Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

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dknightd
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by dknightd » Tue May 14, 2019 6:15 pm

jebmke wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:44 pm
dknightd wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:53 am
The question is who will get your withholding "close" and who will see that your taxes are filed and that the refund makes it to your bank? Ultimately life is not d-i-y.
If my wife or I have to hire a tax person, we will.
I am a trained preparer so I do our taxes -- and likely will for many more years (knock on wood). But I have already identified a local firm that my spouse can hand things off to in case I become incapacitated or worse.
We have a pretty simple tax return. And it will get more simple. If neither of us can fill numbers into tax software, then hit submit, I suspect taxes will be the least of our concerns.

Edit. I think for $500 in today's dollars H&R block, or similar, could do a good enough job. If that is what it costs. I think we are both OK spending that

tibbitts
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by tibbitts » Tue May 14, 2019 7:21 pm

dknightd wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:15 pm
jebmke wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:44 pm
dknightd wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am
tibbitts wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:53 am
The question is who will get your withholding "close" and who will see that your taxes are filed and that the refund makes it to your bank? Ultimately life is not d-i-y.
If my wife or I have to hire a tax person, we will.
I am a trained preparer so I do our taxes -- and likely will for many more years (knock on wood). But I have already identified a local firm that my spouse can hand things off to in case I become incapacitated or worse.
We have a pretty simple tax return. And it will get more simple. If neither of us can fill numbers into tax software, then hit submit, I suspect taxes will be the least of our concerns.

Edit. I think for $500 in today's dollars H&R block, or similar, could do a good enough job. If that is what it costs. I think we are both OK spending that
I think the issue is that you have to have pretty frequent interaction with somebody who you trust to tell you when you can't do things like taxes, because there will probably be a time between when you aren't doing them correctly and recognize (if you ever do) that you aren't.

boomer_techie
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by boomer_techie » Tue May 14, 2019 7:27 pm

Bongleur wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:15 am
So is there really any option but to buy an SPIA when there's nobody left to run your SWR system? Note that by the time you realize (or are told) that you can't handle it yourself anymore, you are no longer competent to legally decide which professional SWR system is best for you -- which amounts to choosing the professional, since there are many professional tools they can subscribe to.
When you've had enough cognitive decline that you can't manage withdrawal rate changes, then you also won't be able to manage spending changes. You will not be deciding that "the market did good this past year, we can take a trip to Europe this summer." Instead, your biggest financial decision will be whether to order a piece of pie with your lunch today, or to put it off till tomorrow's visit to the diner. In short, you'll be on a fixed expenditure plan. Your last coherent planning merely needs to put you at a sustainable expenditure level.

dknightd
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by dknightd » Tue May 14, 2019 8:16 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:21 pm

I think the issue is that you have to have pretty frequent interaction with somebody who you trust to tell you when you can't do things like taxes, because there will probably be a time between when you aren't doing them correctly and recognize (if you ever do) that you aren't.
I'm pretty sure that the IRS will let me know if I'm doing them wrong.
If that time comes, and I can not figure what they did wrong, I'll hire an expert.
I hope Mom and Dad do the same thing. They might be getting close

Ykcor
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by Ykcor » Wed May 15, 2019 9:00 pm

Sorry to sound stupid, but what does "SWR" stand for?

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willthrill81
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:02 pm

Ykcor wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:00 pm
Sorry to sound stupid, but what does "SWR" stand for?
Safe withdrawal rate. It's not a stupid question at all; we toss out acronyms here like candy at Halloween. It refers to using a fixed real dollar withdrawal strategy (i.e. withdraw X dollar at the beginning of retirement and then withdraw that same amount, adjusted for inflation, every subsequent year.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Bongleur
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by Bongleur » Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:52 pm
...I can just have Vanguard automatically sell whatever's necessary to cover my RMDs...likely let our Roth accounts ride
But who decided WHICH assets to sell? If & when to rebalance?
Seeking Iso-Elasticity. | Tax Loss Harvesting is an Asset Class. | A well-planned presentation creates a sense of urgency. If the prospect fails to act now, he will risk a loss of some sort.

