Please help, foreign tax credit

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Topic Author
island
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by island » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Hi All

Finishing off our 2018 Fed taxes using Turbo Tax online as usual.
Paid total of $915 in foreign tax per our 1099-Div forms, but the foreign tax credit recieved on Line 48 is only $158.

Can anyone explain why so low or share some info on how I can figure that out?

Last couple of years it was $648 and $549, prior to those years always less than $300, but we always received full credit, dollar for dollar.

Our salary income is roughly the same as last year, probably more investment income, but foreign must smaller % than US as usual.
Still maxed our 401Ks and backdoor Roths.
All our taxable investments are mutual funds and CDs, nothing exotic, and didn't sell anything.

Only significant difference is the change in tax laws, no AMT this year, taking standard deductions rather than itemizing so using the basic 1040, and that it's shockingly easier to complete taxes with Turbo Tax. Maybe too easy, because I've missed something?

I imagine Turbo Tax completed Form 1161 to calculate the Foreign Tax Credit, but I can't figure out how to see the forms while doing my taxes!

Can anyone please enlighten me on why our FTC is so limited and how to see the tax forms in the online version of Turbo Tax?
I'm hoping I goofed somewhere.

Thank you!

jebmke
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by jebmke » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:33 pm

Without seeing the forms you have almost no hope of figuring this out.

Keep in mind a couple of things. The FTC is a non-refundable credit. Also, it is limited to the amount of US tax you pay (think of it as pro-rata although it is a bit more complicated) on your foreign sourced income.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

Topic Author
island
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by island » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm

Thanks for the reply.
We've paid high five figures in fed taxes, same as other years, so I don't think a pro rata thing is the issue.
Guess we better figure out how to see the forms quick!
Thanks again.

jebmke
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by jebmke » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:55 pm

Yes; I would figure out how to see the forms. You need to do this anyway in order to check and make sure that the entire return is correct.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

nalor511
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by nalor511 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:00 pm

island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm
Thanks for the reply.
We've paid high five figures in fed taxes, same as other years, so I don't think a pro rata thing is the issue.
Guess we better figure out how to see the forms quick!
Thanks again.
It's not about the Fed tax you pay, it's about what the Fed thinks you *would* have paid on your foreign source income if it had been US income. Since you mention the percentage of your foreign income is lower this year, that's most likely the culprit, i.e. they don't think you would have paid more than $158 tax on that income. But, sure, could also be a form 1116 mistake. Walk through it step by step from scratch, and put the numbers where you think they go, and see if you get the same result.

Also, if you can't use all your FTC, it can be carried back 1 year, then forward up to 10 years.

Topic Author
island
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by island » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:27 pm

nalor511 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:00 pm
island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm
Thanks for the reply.
We've paid high five figures in fed taxes, same as other years, so I don't think a pro rata thing is the issue.
Guess we better figure out how to see the forms quick!
Thanks again.
It's not about the Fed tax you pay, it's about what the Fed thinks you *would* have paid on your foreign source income if it had been US income. Since you mention the percentage of your foreign income is lower this year, that's most likely the culprit, i.e. they don't think you would have paid more than $158 tax on that income. But, sure, could also be a form 1116 mistake. Walk through it step by step from scratch, and put the numbers where you think they go, and see if you get the same result.

Also, if you can't use all your FTC, it can be carried back 1 year, then forward up to 10 years.
Sorry for the confusion, meant the foreign income is much lower than US income as usual, not that it's less than previous years.
But point taken that it's not about income tax paid.
Google search tells me form view is not offered in the online version of Turbo Tax.
That's whack, and unfortunate since I don't have a computer with a disc drive.
Maybe I can download some other version.
Thanks again for your reply.

kaneohe
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by kaneohe » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:30 pm

island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm
................................................................
Only significant difference is the change in tax laws, no AMT this year, taking standard deductions rather than itemizing so using the basic 1040, .......................................................
Perhaps having no AMT is a factor since that would lower your average tax rate, leading to a lower expected tax on that foreign income.
You get credit for the lower of the two....foreign or US tax .....on that foreign income. The change in tax laws also lowered the rates.

