What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
flyingcows
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by flyingcows » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:45 am

- Tires (Michelin)
- Mac Laptops
- PC components and accessories. No specific brand recommendations, I just avoid budget tier items for these categories: Case, Fans, Power Supply, Mechanical Keyboards, Displays
- Tire Pressure Gauges
- Vinyl wrap (3M)
- Window Tint Film

bradpevans
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by bradpevans » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:48 am

BogleMelon wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am
What products in life that worth buying the "flagship" version of them?
My own experience: I bought the following item as "budget" AKA cheap and regretted it
- Brand new Moto G5 plus. Now that I switched to Pixel 2 (bought used) I see a huge difference in speed and performance.
- I tried the Nespresso pods (came free when bought the maker), and the flavor was so rich and amazing. I then refilled with Amazon cheaper pods with 4+ reviews, I felt a huge downgrade, and the coffee tasted as if it is another regular brewed coffee but just darker (bitter or burned taste). Ordered again Nespresso and waiting for it to be delivered.
- Budget car (AKA used Hyundai) because at that time I didn't have the money to buy a "relatively flagship" car (AKA Toyota), now I regret the decision whenever I have to pay $$ in repairs every year because of the cheap materials of the Hyundai. Had I bought a Toyota or Honda from the beginning, it would be a better financial decision in the long run.
- Building a computer case years ago, I decided to go with a generic power supply, since then, almost every game I play, the computer restarts itself after 30 minutes of playing or so (No, the processor is not overheating). After researching, I decided to go with a quality power supply to provide the PC with needed wattage. Ordered and waiting for delivery, hoping that should fix the issue forever.
- A budget dash cam, 2 years now and its internal battery is dead making the date reset every time I start the car. Unfortunately, I can not justify paying over $300 for a flagship one. And I couldn't find a reasonable used one on eBay, So I will replace it with another budget one for now (with capacitor though instead of battery)

That makes think, what kind of other products we would be better buying as flagship (even used, if one can not afford them new) better than buying a brand new budget version of the same product?
this makes me think of the saying "the stingy man spends the most"

Nowizard
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Nowizard » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:06 am

Toyota or Honda automobiles, and Kinsale (Irish company) crystal tumblers and glassware for drinking whatever alcoholic beverages you prefer.

Tim

jpdion
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by jpdion » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:24 am

MrJones wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:19 pm
Briggs and Riley suitcases. You buy them for life. You don't have to worry about them breaking down during a trip.
++++ Won't buy anything else again -- won't have to!

Leesbro63
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Leesbro63 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:24 am

LifeIsGood wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:12 am
Thermapen digital thermometer. Fast reading and very accurate. Love it!
I read about Thermapen here on Bogleheads a number of years ago. I never had any interest or ability to cook, but with the Thermapen I've learned! I wouldn't be without it.

DaftInvestor
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:37 am

Lot's of good suggestions already. A couple more:

- Weber Grill - will last for decades. Buy a different brand and be prepared to replace. There are entire threads on this here.
- Tumi laptop bags - only replace to get new styles and configurations since they last nearly forever.
- Name brand quality camera lenses. I know folks that buy the best camera for thousands then slap a cheap lens on it - should be the other way around if they can't afford quality for both. The lens quality if more important than the body quality.

Item I don't agree with that many like is Apple laptops. I can't bring myself to spend twice the money for half the performance. There are other quality brands out there that can last several years and save you many hundreds.

sport
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by sport » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:53 am

tibbitts wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:14 am
sport wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:48 pm
Hand tools. If a cheap one breaks, you might get injured. In addition, they always break on a Sunday.
What brands do you buy?
I have not bought any for a long time because I already have all that I need. When I did buy them, I bought Craftsman when they were available only at Sears. I don't know if today's Craftsman products are still as good as they were then.