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willthrill81
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 22, 2019 11:27 am

Bongleur wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:52 pm
...I can just have Vanguard automatically sell whatever's necessary to cover my RMDs...likely let our Roth accounts ride
But who decided WHICH assets to sell? If & when to rebalance?
By my understanding, they will rebalance for you and sell a proportionate amount of each asset to produce your withdrawals. If you want to maintain a fixed AA, this is fine. If you want a dynamic AA (e.g. you don't want to sell any stocks if they're down more than 20%), then this won't work.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

EyeDee
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Vanguard Proportionate Withdrawal Service

Post by EyeDee » Wed May 22, 2019 6:36 pm

.
Willthrill81,

Can you provide a link or more detail about where you got the your information on "rebalance" and a "proportionate" amount of each asset to produce your withdrawals?

My understanding from contacting Vanguard in 2013 is different - that even Vanguard automatic Required Minimum Distribution service withdrawals still might require considerable action by the account holder.

From my Email to Vanguard: ". . . So what happens if using Vanguard's "Proportionately" option and a fund goes below the needed amount because of MARKET CHANGES before a withdrawal is done?

For example, if one is taking RMD quarterly and a fund's value drops below its share of one's plan assets as of December 31 of the previous year, when it is time to take third quarter withdrawals what happens?

Please remember I am looking for what will happen automatically if this occurs after we are TOO OLD to notice a discrepancy or a message from Vanguard that requires some action."

From Vanguard's reply: ". . . while we have provided information on your question, we would like to caution you that as we are always looking for ways to make investing easier for our clients, the options and services we offer now may change by the time you are eligible to use our Required Minimum Distribution Service. It is also possible for RMD rules to change in the future based on IRS rules.

The options we offer for distributions that are done as a part of the Required Minimum Distribution Service are designed to determine the amounts that would be taken on the schedule you establish. Please note, the RMD amount that is calculated using the December 31 balance and the life expectancy factor for your age. If you were to choose to have the RMD taken proportionately from the funds, at the time you establish the service and then as of January 1 of each year we will review the balance in each fund to determine the amounts to withdraw for the proportional option. If you were then to make changes to the balances within the funds we would recommend having your service updated as the proportions will remain based on the January 1 calculation and not take into consideration any changes you made to the funds.

If you have concerns of being able to manager your accounts and would like to designate someone to act on your behalf, you can allow another individual to have limited or full authorization to your accounts online using either of these options: . . ."


willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 11:27 am
Bongleur wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:52 pm
...I can just have Vanguard automatically sell whatever's necessary to cover my RMDs...likely let our Roth accounts ride
But who decided WHICH assets to sell? If & when to rebalance?
By my understanding, they will rebalance for you and sell a proportionate amount of each asset to produce your withdrawals. If you want to maintain a fixed AA, this is fine. If you want a dynamic AA (e.g. you don't want to sell any stocks if they're down more than 20%), then this won't work.
Randy

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willthrill81
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Re: Vanguard Proportionate Withdrawal Service

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 22, 2019 6:50 pm

EyeDee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:36 pm
.
Willthrill81,

Can you provide a link or more detail about where you got the your information on "rebalance" and a "proportionate" amount of each asset to produce your withdrawals?

My understanding from contacting Vanguard in 2013 is different - that even Vanguard automatic Required Minimum Distribution service withdrawals still might require considerable action by the account holder.

From my Email to Vanguard: ". . . So what happens if using Vanguard's "Proportionately" option and a fund goes below the needed amount because of MARKET CHANGES before a withdrawal is done?

For example, if one is taking RMD quarterly and a fund's value drops below its share of one's plan assets as of December 31 of the previous year, when it is time to take third quarter withdrawals what happens?

Please remember I am looking for what will happen automatically if this occurs after we are TOO OLD to notice a discrepancy or a message from Vanguard that requires some action."

From Vanguard's reply: ". . . while we have provided information on your question, we would like to caution you that as we are always looking for ways to make investing easier for our clients, the options and services we offer now may change by the time you are eligible to use our Required Minimum Distribution Service. It is also possible for RMD rules to change in the future based on IRS rules.

