suvs-2019/
Why is it more important than this one or all the others?
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/honda/c ... yota-rav4/
I first thought to myself that he did not mean that it was more important, but possibly one that pointed out some shortfall. After looking at the link, it appears to be for trucks and not SUVs. C&D does have a CRV vs Forrester review, https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... -forester/, but it comes out with the CRV slightly more favorably viewed.

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:40 am

Morse Code wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:52 am
I bought a 2018 with the 1.5l in March of 2018, about a week before I saw this thread. I have chimed in a few times to offer my experience as another data point.

I've driven 16,500 miles so far under the worst possible conditions with a two mile commute and just got through the brutal Polar Vortex with bitter cold temps in Michigan for several months. I often go home for lunch which means four, cold start, two mile commutes per day. The only symptom I have is a higher reading on my dipstick. No smells, no problems with heater, no other issues.

My plan is to use the vehicle normally and see if it needs new rocker arms or cam shafts within the 6-year warranty period and then reevaluate. If these parts wear out prematurely and Honda replaces them, I should be good to go for another several years. If not, I may sell after the warranty period just to reduce my risk of their failure out of warranty at which point I should have over 80,000 miles on the vehicle.

For whatever it's worth, this is the nicest vehicle I've ever driven. Every review I've read puts the CRV #1 over it's competitors and it doesn't surprise me a bit.
Hello Morse code - this has been the results with the 4 cars we are very familiar with that have the 1.5 engine as well - one CRV and 3 Civics. One Civic owned by our niece has a bit of oil level growth between changes but so far shows no other problems.
I have been asked by her what I think she should do now that she is approaching 30K miles with no other issues.....
That alone drew me into following this thread and looking for both facts and 'actionable' solutions.
Some actionable thoughts would be keep/hold/sell/demand service all of which would be affected by:
- an owner that had an oil analysis sharing that information
- data on engines that did not start/ had poor mileage/ degraded performance
- actual engine failures data with key failure points and/or costs
- data on similar choices to the CRV/Civic that might have a known lower problem % (not just for oil dilution)

Based upon the facts I know so far the problems of fuel dilution are not widespread , when present if does not cause engine wear, and the engines are granted extended warrantees. The choices out there for CRV's and Civics all seem to have some problems that we would not 'trade' for this oil dilution issue we personally have seen so far.
Based upon these facts I have instructed my niece to do exactly what your describe above - drive the car and enjoy it but be aware of any conditional change and revisit if/as more real data becomes available.
It would be very appreciated if someone on this board had some real data that would sway the facts one way or the other such as - copy of an oil analysis by Blackstone, repair bill attributable to this issue, performance or mileage problem related to oil dilution, etc.
Unless/until something changes the 1.5 in the all the vehicles are performing great and they love the cars/CRV.

Doug E. Dee
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:18 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Doug E. Dee » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:22 pm

CULater,
I have really enjoyed following this thread and wish it to remain open.

Why can't uninterested parties simply scroll by?

Please continue posting!

California88
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:08 pm

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by California88 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:28 pm

Just heard the Honda dealership that I've used for over 30 years is going out of business (after more than 50 years)! They told the employees "they''re just not making enough $ to keep the business going ... and that everyone would lost their jobs at the end of the month"!

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:28 am

California88 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:28 pm
Just heard the Honda dealership that I've used for over 30 years is going out of business (after more than 50 years)! They told the employees "they''re just not making enough $ to keep the business going ... and that everyone would lost their jobs at the end of the month"!
Unit sales data
Honda USA CRV sales
2018
379.013
2017
377.895
2016
357.335
2015
345.647
2014
335.019
2013
303.904

Honda USA Civic sales
2018
325.760
2017
377.286
2016
366.927
2015
335.384
2014
325.981
2013
336.180

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:41 pm

Couple thoughts about the effect of oil dilution on the CRV engine. I suspect that abnormal engine wear isn't a problem until it is, and most 2017 CRVs have probably not yet reached that point with maybe 35K - 45K miles on them at most. If you expect to keep your Honda with the 1.5T to 100,000 miles or beyond, I'd think again. That 6-year drivetrain warranty extension will be running out just about the time the impact of the gasoil on the engine starts showing up. My previous two Hondas went for 10+ years with 150K - 200K miles on the engines. But I'm willing to give odds that this one will crap out long before then.