Perhaps you could put your 2018 numbers into 2017 software and see if the FTC increases.

pdavi21
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by pdavi21 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:30 pm

Was your foreign passive income over 20k? If so, you can only deduct FTC against the pertinent Dividend Taxes.

EDIT: I can't read IRS fluently, but maybe there is something in here:
"The 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA), legislation passed in December 2017, made major changes to the way the U.S. taxes foreign activities. Significant new provisions include a dividends-received deduction for dividends from foreign subsidiaries and the addition of Global Intangible Low-Taxed Income rules, which subject to current U.S. taxation certain foreign earnings that would have been deferred under previous law.

The TCJA also modified the foreign tax credit rules, which allow U.S. taxpayers to offset their taxes by the amount of foreign income taxes paid or accrued, in several important ways to reflect the new international tax rules. These changes include repeal of rules for computing deemed-paid foreign tax credits on dividends on the basis of foreign subsidiaries’ cumulative pools of earnings and foreign taxes, and the addition of two separate foreign tax credit limitation categories for foreign branch income and amounts includible under the new Global Intangible Low-Taxed Income provisions. The TCJA also modified how taxable income is calculated for the foreign tax credit limitation by disregarding certain expenses related to income eligible for the dividends-received deduction and repealing the use of the fair market value method for allocating interest expense. The new foreign tax credit rules apply to 2018 and future years."
Last edited by pdavi21 on Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We spend a great deal of time studying history, which, let's face it, is mostly the history of stupidity." -Stephen Hawking

ramsfan
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by ramsfan » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:45 pm

I was just getting ready to make the same post. My Foreign tax paid was a little over $1,000 in 2018 (VG Mutual Funds, and Vanguard ETF). Normally I get the full amount as the Foreign Tax Credit. This year, I am only getting $224.

I am using Turbo Tax Online, as I have done for many years. I will dig deeper on the forms, but hoping someone knows what is happening.

Thanks!

nalor511
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by nalor511 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:50 pm

Definitely use the download version, for form view alone it's worth the $18 price of HR block on sale. Search Slickdeals. If you just want to compare fed, and don't need state, you can probably find $11
Last edited by nalor511 on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jebmke
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by jebmke » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:52 pm

nalor511 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:50 pm
Definitely use the download certain, for form view alone it's worth the $18 price of HR block on sale. Search Slickdeals. If you just want to compare fed, and don't need state, you can probably find $11
I would never use a product that didn't allow me to see the entire return.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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yukonjack
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Location: Rocky Mountain West

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by yukonjack » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm

island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm
Hi All

Finishing off our 2018 Fed taxes using Turbo Tax online as usual.
Paid total of $915 in foreign tax per our 1099-Div forms, but the foreign tax credit recieved on Line 48 is only $158.

Can anyone explain why so low or share some info on how I can figure that out?

Last couple of years it was $648 and $549, prior to those years always less than $300, but we always received full credit, dollar for dollar.

Our salary income is roughly the same as last year, probably more investment income, but foreign must smaller % than US as usual.
Still maxed our 401Ks and backdoor Roths.
All our taxable investments are mutual funds and CDs, nothing exotic, and didn't sell anything.

Only significant difference is the change in tax laws, no AMT this year, taking standard deductions rather than itemizing so using the basic 1040, and that it's shockingly easier to complete taxes with Turbo Tax. Maybe too easy, because I've missed something?

I imagine Turbo Tax completed Form 1161 to calculate the Foreign Tax Credit, but I can't figure out how to see the forms while doing my taxes!

Can anyone please enlighten me on why our FTC is so limited and how to see the tax forms in the online version of Turbo Tax?
I'm hoping I goofed somewhere.

