Careers in art

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Jack FFR1846
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:03 pm

I look at both art and music in similar ways. If you have a marketable talent, schooling will refine your knowledge and give you practice but if one is going to be successful, they've already been making money with their talent. While not a career level, in high school, I played in a band that played small venues for money. I had no plans ever for that to be a profession. On the art side, I lettered signs and vehicles and did a ton of pinstriping on vans, trucks, motorcycles, snowmobiles, helmets, cars. During breaks while my friends were getting part time jobs pumping gas and flipping burgers, I was getting $20 an hour both for small jobs on vehicles and painting large commercial signs (one was posted on a building for a moving company, visible from the Mass Turnpike in Chicopee for a solid decade before being replaced). This was in the early 80's for reference....$20 was a good wage back then. Had I wanted to be a full time artist doing pin striping, I probably could have. Art school? Might have been fun. Not for the cost of private college (where I ended up....paying my own way partly with my pin striping income and part by selling everything I owned.) It was a good part time job to fall back on.
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GT99
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Re: Careers in art

Post by GT99 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm

ddurrett896 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:06 pm
Supply and demand.

There is a low demand for art degrees. Major in something else, get a minor in art if you want to follow a passion but don’t bet on it.
I largely agree. The plural of anecdote is not data. Just because people have been successful or know someone successful doesn't mean it's likely. Many, many other degrees correlate much more with career success (obviously depends on how you define success to some degree) than Art or similar degrees.

Some other thoughts:
-It's a cost/benefit decision. Paying $10k a year (I'm making up a number I think is realistic for a state school Arts degree makes a lot more sense than paying $40k a year somewhere else.
-The flip side of that is someone with an arts degree from a top tier school probably has better odds for success than someone with a business degree from a 4th tier state school.
-That said, intelligent, driven people are likely to succeed no matter what their degree (or lack thereof).

stoptothink
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Re: Careers in art

Post by stoptothink » Tue May 14, 2019 5:30 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:03 pm
I look at both art and music in similar ways. If you have a marketable talent, schooling will refine your knowledge and give you practice but if one is going to be successful, they've already been making money with their talent. While not a career level, in high school, I played in a band that played small venues for money. I had no plans ever for that to be a profession. On the art side, I lettered signs and vehicles and did a ton of pinstriping on vans, trucks, motorcycles, snowmobiles, helmets, cars. During breaks while my friends were getting part time jobs pumping gas and flipping burgers, I was getting $20 an hour both for small jobs on vehicles and painting large commercial signs (one was posted on a building for a moving company, visible from the Mass Turnpike in Chicopee for a solid decade before being replaced). This was in the early 80's for reference....$20 was a good wage back then. Had I wanted to be a full time artist doing pin striping, I probably could have. Art school? Might have been fun. Not for the cost of private college (where I ended up....paying my own way partly with my pin striping income and part by selling everything I owned.) It was a good part time job to fall back on.
Of those I know who make a living creating "art", I can't say for sure, but I believe not a single one of them has a university degree in the field. I do know 3 people who do have art degrees (2 with grad degrees), from very high end universities, and only one of them remotely makes a living in art (a junior high art teacher). I have a "visual specialist" and a graphic designer on my staff - they make a living producing "art" - both of them have degrees in English, in fact one if an adjunct university professor in creative writing on the side. I actually did interview a lot of individuals with art degrees for both those positions, but they didn't have other skills (they did not write well) and (like it or not) they didn't come off as go-getters; they were mostly 30+ with very unimpressive workforce experience.

If you have talent, you have talent, but (in my experience) a university degree just doesn't seem to be a pre-req or very marketable in regards to getting an art job.

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Watty
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Watty » Tue May 14, 2019 5:47 pm

cogito wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:05 am
A "Career in Art" is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
+1

There were some suggestions about being an art teacher or even a special ed art teacher which might not be real satisfying to some people that are looking to be creative. Especially being an special ed art teacher. I know people who work in special ed and it is a challenging job.

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is that it would be good if she could find some working artist to talk with about what there career is like and to maybe find a mentor.

There are many different art societies and art guilds that she might be able to get involved with for get more contact with working artists.

hoffse
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Re: Careers in art

Post by hoffse » Tue May 14, 2019 8:04 pm

Several anecdotes for you. I have an artsy circle of friends. Some visual art, others musicians.

First, my best friend since childhood went to college and majored in studio art. She ended up working as a designer for a rug company. Sounds off the wall, but her rugs were used frequently in photo shoots for magazines like southern living. Eventually she got tired of it and started freelancing as a stationery designer. She now works from home, designs custom stationery, and makes a very good living this way.

