Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

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inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Are all your Airport Extremes identical? Which generation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort_E ... ison_chart
Apple did something only Apple does. They made the requirement that the main router that connects your home to the Internet also be an Airport Extreme, otherwise the Guest Network simply does not work.
Not for the faint of heart, but explains why Guest Networking isn't working.
ENABLE VLAN 1003 ON YOUR SWITCH
If you’re Airport Extreme is not connected directly to your router, you’ll need to enable VLAN tagging on the the ports of your switch in order for it to pass the VLAN 1003 802.1q tags to your router.
...
CONFIGURE YOUR ROUTER TO IMITATE THE AIRPORT EXTREME GUEST NETWORK
At this point traffic should be passing all the way to your router, but your router doesn’t know what to do with it, and since there is no DHCP server on this VLAN, connected devices cannot get an IP address.

This is going to be very specific to your type of router, and not all routers support VLANs.
https://www.thegeekpub.com/5191/use-air ... idge-mode/

bryanm
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by bryanm » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:09 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:48 pm
Not for the faint of heart, but explains why Guest Networking isn't working.
ENABLE VLAN 1003 ON YOUR SWITCH
If you’re Airport Extreme is not connected directly to your router, you’ll need to enable VLAN tagging on the the ports of your switch in order for it to pass the VLAN 1003 802.1q tags to your router.
...
CONFIGURE YOUR ROUTER TO IMITATE THE AIRPORT EXTREME GUEST NETWORK
At this point traffic should be passing all the way to your router, but your router doesn’t know what to do with it, and since there is no DHCP server on this VLAN, connected devices cannot get an IP address.

This is going to be very specific to your type of router, and not all routers support VLANs.
https://www.thegeekpub.com/5191/use-air ... idge-mode/
The linked article assumes one has a separate router (not the Airport) that supports VLAN tagging, which I don't believe the OP does. It also doesn't discuss roaming of a guest network between multiple WAPs (which I believe OP wants). Basically, a rabbit hole that I don't think it's worth going down.

inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:27 pm

bryanm wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:09 pm
The linked article assumes one has a separate router (not the Airport) that supports VLAN tagging, which I don't believe the OP does. It also doesn't discuss roaming of a guest network between multiple WAPs (which I believe OP wants). Basically, a rabbit hole that I don't think it's worth going down.
Yes, it's quite a deep rabbit hole. I only quoted it as an explanation, not a solution. And even if the FIOS router did support these hacks, the likelihood is users won't be able to make the modifications.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:30 pm
I don't know why cabana and garage don't work with the same network name when plugged into the FIOS router.
I'm not familiar with the history whether the technology was half baked or Apple purposefully made it that way to keep other products incompatible. There are conspiracy theories that Apple purposefully creates roadblocks so their products don't work well with others, which I'm sure they've done on occasion, but I'm of the mindset that Apple builds proprietary systems that aren't designed to work well with others, they're just busy getting their own systems to work and they don't care to create open standards. So the result is not by intention, but by neglect, but the effect is the same.

shawndoggy
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by shawndoggy » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:51 pm

So the EASY way for this to definitely work, is to (a) jettison FIOS router for more simple FIOS modem, and then (b) hook up google mesh. You will have working primary and guest networks and it should be done in less than an hour.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:08 pm

shawndoggy wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:51 pm
So the EASY way for this to definitely work, is to (a) jettison FIOS router for more simple FIOS modem, and then (b) hook up google mesh. You will have working primary and guest networks and it should be done in less than an hour.
(a) My understanding is that Fios gigabit doesn’t have a modem that can be purchased/ordered. I was told that the only option was a gateway.

(b) There are other options besides google mesh.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

WhyNotUs
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by WhyNotUs » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:12 pm

I have the same router and it has a heavily used guest network. Three years in I think it is better than my old Extreme.