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David Jay
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by David Jay » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:15 am

Here’s my ditty on the subject:

The last time you regret buying quality is at the cash register.
The last time you are glad you bought junk is at the cash register.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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BogleMelon
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by BogleMelon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:17 am

David Jay wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:15 am
Here’s my ditty on the subject:

The last time you regret buying quality is at the cash register.
The last time you are glad you bought junk is at the cash register.
Quote of the day award! :sharebeer
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:31 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:37 am
- Name brand quality camera lenses. I know folks that buy the best camera for thousands then slap a cheap lens on it - should be the other way around if they can't afford quality for both. The lens quality if more important than the body quality.
My two Nikon f2.8 zoom lenses have been on 3 different Nikon camera bodies so far; there is no reason to want to "upgrade" them. As far as a lens outlasting a body, the sad joke is that they will probably outlast my body's ability to carry them :D . Glass is heavy!

ETA: let me add one thing to the list: Kona coffee beans. Life is too short to drink bad coffee.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

stoptothink
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:35 am

H-Town wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:19 pm
BogleMelon wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am
What products in life that worth buying the "flagship" version of them?
My own experience: I bought the following item as "budget" AKA cheap and regretted it
- Brand new Moto G5 plus. Now that I switched to Pixel 2 (bought used) I see a huge difference in speed and performance.
- I tried the Nespresso pods (came free when bought the maker), and the flavor was so rich and amazing. I then refilled with Amazon cheaper pods with 4+ reviews, I felt a huge downgrade, and the coffee tasted as if it is another regular brewed coffee but just darker (bitter or burned taste). Ordered again Nespresso and waiting for it to be delivered.
- Budget car (AKA used Hyundai) because at that time I didn't have the money to buy a "relatively flagship" car (AKA Toyota), now I regret the decision whenever I have to pay $$ in repairs every year because of the cheap materials of the Hyundai. Had I bought a Toyota or Honda from the beginning, it would be a better financial decision in the long run.
- Building a computer case years ago, I decided to go with a generic power supply, since then, almost every game I play, the computer restarts itself after 30 minutes of playing or so (No, the processor is not overheating). After researching, I decided to go with a quality power supply to provide the PC with needed wattage. Ordered and waiting for delivery, hoping that should fix the issue forever.
- A budget dash cam, 2 years now and its internal battery is dead making the date reset every time I start the car. Unfortunately, I can not justify paying over $300 for a flagship one. And I couldn't find a reasonable used one on eBay, So I will replace it with another budget one for now (with capacitor though instead of battery)

That makes think, what kind of other products we would be better buying as flagship (even used, if one can not afford them new) better than buying a brand new budget version of the same product?
Personally, I rarely see any added value of those "flagship" items. The only exception is that I will buy items that will give me the longest life of utility. If you take out brand recognition associating with an item, the value of that item is simply the cost divided by the total years of utility.

Aside from that, anything that is "more than standard" item (luxury car, high-end coffee, powerful computer, etc.) is just a luxury item. You pay for your own enjoyment. It's your own perceived value of the "flagship" version of the item for the amount you paid for it. Everyone has different taste though. Some like luxury cars and some like traveling.

P.S.: Toyota and Hyundai are the same class as far as I concern.

In general, I really take care of my possessions. Things miraculously last way longer when I buy them than for others (very much including my wife). I regularly wear work dress shoes that are 20+ years old and still look great, I used the same Ipod shuffle for a decade until I finally got a smartphone 2yrs ago, I've never had reliability issues with a car (our last was a Hyundai that we spent $0 on non-regular maintenance in 7yrs, current VW has zero issues in 3yrs), etc. So, I'm not too concerned about buying something that is the "highest quality", because even a budget item will last with me.

H-Town
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by H-Town » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:48 am

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:35 am
H-Town wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:19 pm
Personally, I rarely see any added value of those "flagship" items. The only exception is that I will buy items that will give me the longest life of utility. If you take out brand recognition associating with an item, the value of that item is simply the cost divided by the total years of utility.

Aside from that, anything that is "more than standard" item (luxury car, high-end coffee, powerful computer, etc.) is just a luxury item. You pay for your own enjoyment. It's your own perceived value of the "flagship" version of the item for the amount you paid for it. Everyone has different taste though. Some like luxury cars and some like traveling.

P.S.: Toyota and Hyundai are the same class as far as I concern.