Another friend of mine went to art school and got into photography. He and his wife are now wedding photographers. They make a killing doing this and have a bit of a cult following on the Atlanta wedding circuit. My single biggest regret from my own wedding was not hiring him to do the photography. He’s amazing.

Another dear friend majored in piano performance. She is now a professional organist for several churches and teaches private lessons out of her home. She is single, but at 31 has made enough money to own her own home, buy several very expensive pianos that each cost more than my car, and she travels internationally multiple times a year to see her sister who lives overseas. She is doing great.

Speaking of weddings, the woman who was the maid of honor in my wedding is a professional fiddle player. She majored in classical violin performance, but then started entering (and winning) fiddle competitions in college. For a long time she made a living with the fiddle competitions and private lessons, until a hand injury forced her to change course. She’s now a music teacher at a public school in MA and loves it.

A newer - but still dear - friend of mine double majored in trumpet and premed. He’s now an attending physician at the children’s hospital in the city where I live. His specialty? Children with autism and music therapy treatment. He’s doing some incredibly important work.

Then there is my husband. He majored in music composition, with a minor in anthropology. He got into grad programs for composition, but opted out and went to law school instead. He’s now a lawyer in private practice making very good money. He also happens to be the youngest person ever to be invited to join the board of our local (middle market) symphony. 3 years into that gig he was put on the executive committee. Every other person on that committee has at least an 8 figure net worth. The symphony has allowed him to network so well that his firm has approached him about going up for partner early and skipping the non-equity tiers. Most importantly, music gives him a creative outlet to process stress from his job in a constructive way. He works with some very high functioning people who self medicate with alcohol and anxiety meds. That’s a huge problem in the legal profession. He has never needed this. He composes when he gets stressed out.

As for me, I majored in art history (not studio, I wasn’t good enough). I also went to law school, and now I’m a tax lawyer who specializes in nonprofits/tax-exempts. It turns out that wealthy people often have a charitable interest, and many of these people have collectibles they want to donate. It seems to have come full circle for me. I’m less naturally creative than my husband, but I do play several instruments, and that is how I process stress too. I also draw and take the occasional pottery class to throw on a wheel. My husband and I did not meet in law school, by the way. We met at all state band many years ago.

Summary: I know many people who were art or music majors. Not one of them is starving. Almost all of them are interesting people who have incorporated art one way or another into their careers. Do all of these people make six figures? No. But some do, and all seem pretty happy with how things have turned out.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by Dottie57 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:12 pm

CascadiaSoonish wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:15 pm
I would not pay for my kid's degree unless they can tell me how they are going to make a career out of that degree.
I wholeheartedly disagree. College isn't and shouldn't be just a vocational program. It's an opportunity for kids to learn how to think, how to find their own path, to be exposed to different people and opinions. It should give students flexible skills enabling them to succeed in any number of fields, including those that don't exist yet.

Source: music major who ended up in tech. Analyzing symphonies is a similar thought process to analyzing system architectures -- find the patterns, see how it works, see when the rules must be followed and when they can be bent.
Political Science Major who ended up in Tech also. I enjoyed tech. Unfortunately current politics hurts my soul. :(

gailcox
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Re: Careers in art

Post by gailcox » Tue May 14, 2019 9:47 pm

When my daughter went to college I asked her to please not major in art or psychology. Art, because I didn't understand what she would do with an art degree and psychology, because I knew it would take an advanced degree and maybe a Doctorate to do what she wanted to do. (and we were not paying for advanced degrees) After a very stressful freshman year she dropped her major of "Psychobiology" and switched to, you guessed it, art AND psychology. After seeing her so unhappy and stressed to the max, her father and I relented and just wanted her to be happy and have a feeling of accomplishment in those two majors. Plus, she was on the 4 year plan. The summers between each year of college she was able to get some part time jobs at various art galleries in the Orange County area. When she graduated she signed a lease in Orange County but received a great internship at a gallery in Los Angeles as an "archivist" but the commute was a killer. She was balancing 3 part time jobs and the internship (which are never paid anymore!). After a year of this and us still supplementing her income her dad said "she's coming home if we have to keep sending her money". That didn't make much sense to me because if she came home to live, she wouldn't have a job and we'd STILL be supplementing her income. So we decided to help her a few more months. Lucky we did! She had her sights set on an amazing gallery in LA, where she now works as an "Artist Liaison". She has represented some of the most amazing American artists and has traveled to Zurich, New York, London, and Honk Kong to organize the openings for her artists. She works very hard but loves her work. She realizes most people in her position have masters degrees but she had drive, passion and the insight to figure out what she wanted to do and at what gallery she wanted to be and she zig-zagged her way there by using her prior jobs as stepping stones, by being at the openings of various artists and by making contacts. I never would have guessed her current job would have resulted from a plain vanilla art degree but it did. Good luck to your daughter! Tell her to set her sights high and to work hard.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by KlangFool » Wed May 15, 2019 6:00 am