/
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:15 am
OP,

I have good experience with this router and I bought two for my kids to be used in their colleges. And, the price is great! It is less than $50.

https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC1750-S ... 621a6b118d

KlangFool
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nordsteve
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by nordsteve » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:18 pm

I'll echo the other Unifi recommendations. Set them up and never touched them again. Ceiling mounted so they're out of the way.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:57 pm

nordsteve wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:18 pm
I'll echo the other Unifi recommendations. Set them up and never touched them again. Ceiling mounted so they're out of the way.
There were two old ones installed at the house when we moved in. Apparently they work well, but they’re plug ugly. I’d consider them if they were just placed on a surface; ceiling or wall mount won’t pass muster.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:00 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:01 am
Because of a bunch of "inside baseball" stuff, the Extremes do not reliably support a Guest Network; you have to ignore Double NAT and in any case, the Guest Network doesn't connect to the Internet. PITA.
I read up on the Guest Network/Double NAT issues. It's not fun.

This DMZ would be a helpful configuration. Turning off NAT on FIOS router may be better.

Image

https://www.podfeet.com/blog/tutorials- ... t-extreme/

How's the Office, Sunroom and Downstairs Guest Network usability? Can you surf the web? What is giving you trouble?

Who's your ISP provider? What's the make/model of the ISP FIOS modem/router? Have you looked for ways to turn off NAT? Is there a DMZ IP setup? Is this the "inside baseball" stuff you've already gone through? If you have some level of control of the ISP device, you have some hope of making your current setup better, otherwise is to the drawing board and cross of that no mesh option.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:33 pm

How's the Office, Sunroom and Downstairs Guest Network usability? Can you surf the web? What is giving you trouble?

Who's your ISP provider? What's the make/model of the ISP FIOS modem/router? Have you looked for ways to turn off NAT? Is there a DMZ IP setup? Is this the "inside baseball" stuff you've already gone through? If you have some level of control of the ISP device, you have some hope of making your current setup better, otherwise is to the drawing board and cross of that no mesh option.
Usability is wonderful; my phone gets 400Mbps near the WAP, and handoffs are smooth when roaming. They are stable.

There’s an outside chance that I could make the above diagram work. But, I suspect that it would be fragile, and I don’t think anyone, including me, wants to manage it.

I will leave well enough alone, until I make a decision that a separate network for Internet of Things is a necessity. Then, I will select either Advanced WAPs that support multiple SSIDs (or, at a minimum, guest neteorks) or a mesh system with Ethernet backhaul that don’t require a kludge to configure.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:50 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:33 pm
Usability is wonderful; my phone gets 400Mbps near the WAP, and handoffs are smooth when roaming. They are stable.

There’s an outside chance that I could make the above diagram work. But, I suspect that it would be fragile, and I don’t think anyone, including me, wants to manage it.

I will leave well enough alone, until I make a decision that a separate network for Internet of Things is a necessity. Then, I will select either Advanced WAPs that support multiple SSIDs (or, at a minimum, guest neteorks) or a mesh system with Ethernet backhaul that don’t require a kludge to configure.
If you haven't been into the FIOS router settings disabling NAT or DMZing the Downstairs Airport, and it's working (I'm assuming Downstairs Airport is setup as NAT and DHCP, not Bridge Mode), why don't you just plug Cabana or Garage into Downstairs Airport so it's setup and works the same way as Office and Sunroom? Am I missing something? [short on ports or cables?] I guess I misunderstand the problem you're trying to solve. I thought your immediate need was just a guest network, which most of your existing equipment should be capable of handling, unless you're talking about a whole lot or high bandwidth (surveillance) equipment.

If you look at the diagram, the Garage is connected to the ISP, so it's in the "Intermediate Network" and that is likely the source of problems. If you connect it directly to your LAN "Home Network" instead, the problems may go away.

mnvalue
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by mnvalue » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:40 am

This is my area of expertise. First off, you need exactly one thing acting as a router. Everything else should be just an access point. That avoids the double NAT.

Second, you should have the same SSID and password everywhere. That allows for seamless roaming and avoids the need to configure devices multiple times.

If you want something that Just Works and is consumer friendly, look at Eero. Their more expensive base unit can be wired. I haven’t looked at the Google product, but as long as it can use an Ethernet backhaul, that’s should be similar.