In general, I really take care of my possessions. Things miraculously last way longer when I buy them than for others (very much including my wife). I regularly wear work dress shoes that are 20+ years old and still look great, I used the same Ipod shuffle for a decade until I finally got a smartphone 2yrs ago, I've never had reliability issues with a car (our last was a Hyundai that we spent $0 on non-regular maintenance in 7yrs, current VW has zero issues in 3yrs), etc. So, I'm not too concerned about buying something that is the "highest quality", because even a budget item will last with me.
Same here. Not quite that many years, but those items last me as long as I can remember.

Lots of it has to do with doing research and sitting on it before making a purchase decision. Some people might not find much value in doing so. But it helps me buying only things I need, as well as buying well reviewed items.

Glockenspiel
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Glockenspiel » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:49 am

mikemikemike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:51 am
I cook a lot and a decent chef's knife is definitely worth the extra $$ (to me).
This is a good one and I agree. I always find it hilarious when well-to-do people have a block with 25 different low quality knives (probably $300 for the set) on their kitchen counter. A person really only needs 1-3 knives for cooking. Spend $70-$120 on a quality chef’s knife and it will be the knife you use 90% of the time. Hand wash and place back into it’s home. It will also last a lifetime if you take care of it.

Sic Vis Pacem
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Sic Vis Pacem » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:52 am

High quality luggage (Briggs & Riley or TravelPro). Lifetime warranty and never worry about it again. I prefer the B&R, my wife has a few sizes of TravelPro.

Used Osprey/Dueter/Berghaus hiking packs. It seems tons of people buy these for one-off trips (Machu Picchu or the like) and then sell a few years later barely used.

Herman Miller office chair (and someone versed enough in ergonomics to get it set jussstttt rightttt).

Leesbro63
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Leesbro63 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:57 am

Bounty paper towels.

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alpenglow
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by alpenglow » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:24 am

Sic Vis Pacem wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:52 am
Herman Miller office chair (and someone versed enough in ergonomics to get it set jussstttt rightttt).
I used to have an Aeron chair when I worked on Wall Street and I still miss it. The crap chairs in public schools are awful.

I guess this is what happens when you go from trader to teacher.

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BogleFanGal
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by BogleFanGal » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:58 am

I'll second an earlier poster's "window tint" for vehicles. Probably not as big a deal in milder climates, but in extremely warm climates, there's a big difference in the heat blocked between cheaper stuff and better quality materials in your car.
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen." Mark Twain

TheOscarGuy
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by TheOscarGuy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:22 pm

alpenglow wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:24 am
Sic Vis Pacem wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:52 am
Herman Miller office chair (and someone versed enough in ergonomics to get it set jussstttt rightttt).
I used to have an Aeron chair when I worked on Wall Street and I still miss it. The crap chairs in public schools are awful.

I guess this is what happens when you go from trader to teacher.
But you have more inner peace, perhaps, not being a trader? :happy

Caduceus
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Caduceus » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:33 pm

I like good toilet paper rather than the thin, cheap kind. And good toilet paper is significantly more expensive. But other than that, it is quite hard to think about when buying more expensive is better.

michaeljc70
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:50 pm

-Dishwasher. If it doesn't clean good, it is useless.
-Range. High output burners and even oven make a big difference if you cook a lot.
-Some power tools. If it is something I will use here and there, I buy cheaper. If it is something I will use over and over, it is worth getting better.
-Car. Not necessarily "flagship", but comfortable and reliable and safe. Avoiding the bottom half in ranking.
-Parmigiano reggiano. The difference between the real stuff from Italy and garbage from grocery store is unbelievable. The same applies for a few other pricey ingredients.

travellight
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by travellight » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:02 pm

Quality over cheap? Fresh squeezed orange juice.

+1 on Nespresso as well.
364

Barsoom
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Barsoom » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:07 pm

When I was younger and not married (25 years ago), I bought a set of good Calphalon cookware to teach myself to cook real meals instead of single serve bachelor food.

I figured I didn't want to learn on the cheap stuff, or I'd learn bad cooking habits. I still have the cookware, but it's probably time to upgrade them again.

-B

Leesbro63
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Leesbro63 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:24 pm

Barsoom wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:07 pm
When I was younger and not married (25 years ago), I bought a set of good Calphalon cookware to teach myself to cook real meals instead of single serve bachelor food.

I figured I didn't want to learn on the cheap stuff, or I'd learn bad cooking habits. I still have the cookware, but it's probably time to upgrade them again.

