What non frugal things save money?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Darwin
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by Darwin » Sun May 12, 2019 11:56 pm

Xrayman69 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:52 am
Using your gym membership or activities that get your body or keep yourself fit. I know there are cheaper and “free” methods but seems physically going to a gym or walking 9 holes of golf pushing my bag is at least also enjoyable to an extent.
My job (climbing mountains) doesn't pay particularly well, but it makes gym memberships a moot point!
No planet, no business. Earth bats last.

Darwin
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by Darwin » Mon May 13, 2019 12:02 am

unclescrooge wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 1:26 am
I decided to go to the bank for a wire transfer instead of doing it online.

This would cost me more time and an extra $10 in fees. But I was willing to spend this to make sure I didn't make a mistake. Having an extra set of eyes was worth it to me.

Making a mistake in a large wire to save $10 can cause a lot of grief!

As an added bonus the bank employee asked me which account I wanted to use. Apparently I had an account from 2006 with $5,000 that was dormant and I didn't even know existed! :shock:
What about doing one's own gardening? The main point is the enjoyment of working outside with plants, but incidentally it saves money and keeps you healthy.
No planet, no business. Earth bats last.

FI4LIFE
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by FI4LIFE » Mon May 13, 2019 7:59 am

Prahasaurus wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:22 pm
For men, good dress shoes, made from high quality leather, Goodyear welted. If you aren't paying at least 300 USD, you probably have a very inferior pair of shoes (or you found a great bargain).

While expensive, high quality leather shoes pay off long term. With cheaper shoes (approx 100-200 USD),made from inferior leather and poorly stitched, you can throw them in the trash after 1 year of usage. With high quality shoes, they can last a lifetime. Yes, you need to take care of them, and that is not free. But it's cheaper than buying new. The high quality leather can create a nice patina over time, as well.

Shoes made from higher quality leather are usually much more comfortable. It's a pleasure wearing them all day, unlike cheap shoes.

You will get a lot of compliments with a high quality shoe, trust me. Men don't really have a lot of options to impress with conservative dress, but shoes are one area that can make a big difference. You look better, people notice.

So great long term value.

I haven't bought new dress shoes in 4 years. I have about 6-7 pairs that I rotate regularly, clean and polish as needed, and get lots of compliments. Yes, the initial investment was high, but it's definitely paid off.

See here for a good breakdown: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/100-v ... shoes-men/
I've had the same dress shoes for 4-5 years. Never pay much more than $100. Then again, I'm a slob.

GlennK
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by GlennK » Mon May 13, 2019 8:07 am

Top99% wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:28 am
Buying pacific wild salmon at the grocery store is more expensive than farm raised salmon (or certainly chicken) but certainly less expensive than going out to eat for what will probably be an unhealthy meal. And I believe spending money on healthy and delicious food will pay off down the road in reduced health care costs. Shoes which cost more up front but are easier on your feet and/or re-soleable can also save money down the road.
+1 on the food. Wild caught fish is so much better tasting than farm raised. Worth it to me (at least when there's a sale :D )

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Watty
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by Watty » Mon May 13, 2019 8:39 am

What non frugal things save money?
My basic car buying strategy is to buy new base model cars that have a reliable reputation that don't depreciate quickly. Usually a Toyota or Honda, my current car is the proverbial Boglehead Corolla. I then plan on selling them when they are about ten years old or have maybe 120K miles on them.

I don't do many car repairs myself and I have found that I will seldom have to pay for non-routine maintenance and something like a ten year old Toyota will sell for a surprisingly good price if you sell it yourself. I once sold a nine year old Camry with 130k miles for about a third of what it cost when it was new.

A couple of caveats though;

1) I start watching the car market when my current car gets to be about nine years old so I can wait to buy when there are very good deals available. I negotiate my car purchase by email so that I have a "done deal" by the time I go to the dealership.

2) I usually sell my car myself. One thing to realize is that when you look up a cars price on the internet that is only an average and half the cars will sell for more than that.

3) If you could/would do many of your own car repairs then keeping a car longer would make more sense. I don't.

4) By having a newer car I also have newer safety features which is worth a non trivial amount to me.

It might be a stretch to say this saves money but when you look at the money costs of depreciation and non-routine maintenance it is not all that much different than driving an older car that is not a beater.