Otherwise, the Ubiquiti AC Pro units are nice. They aren’t as consumer friendly, but they work well. You need to run the controller software somewhere. They sell a “cloud key” that can run it. I prefer that over installing it on a computer.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by EZ James » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:54 am

I have no experience with the Extreme but this link shows how to enable the guest network on that unit:

https://www.thegeekpub.com/5191/use-air ... idge-mode/

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:34 am

EZ James wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:54 am
I have no experience with the Extreme but this link shows how to enable the guest network on that unit:
https://www.thegeekpub.com/5191/use-air ... idge-mode/
Thank you for the link. I had seen that article, but setting VLAN that way is a bridge too far for me (ha! see what I did there?)
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:16 am

I got some Ethernet extension cables yesterday (the cables are in conduit, a bit short, and not easy to replace). I will try some configurations later.

My current configuration has NAT coming from the Fios router and every Airport set to Bridge mode, with Sunroom and Office wired to the back of Downstairs. I will try turning NAT off on the Fios router, turning it on Downstairs, and then using a switch to distribute to the other Airports from Downstairs. I will then turn on Guest Network on all of the Airports. I will use the same SSID on all of the Airports.

If it doesn’t work, I’ll look at Eeros.

Sound like a plan?
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

Sidney
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by Sidney » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:43 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:16 am
I got some Ethernet extension cables yesterday (the cables are in conduit, a bit short, and not easy to replace). I will try some configurations later.

My current configuration has NAT coming from the Fios router and every Airport set to Bridge mode, with Sunroom and Office wired to the back of Downstairs. I will try turning NAT off on the Fios router, turning it on Downstairs, and then using a switch to distribute to the other Airports from Downstairs. I will then turn on Guest Network on all of the Airports. I will use the same SSID on all of the Airports.

If it doesn’t work, I’ll look at Eeros.

Sound like a plan?
Have you looked at Orbi (Netgear)? I don't have an immediate need for this but it ticked off a lot of requirements for me for a new network should I start to re-do mine. Has Ethernet backhaul and satellites have multiple Ethernet ports which would come in handy for me.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:36 am

Sidney wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:43 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:16 am
I got some Ethernet extension cables yesterday (the cables are in conduit, a bit short, and not easy to replace). I will try some configurations later.
My current configuration has NAT coming from the Fios router and every Airport set to Bridge mode, with Sunroom and Office wired to the back of Downstairs. I will try turning NAT off on the Fios router, turning it on Downstairs, and then using a switch to distribute to the other Airports from Downstairs. I will then turn on Guest Network on all of the Airports. I will use the same SSID on all of the Airports.
If it doesn’t work, I’ll look at Eeros.
Sound like a plan?
Have you looked at Orbi (Netgear)? I don't have an immediate need for this but it ticked off a lot of requirements for me for a new network should I start to re-do mine. Has Ethernet backhaul and satellites have multiple Ethernet ports which would come in handy for me.
They are nice looking, and I'd consider them if my attempts to use my Airports doesn't work out. Nice looking shouldn't be a consideration, but SAF (spousal acceptance factor) is a fact of life for me :D
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:42 am

This morning, I was debating how much to invest in a guest network, since my WiFi really does work for most normal uses. We are doing a renovation, and as I catalog how much we are adding to IoT (Internet of Things), it's pretty shocking:

1. Irrigation
2. Solar production
3. Solar storage
4. Geothermal thermostats and control
5. Air sourced heat pump over the garage
6. Hue lights
7. Lutron Caseta
8. various other controls (e.g., media room)

and I realized that the chances that one of those being hacked goes up as the list keeps growing. My desktop PC, which stores my financial information, is well protected and I don't serve my data to other devices, but still ...
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by jebmke » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:35 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:42 am
and I realized that the chances that one of those being hacked goes up as the list keeps growing. My desktop PC, which stores my financial information, is well protected and I don't serve my data to other devices, but still ...
We have nothing like the devices you have. Limited to one ROKU and a Roomba. I would never consider having these devices on my main network with access to my computer or NAS.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:36 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:16 am
I got some Ethernet extension cables yesterday (the cables are in conduit, a bit short, and not easy to replace). I will try some configurations later.

My current configuration has NAT coming from the Fios router and every Airport set to Bridge mode, with Sunroom and Office wired to the back of Downstairs. I will try turning NAT off on the Fios router, turning it on Downstairs, and then using a switch to distribute to the other Airports from Downstairs. I will then turn on Guest Network on all of the Airports. I will use the same SSID on all of the Airports.