-B
All-Clad

Starfish
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Starfish » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm

Glockenspiel wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:49 am
mikemikemike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:51 am
I cook a lot and a decent chef's knife is definitely worth the extra $$ (to me).
This is a good one and I agree. I always find it hilarious when well-to-do people have a block with 25 different low quality knives (probably $300 for the set) on their kitchen counter. A person really only needs 1-3 knives for cooking. Spend $70-$120 on a quality chef’s knife and it will be the knife you use 90% of the time. Hand wash and place back into it’s home. It will also last a lifetime if you take care of it.
I have a different opinion.
I laugh when I see Japanese knifes in kitchens of people who did not cook much in their entire life from scratch.
Is the same with expensive pots. The best way to get fancy pots is at yard sales where a 2-300$ pot goes for 10$, used only few times or never.
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.

supalong52
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by supalong52 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:32 pm

I would say almost anything from furniture to cars to suits, etc. is better as used high-quality than budget. Budget items are usually no-go for us. I'd rather pay a little more for quality, especially for an item we want to last. So for us, the question is usually is it worth it to buy new or is used OK.

Examples:

Furniture -- bought sofa, leather chairs, and dining chairs used. Bought dining table new because we didn't feel like renting a truck and lugging someone else's table back to our house.
Car -- bought last one new because we wanted Android Auto / Apple Car Play.
Suits -- bought used Canali and Zegna suits, but the fit was not 100% and could not get it altered to be 100%. But still better than some scratchy ill-fitting suit from Men's Wearhouse or someplace like that. Still re-sold those suits for at least as much as I paid for them.
Kitchen appliances -- bought cooktop, oven, and microwave as display units / refurb. Bought range hood new.

stoptothink
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:33 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Glockenspiel wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:49 am
mikemikemike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:51 am
I cook a lot and a decent chef's knife is definitely worth the extra $$ (to me).
This is a good one and I agree. I always find it hilarious when well-to-do people have a block with 25 different low quality knives (probably $300 for the set) on their kitchen counter. A person really only needs 1-3 knives for cooking. Spend $70-$120 on a quality chef’s knife and it will be the knife you use 90% of the time. Hand wash and place back into it’s home. It will also last a lifetime if you take care of it.
I have a different opinion.
I laugh when I see Japanese knifes in kitchens of people who did not cook much in their entire life from scratch.
Is the same with expensive pots. The best way to get fancy pots is at yard sales where a 2-300$ pot goes for 10$, used only few times or never.
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
I'm far from a gourmet chef, but about 99% of our family meals are cooked at home and the huge majority by your's truly. Our knives are cheapy hand-me-downs from my brother. I have never really understood the whole expensive kitchen knives thing, either they cut your food or they don't. And yes, I have tried them, as my brother gave us his old ones when he blew a ridiculous sum on some new ones.

Starfish
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Starfish » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm

I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?

michaeljc70
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:47 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
I interpreted it to be when is it worth spending more. Flagship doesn't really equate. What is the "flagship" car? There can be a dozen legitimate answers. Who makes the best knives? Best appliances? Best clothes? It is all open to interpretation.

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BogleMelon
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by BogleMelon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:50 pm

supalong52 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:32 pm
I would say almost anything from furniture to cars to suits, etc. is better as used high-quality than budget. Budget items are usually no-go for us. I'd rather pay a little more for quality, especially for an item we want to last. So for us, the question is usually is it worth it to buy new or is used OK.

Examples:

Furniture -- bought sofa, leather chairs, and dining chairs used. Bought dining table new because we didn't feel like renting a truck and lugging someone else's table back to our house.
Car -- bought last one new because we wanted Android Auto / Apple Car Play.
Suits -- bought used Canali and Zegna suits, but the fit was not 100% and could not get it altered to be 100%. But still better than some scratchy ill-fitting suit from Men's Wearhouse or someplace like that. Still re-sold those suits for at least as much as I paid for them.
Kitchen appliances -- bought cooktop, oven, and microwave as display units / refurb. Bought range hood new.
Where can you find used quality suits? Do you try them before you pay?
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather

Topic Author
BogleMelon
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by BogleMelon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
As I mentioned in my post: Hyundai!
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather

