Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

[marcopolo]

I guess people here mostly really hate their jobs. The pro work position is an ironic position for me to take because I have never been motivated by career.

Count me amongst those who didn't hate their jobs. I absolutely WAS motivated...jazzed... by career. My 35 years as a health care leader were extremely challenging and satisfying. I planned out a career path and was able to end my career as a successful CEO as measured by my Board. Extremely rewarding. Maslow's highest level on steroids.

But I now I have shifted gears for my last phase of life. This phase approach has always made sense to me. Life can have different phases. The first 1/3rd of my actuarily projected (not not guaranteed) life was childhood/education/training. The second third was career plus reaching FI (as defined by SS when we start it at probably 65 or so plus DIAs starting at age 65 plus zero debt/no mortgage plus a completely adequate portfolio using the variable withdrawal method but not 1473.05%-or-whatever-level portfolio). The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.

Very well said.

There tends to be a lot of black and white thinking about work/retiring to make it seem like there are only two choices: either you love your job and will work till you die, or you hate your job and will retire as soon as financially feasible.

At least for me, it was more like you describe, transition through different phases of life.

Childhood, college, early career, back to grad school, raising kids, a fairly successful, and very enjoyable career. But, as life progressed, there came a time when I was just ready to move to the next stage.

Everyone transitions at their own pace.

[TheTimeLord]

...The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.

Well said and my sentiments exactly (I am in my fourth year of early retirement).

Unfortunately, neither myself or friends I have talked to have been able to figure this out for 365 days a year. We usually can get to about 5-7 months but that's about all. I have one friend who is very happily retired but the rhythm of his retirement is about 1 trip per quarter (very interesting trip usually) followed by 3 months of light fitness, errands and planning for the next trip. A good life for him but not anything he couldn't have waited 5 years to do.

[software]

...The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.

Well said and my sentiments exactly (I am in my fourth year of early retirement).

Unfortunately, neither myself or friends I have talked to have been able to figure this out for 365 days a year. We usually can get to about 5-7 months but that's about all. I have one friend who is very happily retired but the rhythm of his retirement is about 1 trip per quarter (very interesting trip usually) followed by 3 months of light fitness, errands and planning for the next trip. A good life for him but not anything he couldn't have waited 5 years to do.

Unfortunately there is no guarantee of 5 more years. I just found out someone I work with was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and is expected to only live a couple more weeks. Came out of nowhere and this was a fairly healthy individual.

Your friend got it right...

[TheTimeLord]

...The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.

Well said and my sentiments exactly (I am in my fourth year of early retirement).

Unfortunately, neither myself or friends I have talked to have been able to figure this out for 365 days a year. We usually can get to about 5-7 months but that's about all. I have one friend who is very happily retired but the rhythm of his retirement is about 1 trip per quarter (very interesting trip usually) followed by 3 months of light fitness, errands and planning for the next trip. A good life for him but not anything he couldn't have waited 5 years to do.

Unfortunately there is no guarantee of 5 more years. I just found out someone I work with was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and is expected to only live a couple more weeks. Came out of nowhere and this was a fairly healthy individual.

Your friend got it right...

I think he has it right for him. He definitely seems to be enjoying simplifying and slowing down his life. I did this about 6 years ago for a year and for me getting back to a busy intense job has been the right decision. I am happier than I was just sitting around the house and it has given me a greater array of possibilities when I do retire. I really don't think there is single answer that fits everyone.

[gmaynardkrebs]

Unfortunately there is no guarantee of 5 more years. I just found out someone I work with was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and is expected to only live a couple more weeks. Came out of nowhere and this was a fairly healthy individual.

Your friend got it right...

Very sorry to hear that...same thing happened to a dear friend of mine. Such things are awful...However, he was happy that he had saved enough so that his wife and kids would not suffer financially -- it was of considerable consolation to know that.

[KlangFool]

OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool

We like to think that it is all about the entire journey we have here on earth (one life, one shot), not just the portion of the journey after work that we call retirement. Or the portion of the years we call work. Or the portion of years we call before work.

CyclingDuo,

In my career/industry, I have to work 40 hours per week. Then, I have to spend another 20 to 30 hours to learn and keep up with technology. So, after working at this pace for 20 to 30 years, I would rather not spend any more of my life in this effort. And, it is a binary decision. If I want to stay in this area, I have to spend 20 to 30 hours per week to keep up. This is even assuming that I am working part-time.

KlangFool

[smitcat]

OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool

We like to think that it is all about the entire journey we have here on earth (one life, one shot), not just the portion of the journey after work that we call retirement. Or the portion of the years we call work. Or the portion of years we call before work.