Second, buying one of these and owning one of these are two different proportions. If you own one, like I do, then you're stuck with the consequences. If you don't own one, I think you're a bit limp in the head if you choose to buy one. And if you're shopping, I'd do my best to avoid direct-injected engines particularly those with a turbo. Two possibilities are the CX-5, which has DGI but a non-turbo option and the RAV4, which has a non-turbo with dual port/direct injection.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:44 pm

CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:41 pm
Couple thoughts about the effect of oil dilution on the CRV engine. I suspect that abnormal engine wear isn't a problem until it is, and most 2017 CRVs have probably not yet reached that point with maybe 35K - 45K miles on them at most. If you expect to keep your Honda with the 1.5T to 100,000 miles or beyond, I'd think again. That 6-year drivetrain warranty extension will be running out just about the time the impact of the gasoil on the engine starts showing up. My previous two Hondas went for 10+ years with 150K - 200K miles on the engines. But I'm willing to give odds that this one will crap out long before then.

Second, buying one of these and owning one of these are two different proportions. If you own one, like I do, then you're stuck with the consequences. If you don't own one, I think you're a bit limp in the head if you choose to buy one. And if you're shopping, I'd do my best to avoid direct-injected engines particularly those with a turbo. Two possibilities are the CX-5, which has DGI but a non-turbo option and the RAV4, which has a non-turbo with dual port/direct injection.
Hello CULater

I believe you had two independent oil analysis done on your heavily diluted lube oil.
Would you please post the results of those tests for the rest of us so we can learn from those results.
Thank you

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:44 pm

The principal findings from the oil analyses I've had done reveal two concerns. First, the percentage of fuel in the oil has exceeded 5% each time, which is the limit beyond which percentage dilution can be accurately measured. I've estimated, based on the volume increase indicated on the dipstick that the amount of fuel dilution has exceeded 10% and may be as high as 15%.

The second finding is that the Base Number (BN) has measured below 3.0 in every oil analysis. I've done some research on this, and this is what I've found:
Base number (BN) is a property used to monitor combustion engine oils. It is defined as the oil's ability to neutralize acids that are formed as a byproduct of combustion, chemical reactions and oil degradation. Typically, the higher the BN, the more acid it will be able to neutralize. New engine oils usually have a BN range of 5 to 15. As oil is used in service, it becomes contaminated with acids, causing the base number to drop over time. The rate of the drop is determined by the amount of acids introduced to the system.

By using oil analysis for your engine oil, you will be able to track the BN of your oil and determine how much life is remaining. Once the base number drops below 3, this is considered too low and should trigger an oil change for your engine.

Mechanically, fuel could be entering the crankcase and causing dilution. This will also result in the rate of BN decay to increase.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... se-number
As the engine operates, acidic by-products from the combustion process get past the piston rings and into the oil. The acids combine with moisture (every gallon of gasoline burnt produces 1/2 gallon of moisture) which can dissolve bearing surfaces.

Modern motor oils contain additives to combat the acid build up in the oil. As the oil becomes contaminated and turns acidic, the additives get used up. Preventing acid buildup is a very big reason for changing motor oil regularly.
https://www.waynesgarage.com/tips/more- ... -about-oil

In other words, the fuel getting into the oil in the 1.5T engine is causing the oil to break down prematurely and consequently the oil is doing a less effective job of preventing damage to engine bearing surfaces. This is independent of increased engine wear that might be attributable to reduced oil viscosity from fuel dilution.

If you have this vehicle, it's important to monitor the level of gasoil on the dipstick. An increase of just a few MM above the level at your last oil change can signify fuel dilution in excess of 5%. It's also important to watch the BN value on the oil analysis. It would seem that frequent oil changes would be advisable. I'm getting BN numbers < 3 after just 4000 miles, so I should probably be changing the oil at 3000 or less to see how that affects BN. Unfortunately, if you follow the Maintenance Minder system on the CRV you'll probably not be changing oil until oil life is indicated as 25% or less, and this will be 7000 miles or longer between changes.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:46 am

CULater wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:44 pm
The principal findings from the oil analyses I've had done reveal two concerns. First, the percentage of fuel in the oil has exceeded 5% each time, which is the limit beyond which percentage dilution can be accurately measured. I've estimated, based on the volume increase indicated on the dipstick that the amount of fuel dilution has exceeded 10% and may be as high as 15%.