If it doesn’t work, I’ll look at Eeros.

Sound like a plan?
That's sounds like it should work, and would have been what I would have tried first, but I understand how existing cabling and missing links could have led you to other configurations.

But I'm left wondering how Downstairs Guest Network would have worked in Bridge Mode, but not Garage and Cabana. That is, why two identically set up Airports would be viewed differently by FIOS router. And further why Sunroom and Office Guest Network also worked well thru an additional Airport routing. I suspect configurations may have been slightly different, maybe DMZ or DHCP.

If you're setting up manually, pay attention to little details that might be causing trouble. Or are you going to factory reset the routers and let Airport do it's thing? (Came across a discussion where order of setup seemed to matter. Can't find it again now, but suggested getting the main DHCP/NAT working with Guest Network, then letting the additional Airports (factory reset) automatically setup. This discussion is not it, but has several folks discussing Guest Network working setup https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5988310?page=2 )

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am

But I'm left wondering how Downstairs Guest Network would have worked in Bridge Mode, but not Garage and Cabana.
I have lost track of the iterations, but guest never worked anywhere. It was created, and could be attached to, but it never had internet access.
Garage and cabana worked, but only with separate SSIDs.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:25 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am
But I'm left wondering how Downstairs Guest Network would have worked in Bridge Mode, but not Garage and Cabana.
I have lost track of the iterations, but guest never worked anywhere. It was created, and could be attached to, but it never had internet access.
Garage and cabana worked, but only with separate SSIDs.
I'm confused!
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=279372&start=50#p4510347

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:39 am

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:25 am
I'm confused!
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=279372&start=50#p4510347
Now we are both confused. :D

Guest never worked.

Downstairs, cabana, and garage worked with separate SSIDs. Downstairs had 3 working WAPs on one SSID.

When I said handoffs worked well, I meant within range of the 3 Downstairs WAPs. Performance (speed) was great.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by mouth » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:39 am
onourway wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:26 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:47 am
I probably have configured it incorrectly. Any ideas?
I'm not clear - do all of these have the same SSID and password? If so, roaming should happen automatically.
For the moment, let’s forget cabana and garage.
The three Airports in the house have same SSID and password. Roaming is fine.
When I try to make Downstairs the master (rather than bridge mode), Internet is not available. Fios gigabit seems to want its router to control. There is not a separate modem, just Ethernet from the Fios router.
FYI, your verizon FiOS router shouldn't have to be the router. I have been operating with my own router for over a decade through two iterations of FiOS boxes. CAVEAT: I don't have gigabit so maybe that's special?

You can place your FiOS router into bridge only mode and then allow a single APE handle all routing duties. This is the one link to rule them all when dealing with FiOS http://www.dslreports.com/faq/16077
Last edited by mouth on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:21 am

mouth wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 am
You can place your FiOS router into bridge only mode...
Can you, OP? That's the Million Dollar question.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:21 am
mouth wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 am
You can place your FiOS router into bridge only mode...
Can you, OP? That's the Million Dollar question.
I took a quick peek today, and I can disable it as a DHCP Server.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by mouth » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:39 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:21 am
mouth wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 am
You can place your FiOS router into bridge only mode...
Can you, OP? That's the Million Dollar question.
I took a quick peek today, and I can disable it as a DHCP Server.
Do take a look at that link I posted. Not only do you want to disable DHCP but you want to explicitly set the router to operate in bridge and not router mode.

Once you know you've got that, your options open up and I strongly recommend UniFi. As others have said it takes a little more work to set up but 1) that gives you the features you need and 2) it is very well supported with tons of videos to help you through it.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by stxman » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:43 am

Haven't tried it myself but recently saw article about how one person got much improved speeds in a very challenging house. Bit pricey to setup though..