Thank you!
This is pretty much my situation. I had an FTC of $911 and HRB software only allowed a credit of $278. This was my first year to take the standard deduction which I believe created the reduced credit. In the HRB software for form 1116 the line 3 calculation used $24000 (standard deduction). Last year it used $3000 (real estate taxes). Changing these two numbers caused the calculation for my net foreign source income (line 17) to drastically decrease to $1244 thus reducing my FTC.

ramsfan
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:27 am

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by ramsfan » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:54 pm

yukonjack wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm
island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm
Hi All

Finishing off our 2018 Fed taxes using Turbo Tax online as usual.
Paid total of $915 in foreign tax per our 1099-Div forms, but the foreign tax credit recieved on Line 48 is only $158.

Can anyone explain why so low or share some info on how I can figure that out?

Last couple of years it was $648 and $549, prior to those years always less than $300, but we always received full credit, dollar for dollar.

Our salary income is roughly the same as last year, probably more investment income, but foreign must smaller % than US as usual.
Still maxed our 401Ks and backdoor Roths.
All our taxable investments are mutual funds and CDs, nothing exotic, and didn't sell anything.

Only significant difference is the change in tax laws, no AMT this year, taking standard deductions rather than itemizing so using the basic 1040, and that it's shockingly easier to complete taxes with Turbo Tax. Maybe too easy, because I've missed something?

I imagine Turbo Tax completed Form 1161 to calculate the Foreign Tax Credit, but I can't figure out how to see the forms while doing my taxes!

Can anyone please enlighten me on why our FTC is so limited and how to see the tax forms in the online version of Turbo Tax?
I'm hoping I goofed somewhere.

Thank you!
This is pretty much my situation. I had an FTC of $911 and HRB software only allowed a credit of $278. This was my first year to take the standard deduction which I believe created the reduced credit. In the HRB software for form 1116 the line 3 calculation used $24000 (standard deduction). Last year it used $3000 (real estate taxes). Changing these two numbers caused the calculation for my net foreign source income (line 17) to drastically decrease to $1244 thus reducing my FTC.
Thanks - this explains what is happening to me as well! I will verify on the forms, but this makes sense.

Topic Author
island
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by island » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:54 pm

ramsfan wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:54 pm
yukonjack wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm
island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm
Hi All

Finishing off our 2018 Fed taxes using Turbo Tax online as usual.
Paid total of $915 in foreign tax per our 1099-Div forms, but the foreign tax credit recieved on Line 48 is only $158.

Can anyone explain why so low or share some info on how I can figure that out?

Last couple of years it was $648 and $549, prior to those years always less than $300, but we always received full credit, dollar for dollar.

Our salary income is roughly the same as last year, probably more investment income, but foreign must smaller % than US as usual.
Still maxed our 401Ks and backdoor Roths.
All our taxable investments are mutual funds and CDs, nothing exotic, and didn't sell anything.

Only significant difference is the change in tax laws, no AMT this year, taking standard deductions rather than itemizing so using the basic 1040, and that it's shockingly easier to complete taxes with Turbo Tax. Maybe too easy, because I've missed something?

I imagine Turbo Tax completed Form 1161 to calculate the Foreign Tax Credit, but I can't figure out how to see the forms while doing my taxes!

Can anyone please enlighten me on why our FTC is so limited and how to see the tax forms in the online version of Turbo Tax?
I'm hoping I goofed somewhere.

Thank you!
This is pretty much my situation. I had an FTC of $911 and HRB software only allowed a credit of $278. This was my first year to take the standard deduction which I believe created the reduced credit. In the HRB software for form 1116 the line 3 calculation used $24000 (standard deduction). Last year it used $3000 (real estate taxes). Changing these two numbers caused the calculation for my net foreign source income (line 17) to drastically decrease to $1244 thus reducing my FTC.
Thanks - this explains what is happening to me as well! I will verify on the forms, but this makes sense.
Thank you both. Ramsfan please post back what results you get when you check the forms.