The second finding is that the Base Number (BN) has measured below 3.0 in every oil analysis. I've done some research on this, and this is what I've found:
Base number (BN) is a property used to monitor combustion engine oils. It is defined as the oil's ability to neutralize acids that are formed as a byproduct of combustion, chemical reactions and oil degradation. Typically, the higher the BN, the more acid it will be able to neutralize. New engine oils usually have a BN range of 5 to 15. As oil is used in service, it becomes contaminated with acids, causing the base number to drop over time. The rate of the drop is determined by the amount of acids introduced to the system.

By using oil analysis for your engine oil, you will be able to track the BN of your oil and determine how much life is remaining. Once the base number drops below 3, this is considered too low and should trigger an oil change for your engine.

Mechanically, fuel could be entering the crankcase and causing dilution. This will also result in the rate of BN decay to increase.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... se-number
As the engine operates, acidic by-products from the combustion process get past the piston rings and into the oil. The acids combine with moisture (every gallon of gasoline burnt produces 1/2 gallon of moisture) which can dissolve bearing surfaces.

Modern motor oils contain additives to combat the acid build up in the oil. As the oil becomes contaminated and turns acidic, the additives get used up. Preventing acid buildup is a very big reason for changing motor oil regularly.
https://www.waynesgarage.com/tips/more- ... -about-oil

In other words, the fuel getting into the oil in the 1.5T engine is causing the oil to break down prematurely and consequently the oil is doing a less effective job of preventing damage to engine bearing surfaces. This is independent of increased engine wear that might be attributable to reduced oil viscosity from fuel dilution.

If you have this vehicle, it's important to monitor the level of gasoil on the dipstick. An increase of just a few MM above the level at your last oil change can signify fuel dilution in excess of 5%. It's also important to watch the BN value on the oil analysis. It would seem that frequent oil changes would be advisable. I'm getting BN numbers < 3 after just 4000 miles, so I should probably be changing the oil at 3000 or less to see how that affects BN. Unfortunately, if you follow the Maintenance Minder system on the CRV you'll probably not be changing oil until oil life is indicated as 25% or less, and this will be 7000 miles or longer between changes.

Your TBN numbers under 3 may indicate a concern if you were to run too long after its gets under 1 (TBN less than one) - what is the TBN of your virgin oil test?
Some virgin oils TBN starts as low as 6 and others as high as 14 perhaps switch to a popular oil that has a higher TBN could be a good action item as well.
TBN umbers drop quickly with new oils and then level off dropping slower as time goes by - did you run any oil analysis with mileage higher than the 4,000 miles.
"I should probably be changing the oil at 3000 or less to see how that affects BN."
All oil labs that I am familiar with including the popular single user lab "Blackstone" suggest that a TBN of over one is well in the specs on use before change. It is also important for TBN on how you draw the sample ---get the engine up to full temperature , select the sample from the oil stream, select the oil sample from the middle of the stream/not at the start or end of the oil drain, ensure that there are no contaminants at the drain area before initiating the stream, etc.
Drawing an oil sample without the engine being started and up to temperature will yield a lower TBN.

The most important oil analysis results for my nieces Civic that is seeing some oil dilution is metal content.
What are the metal content results in your analysis - Cu, Tn, Si, etc in PPM?
What was the labs statement on the metal content analysis based upon your base oil and use?

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:53 am

Oil Analysis ...
The TBN number is important - if it goes below a reading of one problems may occur and an oil change is warranted.
Fleets use oil tests to extend oil changes safely - a reading of 3 would direct them to extend the oil change and retest for more oil life at higher use rates.
Blackstone labs is the most common oil test lab for consumer use, this is the section that describes the TBN levels at Blackstone labs:

"The oil’s function is to lubricate, clean, and cool the engine. Additives are added to the oil to enhance those functions. The TBN will start out reading in the 6.0 to 14.0 range (depending on the oil and whether it’s meant for gas or diesel engines). When you first start using the oil, the TBN tends to drop sharply. Then it levels out and drops more slowly after that. The lower the TBN reading, the less active additive the oil has left. A low TBN test result, meaning very little additive is left, is down around 1.0 or lower."