The options we offer for distributions that are done as a part of the Required Minimum Distribution Service are designed to determine the amounts that would be taken on the schedule you establish. Please note, the RMD amount that is calculated using the December 31 balance and the life expectancy factor for your age. If you were to choose to have the RMD taken proportionately from the funds, at the time you establish the service and then as of January 1 of each year we will review the balance in each fund to determine the amounts to withdraw for the proportional option. If you were then to make changes to the balances within the funds we would recommend having your service updated as the proportions will remain based on the January 1 calculation and not take into consideration any changes you made to the funds.

If you have concerns of being able to manager your accounts and would like to designate someone to act on your behalf, you can allow another individual to have limited or full authorization to your accounts online using either of these options: . . ."


willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 11:27 am
Bongleur wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:52 pm
...I can just have Vanguard automatically sell whatever's necessary to cover my RMDs...likely let our Roth accounts ride
But who decided WHICH assets to sell? If & when to rebalance?
By my understanding, they will rebalance for you and sell a proportionate amount of each asset to produce your withdrawals. If you want to maintain a fixed AA, this is fine. If you want a dynamic AA (e.g. you don't want to sell any stocks if they're down more than 20%), then this won't work.
What I relayed was merely my understanding of what Vanguard did as indicated by what others have done. You might want to start a new thread regarding this topic if you want more detailed information. All that needs to be done is for (1) your holdings to be rebalanced according to your desired AA and (2) a proportionate amount of each asset is sold to satisfy your RMDs. Regarding #2, let's say that your desired AA is 60/40. Immediately after your funds are rebalanced, you need a 4% RMD withdrawn. 60% of that 4% (i.e. 2.4% of your portfolio) should come from selling stocks, and 40% should come from bonds (i.e. 1.6% of your portfolio), thus keeping your desired AA intact after rebalancing.

If you're really concerned about cognitive decline, you might want to consider placing all of your Vanguard assets into a single fund. One of their various balanced, all-in-one funds might work very well for you. That removes rebalancing from the equation and simplifies RMDs as well.

I would recommend that you contact Vanguard to ask them specifically what they will do and how they will do so.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

EyeDee
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Re: Vanguard Proportionate Withdrawal Service

Post by EyeDee » Wed May 22, 2019 7:05 pm

.
Willthrill81,

I obviously was not clear. I have contacted Vanguard twice on this precise issue and additionally on related issues. They have not told me of any rebalancing options. I thought in the post I previously replied to you were indicating that Vanguard would do some rebalancing other than use of a balanced fund. I am aware of the balanced fund option but not of any rebalancing tools. If you simply meant that you were going to use a balanced fund to do the rebalancing then thank you and sorry I bothered you. If you were indicating that Vanguard would rebalance your other funds as I thought, could you please provide such information as I have not seen were Vanguard would do that with my many years of studying Vanguards Required Minimum Distribution Service and talking to them nor have I seen anyone on this site indicate where Vanguard provides such as service for IRAs.

Thank you.

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:50 pm

What I relayed was merely my understanding of what Vanguard did as indicated by what others have done. You might want to start a new thread regarding this topic if you want more detailed information. All that needs to be done is for (1) your holdings to be rebalanced according to your desired AA and (2) a proportionate amount of each asset is sold to satisfy your RMDs. Regarding #2, let's say that your desired AA is 60/40. Immediately after your funds are rebalanced, you need a 4% RMD withdrawn. 60% of that 4% (i.e. 2.4% of your portfolio) should come from selling stocks, and 40% should come from bonds (i.e. 1.6% of your portfolio), thus keeping your desired AA intact after rebalancing.

If you're really concerned about cognitive decline, you might want to consider placing all of your Vanguard assets into a single fund. One of their various balanced, all-in-one funds might work very well for you. That removes rebalancing from the equation and simplifies RMDs as well.