I've used the TT online version for a few years, since had this computer without a disc tray, but this is the first I've ever questioned anything, even when more complicated. Of course can see all the forms on TT after submitted, but that doesn't help now!

nalor511
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by nalor511 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:01 pm

You don't need a CD drive, you can download version.

nalor511
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by nalor511 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:02 pm

jebmke wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:52 pm
nalor511 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:50 pm
Definitely use the download certain, for form view alone it's worth the $18 price of HR block on sale. Search Slickdeals. If you just want to compare fed, and don't need state, you can probably find $11
I would never use a product that didn't allow me to see the entire return.
Me either

Topic Author
island
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by island » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:46 pm

nalor511 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:01 pm
You don't need a CD drive, you can download version.
That's what I discovered since posting this thread. May switch before submitting if keeps everything I entered. Definitely next year though. Thanks everyone.

Topic Author
island
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by island » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:21 am

Ok so when I finished my taxes on TT online after paying, I could view all the forms including 1116 before submitting.
As mentioned in my original post, my credit was only a fraction of what I paid in foreign tax and what I expected to see was a line showing the carry over amount for future use, but I don’t.
Is the carry over $ amount just something I’m supposed to kept my own record of for future use?

Thanks!

Chip
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:57 am

Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by Chip » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:42 am

island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm
Thanks for the reply.
We've paid high five figures in fed taxes, same as other years, so I don't think a pro rata thing is the issue.
Guess we better figure out how to see the forms quick!
Thanks again.
High five figures in federal taxes paid implies that you are in the 32% bracket (> 315k of taxable income). When you are in that bracket or above, OR have more than 20k in foreign source qualified dividends, there is a required adjustment that is made on a F1116 worksheet to foreign source income reported on Line 1a of F1116. This is likely affecting you. Here is the relevant bit from the F1116 instructions:

To adjust your foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions, multiply your foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions in each separate category by 0.4054 if the foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions are taxed at a rate of 15%, and by 0.5405 if they are taxed at a 20% rate. Include the results on line 1a of the applicable Form 1116.

You adjust your foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions taxed at the 0% rate by not including them on line 1a.


TurboTax (desktop version) makes these adjustments on the F1116 Comp Worksheet, Part 1, Line 1g. The reduced foreign income from the adjustment flows back to F1116, Part 1, Line 1a, and affects all subsequent calculations on F1116.

In short, your F1116 may be correct. If you want to post the numbers we can probably figure it out.

The amount of the FTC that you were unable to use does carry forward for up to 10 years. TT desktop keeps track of it. Not sure about the online version.

Chip
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by Chip » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:48 am

yukonjack wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:26 pm
This is pretty much my situation. I had an FTC of $911 and HRB software only allowed a credit of $278. This was my first year to take the standard deduction which I believe created the reduced credit. In the HRB software for form 1116 the line 3 calculation used $24000 (standard deduction). Last year it used $3000 (real estate taxes). Changing these two numbers caused the calculation for my net foreign source income (line 17) to drastically decrease to $1244 thus reducing my FTC.
There have been reports here in the past that HRB software did a poor job of handling F1116 with itemized deductions and required significant manual intervention. If the only itemized deduction on Line 3 of your 2017 form was real estate taxes it sounds like the F1116 is incorrect. Pretty much all of your itemized deductions should end up on Line 3, though some state income taxes should be on Line 2 instead. The one exception I'm aware of is charitable contributions, which aren't put on the form at all.

nalor511
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by nalor511 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:11 am

island wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:21 am
Ok so when I finished my taxes on TT online after paying, I could view all the forms including 1116 before submitting.
As mentioned in my original post, my credit was only a fraction of what I paid in foreign tax and what I expected to see was a line showing the carry over amount for future use, but I don’t.
Is the carry over $ amount just something I’m supposed to kept my own record of for future use?

Thanks!
Yes, the form does not have a place to show future carryover, which in my opinion it should, but nevertheless it does not. If you want, you need to keep track.