gailcox wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:47 pm
When my daughter went to college I asked her to please not major in art or psychology. Art, because I didn't understand what she would do with an art degree and psychology, because I knew it would take an advanced degree and maybe a Doctorate to do what she wanted to do. (and we were not paying for advanced degrees) After a very stressful freshman year she dropped her major of "Psychobiology" and switched to, you guessed it, art AND psychology. After seeing her so unhappy and stressed to the max, her father and I relented and just wanted her to be happy and have a feeling of accomplishment in those two majors. Plus, she was on the 4 year plan. The summers between each year of college she was able to get some part time jobs at various art galleries in the Orange County area. When she graduated she signed a lease in Orange County but received a great internship at a gallery in Los Angeles as an "archivist" but the commute was a killer. She was balancing 3 part time jobs and the internship (which are never paid anymore!). After a year of this and us still supplementing her income her dad said "she's coming home if we have to keep sending her money". That didn't make much sense to me because if she came home to live, she wouldn't have a job and we'd STILL be supplementing her income. So we decided to help her a few more months. Lucky we did! She had her sights set on an amazing gallery in LA, where she now works as an "Artist Liaison". She has represented some of the most amazing American artists and has traveled to Zurich, New York, London, and Honk Kong to organize the openings for her artists. She works very hard but loves her work. She realizes most people in her position have masters degrees but she had drive, passion and the insight to figure out what she wanted to do and at what gallery she wanted to be and she zig-zagged her way there by using her prior jobs as stepping stones, by being at the openings of various artists and by making contacts. I never would have guessed her current job would have resulted from a plain vanilla art degree but it did. Good luck to your daughter! Tell her to set her sights high and to work hard.
gailcox,

The #1 or #2 nationally ranked Fine Arts program is at UCLA in Los Angeles. Is that the school your daughter went to? If that so, her success is not by accident.

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nativenewenglander
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Re: Careers in art

Post by nativenewenglander » Wed May 15, 2019 6:19 pm

JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:01 pm
Daughter is starting college and contemplating study/fields in art. She will be going to a local public state college. She is a talented artist. My first reaction is it isn't a very practical choice, but I honestly don't know. Options include art teacher, art therapist, graphic design, web design etc.

I do think she would enjoy it more than other fields she has contemplated since she has a passion for it. But I am hesitant about the job prospects.

Anybody have any experience with this?
My wife has a degree in commercial art. She is a very talented artist like your daughter. Her dad questioned her getting a degree in art I remember, but she became a graphic designer, then an art director. I recall her boss was amazed with her hand skills, he said it was a rare talent. Later we started a wholesale company which 20 years later we still run, she uses her art talent daily in it. She says I pimp her art talent, lol. Your daughter could likely do quite well with an art degree.

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JBTX
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Re: Careers in art

Post by JBTX » Wed May 15, 2019 6:55 pm

Thanks for all of the subsequent replies. Not shockingly, there are some pretty diverse views. I actually let my daughter read the thread (a day or so ago). It was helpful and I think her takeaway was whichever route she goes it is probably a good idea to have a plan B, such as a dual degree, minor in art in art instead, etc.

renue74
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Re: Careers in art

Post by renue74 » Wed May 15, 2019 7:09 pm

What is it now? How many careers will the average person have in their lifetime?

I think the Boglehead community is probably skewed to the older folks. (I'm 45, BTW) . And older folks tended to be more "company men or women," staying at their megacorps.

The valedictorian of my HS class ended up majoring in art at UNC-Chapel Hill. She then went on to grad school in Chicago and did a couple art jobs...but now she works at at a Montessori school in Colorado. I guess she's happy. Looks like she enjoyed life.

Side note...I had a crush on her and I was salutatorian. :wink:

My neighbors kid when to the SC Governor's School for art. (High School) and then went to a fancy art school in NYC. I think it costs about $80K/year. I looked it up when she told me about it. Seems to be doing OK.

It seems that art people typically aren't really hung up on money. They survive just fine and relegate themselves that they are not going to be rich.