CyclingDuo,

In my career/industry, I have to work 40 hours per week. Then, I have to spend another 20 to 30 hours to learn and keep up with technology. So, after working at this pace for 20 to 30 years, I would rather not spend any more of my life in this effort. And, it is a binary decision. If I want to stay in this area, I have to spend 20 to 30 hours per week to keep up. This is even assuming that I am working part-time.

KlangFool

That is a terrible situation and why we changed careers. Living for retirement alone is no way to live.

[KlangFool]

OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool

We like to think that it is all about the entire journey we have here on earth (one life, one shot), not just the portion of the journey after work that we call retirement. Or the portion of the years we call work. Or the portion of years we call before work.

CyclingDuo,

In my career/industry, I have to work 40 hours per week. Then, I have to spend another 20 to 30 hours to learn and keep up with technology. So, after working at this pace for 20 to 30 years, I would rather not spend any more of my life in this effort. And, it is a binary decision. If I want to stay in this area, I have to spend 20 to 30 hours per week to keep up. This is even assuming that I am working part-time.

KlangFool

That is a terrible situation and why we changed careers. Living for retirement alone is no way to live.

smitcat,

I liked my job. I just do not want to do the same thing anymore. Time to move on.

KlangFool

[smitcat]

OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool

We like to think that it is all about the entire journey we have here on earth (one life, one shot), not just the portion of the journey after work that we call retirement. Or the portion of the years we call work. Or the portion of years we call before work.

CyclingDuo,

In my career/industry, I have to work 40 hours per week. Then, I have to spend another 20 to 30 hours to learn and keep up with technology. So, after working at this pace for 20 to 30 years, I would rather not spend any more of my life in this effort. And, it is a binary decision. If I want to stay in this area, I have to spend 20 to 30 hours per week to keep up. This is even assuming that I am working part-time.

KlangFool

That is a terrible situation and why we changed careers. Living for retirement alone is no way to live.

smitcat,

I liked my job. I just do not want to do the same thing anymore. Time to move on.

KlangFool

People who write these lines.....
"There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.
do not like their job or their current life as is. You did not move on in the past , its a terrible situation.
Your life your choice.
KlangFool"

[KlangFool]

We like to think that it is all about the entire journey we have here on earth (one life, one shot), not just the portion of the journey after work that we call retirement. Or the portion of the years we call work. Or the portion of years we call before work.

CyclingDuo,

In my career/industry, I have to work 40 hours per week. Then, I have to spend another 20 to 30 hours to learn and keep up with technology. So, after working at this pace for 20 to 30 years, I would rather not spend any more of my life in this effort. And, it is a binary decision. If I want to stay in this area, I have to spend 20 to 30 hours per week to keep up. This is even assuming that I am working part-time.

KlangFool

That is a terrible situation and why we changed careers. Living for retirement alone is no way to live.

smitcat,

I liked my job. I just do not want to do the same thing anymore. Time to move on.

KlangFool

People who write these lines.....
"There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.
do not like their job or their current life as is. You did not move on in the past , its a terrible situation.
Your life your choice.
KlangFool"

smitcat,

Now, you get a complete complexity of this question.

KlangFool

[pennywise]

2) You seem to be on an eternal search for reasons to NOT retire. What is the point? If you don't want to retire, don't. Lots of people choose that route, there is no shame in it.

Well yes. One (dis?)advantage of following a forum is that it's easy to get to virtually know individuals who are frequent fliers.

This is a constant and frequent refrain from this particular individual; a series of what seem to be rhetorical queries designed to reinforce his conviction that for him retiring is a Bad Idea.

As others have noted this is of course a very personal decision and nobody can answer it for another, however it does get a bit monotonous reading many slight variations of the same question 'tell me why I'm wrong to never retire and I'll refute you to prove I'm right'

[vested1]

TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool

That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.

If he is like me I want 3 months of vacations every year. Not the 6 weeks my employer provides.

I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.

YMMV

I cannot believe that you ONLY want 3 months of vacations every year.

I think 3 months would be sufficient for my needs.

But wouldn't 12 months be preferable?

Like a few others, I'm confused over what you categorize as "fixed income", and if your intention is to be able to fund 15 to 30 years of retirement solely from the bond side of your AA. You attempted to clear up the confusion by stating you were only referring to fixed income needed beyond the amount received from SS and pensions (fixed income). This doesn't clear anything up unless you are contending that you will only derive income in retirement from guaranteed sources. Doing so would eventually skew your AA to 100% equities, which is antithetical to your repeated conservative posts advocating OMY, even if only for yourself.

If I had the same reservations as you I would still be working, rather than being retired for 3+ years. Part of what convinced me to finally pull the plug at age 63.5 was the increasing number of friends younger than me who died, mostly from cancer, another just yesterday at age 56. My 50th high school reunion is coming up next year, which could likely take place in a coffee shop, rather than a rented hall due to the dwindling number of alumni.