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grabiner
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by grabiner » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:19 pm

Chip wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:42 am
island wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm
Thanks for the reply.
We've paid high five figures in fed taxes, same as other years, so I don't think a pro rata thing is the issue.
Guess we better figure out how to see the forms quick!
Thanks again.
High five figures in federal taxes paid implies that you are in the 32% bracket (> 315k of taxable income). When you are in that bracket or above, OR have more than 20k in foreign source qualified dividends, there is a required adjustment that is made on a F1116 worksheet to foreign source income reported on Line 1a of F1116. This is likely affecting you. Here is the relevant bit from the F1116 instructions:

To adjust your foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions, multiply your foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions in each separate category by 0.4054 if the foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions are taxed at a rate of 15%, and by 0.5405 if they are taxed at a 20% rate. Include the results on line 1a of the applicable Form 1116.

You adjust your foreign source qualified dividends or capital gain distributions taxed at the 0% rate by not including them on line 1a.


TurboTax (desktop version) makes these adjustments on the F1116 Comp Worksheet, Part 1, Line 1g. The reduced foreign income from the adjustment flows back to F1116, Part 1, Line 1a, and affects all subsequent calculations on F1116.

In short, your F1116 may be correct. If you want to post the numbers we can probably figure it out.
Even given these numbers, the ratios reported by several people on this thread look wrong. If you are near the bottom of the 32% tax bracket, your tax is about 20% of your taxable income. If you have foreign investments, the tax withheld on those is about 8% of the income, and if that income is entirely qualified dividends, it is 20% of the adjusted amount. (And few foreign funds have all their dividends qualified; if only 2/3 of the dividends are qualified, the limit would be 12% of the adjusted foreign income.) Thus your foreign tax credit might be slightly less than the tax paid, but it shouldn't be too much less.

I would suggest that all posters on this thread look at the Form 1116 generated by their tax software.

The amount on Line 7 (net foreign taxable income) should be close to the amount on line 1a (gross foreign income)

The amount on line 1a should be equal to the amount of foreign income on the Form 1099 unless you needed to adjust for qualified dividends.

If your foreign income is from mutual funds, the amount on line 8 (foreign tax) should be about 8% of the amount on line 1a, although it varies somewhat by fund.

My amount on line 1a came from my Forms 1099; I am not in the 32% bracket and have less than $20,000 of foreign income, so I do not need to adjust. My amount on Line 7 is 92% of the amount on line 1a. And my amount on Line 8 is 9% of the amount on Line 1a. The net effect is that my maximum credit on Line 21 is almost twice my foreign tax paid on Line 22.
Wiki David Grabiner

HenrySouthernCal
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by HenrySouthernCal » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:34 am

I just looked at my form 1116 completed by TurboTax and I got full foreign tax credit back.

It seems you can only claim the foreign tax credit in a rate up to the rate your are paying U.S. tax. Use the original post an example, the foreign tax rate is 158/915 = 17.3%
The 1040 tax rate used in form 1116 is Tax/Taxable income. The Tax here is 1040 line 11a which is the tax before any credit or other tax tax due. The taxable income here is 1040 line 10 which is AGI - itemized or standard deduction -QBI deduction

If the foreign tax rate is lower than your 1040 tax rate, you get full credit back; otherwise you can only claim the foreign tax to the rate equal your 1040 tax rate.

The reason several people on the thread didn't get full foreign credit is their U.S. tax rates are too low. So for seniors with low tax bracket and living on fixed income or dividend payment, think twice before investing in foreign dividend stocks or funds.

kaneohe
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by kaneohe » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:41 am

HenrySouthernCal wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:34 am
.........................................................

The reason several people on the thread didn't get full foreign credit is their U.S. tax rates are too low. So for seniors with low tax bracket and living on fixed income or dividend payment, think twice before investing in foreign dividend stocks or funds.
.......and this could change once RMDs/SS start.........

Chip
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Re: Please help, foreign tax credit

Post by Chip » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:08 pm

kaneohe wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:41 am
HenrySouthernCal wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:34 am
The reason several people on the thread didn't get full foreign credit is their U.S. tax rates are too low. So for seniors with low tax bracket and living on fixed income or dividend payment, think twice before investing in foreign dividend stocks or funds.
.......and this could change once RMDs/SS start.........
Right. My current plans have our FTC severely limited for the next few years, but I expect the carryover to be used up fairly quickly once RMDs & SS begin.

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