https://www.zdnet.com/article/why-i-rep ... might-too/

inbox788
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:46 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am
inbox788 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:21 am
mouth wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 am
You can place your FiOS router into bridge only mode...
Can you, OP? That's the Million Dollar question.
I took a quick peek today, and I can disable it as a DHCP Server.
That's very good news. That means there's hope. Some bad ISPs lock down the settings on their devices so you can't make changes. If you can give Downstairs Airport control of NAT and DHCP, you can better control what happens on your side of the network.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:26 pm

mouth wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:39 am
Do take a look at that link I posted. Not only do you want to disable DHCP but you want to explicitly set the router to operate in bridge and not router mode.
I guess I want config #7. I will look at the Fios router this afternoon.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by XtremeSki2001 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:44 pm

queso wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:56 pm
crystalbank wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:57 am
jebmke wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:43 am
crystalbank wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:23 am
I'd setup a Ubiquiti UniFi Wireless AP. They're a little bit more complicated to setup than regular consumer routers and they don't have a router built-in, just a really strong Wireless AP. They're designed for enterprise use, so they work incredibly well in multiple units. Since they don't have routers you don't have to worry about bridging etc and other network configuration setups. Once setup you don't have to ever touch them again and they have incredible range. I setup one in my parents house and I get strong Tx Rate even 100ft away and a couple of floors with many obstacles.
When you say "strong" are you referring to the wifi signal strength or just that they are very good units. I

I have an old router in WAP mode at the end of a decent powerline connection that I'd like to replace with a unit that has stronger signal. I can get coverage in most of the area but there are some places where it fades.
I meant to say strong signal. If signal strength is your top priority I'd even skip dual band model and stick with a 2.4Ghz one with a much beefier antenna like this one, Unifi Long Range AP.
https://store.ui.com/products/unifi-ap-1
+1 for Ubiquiti. I have no experience with their non-mesh systems, but I have an Amplifi system and 2 AirFiber 5s and have been really impressed with the quality of all their devices.
+2. I have their cloud key, gateway, 24 port PoE switch, and 3 PRO access points. Works great ... signal and speed overall is great (compared to legacy equipment I had). It also provides a lot of options if you're into tinkering, but works almost out of the box, too.
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:21 pm

From what I've gathered, I can:
Give up the FIOS DHCP lease
Quickly turn off the FIOS router
Take the WAN from the ONT, disconnect it from the FIOS router, and plug it into my Airport
Take an Ethernet cable from the LAN output of the Airport and plug it into the FIOS router
Disable DHCP distribution on the FIOS router
Enable DHCP on the Airport
IF everything works, I will have a WiFi network, TV guide and DVR control, and ONE WAP (the router one) which provides a guest network. A minimal square footage guest network is as useful as _____ on a bull.

I was a good software developer 20 years ago. Even then, I didn't get involved in networks or hardware, and I feel that I'm outside my comfort zone with this.

I looked at Ubiquiti, and while I can (barely) swallow the high cost of the cloud key, gateway, PoE switch, and 5 PRO access points, to paraphrase someone, "it's one hell of a way to make egg salad." And, I don't want the things on my walls or ceilings.

So, I'm back to eero and similar. Maybe it's time that I retired my Airport Extremes. The kids would probably appreciate them in place of whatever they're running in their apartments/dorm rooms.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by bryanm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:25 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:21 pm
From what I've gathered, I can:
Give up the FIOS DHCP lease
Quickly turn off the FIOS router
Take the WAN from the ONT, disconnect it from the FIOS router, and plug it into my Airport
Take an Ethernet cable from the LAN output of the Airport and plug it into the FIOS router
Disable DHCP distribution on the FIOS router
Enable DHCP on the Airport
IF everything works, I will have a WiFi network, TV guide and DVR control, and ONE WAP (the router one) which provides a guest network. A minimal square footage guest network is as useful as _____ on a bull.

I was a good software developer 20 years ago. Even then, I didn't get involved in networks or hardware, and I feel that I'm outside my comfort zone with this.

I looked at Ubiquiti, and while I can (barely) swallow the high cost of the cloud key, gateway, PoE switch, and 5 PRO access points, to paraphrase someone, "it's one hell of a way to make egg salad." And, I don't want the things on my walls or ceilings.