Starfish
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Starfish » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:33 pm
I'm far from a gourmet chef, but about 99% of our family meals are cooked at home and the huge majority by your's truly. Our knives are cheapy hand-me-downs from my brother. I have never really understood the whole expensive kitchen knives thing, either they cut your food or they don't. And yes, I have tried them, as my brother gave us his old ones when he blew a ridiculous sum on some new ones.
I think here is the difference.
Some people want to cook food at good restaurant level, and some do it ofetn.
My wife and me have no intention to do that. We cook home cooked food. It is different than restaurant food and it is lower effort and we cook only 1-2-3 times a week. It is healthy - much healthier than restaurants - and tasty enough. I don't need 300$ pots and 200$ knives for that.
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
As I mentioned in my post: Hyundai!
It's in the same category/price range....

Starfish
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Starfish » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:55 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:47 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
I interpreted it to be when is it worth spending more. Flagship doesn't really equate. What is the "flagship" car? There can be a dozen legitimate answers. Who makes the best knives? Best appliances? Best clothes? It is all open to interpretation.
For cars it's pretty obvious. There are low end cars, premium, luxury. Basic Honda and Toyotas are low end.

Topic Author
BogleMelon
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by BogleMelon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:59 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:33 pm
I'm far from a gourmet chef, but about 99% of our family meals are cooked at home and the huge majority by your's truly. Our knives are cheapy hand-me-downs from my brother. I have never really understood the whole expensive kitchen knives thing, either they cut your food or they don't. And yes, I have tried them, as my brother gave us his old ones when he blew a ridiculous sum on some new ones.
I think here is the difference.
Some people want to cook food at good restaurant level, and some do it ofetn.
My wife and me have no intention to do that. We cook home cooked food. It is different than restaurant food and it is lower effort and we cook only 1-2-3 times a week. It is healthy - much healthier than restaurants - and tasty enough. I don't need 300$ pots and 200$ knives for that.
BogleMelon wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:51 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
As I mentioned in my post: Hyundai!
It's in the same category/price range....
May be MSRP (brand new prices are the same range), but when I bought my used Sonata back then there was a difference in prices between the 2. Toyota's holding their value pretty well, meanwhile Hyundai is depreciating really fast. I now can see why
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather

michaeljc70
Posts: 5823
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:03 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:33 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Glockenspiel wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:49 am
mikemikemike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:51 am
I cook a lot and a decent chef's knife is definitely worth the extra $$ (to me).
This is a good one and I agree. I always find it hilarious when well-to-do people have a block with 25 different low quality knives (probably $300 for the set) on their kitchen counter. A person really only needs 1-3 knives for cooking. Spend $70-$120 on a quality chef’s knife and it will be the knife you use 90% of the time. Hand wash and place back into it’s home. It will also last a lifetime if you take care of it.
I have a different opinion.
I laugh when I see Japanese knifes in kitchens of people who did not cook much in their entire life from scratch.
Is the same with expensive pots. The best way to get fancy pots is at yard sales where a 2-300$ pot goes for 10$, used only few times or never.
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
I'm far from a gourmet chef, but about 99% of our family meals are cooked at home and the huge majority by your's truly. Our knives are cheapy hand-me-downs from my brother. I have never really understood the whole expensive kitchen knives thing, either they cut your food or they don't. And yes, I have tried them, as my brother gave us his old ones when he blew a ridiculous sum on some new ones.
Try dicing a tomato with a cheap dull knife compared to a sharp, decent knife. You likely will just crush it with a dull knife if it is at all ripe.

You don't need to spend a fortune to have a good, sharp knife. Most people (I think of my parents) have a block of knives and that haven't been sharpened in the 10 years since they got them.

I buy a few brands at discount stores or online (Henckels, Wusthof, Victoinox) and sharpen them myself once in a while. You really only need 3 knives (chef, paring, serrated). I use a chef's knife 90% of the time. A boning knife is also nice to have.

I think similarly for pots. Tri-ply is great. They don't have to be All-Clad and cost an arm and a leg. You can get whole set for around $100. Pots with a disc glued to the bottom are awful and burn things at the edge and have thin sides.

lazydavid
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by lazydavid » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
You are very, very, VERY wrong. Anyone with experience will tell you that a sharp knife is a safe knife. The reason you cut yourself periodically is because you are using cheap dull knives. You have to use a lot more force than you would with a sharper knife, and are more imprecise as a result. This results in a knife that is more likely to slip and cut you.