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Watty
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Watty » Wed May 15, 2019 7:11 pm

JBTX wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:55 pm
Thanks for all of the subsequent replies. Not shockingly, there are some pretty diverse views. I actually let my daughter read the thread (a day or so ago). It was helpful and I think her takeaway was whichever route she goes it is probably a good idea to have a plan B, such as a dual degree, minor in art in art instead, etc.
The "plan B" is not just for if she has to give up on an art career, it could take years to establish herself as an artist if she goes that route so she may need to have some other way to support herself while she establishes herself as an artist.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 pm

Depending on the college, she might not need to declare a major right away. There are basics to take care of with any degree. I didn't declare right away because I had to decide between two divergent paths.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Sandtrap » Wed May 15, 2019 9:52 pm

JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:01 pm
Daughter is starting college and contemplating study/fields in art. She will be going to a local public state college. She is a talented artist. My first reaction is it isn't a very practical choice, but I honestly don't know. Options include art teacher, art therapist, graphic design, web design etc.

I do think she would enjoy it more than other fields she has contemplated since she has a passion for it. But I am hesitant about the job prospects.

Anybody have any experience with this?
1. Art with education degree, preferably graduate level, also a "minor" or dual major in a solid.
2. Can #1 be integrated with an engineering degree?
3. Artistic talent and interest = creative visualization/spacial which can be applied in many fields that don't have the name "graphic" or "art" in the name. Research further.
4. Has she gotten tested to reveal other core aptitudes, strengths, etc. (IE: Myers Briggs, Aptitude, etc, etc)?
5. There are a lot of "solids"/core requirements to be taken care of towards a university degree. Lot's of time and thinking to be had along the way. Don't rush to commit. (I think I changed my major at least 7 times or more). :shock:

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Sandtrap
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Sandtrap » Wed May 15, 2019 9:56 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 pm
Depending on the college, she might not need to declare a major right away. There are basics to take care of with any degree. I didn't declare right away because I had to decide between two divergent paths.
+1
So true!
My "divergent paths" were; pre-med, engineering, or finance. :shock:

Glockenspiel
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Re: Careers in art

Post by Glockenspiel » Wed May 15, 2019 10:03 pm

I know one person who is legit making a living as an artist, mostly doing commissioned paintings in his very specialized style. Everyone else I know who went into art is working in either graphic design or marketing. It can be very difficult to just put out art and get people to buy it.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by IowaFarmWife » Wed May 15, 2019 10:16 pm

JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:01 pm
Daughter is starting college and contemplating study/fields in art. She will be going to a local public state college. She is a talented artist. My first reaction is it isn't a very practical choice, but I honestly don't know. Options include art teacher, art therapist, graphic design, web design etc.

I do think she would enjoy it more than other fields she has contemplated since she has a passion for it. But I am hesitant about the job prospects.

Anybody have any experience with this?
We are in the same position with our youngest daughter. She just finished one year at the local community college to try some art classes and to finish her gen eds, and will be attending a 4 year college next year. She will be majoring in Art and education, and wants to be an art teacher. We have explored graphic design programs with her, but in our rural area there is not a big demand for for that profession, and she wants to stay close to home when she graduates. I know two other people who have four year degrees in graphic design, and neither of them are working in their field.

SoAnyway
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Re: Careers in art

Post by SoAnyway » Wed May 15, 2019 10:23 pm

JBTX wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:55 pm
Thanks for all of the subsequent replies. Not shockingly, there are some pretty diverse views. I actually let my daughter read the thread (a day or so ago). It was helpful and I think her takeaway was whichever route she goes it is probably a good idea to have a plan B, such as a dual degree, minor in art in art instead, etc.
JBTX, you're a great parent. :sharebeer I hope her takeaway is that there are LOTS of things she can do with whatever major she pursues. She just needs to think about how she wants to morph her undergraduate training (in whatever field she chooses) into a livelihood, and the supplemental skill sets she'll need and how she'll get them. I hope YOUR takeaway as a parent is that there are WAY more pathways to a secure career from an art degree than you initially considered.

FWIW, I can barely draw stick figures but like hoffse upthread, I've always been drawn to artists. All of my best friends in college were art majors. Their ability to see and think completely differently from my own ways of seeing/thinking was (and still is) so refreshing. As for my college friends, none are starving artists. One started a wildly successful graphic design firm; another got into jewelry design with top companies (think Tiffany) before starting her own brand (that those in the field have undoubtedly heard of); another is an executive at a Madison Avenue ad agency; another initially got into website design which led to coding which led to software engineering on the UI side; etc. And that's just my college friends; I've acquired a number of other "artsy" friends in other fields of art (music, dance, drama, etc.) in the decades since who have completely lapped me in terms of financial success, despite my more "practical" fields of study and career. No envy; just fact. I cheer them on! :sharebeer

BTW, none of these folks minored in business, but rather learned "on the fly" how the business world works. Some have said over the years that they (explicit air quotes) "should have" minored in business; maybe it would've helped them get up the learning curve faster. That said, they usually admit in the same breath that caught up as they were at the time in their artistic passion and desire to hone their craft, there's NO WAY they would've had the patience for such courses in their undergraduate years and probably would've flunked them all, hahaha.