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Psyayeayeduck
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by Psyayeayeduck » Mon May 13, 2019 8:42 am

Anything that separates me from the ground I spend a little more for quality -- beds, shoes, tires, etc.

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augryphon
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by augryphon » Mon May 13, 2019 8:46 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:50 pm
Prahasaurus wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:22 pm
For men, good dress shoes, made from high quality leather, Goodyear welted. If you aren't paying at least 300 USD, you probably have a very inferior pair of shoes (or you found a great bargain).

While expensive, high quality leather shoes pay off long term. With cheaper shoes (approx 100-200 USD),made from inferior leather and poorly stitched, you can throw them in the trash after 1 year of usage. With high quality shoes, they can last a lifetime. Yes, you need to take care of them, and that is not free. But it's cheaper than buying new. The high quality leather can create a nice patina over time, as well.

Shoes made from higher quality leather are usually much more comfortable. It's a pleasure wearing them all day, unlike cheap shoes.

You will get a lot of compliments with a high quality shoe, trust me. Men don't really have a lot of options to impress with conservative dress, but shoes are one area that can make a big difference. You look better, people notice.

So great long term value.

I haven't bought new dress shoes in 4 years. I have about 6-7 pairs that I rotate regularly, clean and polish as needed, and get lots of compliments. Yes, the initial investment was high, but it's definitely paid off.

See here for a good breakdown: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/100-v ... shoes-men/
I've never spent close to $100 on a pair of dress shoes. I still regularly wear the pair I bought for my prom...23yrs ago. I'm sure high-end shoes are nice and they may get some added attention, but I always wonder what people are doing with there's when they say they don't last. My "cheap" dress shoes last me decades. I currently have 4 pairs, with the newest being ~3yrs old. I'm a young (38) exec in a large company, I've never had someone comment that my shoes were cheap; maybe they've thought it, but it certainly hasn't impacted my career progression.
Mega-corp buys my shoes, steel toe industrial safety type. get a $200 stipend each year, buy a new pair about every 3-4 yrs for around $100, and spend the remainder on $400 dress shoes-NOT. Keen's safety shoes are super comfortable, so much so that I wear them hiking on the weekends. You can shop around online and get a great price.

lazydavid
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by lazydavid » Mon May 13, 2019 10:45 am

Raybo wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:30 pm
Traveling by bicycle means no car rentals, train fares, or airplane tickets. Getting hosted for free saves boatloads of money on hotels (though it requires a lot of time to set-up and doesn’t always work) and let’s you live like a local.
But is also quite limiting. It would be impossible for me (in Illinois) to take my family to visit family and friends in Florida with a week off of work. Or even with a month off.

DesertDiva
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by DesertDiva » Mon May 13, 2019 10:50 am

A sonicare toothbrush. It was not a frugal purchase, especially when you can get free toothbrushes from the dentist and not have to pay for the replacement heads. However with daily use (and flossing) my hygienist visits have been great. I still take the free toothbrushes and put them in our guest bathroom.
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DrGoogle2017
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:02 am

I bought some peony bulbs recently, save money, no, but if they bloom, it will save our sanity from the Ho hum of looking at pink blooms everywhere. I need some diversity in my flower garden.

TheOscarGuy
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by TheOscarGuy » Mon May 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Prahasaurus wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:22 pm
For men, good dress shoes, made from high quality leather, Goodyear welted. If you aren't paying at least 300 USD, you probably have a very inferior pair of shoes (or you found a great bargain).

While expensive, high quality leather shoes pay off long term. With cheaper shoes (approx 100-200 USD),made from inferior leather and poorly stitched, you can throw them in the trash after 1 year of usage. With high quality shoes, they can last a lifetime. Yes, you need to take care of them, and that is not free. But it's cheaper than buying new. The high quality leather can create a nice patina over time, as well.

Shoes made from higher quality leather are usually much more comfortable. It's a pleasure wearing them all day, unlike cheap shoes.

You will get a lot of compliments with a high quality shoe, trust me. Men don't really have a lot of options to impress with conservative dress, but shoes are one area that can make a big difference. You look better, people notice.

So great long term value.

I haven't bought new dress shoes in 4 years. I have about 6-7 pairs that I rotate regularly, clean and polish as needed, and get lots of compliments. Yes, the initial investment was high, but it's definitely paid off.