So, I'm back to eero and similar. Maybe it's time that I retired my Airport Extremes. The kids would probably appreciate them in place of whatever they're running in their apartments/dorm rooms.
I believe that's the long and short of it. Sorry there isn't an easier solution.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:45 pm

bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:25 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: So, I'm back to eero and similar. Maybe it's time that I retired my Airport Extremes. The kids would probably appreciate them in place of whatever they're running in their apartments/dorm rooms.
I believe that's the long and short of it. Sorry there isn't an easier solution.
The Orbi is looking pretty good; affordable, plays well with FIOS (although Verizon would rather you purchase directly from them), can have up to 3 SSID, etc.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by jebmke » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:50 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:45 pm
The Orbi is looking pretty good; affordable, plays well with FIOS (although Verizon would rather you purchase directly from them), can have up to 3 SSID, etc.
They should really design those with a hollow center to put silk flowers in. You'd never know what it was.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by lightheir » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:55 pm

Gonna say it.


GET THE MESH!!

Seriously, do it. The moment I got one it instantly removed ALL my network issues and questions and problems it just works, and really well.onitoring it is a cinch as well - wayyy easier than any router I have used. And better range then even my $150 range extender.which now is useless compared to the mesh.

The mesh purchase was one of the best purchases I have made for a home upgrade, absolutely

I tried many things before this.for range and reliability. Nothing is better or easier.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:57 pm

jebmke wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:50 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:45 pm
The Orbi is looking pretty good; affordable, plays well with FIOS (although Verizon would rather you purchase directly from them), can have up to 3 SSID, etc.
They should really design those with a hollow center to put silk flowers in. You'd never know what it was.
Now THAT would increase the SAF (spousal acceptance factor) :D
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:58 pm

lightheir wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:55 pm
Gonna say it.
GET THE MESH!!
Yeah, I think that's the option I'm coming to.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by bryanm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:45 pm
The Orbi is looking pretty good; affordable, plays well with FIOS (although Verizon would rather you purchase directly from them), can have up to 3 SSID, etc.
I haven't used Orbi, but it seems like it will do the trick. I would make sure that when they say 3 SSID's, they mean isolated networks. Some gear can broadcast 3 names, each of which connect to the same network. Looks like Orbi provides an isolated guest network, so that will probably work.

(Note that if Orbi is set up like most consumer grade gear, devices on a guest network can't talk to one another directly. They each get internet, and that's it. For most WiFi IoT gear, including I believe Nest stuff, that should be just fine.)

If you're entertaining out-of-the box solutions, here's another idea I thought of: You could set up a parallel network to the Airports for IoT devices. Literally duplicate a physical network. Completely inefficient, but if the Apple stuff works and you're buying new gear anyway...

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:01 pm

Anybody have a bad thing to say about the Orbi (router and 4 satellites, connected with Ethernet through a Gigabit switch)? Going once, going twice...

Any compelling reason I'd want some other mesh solution?
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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:04 pm

bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm
If you're entertaining out-of-the box solutions, here's another idea I thought of: You could set up a parallel network to the Airports for IoT devices. Literally duplicate a physical network. Completely inefficient, but if the Apple stuff works and you're buying new gear anyway...
I will think on it. I do hate to let good equipment wither, but I'll see if my kids would like the existing devices. I would need two additional switches (cabana and garage) to split for Orbi and Airport, but those are cheap, and I probably have some laying around the house.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by bryanm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:07 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:04 pm
bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm
If you're entertaining out-of-the box solutions, here's another idea I thought of: You could set up a parallel network to the Airports for IoT devices. Literally duplicate a physical network. Completely inefficient, but if the Apple stuff works and you're buying new gear anyway...
I will think on it. I do hate to let good equipment wither, but I'll see if my kids would like the existing devices. I would need two additional switches (cabana and garage) to split for Orbi and Airport, but those are cheap, and I probably have some laying around the house.
If Orbi works in your situation, I would go for that alone. The duplicate network is kind of a funny idea--it's the poor-man's VLAN--but it's liable to cause problems. You'd be dealing with double NAT, potential signal interference, etc.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:11 pm

bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm
You could set up a parallel network to the Airports for IoT devices. Literally duplicate a physical network. Completely inefficient, but if the Apple stuff works and you're buying new gear anyway...
I don't get the complication. That's what the Guest Network is, without all the extra hardware. You just need to configure it correctly and turn it ON. The Airport Extreme was ahead of it's time, but now that there are mature standards, it doesn't play nice, but if you limit it to only Apple Airport network directly connected to ISP, everything should work smoothly.