I very rarely cut myself, but when I do, it's invariably with a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a while.

stoptothink
Posts: 6545
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:03 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:33 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Glockenspiel wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:49 am
mikemikemike wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:51 am
I cook a lot and a decent chef's knife is definitely worth the extra $$ (to me).
This is a good one and I agree. I always find it hilarious when well-to-do people have a block with 25 different low quality knives (probably $300 for the set) on their kitchen counter. A person really only needs 1-3 knives for cooking. Spend $70-$120 on a quality chef’s knife and it will be the knife you use 90% of the time. Hand wash and place back into it’s home. It will also last a lifetime if you take care of it.
I have a different opinion.
I laugh when I see Japanese knifes in kitchens of people who did not cook much in their entire life from scratch.
Is the same with expensive pots. The best way to get fancy pots is at yard sales where a 2-300$ pot goes for 10$, used only few times or never.
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
I'm far from a gourmet chef, but about 99% of our family meals are cooked at home and the huge majority by your's truly. Our knives are cheapy hand-me-downs from my brother. I have never really understood the whole expensive kitchen knives thing, either they cut your food or they don't. And yes, I have tried them, as my brother gave us his old ones when he blew a ridiculous sum on some new ones.
Try dicing a tomato with a cheap dull knife compared to a sharp, decent knife. You likely will just crush it with a dull knife if it is at all ripe.

You don't need to spend a fortune to have a good, sharp knife. Most people (I think of my parents) have a block of knives and that haven't been sharpened in the 10 years since they got them.

I buy a few brands at discount stores or online (Henckels, Wusthof, Victoinox) and sharpen them myself once in a while. You really only need 3 knives (chef, paring, serrated). I use a chef's knife 90% of the time. A boning knife is also nice to have.

I think similarly for pots. Tri-ply is great. They don't have to be All-Clad and cost an arm and a leg. You can get whole set for around $100. Pots with a disc glued to the bottom are awful and burn things at the edge and have thin sides.
That's the thing, we have cheapy 2nd hand knives and they cut tomatoes (or fresh made bread or various cuts of meat) great. I honestly don't think I've ever had an experience in the kitchen where our knives weren't sufficient.

Woodshark
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Woodshark » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:17 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
You are very, very, VERY wrong. Anyone with experience will tell you that a sharp knife is a safe knife. The reason you cut yourself periodically is because you are using cheap dull knives. You have to use a lot more force than you would with a sharper knife, and are more imprecise as a result. This results in a knife that is more likely to slip and cut you.

I very rarely cut myself, but when I do, it's invariably with a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a while.
I second this. Cheap knifes don't hold an edge. A dull knife is a dangerous knife.

michaeljc70
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:19 pm

Woodshark wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:17 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
You are very, very, VERY wrong. Anyone with experience will tell you that a sharp knife is a safe knife. The reason you cut yourself periodically is because you are using cheap dull knives. You have to use a lot more force than you would with a sharper knife, and are more imprecise as a result. This results in a knife that is more likely to slip and cut you.

I very rarely cut myself, but when I do, it's invariably with a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a while.
I second this. Cheap knifes don't hold an edge. A dull knife is a dangerous knife.
I agree. Comments they are all the same remind of when someone says they stay at Holiday Inns because hotels are all the same or why buy a Mercedes as all cars get you to where you are going.

randomguy
Posts: 8418
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by randomguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:17 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:19 pm
Woodshark wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:17 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
You are very, very, VERY wrong. Anyone with experience will tell you that a sharp knife is a safe knife. The reason you cut yourself periodically is because you are using cheap dull knives. You have to use a lot more force than you would with a sharper knife, and are more imprecise as a result. This results in a knife that is more likely to slip and cut you.

I very rarely cut myself, but when I do, it's invariably with a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a while.
I second this. Cheap knifes don't hold an edge. A dull knife is a dangerous knife.
I agree. Comments they are all the same remind of when someone says they stay at Holiday Inns because hotels are all the same or why buy a Mercedes as all cars get you to where you are going.
This is a poor question. Your choices in life aren't to buy a budget 10 dollar knife or a 300 dollar flagship one. You can buy a nice 75 dollar one that will keep an edge and exceed pretty much every cooking demand imaginable.