And this is the link to the Blackstone labs website, a good source for testing oil:
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/do-i-need-a-tbn/

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:04 am

My testing was done at Oil Analyzers. Reportedly, Blackstone Lab fuel dilution is tested in a less accurate manner than Oil Analyzers, which is why I chose them. Blackstone uses flash point, while OA (Polaris) uses gas chromatography which directly measures fuel dilution.
It has recently come to my attention that Blackstone Labs may have inadequate fuel dilution testing. I want to share with you two used oil analysis performed on the same vehicle at the same time. You will see that the fuel dilution testing by Blackstone Labs may be seriously lacking when compared to Oil Analyzers Inc. testing.
http://renosyn.com/blackstone-labs-vs-o ... on-issue/
Perhaps the most effective technology for fuel dilution is gas chromatography. In this test, hydrocarbons in the oil sample are separated and measured. Since fuel has significantly smaller hydrocarbons than the lubricant base oil, it can be monitored more accurately.

The results are typically given in percentages, with a recommended cautionary limit of 1.5 percent and a critical limit of less than 5 percent. When fuel levels are much higher than 5 percent, there is a risk of engine fire.

One additional test worth mentioning is flash point. When the flash point of an engine oil drops by 20 degrees C, there likely is a problem with fuel dilution. This test is qualitative but not quantitative for fuel.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... ion-tests

Also, Oil Analyzers reports Base Number (D4739) and not TBN (D2896). It looks like my oil analyses were done at 5000, 3200, and 5500 miles following oil/filter changes with full synthetic dealer-bulk 0W-20 oil at each change. All 3 analyses flagged BN as low and it was < 3.
Last edited by CULater on Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:30 am

CULater wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:04 am
My testing was done at Oil Analyzers. Reportedly, Blackstone Lab fuel dilution is tested in a less accurate manner than Oil Analyzers, which is why I chose them. Also, Oil Analyzers reports Base Number (D4739) and not TBN (D2896). I'll see if I can figure out the exact mileage on the oil when my first two analyses were performed.
I am not familiar with Oil Anyalyzers, have used CAT, APEX, Blackstone and Polaris.
As one example only when I did my Dodge diesel oil tests I got these approx. numbers:
Virgin oil TBN = 10
@ 2,000 miles = 6
@ 6,000 miles = 5
@ 8,000 miles = 4
The TBN drops vey quickly at the beginning and then levels off greatly over time.
Any figure at or over one would be fine for oil change intervals.

What were your metal content numbers on the Analysis?

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:38 am

Oil Analyzers, Inc. uses Horizon, which is Polaris Labs data management reporting application for retrieving customer UOA reports. Basically, Oil Analyzers , Inc., contracts with Polaris Laboratories.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:57 am

CULater wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:38 am
Oil Analyzers, Inc. uses Horizon, which is Polaris Labs data management reporting application for retrieving customer UOA reports. Basically, Oil Analyzers , Inc., contracts with Polaris Laboratories.
I just visited Oil Analyzers website - the section on how to read the report says they report TBN.
What is the virgin oils TBN number for the oil that was installed in your CRV?
Why would a TBN of 3 be considered flagged? All of my tests regard any TBN higher than one and good to go.

What was the various metals content in PPM on your oil tests? Was the metal content flagged?

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:00 am

Cut and paste from Oil Analyzers website on 'how to read a report" on TBN....

Base Number TBN
50% depletion
57% depletion
65% depletion
80% depletion

Website is here:
https://www.oaitesting.com/reading-reports.aspx#guide

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:11 am

CULater wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:04 am
My testing was done at Oil Analyzers. Reportedly, Blackstone Lab fuel dilution is tested in a less accurate manner than Oil Analyzers, which is why I chose them. Blackstone uses flash point, while OA (Polaris) uses gas chromatography which directly measures fuel dilution.
It has recently come to my attention that Blackstone Labs may have inadequate fuel dilution testing. I want to share with you two used oil analysis performed on the same vehicle at the same time. You will see that the fuel dilution testing by Blackstone Labs may be seriously lacking when compared to Oil Analyzers Inc. testing.
http://renosyn.com/blackstone-labs-vs-o ... on-issue/
Perhaps the most effective technology for fuel dilution is gas chromatography. In this test, hydrocarbons in the oil sample are separated and measured. Since fuel has significantly smaller hydrocarbons than the lubricant base oil, it can be monitored more accurately.