See here for a good breakdown: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/100-v ... shoes-men/
I wouldn't know as I don't need to dress up for work. I wear sneakers and jeans to work, and usually am pretty happy with my sneakers purchase. Sometimes I buy boots, and to me spending on Merrell seems like a splurge. It isn't in the same category as your dress shoes, but they are certainly not cheap and are comfortable and last a long time.

lazydavid
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by lazydavid » Mon May 13, 2019 12:39 pm

TheOscarGuy wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:29 pm
I wouldn't know as I don't need to dress up for work. I wear sneakers and jeans to work, and usually am pretty happy with my sneakers purchase. Sometimes I buy boots, and to me spending on Merrell seems like a splurge. It isn't in the same category as your dress shoes, but they are certainly not cheap and are comfortable and last a long time.
Merrells are definitely a worthy splurge. I typically get about 5,000 miles out of a pair, though I usually have to replace the laces once during that time. I've worn other brands of shoes in under 1,000 miles.

For me, coffee roasting falls into this topic. I paid $600 for a relatively modest roaster, and $5-6/lb for beans, which allows me to drink coffee equivalent to what I would pay $18-25/lb for purchasing pre-roasted beans.

mariezzz
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by mariezzz » Mon May 13, 2019 5:10 pm

unclescrooge wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 9:10 am
celia wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:11 am
unclescrooge wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 1:26 am
As an added bonus the bank employee asked me which account I wanted to use. Apparently I had an account from 2006 with $5,000 that was dormant and I didn't even know existed! :shock:
Something's wrong with that bank or their processes! Why didn't they warn you you earlier, then send the money to your state's unclaimed property? Accounts that haven't been touched for several years (3?, 5?, might be state-dependent?) are supposed to be turned over.

What if you had died and your estate did due diligence in locating all your accounts, including inquiring with the state, and this money was never located?


As for us, we recently bought a new car with lots of safety features built in, hoping it will minimize a future possible mishap (which could save expenses, health, and time).
It was a corporate account in my name.

It doesn't show up under my login. I've been to the bank several times over the past decade and not one person mentioned it.

I'm just surprised they didn't start charging monthly fees and drain it.
Since you had another account, they may have treated all your accounts as 'active'.

mariezzz
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by mariezzz » Mon May 13, 2019 5:12 pm

DesertDiva wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:50 am
A sonicare toothbrush. It was not a frugal purchase, especially when you can get free toothbrushes from the dentist and not have to pay for the replacement heads. However with daily use (and flossing) my hygienist visits have been great. I still take the free toothbrushes and put them in our guest bathroom.
+1 on the sonicare.

Free toothbrushes/paste can be donated to food pantries or homeless shelters, too.

mariezzz
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by mariezzz » Mon May 13, 2019 5:22 pm

I learned in my college years that buying cheaply made clothing simply meant they started looking ratty faster. So, I stopped shopping for clothes at places like Target and stepped up to dept stores and Eddie Bauer (which had a very different selection 15-20 years ago than it has today).

These days, most clothing at dept stores, even Nordstrom, are so cheaply made, seams fall apart very quickly and the clothing looks ratty quite quickly. (The clothing I turned my nose up (during college years) at Target was better quality than most that is sold today, but quality at Target has further declined.)

I've narrowed it down to just a few brands I'll buy. Time to start sewing one's clothes.

H-Town
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by H-Town » Mon May 13, 2019 5:33 pm

SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm
If you drive a lot, buying a new EV car can actually save money. I was spending $5.5K/year in gas on driving 25K miles/year. I bought a Model 3 ($62K). Electricty for the same miles would be $800/year. But we produce excess energy from solar, so fuel costs are near zero. And the Model 3 is pretty much maintenance free. So over a 5-year period, I estimate I will save $32.5K on gas and maintenance (estimating $1k/year maintenance since the prior car was almost out of warranty). Add $10K for state/fed tax credit and $18K for trade-in, and the total 5-year out-of-pocket net cost after savings is $1,500 plus $6K sales tax, or $7.5K.