SoAnyway: As any artist would tell you OP, "Think outside the box...." ; ) Acknowledge limitations but don't forget to be open to possibilities. The fact that you posted your question in this thread tells me you're willing to do that, which is among the reasons I say you're a great parent btw. If you do that, with her innate talent and you as a guide, your daughter will be just fine, I'm certain.
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Re: Careers in art

Post by MrBobcat » Thu May 16, 2019 12:34 am

JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:54 pm
fortfun wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:41 pm
JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 pm
fortfun wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:55 pm
The richest person I ever saw post on this forum was a professional artist. I think his portfolio was worth 30M, if I remember correctly.

I doubt your daughter will get that rich, but just putting that out there. I think my daughter might major in art also, possibly to become an art teacher. We've talked about the competitive nature of getting an art teaching position. I've mentioned that it would be wise to pick up a minor in special education, or some other in-demand specialty, that could help her get her foot in the door at a school. ELA would be another area to pick up. If your daughter wants to go into teaching art, you might mention this to her, as there may be 100+ art teachers applying for a single position. If she can get her foot in the door as a special ed/ELA teacher, she has a better chance of moving into an art teaching position at that school, or another school.
Thanks for the info. She is very good with special needs kids. Her younger brother is ASD and she has been around them all of her life. I agree art with a special ed teaching slant could be a good fit for her.

In terms of the 100 art teachers applying for one art teacher position, is it really that bad? If so that is discouraging.
In a popular district, maybe more than 100. However, that special ed degree would be a guaranteed foot in the door (with a signing bonus) and likely lead to a full time art job in no time. Once the principal and other teachers get to know her, she will get the first vacancy. The other option is to start in a rural district or urban district. She would get a job there very quickly. Again, as she gains experience there, she'd quickly land a job in a suburban district. Of course, she might get lucky and land her dream job right out of college. If she is able to pick her cooperating teacher carefully, during her student teaching, they can sometimes land them a great job due to connections. My cooperating teacher was very highly regarded and with his recommendation, I was able to land a dream job, in my district, right out of college. However, it was in a different subject area but that still shows the influence of a connected cooperating teacher. PM me and I can put you/her in touch with my school's art department leader for some specific advice.
Thanks again. Excellent feedback!



It will be entirely her decision (within reason) but we do have influence. One concern about being a teacher is I know of a couple of people who went into education, but ultimately bailed on being public school teacher because of factors other than teaching (parents, school administration) and others who seem to like it but don't recommend it because of the money. On the flip side the kids have had many great teachers who seem to be happy and passionate about it.

The special ed degree is good to know. I've always hoped she would go that route. She truly has a gift in that area, along with art. She also took several years of ASL in high school.

I may take you up on your offer! Thanks again.
Lots and lots of paperwork, testing (to see if they qualify for spec ed) and meetings for special ed teachers. But it can help get your foot in the door.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by quantAndHold » Thu May 16, 2019 1:53 am

I have a music degree, but had a very successful career in tech. I could have had a decent career as a musician, but decided to have a life instead.

One of my siblings has a music degree, and has a successful career in the insurance industry. Despite a degree from one of the top music schools, he knew when he graduated that he wouldn’t have made it performing, so he chose a different direction.

Middle child is a talented artist. She went to a top film school, got a degree in computer animation, and is making a good living at one of the big animation houses. Besides her artistic ability, she turned out to have good organizational skills, so most of her work is as a project leader, not directly doing the art.

Youngest has a degree in computer science, but is working as a musician.

You never know where things will lead.

SoAnyway
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Re: Careers in art

Post by SoAnyway » Thu May 16, 2019 3:26 am

quantAndHold wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:53 am
I have a music degree, but had a very successful career in tech. I could have had a decent career as a musician, but decided to have a life instead.

One of my siblings has a music degree, and has a successful career in the insurance industry. Despite a degree from one of the top music schools, he knew when he graduated that he wouldn’t have made it performing, so he chose a different direction.

Middle child is a talented artist. She went to a top film school, got a degree in computer animation, and is making a good living at one of the big animation houses. Besides her artistic ability, she turned out to have good organizational skills, so most of her work is as a project leader, not directly doing the art.

Youngest has a degree in computer science, but is working as a musician.

You never know where things will lead.
I LOVE this post!! Thank you, quantandhold - You stated far more eloquently than I the point I tried to make to OP in my earlier post. Either way, I hope something has resonated, both with OP and his daughter. ; )
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feh
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Re: Careers in art

Post by feh » Thu May 16, 2019 1:11 pm

Haven't read the entire thread...does the major/career need to be in traditional art, or simply a creative field? That would broaden the prospects quite a bit.