It's true that you won't have any regrets after you're dead, but your loved ones just might. I would hate for my legacy to be "He worked until the day he died", which is more common than most realize, other than for those whom remain living and regret the lost time with you, time which you spent attempting to reach 30x in fixed income.

OMY is an attractive trap, filled with the promise of what-ifs in regards to guaranteed success in retirement, providing a legacy for those left behind, while robbing you of something irreplaceable; Time.

[CyclingDuo]

We cannot ignore the largest portion of our lives - as in all those years before retirement. In other words, don't save all your living and enjoyment of life for that small percentage known as retirement when the body will most likely not be able to do what it could do in the years leading up to it.

These threads always devolve into a sort of absolutism when it comes to pre- and post-retirement life. People who argue for continuing to work seem to think that people who want to retire early aren't already doing fun things and are just saving them all up for retirement.

Speaking only for myself...I have lived a fun an active life during my working years. I've traveled a lot and done the things I want to do. But I can't travel as much as I want, and I can't do the fun things I want with enough frequency because of work. WIthout question, work is the worst part of every day/week/month/year.

If I wasn't already have fun in my free time, I wouldn't be SO eager to retire early (in order to increase the time I have for said fun).

Threads devolve because it's never a one size fits all scenario for any of us based on our careers, income, financial situation, goals, etc... . Hence, a variety of opinions pour forth based on the bias of the poster and their individual situation(s).

Klang just listed his reality upthread about 40 hours of work per week in his industry, plus an additional 20-30 hours per week he needs to put in just to keep up with the technology. The OP mentioned wanting to retire at some point in his 50's, yet has years to go (don't know his age, but assume it is years to go). I don't know your particular situation or goals either, but you mention you are currently under the constraints of what I assume is 50 weeks of work per year which reigns in the amount of time and frequency to do more of the fun things you want to do in retirement, but it obviously sounds like you are aiming to FIRE in an "eager" way. I absolutely respect all situations.

Obviously, our own personal individual situation absolutely colors my comments/opinions. Our full-time careers of the past 34 years - when you total up all the time off we get had the benefit of being the equivalent of having 11 years off to enjoy or experience what we call mini-retirements each year thanks to having summers off, holiday breaks, spring breaks, etc... .

Having 3.x months off each year obviously has its pros and cons, but it is normal within our chosen careers. I am also well aware of what it feels like having fun, traveling, socializing, etc... during the working months compared to doing it during the months of time off. We have found that living one's life during the working months has been just as fun, enjoyable, and full of opportunities over the past 3.x decades for us, but that's our experience. The pause that refreshes (summer breaks, holiday breaks, spring breaks, weekends) obviously colors our experience and my opinions. For us, retirement will simply be more of the same that we have already been enjoying during the past 34 years of our summer and holiday break mini-retirements.

Point being, we all have our own unique perspectives on any implied lure of retirement based on the decades leading up to it. From our perspective, there's been a heck of a lot of life and enjoyment to experience before arriving at that phase.

In terms of the OP's post and quest for setting aside an amount to cover expenses in retirement, that's something we certainly have been working on as well with the tools we will have available via pension, social security, risk portfolio, rental income, dividend income.

[pennywise]

I guess people here mostly really hate their jobs. The pro work position is an ironic position for me to take because I have never been motivated by career.

Count me amongst those who didn't hate their jobs. I absolutely WAS motivated...jazzed... by career

Extremely rewarding. Maslow's highest level on steroids.

But I now I have shifted gears for my last phase of life. The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.

Very well said.

I also have felt tremendously fortunate to have worked at a career that gave deep satisfaction and meaning to my life. As that phase has neared its natural end, at some points I felt very unsettled and unbalanced as I struggled to envision what should replace that in my sense of purpose and goals.

And now the ground has again become firm perhaps partly from seeing how very joyous life is for my newly retired spouse. As you point out, being bored or unsatisfied is in the end an internal constraint. No excuse or reason for either feeling because life is so full of opportunities to engage, on whatever level and doing whatever one wants to do. And so I'm at peace and excited to face what I too hope will be my own last wonderful third phase.

Financially we are remnants of a generation that is passing already-we both have pensions, we both have social security benefits and we both have our 403b retirement account. So it's not about the money because we actually have no need to touch the 403b or other investments for our living expenses. So I don't even know what our multiple is, I just know it's on our side!

[TheTimeLord]

2) You seem to be on an eternal search for reasons to NOT retire. What is the point? If you don't want to retire, don't. Lots of people choose that route, there is no shame in it.

Well yes. One (dis?)advantage of following a forum is that it's easy to get to virtually know individuals who are frequent fliers.