The 5-year resale value of the Tesla vs keeping my prior car for 5 more years is very likely to be > $7.5K, so buying the Tesla actually saves money over 5 years.
Hmm... that must be premium gas and you live in a high gas price state. Still, buying a 5-year used Civic would actually save you money vs. Tesla Model 3. You are justifying buying Model 3. Nothing wrong with it if you can afford it.

stoptothink
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by stoptothink » Mon May 13, 2019 8:19 pm

H-Town wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:33 pm
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm
If you drive a lot, buying a new EV car can actually save money. I was spending $5.5K/year in gas on driving 25K miles/year. I bought a Model 3 ($62K). Electricty for the same miles would be $800/year. But we produce excess energy from solar, so fuel costs are near zero. And the Model 3 is pretty much maintenance free. So over a 5-year period, I estimate I will save $32.5K on gas and maintenance (estimating $1k/year maintenance since the prior car was almost out of warranty). Add $10K for state/fed tax credit and $18K for trade-in, and the total 5-year out-of-pocket net cost after savings is $1,500 plus $6K sales tax, or $7.5K.

The 5-year resale value of the Tesla vs keeping my prior car for 5 more years is very likely to be > $7.5K, so buying the Tesla actually saves money over 5 years.
Hmm... that must be premium gas and you live in a high gas price state. Still, buying a 5-year used Civic would actually save you money vs. Tesla Model 3. You are justifying buying Model 3. Nothing wrong with it if you can afford it.
This is exactly how Tesla calculates their cost to own. Total rubbish. They are nice cars; they have a "nice car" pricetag, no matter how you attempt to spin it.

sc9182
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by sc9182 » Mon May 13, 2019 9:11 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:19 pm
H-Town wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:33 pm
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm
If you drive a lot, buying a new EV car can actually save money. I was spending $5.5K/year in gas on driving 25K miles/year. I bought a Model 3 ($62K). Electricty for the same miles would be $800/year. But we produce excess energy from solar, so fuel costs are near zero. And the Model 3 is pretty much maintenance free. So over a 5-year period, I estimate I will save $32.5K on gas and maintenance (estimating $1k/year maintenance since the prior car was almost out of warranty). Add $10K for state/fed tax credit and $18K for trade-in, and the total 5-year out-of-pocket net cost after savings is $1,500 plus $6K sales tax, or $7.5K.

The 5-year resale value of the Tesla vs keeping my prior car for 5 more years is very likely to be > $7.5K, so buying the Tesla actually saves money over 5 years.
Hmm... that must be premium gas and you live in a high gas price state. Still, buying a 5-year used Civic would actually save you money vs. Tesla Model 3. You are justifying buying Model 3. Nothing wrong with it if you can afford it.
This is exactly how Tesla calculates their cost to own. Total rubbish. They are nice cars; they have a "nice car" pricetag, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
Though this may be an extreme case of gas Vs Electric car savings (possibly a premium gas guzzler Vs Electric sipper like Tesla), don’t necessarily throw out the savings part.

Is fuel savings alone justifies electric/Tesla car purchase ? Doubt in-itself fuel savings alone be the case for justifying Tesla purchase especially if you averaging about 12k-15k miles per year.

A bud of mine from TX has shown his savings: besides the obvious Fuel savings: a few additional things that could add to better experience: fast inspection on Electric vehicles (no emissions required), at only $7 along with free car wash (vs $40 annual for gas vehicles). No need to ever stop at gas stations, stress reducing commutes with Autopilot, let alone worrying about what is the best gas price at what stations today (know there are tools/apps to optimize- but how about not worrying about one additional piece of puzzle you have to solve on your daily commute!). He got about 18k miles on his Tesla 3, and all he had to do was free tire rotation (apparently free at Discount/American tire). Total cost of out of pocket: $7 so far in an year (besides the apparent fuel savings). But is $30k-$52k net cost, is it worth that price - let the market forces decide. He definitely thinks it’s worth it - but how do one justify a premium/luxury/German car purchase compared to 5-year old Civic - have you try to reason that yet !?
Last edited by sc9182 on Tue May 14, 2019 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

SCV_Lawyer
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by SCV_Lawyer » Tue May 14, 2019 6:53 am

stoptothink wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:19 pm
H-Town wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:33 pm
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm
If you drive a lot, buying a new EV car can actually save money. I was spending $5.5K/year in gas on driving 25K miles/year. I bought a Model 3 ($62K). Electricty for the same miles would be $800/year. But we produce excess energy from solar, so fuel costs are near zero. And the Model 3 is pretty much maintenance free. So over a 5-year period, I estimate I will save $32.5K on gas and maintenance (estimating $1k/year maintenance since the prior car was almost out of warranty). Add $10K for state/fed tax credit and $18K for trade-in, and the total 5-year out-of-pocket net cost after savings is $1,500 plus $6K sales tax, or $7.5K.