The results are typically given in percentages, with a recommended cautionary limit of 1.5 percent and a critical limit of less than 5 percent. When fuel levels are much higher than 5 percent, there is a risk of engine fire.

One additional test worth mentioning is flash point. When the flash point of an engine oil drops by 20 degrees C, there likely is a problem with fuel dilution. This test is qualitative but not quantitative for fuel.
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... ion-tests

Also, Oil Analyzers reports Base Number (D4739) and not TBN (D2896). It looks like my oil analyses were done at 5000, 3200, and 5500 miles following oil/filter changes with full synthetic dealer-bulk 0W-20 oil at each change. All 3 analyses flagged BN as low and it was < 3.
"It looks like my oil analyses were done at 5000, 3200, and 5500 miles following oil/filter changes with full synthetic dealer-bulk 0W-20 oil at each change. All 3 analyses flagged BN as low and it was < 3."

If your oil changes were at 5K , 3.2K and 5.5K miles and they all had oil tests done at those mileages and the results for TBN were all the more or less the same then the TBN is not dropping between 3.2 and 5.5K miles.
Dependent upon the TBN of the virgin base oil you may be seeing a complete non event here.
In any case the results at 3.2, 5 and 5.5 on the same engine indicates that it could easily go for another 3K miles above the existing 5.5K.
Based on these results I would run to between 7-8K miles before the next change and retest.
The Honda built in mileage meter for change interval will most likely require a change prior to the 7-8K mile number so perhaps test at end of life on the MM.

Anyone really concerned with TBN needs to consider the base oil they buy/install in their vehicles engine as the TBN on these oils vary considerably.

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:43 am

Specifically, the report shows Base Number (D4739) and not TBN (D2896). Don't know the BN of fresh oil, as it is bulk oil from Honda dealer. The report flags BN as somewhat low and it is discussed in the comment section with a recommendation to resample at half intervals. The dealer standard recommendation for oil changes is at 5000 miles but that's not based on anything about fuel dilution. Stock Honda advice about fuel dilution has been to change oil when the gasoil level on the dipstick has increased noticeably. By my measure an 8 mm increase in the level corresponds to about 1/2 qt. of fuel dilution, which is about 12% dilution, so just 4 mm would represent > 5% dilution. It's hard to monitor this accurately because the orange plastic dipstick is hard to read with 0-20 oil, which is like water to begin with and 4 mm isn't much of a visual change. Not surprising to me that the typical level of fuel dilution in my engine would degrade the oil additives. I don't plan on running for more than 5000 miles between oil changes. You might be right that the BN drops rather quickly to < 3 and then more slowly since it was about the same at 3000 and 5000 miles. This might correspond with the fact that the oil becomes blacker much more quickly than I've previously experienced; perhaps that occurs when the additives have deteriorated.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:23 am

Old news, but I find the parallels to the CRV oil dilution issue rather interesting. This one involved the opposite problem of oil getting into the combustion chamber of the V-6 with cylinder deactivation. Just as with the CRV, Honda mislead and denied and never issued a recall even though there were hundreds of complaints. Then they finally got sued and settled a class action. Deja Vu anyone?
DETROIT -- American Honda Motor Co. has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over claims that it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements.

The settlement concerns all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accord, 2008-13 Odyssey, 2009-13 Pilot, 2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.

The original suit -- filed in March 2012 by plaintiffs Alex Soto and Vince Eagen -- claimed the vehicles contained a "systematic design defect that enables oil to enter into the engine's combustion chamber." The alleged defect led to "premature spark plug degradation and engine malfunction," court documents said.

The plaintiffs claimed Honda hid the problem from consumers. Honda denied the allegation, despite receiving hundreds of online complaints on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Web site, and about 130 on carcomplaints.com concerning the 2008 Accord alone.