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ChowYunPhat
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by ChowYunPhat » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:37 pm

Going to steer clear of the knife debate. However, I've found there to be a number of tools where quality makes a difference in how long work takes...and the quality. This is a short list and there are many many more you could add.

Tile saw and a quality blade
Chainsaw (small or low price tend to have issues starting after extended use)
Pneumatic nailers (cheap ones misfire)
Tape measures
On the cooking list...a quality mandolin vs. a knife for scalloped potatoes. Yes, I make these once a month on the grill.
And the list goes on and on....

Would also add, picking up many quality tools used can be better than buying a new cheaper brand.
A wise man and his money are friends forever...

7eight9
Posts: 436
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by 7eight9 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:42 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
In the Japanese market Toyota does produce what most anyone would consider a flagship car - the Century.

The Toyota Century (Japanese: トヨタ センチュリー Toyota Senchurī) is a large four-door limousine produced mainly for the Japanese market, serving as Toyota's flagship car within Japan; globally the unrelated Lexus LS series is Toyota's flagship luxury model outside Japan. ... The Century is comparable in purpose to the Austin Princess/Daimler DS420, Cadillac Series 70, Mercedes-Benz 600, Chinese Red Flag, Rolls-Royce, and Russian ZIS/ZIL limousines.

Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century

There are few vehicles in the world that can compete with the Toyota Century. If I'm not mistaken Toyota only makes around 600 a year. The last time I saw one was in Ginza (driver waiting on the curb outside Ginza INZ department store).
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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whodidntante
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by whodidntante » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:45 pm

CommitmentDevice wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:25 am
Used to buy cheap vacuum cleaners and they'd suck
Sounds like you bought a good vacuum then. :happy

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whodidntante
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by whodidntante » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:55 pm
Basic Honda and Toyotas are low end.
Top of the line Hondas and Toyotas are low end.

7eight9
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by 7eight9 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:01 pm

whodidntante wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:55 pm
Basic Honda and Toyotas are low end.
Top of the line Hondas and Toyotas are low end.
Top of the line Toyota is app. $180,000. If that is low end then what is high end?

Link - https://www.cnet.com/toyota-century/
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

michaeljc70
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:04 pm

randomguy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:17 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:19 pm
Woodshark wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:17 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
You are very, very, VERY wrong. Anyone with experience will tell you that a sharp knife is a safe knife. The reason you cut yourself periodically is because you are using cheap dull knives. You have to use a lot more force than you would with a sharper knife, and are more imprecise as a result. This results in a knife that is more likely to slip and cut you.

I very rarely cut myself, but when I do, it's invariably with a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a while.
I second this. Cheap knifes don't hold an edge. A dull knife is a dangerous knife.
I agree. Comments they are all the same remind of when someone says they stay at Holiday Inns because hotels are all the same or why buy a Mercedes as all cars get you to where you are going.
This is a poor question. Your choices in life aren't to buy a budget 10 dollar knife or a 300 dollar flagship one. You can buy a nice 75 dollar one that will keep an edge and exceed pretty much every cooking demand imaginable.
I think that is what I said above....I was referring to a very cheap (and dull) knife.
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:03 pm


You don't need to spend a fortune to have a good, sharp knife. Most people (I think of my parents) have a block of knives and that haven't been sharpened in the 10 years since they got them.

I buy a few brands at discount stores or online (Henckels, Wusthof, Victoinox) and sharpen them myself once in a while. You really only need 3 knives (chef, paring, serrated). I use a chef's knife 90% of the time. A boning knife is also nice to have.

randomguy
Posts: 8418
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by randomguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:12 pm

7eight9 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:42 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
In the Japanese market Toyota does produce what most anyone would consider a flagship car - the Century.

I don't consider an 85k Landcruiser low end either.:)

Toyota/Honda are definitely not low end cars. Kias, Hyundais, american cars, mitsubishi, and the rest all the cars that peple with no cash buy. Honda/Toyota are several thousand more for the same car.