The 5-year resale value of the Tesla vs keeping my prior car for 5 more years is very likely to be > $7.5K, so buying the Tesla actually saves money over 5 years.
Hmm... that must be premium gas and you live in a high gas price state. Still, buying a 5-year used Civic would actually save you money vs. Tesla Model 3. You are justifying buying Model 3. Nothing wrong with it if you can afford it.
This is exactly how Tesla calculates their cost to own. Total rubbish. They are nice cars; they have a "nice car" pricetag, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
But you have to compare apples to apples. I was driving a 2015 Hyundai Genesis with a V8. So yes, premium gas, not great gas mileage, California gas prices, but really fast. Moving to a Honda Civic is not the same car in any universe. I could also just trade it in for a bike. But if I want to stay in the same class of car, why not buy one that has zero fuel costs for me and close to zero maintenance costs? I ran an IRR calculation on Excel using what I believe to be fair resale values of each car in five years, and I actually have a positive investment in buying the Tesla versus keeping the Genesis for five more years.

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fizxman
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by fizxman » Tue May 14, 2019 6:55 am

The free coffee I get at work is awful. So I go in with a coworker and buy a big bag of Dunkin Donuts brand from BJ's. This saves me from (a) having to buy a big bag on my own and (b) stopping at a local coffee shop every day.

lazydavid
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by lazydavid » Tue May 14, 2019 7:42 am

SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:53 am
But you have to compare apples to apples. I was driving a 2015 Hyundai Genesis with a V8. So yes, premium gas, not great gas mileage, California gas prices, but really fast. Moving to a Honda Civic is not the same car in any universe. I could also just trade it in for a bike. But if I want to stay in the same class of car, why not buy one that has zero fuel costs for me and close to zero maintenance costs? I ran an IRR calculation on Excel using what I believe to be fair resale values of each car in five years, and I actually have a positive investment in buying the Tesla versus keeping the Genesis for five more years.
Since when are the Hyundai Genesis and Tesla Model 3 in the same class? The Genesis is meant to compete on value with the BMW 5-series, Mercedes E-class, Audi A6, and the short wheelbase versions of the BMW 7-Series and Lexus LS. The Model 3 is intended to compete with the BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS, all VASTLY smaller than your car. The Genesis G70 would be the closest comparison to the Model 3.

SCV_Lawyer
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by SCV_Lawyer » Tue May 14, 2019 8:35 am

lazydavid wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:42 am
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:53 am
But you have to compare apples to apples. I was driving a 2015 Hyundai Genesis with a V8. So yes, premium gas, not great gas mileage, California gas prices, but really fast. Moving to a Honda Civic is not the same car in any universe. I could also just trade it in for a bike. But if I want to stay in the same class of car, why not buy one that has zero fuel costs for me and close to zero maintenance costs? I ran an IRR calculation on Excel using what I believe to be fair resale values of each car in five years, and I actually have a positive investment in buying the Tesla versus keeping the Genesis for five more years.
Since when are the Hyundai Genesis and Tesla Model 3 in the same class? The Genesis is meant to compete on value with the BMW 5-series, Mercedes E-class, Audi A6, and the short wheelbase versions of the BMW 7-Series and Lexus LS. The Model 3 is intended to compete with the BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS, all VASTLY smaller than your car. The Genesis G70 would be the closest comparison to the Model 3.
Only 12 inches difference in length. More trunk room and more leg in the Tesla because no drivetrain getting in the way. Especially using the middle back seat with no hump. So shorter but not really smaller in the ways that matter. And Tesla is faster, quicker, more fun. So pros and cons, but on balance, very comparable.

And again, I am probably saving $8k-10k over 5 years.

And finally, although no one would accuse me of being a greenie in any sense of the word, it is nice to know I am no longer burning 1400 gallons of fuel per year. What's not to love?