Video game development, industrial design...just a couple creative fields that don't rely solely on artistry.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by retire2022 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:44 pm

JBTX

There are some things others have not touched on this applies to any artist and has been the case for myself:

-Your daughter should be passionate about her craft, she should be practicing all the time enough for at least 10,000 hours. Malcolm Gladwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

-Your daughter should develop her own voice, whatever media she is using, so that her work is recognized and common thread which marries them collectively together.

-Her work should be unique, in that she has the ability to master it and create something that is her own.

-Her work should speak to her audience, that is her work in that they can only understand that message, therefore they say ah, got it.

-Her work should leverage mass media, social media, a meme, create buzz, and could come in different forms, film music, video, a flash happening, etc.

-Her work is about promotion, self promotion, and there should be a venue in which this can be shown, displayed and presented.

-She should learn about historical art Garners Art Through the Ages, https://www.amazon.com/Gardners-Through ... 0155011413

-Film History from a movie writer/critic

-history of Music

-running a small business

-managing people

-creative writing

-Her work could be political or propaganda

This maybe for some a tall order, but as she works through her later years she will appreciate these tips.

good luck

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Re: Careers in art

Post by forgeblast » Fri May 17, 2019 10:25 am

JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:01 pm
Daughter is starting college and contemplating study/fields in art. She will be going to a local public state college. She is a talented artist. My first reaction is it isn't a very practical choice, but I honestly don't know. Options include art teacher, art therapist, graphic design, web design etc.

I do think she would enjoy it more than other fields she has contemplated since she has a passion for it. But I am hesitant about the job prospects.

Anybody have any experience with this?
I have a BS in Art Ed, and a Masters in Art Therapy. I currently teach. Teaching as a career is not something I try to talk people into. It has fundamentally changed from when I started and do not recommend it.
Art Therapy, need a masters level degree to practice in it. Very demanding work, your working with people on the worse days of their lives most of the time. I graduated with 12 art therapists 1 is still doing it, 2 are now college level teaching classes and the rest are burned out.
A friend of mine went graphic design minor with programming major (or vs versa) just retired.
An acquaintance of mine told me once his father said to him "is it a career or a hobby?, a Career pays you, a hobby is something you will be paying to do."

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JBTX
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Re: Careers in art

Post by JBTX » Fri May 17, 2019 2:53 pm

forgeblast wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:25 am
JBTX wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:01 pm
Daughter is starting college and contemplating study/fields in art. She will be going to a local public state college. She is a talented artist. My first reaction is it isn't a very practical choice, but I honestly don't know. Options include art teacher, art therapist, graphic design, web design etc.

I do think she would enjoy it more than other fields she has contemplated since she has a passion for it. But I am hesitant about the job prospects.

Anybody have any experience with this?
I have a BS in Art Ed, and a Masters in Art Therapy. I currently teach. Teaching as a career is not something I try to talk people into. It has fundamentally changed from when I started and do not recommend it.
Art Therapy, need a masters level degree to practice in it. Very demanding work, your working with people on the worse days of their lives most of the time. I graduated with 12 art therapists 1 is still doing it, 2 are now college level teaching classes and the rest are burned out.
A friend of mine went graphic design minor with programming major (or vs versa) just retired.
An acquaintance of mine told me once his father said to him "is it a career or a hobby?, a Career pays you, a hobby is something you will be paying to do."
As a parent of 2 kids that have special needs, I personally can't imagine doing that as a full time job. It would be exhausting. Behaviors considered to be among the worst out there I suspect are routine.

My daughter is very good with special needs kids. However she hasn't experienced it every working day for much of the day.

I also suspect many parents are challenging too. Ranging from just being burnt out and not involved, to desperately hoping to "fix" the kid and not having realistic expectations.

Your comments on teaching are ones that I hear often.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by JBTX » Fri May 17, 2019 2:58 pm

retire2022 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:44 pm
JBTX

There are some things others have not touched on this applies to any artist and has been the case for myself:

-Your daughter should be passionate about her craft, she should be practicing all the time enough for at least 10,000 hours. Malcolm Gladwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

-Your daughter should develop her own voice, whatever media she is using, so that her work is recognized and common thread which marries them collectively together.

-Her work should be unique, in that she has the ability to master it and create something that is her own.

-Her work should speak to her audience, that is her work in that they can only understand that message, therefore they say ah, got it.

-Her work should leverage mass media, social media, a meme, create buzz, and could come in different forms, film music, video, a flash happening, etc.

-Her work is about promotion, self promotion, and there should be a venue in which this can be shown, displayed and presented.