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alpenglow
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by alpenglow » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:27 pm

TheOscarGuy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:22 pm
alpenglow wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:24 am
Sic Vis Pacem wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:52 am
Herman Miller office chair (and someone versed enough in ergonomics to get it set jussstttt rightttt).
I used to have an Aeron chair when I worked on Wall Street and I still miss it. The crap chairs in public schools are awful.

I guess this is what happens when you go from trader to teacher.
But you have more inner peace, perhaps, not being a trader? :happy
That's debatable. :twisted:

Seriously though, I really like teaching most of the time.

Starfish
Posts: 1465
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Starfish » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:02 pm

7eight9 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:42 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
In the Japanese market Toyota does produce what most anyone would consider a flagship car - the Century.

The Toyota Century (Japanese: トヨタ センチュリー Toyota Senchurī) is a large four-door limousine produced mainly for the Japanese market, serving as Toyota's flagship car within Japan; globally the unrelated Lexus LS series is Toyota's flagship luxury model outside Japan. ... The Century is comparable in purpose to the Austin Princess/Daimler DS420, Cadillac Series 70, Mercedes-Benz 600, Chinese Red Flag, Rolls-Royce, and Russian ZIS/ZIL limousines.

Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century

There are few vehicles in the world that can compete with the Toyota Century. If I'm not mistaken Toyota only makes around 600 a year. The last time I saw one was in Ginza (driver waiting on the curb outside Ginza INZ department store).
Interesting information but useless and off topic.
I want to see a single boglehead who owns a Toyota Century.

Starfish
Posts: 1465
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Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by Starfish » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:14 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:10 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm
Cooking efficiently in a house does not require expensive knifes. But expensive knives are very dangerous and slow down many operations. I cut myself periodically, and i am very happy I don't have an expensive knife.

Now if you take cooking at a passion level the conclusion is very different. But as long as cooking is a chore done 2-3 times a week, cheap blunt knives are the way to go.
You are very, very, VERY wrong. Anyone with experience will tell you that a sharp knife is a safe knife. The reason you cut yourself periodically is because you are using cheap dull knives. You have to use a lot more force than you would with a sharper knife, and are more imprecise as a result. This results in a knife that is more likely to slip and cut you.

I very rarely cut myself, but when I do, it's invariably with a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a while.
I have been cooking for more than 25 years or more and cutting stuff for 10-15 years more. I think I have a lot of experience.
Last time I cut myself pretty badly with a very sharp knife, so no, is not because the knife is dull.
In my opinion everybody who things is good to have sharp knives:
1. is a professional or very advanced hobbyist
2. doesn't really cook, or cooks occasionally very simple foods and takes a lot of time

Go in a Italian or French household and look at what knives grandma uses. My grandma had a decades old knife and cooked much better food and faster that all my friends with their Japanese or German steel and fancy pots who need a youtube video to make an omelette and can't open a can without a can opener :D
Last edited by Starfish on Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7eight9
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?

Post by 7eight9 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:20 pm

Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:02 pm
7eight9 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:42 pm
Starfish wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
I find funny that most car examples are completely opposed to the title.
I mean come on, what is lower than hondas and toyotas?
In the Japanese market Toyota does produce what most anyone would consider a flagship car - the Century.

The Toyota Century (Japanese: トヨタ センチュリー Toyota Senchurī) is a large four-door limousine produced mainly for the Japanese market, serving as Toyota's flagship car within Japan; globally the unrelated Lexus LS series is Toyota's flagship luxury model outside Japan. ... The Century is comparable in purpose to the Austin Princess/Daimler DS420, Cadillac Series 70, Mercedes-Benz 600, Chinese Red Flag, Rolls-Royce, and Russian ZIS/ZIL limousines.

Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century

There are few vehicles in the world that can compete with the Toyota Century. If I'm not mistaken Toyota only makes around 600 a year. The last time I saw one was in Ginza (driver waiting on the curb outside Ginza INZ department store).
Interesting information but useless and off topic.
I want to see a single boglehead who owns a Toyota Century.
Respectfully I would disagree. The question posed was "What flagship (even used) item is better than a budget new item?".

A used Toyota Century (flagship item) would be superior to a budget new item.

Whether or not a boglehead owns a Toyota Century is off topic.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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