I would recommend that you contact Vanguard to ask them specifically what they will do and how they will do so.
Randy

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willthrill81
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Re: Vanguard Proportionate Withdrawal Service

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:08 pm

EyeDee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:05 pm
.
Willthrill81,

I obviously was not clear. I have contacted Vanguard twice on this precise issue and additionally on related issues. They have not told me of any rebalancing options. I thought in the post I previously replied to you were indicating that Vanguard would do some rebalancing other than use of a balanced fund. I am aware of the balanced fund option but not of any rebalancing tools. If you simply meant that you were going to use a balanced fund to do the rebalancing then thank you and sorry I bothered you. If you were indicating that Vanguard would rebalance your other funds as I thought, could you please provide such information as I have not seen were Vanguard would do that with my many years of studying Vanguards Required Minimum Distribution Service and talking to them nor have I seen anyone on this site indicate where Vanguard provides such as service for IRAs.

Thank you.

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:50 pm

What I relayed was merely my understanding of what Vanguard did as indicated by what others have done. You might want to start a new thread regarding this topic if you want more detailed information. All that needs to be done is for (1) your holdings to be rebalanced according to your desired AA and (2) a proportionate amount of each asset is sold to satisfy your RMDs. Regarding #2, let's say that your desired AA is 60/40. Immediately after your funds are rebalanced, you need a 4% RMD withdrawn. 60% of that 4% (i.e. 2.4% of your portfolio) should come from selling stocks, and 40% should come from bonds (i.e. 1.6% of your portfolio), thus keeping your desired AA intact after rebalancing.

If you're really concerned about cognitive decline, you might want to consider placing all of your Vanguard assets into a single fund. One of their various balanced, all-in-one funds might work very well for you. That removes rebalancing from the equation and simplifies RMDs as well.

I would recommend that you contact Vanguard to ask them specifically what they will do and how they will do so.
I would be surprised if Vanguard would not rebalance multiple funds according to a fixed AA. I know that other brokerages will do precisely this (e.g. TIAA, Health Equity) at certain time periods (e.g. annually).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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celia
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by celia » Wed May 22, 2019 7:29 pm

dknightd wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:02 pm
I'll have enough in a ROTH IRA to cover somebody in nursing care for a couple or years, or to pass down to our kids, or for an unexpected splurge.
If you have anything left in tax-deferred when it is time to go to nursing care, wouldn’t it be better to start spending down more of that instead of Roth (after the RMD is taken)?

Since the medical expenses may not be fully covered and you can deduct them on your tax return (with some limitations), you might be able to get out of paying any taxes on the withdrawal.

Your heirs will appreciate getting more in Roth and less in tax-deferred.

EyeDee
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Re: Vanguard Proportionate Withdrawal Service

Post by EyeDee » Wed May 22, 2019 7:31 pm

.
Willthrill81,

Other brokerages might provide a rebalancing service but Vanguard does not.

Also you will want to reread this part of Vanguard's reply to my E-Mail:
"The options we offer for distributions that are done as a part of the Required Minimum Distribution Service are designed to determine the amounts that would be taken on the schedule you establish. Please note, the RMD amount that is calculated using the December 31 balance and the life expectancy factor for your age. If you were to choose to have the RMD taken proportionately from the funds, at the time you establish the service and then as of January 1 of each year we will review the balance in each fund to determine the amounts to withdraw for the proportional option. If you were then to make changes to the balances within the funds we would recommend having your service updated as the proportions will remain based on the January 1 calculation and not take into consideration any changes you made to the funds."

If you read it carefully (note years ago when Vanguard provided a form for Required Minimum Distribution service its instructions matched this response from Vanguard), you will see that the Proportional option only works the way your example shows if your funds were 60/40 on December 31/January 1 because the withdrawal always uses the proportion on December 31/January 1, it does not use the current proportion. For example if you are doing quarterly withdrawals they do not use the proportion at the quarterly withdrawal they use the proportion on December 31/January 1. If it used the proportions on the date of the withdrawal it would be a much better service. This quirk has bothered me for years. I have been asking Vanguard questions about it since 2009, because I find the implementation strange. Of course they could have changed the service recently, but I have not heard of them doing that.
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:08 pm
EyeDee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:05 pm
.
Willthrill81,

I obviously was not clear. I have contacted Vanguard twice on this precise issue and additionally on related issues. They have not told me of any rebalancing options. I thought in the post I previously replied to you were indicating that Vanguard would do some rebalancing other than use of a balanced fund. I am aware of the balanced fund option but not of any rebalancing tools. If you simply meant that you were going to use a balanced fund to do the rebalancing then thank you and sorry I bothered you. If you were indicating that Vanguard would rebalance your other funds as I thought, could you please provide such information as I have not seen were Vanguard would do that with my many years of studying Vanguards Required Minimum Distribution Service and talking to them nor have I seen anyone on this site indicate where Vanguard provides such as service for IRAs.