-She should learn about historical art Garners Art Through the Ages, https://www.amazon.com/Gardners-Through ... 0155011413

-Film History from a movie writer/critic

-history of Music

-running a small business

-managing people

-creative writing

-Her work could be political or propaganda

This maybe for some a tall order, but as she works through her later years she will appreciate these tips.

good luck
Your common theme and unique points are something that her advanced art high school teacher has stressed. All of her recent paintings have gone down a particular theme that somewhat relates to her personally. I would say she probably isn't technically the best in her class but themes and subjects can be pretty interesting and thought provoking.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by Thegame14 » Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm

College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training. High School is where they are supposed to figure out what they like and don't like and "find themselves", and screw around. Then they should choose the best college that suits their desired career choice. Art unless you are the 1% of the 1% of the 1% is not a career it is a hobby. Yes people make millions playing fantasy baseball or video games or other hobbies, but it is the exception. She should find what she is good at and what career that may lead to that is acceptable and will support her lifestyle and family, and then art on the side for enjoyment.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Fri May 17, 2019 3:15 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm
College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training. High School is where they are supposed to figure out what they like and don't like and "find themselves", and screw around.
I strongly disagree with that. The likelihood of an 18 year-old having a life plan is small.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by quantAndHold » Fri May 17, 2019 3:29 pm

My cousin knew he wanted to be a particle physicist when he was 8. He came home from school one day and told his mom, “I know what I want to be when I grow up!” She was expecting him to say fireman or policeman or something. But now, 30 years later, he is indeed a physicist.

Everyone else that I know, however, changed directions at least once between high school graduation and age 30. Some more than once.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by retire2022 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:15 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm
College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training. High School is where they are supposed to figure out what they like and don't like and "find themselves", and screw around.
I strongly disagree with that. The likelihood of an 18 year-old having a life plan is small.
I concur with Earl Lemograb it was not until I went to Burning man at 39 that I discovered my voice and my skill and it was 21 years since I had picked up a camera.

https://burningman.org/

retire2022
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Re: Careers in art

Post by retire2022 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:53 pm

JBTX wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:58 pm

Your common theme and unique points are something that her advanced art high school teacher has stressed. All of her recent paintings have gone down a particular theme that somewhat relates to her personally. I would say she probably isn't technically the best in her class but themes and subjects can be pretty interesting and thought provoking.
JBTX this is very true what is expected with post modernist, and the list what I learned meeting ex-Warhol artists of that era.

Isn't this neat that the internet has brought different people from disparate walks of life together? amazing no?
Last edited by retire2022 on Fri May 17, 2019 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stoptothink
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Re: Careers in art

Post by stoptothink » Fri May 17, 2019 4:55 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:15 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm
College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training. High School is where they are supposed to figure out what they like and don't like and "find themselves", and screw around.
I strongly disagree with that. The likelihood of an 18 year-old having a life plan is small.
The likelihood of a 22yr old recent college grad having a life plan isn't all that much larger. Those who view higher education as an opportunity to "find themselves" are usually left sadly disappointed, and in serious debt. Academia and the real world are very different things.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Sat May 18, 2019 12:19 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:55 pm
The likelihood of a 22yr old recent college grad having a life plan isn't all that much larger. Those who view higher education as an opportunity to "find themselves" are usually left sadly disappointed, and in serious debt. Academia and the real world are very different things.
It's a time to take courses and see where your interests and aptitudes lie. I think you're taking it in a different sense.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by coachd50 » Sat May 18, 2019 12:44 pm

CascadiaSoonish wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:15 pm
I would not pay for my kid's degree unless they can tell me how they are going to make a career out of that degree.
I wholeheartedly disagree. College isn't and shouldn't be just a vocational program. It's an opportunity for kids to learn how to think, how to find their own path, to be exposed to different people and opinions. It should give students flexible skills enabling them to succeed in any number of fields, including those that don't exist yet.

Source: music major who ended up in tech. Analyzing symphonies is a similar thought process to analyzing system architectures -- find the patterns, see how it works, see when the rules must be followed and when they can be bent.
I 100% agree. Unfortunately I think we are in the very small minority in our viewpoints.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by KyleAAA » Sat May 18, 2019 12:51 pm

Your daughter could hedge by getting a minor in business or something along those lines. Business acumen comes in handy for most professions. There are plenty of creative fields somebody with an art degree could go into.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by retire2022 » Sat May 18, 2019 12:54 pm

coachd50 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 12:44 pm
CascadiaSoonish wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:15 pm
I would not pay for my kid's degree unless they can tell me how they are going to make a career out of that degree.
I wholeheartedly disagree. College isn't and shouldn't be just a vocational program. It's an opportunity for kids to learn how to think, how to find their own path, to be exposed to different people and opinions. It should give students flexible skills enabling them to succeed in any number of fields, including those that don't exist yet.