Honda later issued a technical service bulletin notifying its technicians to check for the defect. The automaker did not issue a recall because a safety issue was not discovered.
https://www.autonews.com/article/201310 ... ning-claim
Honda Acknowledges The Oil Problem In TSB #11-033 - In July of 2011 Honda quietly acknowledged the problem in the form of a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB #11-033). The TSB says the probable cause of the problem is the VCM (variable cylinder management) and should be fixed by a simple software update at a certified Honda mechanic.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Pil ... tion.shtml
Last edited by CULater on Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

Topic Author
CULater
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:55 am

My viscosity readings have been 6.9, 5.5, and 6.6. OA website indicates 6.9 Minimum cST@100C, so appears slightly below minimum. That, along with the marginal BN seem to be the main correlates of the fuel dilution so far.
Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:45 pm

CULater wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:43 am
Specifically, the report shows Base Number (D4739) and not TBN (D2896). Don't know the BN of fresh oil, as it is bulk oil from Honda dealer. The report flags BN as somewhat low and it is discussed in the comment section with a recommendation to resample at half intervals. The dealer standard recommendation for oil changes is at 5000 miles but that's not based on anything about fuel dilution. Stock Honda advice about fuel dilution has been to change oil when the gasoil level on the dipstick has increased noticeably. By my measure an 8 mm increase in the level corresponds to about 1/2 qt. of fuel dilution, which is about 12% dilution, so just 4 mm would represent > 5% dilution. It's hard to monitor this accurately because the orange plastic dipstick is hard to read with 0-20 oil, which is like water to begin with and 4 mm isn't much of a visual change. Not surprising to me that the typical level of fuel dilution in my engine would degrade the oil additives. I don't plan on running for more than 5000 miles between oil changes. You might be right that the BN drops rather quickly to < 3 and then more slowly since it was about the same at 3000 and 5000 miles. This might correspond with the fact that the oil becomes blacker much more quickly than I've previously experienced; perhaps that occurs when the additives have deteriorated.
"You might be right that the BN drops rather quickly to < 3 and then more slowly since it was about the same at 3000 and 5000 miles"
It is not a guess on my part its is a direct result of your oil tests with your engine - proof positive in your specific case.

"This might correspond with the fact that the oil becomes blacker much more quickly than I've previously experienced; perhaps that occurs when the additives have deteriorated."
Oil color in visible light has nothing to do with additives or suspension components.

"Don't know the BN of fresh oil, as it is bulk oil from Honda dealer."
Then you cannot calculate the degradation of the TBN - the bulk oil may be very low TBN to start.

"The report flags BN as somewhat low and it is discussed in the comment section with a recommendation to resample at half intervals."
The report is both generic and subjective without knowing the initial TBN and the half life sample. Your half life sample (3.2 vs 5.5) already proves that the TBN is not falling after 3.2 and that the stability is fine.

All of the above are indirect indicators of potential problems ….
What were the metals content results of the tests?

smitcat
Posts: 3435
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:50 pm

CULater wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:23 am
Old news, but I find the parallels to the CRV oil dilution issue rather interesting. This one involved the opposite problem of oil getting into the combustion chamber of the V-6 with cylinder deactivation. Just as with the CRV, Honda mislead and denied and never issued a recall even though there were hundreds of complaints. Then they finally got sued and settled a class action. Deja Vu anyone?
DETROIT -- American Honda Motor Co. has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over claims that it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements.

The settlement concerns all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accord, 2008-13 Odyssey, 2009-13 Pilot, 2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.

The original suit -- filed in March 2012 by plaintiffs Alex Soto and Vince Eagen -- claimed the vehicles contained a "systematic design defect that enables oil to enter into the engine's combustion chamber." The alleged defect led to "premature spark plug degradation and engine malfunction," court documents said.

The plaintiffs claimed Honda hid the problem from consumers. Honda denied the allegation, despite receiving hundreds of online complaints on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Web site, and about 130 on carcomplaints.com concerning the 2008 Accord alone.

Honda later issued a technical service bulletin notifying its technicians to check for the defect. The automaker did not issue a recall because a safety issue was not discovered.
https://www.autonews.com/article/201310 ... ning-claim
Honda Acknowledges The Oil Problem In TSB #11-033 - In July of 2011 Honda quietly acknowledged the problem in the form of a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB #11-033). The TSB says the probable cause of the problem is the VCM (variable cylinder management) and should be fixed by a simple software update at a certified Honda mechanic.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Pil ... tion.shtml
Yes - old news unrelated to the engine we have in these cars and CRV.
Please confirm the news on the current issue with the new Honda 1.5 turbo engine.
Please post the metal content from the oil analysis that you performed?
I/we can use that data to help determine if we should also get an oil analysis performed on our cars/CRV's with oil dilution issues.

Post Reply