SCV_Lawyer
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by SCV_Lawyer » Tue May 14, 2019 8:36 am

SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:35 am
lazydavid wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:42 am
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:53 am
But you have to compare apples to apples. I was driving a 2015 Hyundai Genesis with a V8. So yes, premium gas, not great gas mileage, California gas prices, but really fast. Moving to a Honda Civic is not the same car in any universe. I could also just trade it in for a bike. But if I want to stay in the same class of car, why not buy one that has zero fuel costs for me and close to zero maintenance costs? I ran an IRR calculation on Excel using what I believe to be fair resale values of each car in five years, and I actually have a positive investment in buying the Tesla versus keeping the Genesis for five more years.
Since when are the Hyundai Genesis and Tesla Model 3 in the same class? The Genesis is meant to compete on value with the BMW 5-series, Mercedes E-class, Audi A6, and the short wheelbase versions of the BMW 7-Series and Lexus LS. The Model 3 is intended to compete with the BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS, all VASTLY smaller than your car. The Genesis G70 would be the closest comparison to the Model 3.
Only 12 inches difference in length. More trunk room and more leg in the Tesla because no drivetrain getting in the way. Especially using the middle back seat with no hump. So shorter but not really smaller in the ways that matter. And Tesla is faster, quicker, more fun. So pros and cons, but on balance, very comparable.

And again, I am probably saving $8k-10k over 5 years.

And finally, although no one would accuse me of being a greenie in any sense of the word, it is nice to know I am no longer burning 1400 gallons of fuel per year. What's not to love?
Oh, yeah, and Tesla has 60/40 seats versus just a pass through in the Genesis. Again, more actual room in a slightly shorter car.

lazydavid
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by lazydavid » Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 am

SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:35 am
Only 12 inches difference in length.
"Only" is a curious word in this context. Twelve inches is also known as "the difference between vehicle size classes", which is exactly the point I was making. :D The difference between a subcompact Kia Rio and an Audi A4 is 12 inches. The difference between the A4 and the A6 is 12 inches. The difference between the A6 and the standard-wheelbase S8 is 14 inches. The difference between the Model S and the Model 3 is 11 inches.

Put another way, a luxury flagship is "only" 3 feet longer than a subcompact economy car.

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bottlecap
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by bottlecap » Tue May 14, 2019 8:51 am

I will go more expensive if it's something that has demonstrated it will last longer/is more durable.

Function is important, too. For instance, I am willing to go more expensive in protective sports equipment, especially for things like my head, back and butt. It often saves pain and, occasionally, a doctor's visit.

JT

H-Town
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by H-Town » Tue May 14, 2019 9:50 am

SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:53 am
stoptothink wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:19 pm
H-Town wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:33 pm
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm
If you drive a lot, buying a new EV car can actually save money. I was spending $5.5K/year in gas on driving 25K miles/year. I bought a Model 3 ($62K). Electricty for the same miles would be $800/year. But we produce excess energy from solar, so fuel costs are near zero. And the Model 3 is pretty much maintenance free. So over a 5-year period, I estimate I will save $32.5K on gas and maintenance (estimating $1k/year maintenance since the prior car was almost out of warranty). Add $10K for state/fed tax credit and $18K for trade-in, and the total 5-year out-of-pocket net cost after savings is $1,500 plus $6K sales tax, or $7.5K.

The 5-year resale value of the Tesla vs keeping my prior car for 5 more years is very likely to be > $7.5K, so buying the Tesla actually saves money over 5 years.
Hmm... that must be premium gas and you live in a high gas price state. Still, buying a 5-year used Civic would actually save you money vs. Tesla Model 3. You are justifying buying Model 3. Nothing wrong with it if you can afford it.
This is exactly how Tesla calculates their cost to own. Total rubbish. They are nice cars; they have a "nice car" pricetag, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
But you have to compare apples to apples. I was driving a 2015 Hyundai Genesis with a V8. So yes, premium gas, not great gas mileage, California gas prices, but really fast. Moving to a Honda Civic is not the same car in any universe. I could also just trade it in for a bike. But if I want to stay in the same class of car, why not buy one that has zero fuel costs for me and close to zero maintenance costs? I ran an IRR calculation on Excel using what I believe to be fair resale values of each car in five years, and I actually have a positive investment in buying the Tesla versus keeping the Genesis for five more years.
Your IRR calc might be bias to justify the purchase. I can't imagine you would come out ahead with those 2 bad factors:

- Trade in your 2015 Genesis V8 for 18k, whereas the market price for this car is going at 25k. Ignore the 7k loss, you trade away probably 10 more years with zero car depreciation - or in other words - no car payments for 10+ years that you keep the old Genesis, which is a very very nice car. Using conservative estimate, that's $5k a year of savings.