Source: music major who ended up in tech. Analyzing symphonies is a similar thought process to analyzing system architectures -- find the patterns, see how it works, see when the rules must be followed and when they can be bent.
I 100% agree. Unfortunately I think we are in the very small minority in our viewpoints.
I ended as a civil servant in the affordable housing industry, my education allowed me to be a good researcher, and ultimately a good investor at the end of the day at 58 my net worth is 2.4 million.

I had the opportunity to practice my craft, I was a photographer at one point in my career for several years and for JBTX daughter she has 40 plus years to go, her future awaits and there are endless possibilities.

My liberal art education allowed me for open mind, as a creative with imagination, it allowed me to be receptive to computers and life challenges, I grew up in a good era and was lucky to make something of myself.

Lots of my classmates could had been better or worst don't know other than the most famous of mine in High School. I wish the best for JBTX daughter.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by GCD » Sat May 18, 2019 1:10 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm
College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training.
CascadiaSoonish wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
College isn't and shouldn't be just a vocational program. It's an opportunity for kids to learn how to think, how to find their own path, to be exposed to different people and opinions. It should give students flexible skills enabling them to succeed in any number of fields, including those that don't exist yet.
I soooo want to side with Cascadia. As an undergrad philosophy major I really used to believe that college was a place to learn to think and get those flexible skills enabling widespread success. This is a view my father, a retired history professor, instilled in me. Unfortunately, many colleges currently have abdicated their role of teaching students to think and are merely indoctrination programs for a political view. At this point I feel college is only about gaining an employable skill. I wish it were different.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by MarkBarb » Sat May 18, 2019 1:40 pm

Lot's of great anecdotes here showing that it can be done, but I like data. The site below will show you median, 25th percentile and 75th percentile incomes by major.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/ ... egemajors/

Some of it depends on her. I grew up with a friend that was born to be an art major. She makes a living doing it. Her life would have probably been a disaster if she tried majoring in business or engineering. On the other hand, I have a son that is a good at and enjoys programming and art. There has never been a question that he'd focus on building marketable computing skills because he'll probably make a lot more money that way and can keep active with art as a hobby.

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Re: Careers in art

Post by stoptothink » Sat May 18, 2019 1:40 pm

GCD wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:10 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm
College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training.
CascadiaSoonish wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
College isn't and shouldn't be just a vocational program. It's an opportunity for kids to learn how to think, how to find their own path, to be exposed to different people and opinions. It should give students flexible skills enabling them to succeed in any number of fields, including those that don't exist yet.
I soooo want to side with Cascadia. As an undergrad philosophy major I really used to believe that college was a place to learn to think and get those flexible skills enabling widespread success. This is a view my father, a retired history professor, instilled in me. Unfortunately, many colleges currently have abdicated their role of teaching students to think and are merely indoctrination programs for a political view. At this point I feel college is only about gaining an employable skill. I wish it were different.
Exactly why I stopped teaching last year. I did it for fun, on the side as an adjunct, for 4yrs and always thought that when I retire I'd maybe teach a lot more. Yeah, that's not happening. It's changed so much just since I started, and I'm only 38. Get in, get that piece of paper, and get out as fast and as cheap as you can (balancing that with the quality of education/peers). The real learning starts when you get out of school.

coachd50
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Re: Careers in art

Post by coachd50 » Sat May 18, 2019 1:54 pm

GCD wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:10 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm
College is NOT a place for a person to "FIND THEMSELVES", it absolutely is vocational job training.
CascadiaSoonish wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm
College isn't and shouldn't be just a vocational program. It's an opportunity for kids to learn how to think, how to find their own path, to be exposed to different people and opinions. It should give students flexible skills enabling them to succeed in any number of fields, including those that don't exist yet.
I soooo want to side with Cascadia. As an undergrad philosophy major I really used to believe that college was a place to learn to think and get those flexible skills enabling widespread success. This is a view my father, a retired history professor, instilled in me. Unfortunately, many colleges currently have abdicated their role of teaching students to think and are merely indoctrination programs for a political view. At this point I feel college is only about gaining an employable skill. I wish it were different.
I agree with this as well. It would be wonderful is education was truly education, and not simply about getting tickets punched to lead to a paycheck

retire2022
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Re: Careers in art

Post by retire2022 » Sat May 18, 2019 2:24 pm

All this is like the movie Forrest Grump "life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you going to get", and momma said "I wore many shoes"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJh59vZ8ccc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Gump

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Re: Careers in art

Post by oldcomputerguy » Sat May 18, 2019 5:51 pm

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