I had not considered other devices (voice and TV boxes?) on the FIOS network, or the kludges they've gone through to get everything to the home.

https://forums.verizon.com/t5/Fios-Inte ... d-p/851632

Now that we know NAT/DHCP can be accessed on the modem, I'm convinced there is a configuration that will achieve this dual WiFi network with handoffs between Airport Extreme APs. Looks like this has been an exercise in doing things more than one way at multiple junctions, and here we are again trying to figure out which router to put in which order. My natural inclination would have been to leave the FIOS router alone and disable conflicting functions (double NAT) with Apple routing, but that might turn off TV functions, which is why there is a writeup for doing thing backwards (IMO), but a FAQ that says otherwise.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by bryanm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:11 pm
bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm
You could set up a parallel network to the Airports for IoT devices. Literally duplicate a physical network. Completely inefficient, but if the Apple stuff works and you're buying new gear anyway...
I don't get the complication. That's what the Guest Network is, without all the extra hardware. You just need to configure it correctly and turn it ON. The Airport Extreme was ahead of it's time, but now that there are mature standards, it doesn't play nice, but if you limit it to only Apple Airport network directly connected to ISP, everything should work smoothly.
The complication is in the way Guest Networks are implemented. They do not set up a parallel network. Rather, each AP isolates traffic of each guest device, allowing it to access external (WAN-side) addresses but not internal ones. In Apple products (so far as I can tell) this means only the router Airport can do a guest network, because only it can tell what's WAN or not. Bridge-mode Airports will not have a guest network. Bottom line is that even if a single Airport becomes router, the guest network is limited to the airspace serviced by that WAP.

Eero (or other mesh tech) solves this partially, by sharing knowledge of the WAN with other devices. Each AP does WAN-only addressing for all guest devices. Again, it's not a parallel network, because guests can't talk to one another. Each can access the WAN--nothing more. In theory, Apple could do this with Airports in bridge mode to another Airport. So far as I can tell, they have not.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by jebmke » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:05 pm

bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 pm
The complication is in the way Guest Networks are implemented. They do not set up a parallel network. Rather, each AP isolates traffic of each guest device, allowing it to access external (WAN-side) addresses but not internal ones. In Apple products (so far as I can tell) this means only the router Airport can do a guest network, because only it can tell what's WAN or not. Bridge-mode Airports will not have a guest network. Bottom line is that even if a single Airport becomes router, the guest network is limited to the airspace serviced by that WAP.

Eero (or other mesh tech) solves this partially, by sharing knowledge of the WAN with other devices. Each AP does WAN-only addressing for all guest devices. Again, it's not a parallel network, because guests can't talk to one another. Each can access the WAN--nothing more. In theory, Apple could do this with Airports in bridge mode to another Airport. So far as I can tell, they have not.
If I understand your comment, that means that in order to isolate devices off a main network AND allow them to talk to each other (but not the main network), one would need to implement VLAN?
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by bryanm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:22 pm

jebmke wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:05 pm
If I understand your comment, that means that in order to isolate devices off a main network AND allow them to talk to each other (but not the main network), one would need to implement VLAN?
Correct. At least to my understanding.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by inbox788 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:37 am

bryanm wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:48 pm
In theory, Apple could do this with Airports in bridge mode to another Airport. So far as I can tell, they have not.
This discussion implies they have.

Found the writeup: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7009953

The only way to tell if it works is to try it.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:16 am

I ordered an Orbi today, one router two satellites (RBK 53), AC3000. I will see how it goes.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Which WAP to replace Airport Extreme - please no mesh recommendations

Post by mouth » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:04 am

Hopefully those solve your problem.

Something to keep in mind of course is you know the Unifi's don't HAVE to be hung anywhere specific any more than any other wifi AP. They ALL suffer from poor placement the same and they all benefit from ideal placement the same. As for pure aesthetics and SAF, I'm lead to believe places like Pinterist are replete with ideas on how to hide ugly thinks.

Still, you've choosen and path and I hope it works! Best of luck.


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