- 62k cash outlay to buy a new Model 3.

Strictly in financial sense, buying Model 3 does not give you value on the dollars spent. Your decision probably won't increase your net worth.. but hell... for your personal enjoyment, I believe you have a blast to drive Model 3.

azanon
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:34 am
Location: Little Rock, AR
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Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by azanon » Tue May 14, 2019 11:00 am

fizxman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:55 am
The free coffee I get at work is awful. So I go in with a coworker and buy a big bag of Dunkin Donuts brand from BJ's. This saves me from (a) having to buy a big bag on my own and (b) stopping at a local coffee shop every day.
Only do that (buy a "big" bag) if it's whole beans. If this is ground coffee, a freshly opened (smaller) bag of mediocre coffee will blow away a high quality, large bag of ground coffee that's been exposed to air for weeks on end.

Caduceus
Posts: 1856
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:47 am

Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by Caduceus » Tue May 14, 2019 2:40 pm

In the long run, things that improve your health probably would fall into this category. We have three large HEPA air purifiers throughout the apartment that costs a bit to run (because the filters need to be replaced). I am very frugal on most things (almost never buy clothes and shoes) but spend quite a bit more on healthy groceries (fruits, vegetables, seafood, but no meat)

SCV_Lawyer
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by SCV_Lawyer » Tue May 14, 2019 2:42 pm

H-Town wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:50 am
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:53 am
stoptothink wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:19 pm
H-Town wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:33 pm
SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm
If you drive a lot, buying a new EV car can actually save money. I was spending $5.5K/year in gas on driving 25K miles/year. I bought a Model 3 ($62K). Electricty for the same miles would be $800/year. But we produce excess energy from solar, so fuel costs are near zero. And the Model 3 is pretty much maintenance free. So over a 5-year period, I estimate I will save $32.5K on gas and maintenance (estimating $1k/year maintenance since the prior car was almost out of warranty). Add $10K for state/fed tax credit and $18K for trade-in, and the total 5-year out-of-pocket net cost after savings is $1,500 plus $6K sales tax, or $7.5K.

The 5-year resale value of the Tesla vs keeping my prior car for 5 more years is very likely to be > $7.5K, so buying the Tesla actually saves money over 5 years.
Hmm... that must be premium gas and you live in a high gas price state. Still, buying a 5-year used Civic would actually save you money vs. Tesla Model 3. You are justifying buying Model 3. Nothing wrong with it if you can afford it.
This is exactly how Tesla calculates their cost to own. Total rubbish. They are nice cars; they have a "nice car" pricetag, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
But you have to compare apples to apples. I was driving a 2015 Hyundai Genesis with a V8. So yes, premium gas, not great gas mileage, California gas prices, but really fast. Moving to a Honda Civic is not the same car in any universe. I could also just trade it in for a bike. But if I want to stay in the same class of car, why not buy one that has zero fuel costs for me and close to zero maintenance costs? I ran an IRR calculation on Excel using what I believe to be fair resale values of each car in five years, and I actually have a positive investment in buying the Tesla versus keeping the Genesis for five more years.
Your IRR calc might be bias to justify the purchase. I can't imagine you would come out ahead with those 2 bad factors:

- Trade in your 2015 Genesis V8 for 18k, whereas the market price for this car is going at 25k. Ignore the 7k loss, you trade away probably 10 more years with zero car depreciation - or in other words - no car payments for 10+ years that you keep the old Genesis, which is a very very nice car. Using conservative estimate, that's $5k a year of savings.

- 62k cash outlay to buy a new Model 3.

Strictly in financial sense, buying Model 3 does not give you value on the dollars spent. Your decision probably won't increase your net worth.. but hell... for your personal enjoyment, I believe you have a blast to drive Model 3.
On the trade-in value, all I can say is I brought the Genesis to CarMax and an AutoNation dealer, and one offered me $17K and one offered me $18K. Don't know where you are getting $25K. Maybe retail from a dealer? I couldn't even get $25K if a did a private sale. Maybe $20K at most, but $2K is not worth the hassle of a private sale.