Thank you.

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:50 pm

What I relayed was merely my understanding of what Vanguard did as indicated by what others have done. You might want to start a new thread regarding this topic if you want more detailed information. All that needs to be done is for (1) your holdings to be rebalanced according to your desired AA and (2) a proportionate amount of each asset is sold to satisfy your RMDs. Regarding #2, let's say that your desired AA is 60/40. Immediately after your funds are rebalanced, you need a 4% RMD withdrawn. 60% of that 4% (i.e. 2.4% of your portfolio) should come from selling stocks, and 40% should come from bonds (i.e. 1.6% of your portfolio), thus keeping your desired AA intact after rebalancing.

If you're really concerned about cognitive decline, you might want to consider placing all of your Vanguard assets into a single fund. One of their various balanced, all-in-one funds might work very well for you. That removes rebalancing from the equation and simplifies RMDs as well.

I would recommend that you contact Vanguard to ask them specifically what they will do and how they will do so.
I would be surprised if Vanguard would not rebalance multiple funds according to a fixed AA. I know that other brokerages will do precisely this (e.g. TIAA, Health Equity) at certain time periods (e.g. annually).
Randy

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willthrill81
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Re: Vanguard Proportionate Withdrawal Service

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:34 pm

EyeDee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:31 pm
.
Willthrill81,

Other brokerages might provide a rebalancing service but Vanguard does not.

Also you will want to reread this part of Vanguard's reply to my E-Mail:
"The options we offer for distributions that are done as a part of the Required Minimum Distribution Service are designed to determine the amounts that would be taken on the schedule you establish. Please note, the RMD amount that is calculated using the December 31 balance and the life expectancy factor for your age. If you were to choose to have the RMD taken proportionately from the funds, at the time you establish the service and then as of January 1 of each year we will review the balance in each fund to determine the amounts to withdraw for the proportional option. If you were then to make changes to the balances within the funds we would recommend having your service updated as the proportions will remain based on the January 1 calculation and not take into consideration any changes you made to the funds."

If you read it carefully (note years ago when Vanguard provided a form for Required Minimum Distribution service its instructions matched this response from Vanguard), you will see that the Proportional option only works the way your example shows if your funds were 60/40 on December 31/January 1 because the withdrawal always uses the proportion on December 31/January 1, it does not use the current proportion. For example if you are doing quarterly withdrawals they do not use the proportion at the quarterly withdrawal they use the proportion on December 31/January 1. If it used the proportions on the date of the withdrawal it would be a much better service. This quirk has bothered me for years. I have been asking Vanguard questions about it since 2009, because I find the implementation strange. Of course they could have changed the service recently, but I have not heard of them doing that.
That's surprising and unfortunate for those trying to do precisely what you are.

It sounds like if you want to stay with Vanguard, you should move into an all-in-one fund to accomplish your objective.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Seasonal
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by Seasonal » Wed May 22, 2019 7:40 pm

Is there likely to be a point when you aren't able to run a SWR plan, but are able to pay bills and make other necessary financial and tax decisions? Obviously it will depend on the complexity of your SWR plan, but how much complexity do you really need? If you don't have anyone you trust, how will you otherwise cope?

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willthrill81
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Re: Will a financial pro be WILLING to run your SWR plan after cognitive decline?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:45 pm

Seasonal wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:40 pm
Is there likely to be a point when you aren't able to run a SWR plan, but are able to pay bills and make other necessary financial and tax decisions? Obviously it will depend on the complexity of your SWR plan, but how much complexity do you really need? If you don't have anyone you trust, how will you otherwise cope?
My thoughts are similar to yours. If we reach the point where we are unable to take care of our financial matters, we'll likely hire a CPA to help us take care of the details with oversight from our then adult daughter.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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