And there is no way that adding 125K miles more to the Genesis over 5 years has no effect on residual value at the end of 5 years. Would you seriously pay the same for a 5-year old car that has 80K miles versus a 10-year old car that has 200K miles?? Of course not -- that is silly.

Here are my figures for costs (acquisition, gas, maintenance and sale after 5 years):

Tesla:

Year 0: -$40K ($62K + $6K tax - $18K trade - $10K tax credit)
Year 1: $0
Year 2: $0
Year 3: $0
Year 4: $0
Year 5: $25K (assumes a 40% residual value after 5 years)

Genesis:

Year 0: $0 (no cost to keep the car)
Year 1: -$6,500
Year 2: -$6,500
Year 3: -$6,500
Year 4: -$6,500
Year 5: $2,500 (assumes $9K residual after 5 additional years and 125K more miles, less $6,500 gas and maintenance for year 5)

Difference (Tesla costs minus Genesis costs):

Year 0: -$40,000
Year 1: $6,500
Year 2: $6,500
Year 3: $6,500
Year 4 $6,500
Year 5: $22,500

IRR of difference= +5.5%.

And to be clear, I wasn't actually trying to justify the purchase. After we had solar for a year, we saw that we had an $800 credit for net generation (this is not actually paid to me by the utility, it is just zeroed out at the end of the year). So we were essentially wasting $800/year. I then did the math assuming zero fuel costs for the Tesla and got the above results.

I have a 50/50 portfolio, so maybe 5.5% is a wash on what I could earn over the same period, but certainly not a bad investment.

H-Town
Posts: 1641
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by H-Town » Tue May 14, 2019 5:12 pm

SCV_Lawyer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:42 pm
On the trade-in value, all I can say is I brought the Genesis to CarMax and an AutoNation dealer, and one offered me $17K and one offered me $18K. Don't know where you are getting $25K. Maybe retail from a dealer? I couldn't even get $25K if a did a private sale. Maybe $20K at most, but $2K is not worth the hassle of a private sale.

And there is no way that adding 125K miles more to the Genesis over 5 years has no effect on residual value at the end of 5 years. Would you seriously pay the same for a 5-year old car that has 80K miles versus a 10-year old car that has 200K miles?? Of course not -- that is silly.

Here are my figures for costs (acquisition, gas, maintenance and sale after 5 years):

Tesla:

Year 0: -$40K ($62K + $6K tax - $18K trade - $10K tax credit)
Year 1: $0
Year 2: $0
Year 3: $0
Year 4: $0
Year 5: $25K (assumes a 40% residual value after 5 years)

Genesis:

Year 0: $0 (no cost to keep the car)
Year 1: -$6,500
Year 2: -$6,500
Year 3: -$6,500
Year 4: -$6,500
Year 5: $2,500 (assumes $9K residual after 5 additional years and 125K more miles, less $6,500 gas and maintenance for year 5)

Difference (Tesla costs minus Genesis costs):

Year 0: -$40,000
Year 1: $6,500
Year 2: $6,500
Year 3: $6,500
Year 4 $6,500
Year 5: $22,500

IRR of difference= +5.5%.

And to be clear, I wasn't actually trying to justify the purchase. After we had solar for a year, we saw that we had an $800 credit for net generation (this is not actually paid to me by the utility, it is just zeroed out at the end of the year). So we were essentially wasting $800/year. I then did the math assuming zero fuel costs for the Tesla and got the above results.

I have a 50/50 portfolio, so maybe 5.5% is a wash on what I could earn over the same period, but certainly not a bad investment.
Good for you to take advantage of tax credit and the solar panel. That's a good decision given your situation.

However, I would prefer the Genesis V8 over Model 3, but it's just my preference. In TX, it costs about $2.80 - $3.00 for premium gas. With 20,000 average annual mileage and 20 mpg average, it'd cost me about $3k a year for gas. Not bad price to pay for to drive the Genesis V8.

Quaestner
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Re: What non frugal things save money?

Post by Quaestner » Wed May 15, 2019 5:40 pm

It is non-frugal to give my daughter Roth IRA money. (She graduated from nursing school this week!) Although the jury is still out whether she has the discipline to leave it alone, it may save money compared to leaving it in a taxable account (from which she might later receive a gift or inherit).

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