This is a constant and frequent refrain from this particular individual; a series of what seem to be rhetorical queries designed to reinforce his conviction that for him retiring is a Bad Idea.

As others have noted this is of course a very personal decision and nobody can answer it for another, however it does get a bit monotonous reading many slight variations of the same question 'tell me why I'm wrong to never retire and I'll refute you to prove I'm right'

Whether someone wants to or not the majority of people at some point end up retired. So even if a person never wants to retire you still need to plan for it and should want to make it a positive experience. That said as I pointed out earlier in this thread I am still on target for retiring on the schedule I posted on this forum previously. Up until now I had found this thread extremely useful and insightful but things change.

[TheTimeLord]

TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool

That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.

If he is like me I want 3 months of vacations every year. Not the 6 weeks my employer provides.

I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.

YMMV

I cannot believe that you ONLY want 3 months of vacations every year.

I think 3 months would be sufficient for my needs.

But wouldn't 12 months be preferable?
Not necessarily, which is the conclusion most of the people I know have come to. Probably most would prefer part-time (say 60%) to retirement but often the option is binary.


Like a few others, I'm confused over what you categorize as "fixed income", and if your intention is to be able to fund 15 to 30 years of retirement solely from the bond side of your AA. You attempted to clear up the confusion by stating you were only referring to fixed income needed beyond the amount received from SS and pensions (fixed income). This doesn't clear anything up unless you are contending that you will only derive income in retirement from guaranteed sources. Doing so would eventually skew your AA to 100% equities, which is antithetical to your repeated conservative posts advocating OMY, even if only for yourself.
Having the option to fund my retirement or at least large stretches of it from fixed income isn't the same as planning to do it. It just means in years if equities hit a rough patch early on in my retirement I won't feel compelled to cutback. After all 15x fixed income in a 25x portfolio is merely 40/60.

If I had the same reservations as you I would still be working, rather than being retired for 3+ years. Part of what convinced me to finally pull the plug at age 63.5 was the increasing number of friends younger than me who died, mostly from cancer, another just yesterday at age 56. My 50th high school reunion is coming up next year, which could likely take place in a coffee shop, rather than a rented hall due to the dwindling number of alumni.
Still planning to retire in my 50s, but I don't see my possible death as a motivator unless I felt I wasn't able to do something I really want to do. While work cuts down on the time available to do things it also helps fund the more costly ones.


It's true that you won't have any regrets after you're dead, but your loved ones just might. I would hate for my legacy to be "He worked until the day he died", which is more common than most realize, other than for those whom remain living and regret the lost time with you, time which you spent attempting to reach 30x in fixed income.
If I am not spending time with my loved ones while I am working I doubt beyond my will they would care when I die. Already reached 30x.

OMY is an attractive trap, filled with the promise of what-ifs in regards to guaranteed success in retirement, providing a legacy for those left behind, while robbing you of something irreplaceable; Time.
I had almost a year of not working, what I found was it is hard to spend more time with people who are still working when you aren't. Maybe all the planning for retirement is why people don't spend time with their loved ones in the present? Who know?

[KlangFool]

I had almost a year of not working, what I found was it is hard to spend more time with people who are still working when you aren't. Maybe all the planning for retirement is why people don't spend time with their loved ones in the present? Who know?

TheTimeLord,

Then, spend time with people that are not working. 50% of my extended family is in business aka self-employed. A fair amount of them is in semi-retirement. So, when my older brother and older sister early retired at 49 years old, they have no problem forming a tour group to travel to anywhere at any time.

I had been unemployed for more than 1 year a few times. I have no problem spending my time.

KlangFool

[JTColton]

Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.

Everyone's risk appetite is different, although this forum is more risk averse than say MMM. One's experiences at different phases in life will also affect this decision. After 19 years in the military I've seen a lot of people work to the max until their bodies are broken with the thought of "I'll get pension/disability I'll be fine", without thinking about what the quality of that life will be. While not the same, that to me is similar to OMY. Sure you could work for 5 more years and add $XX to your portfolio so you will have a 110% success rate but the possible human costs for that decision are an unknown. So for me, now, I'm going to retire as early as possible to enjoy life while I am fit and healthy (now shooting for part time only NLT 50) and if I need to "risk" portfolio failure to do it so be it.

Time is money, having seen what I've seen I'd rather have the time.

[HomerJ]

Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.

For some people the risk is a high stress job or a unhealthy work environment. This means it could be very difficult to live a healthy life style. Working longer could lead to a much greater chance of significant health problems earlier than expected. The 15x-30x numbers are meaningless if you and/or your loved ones end up prematurely on a death bed.

Never understood the deathbed argument, what will I regret when I am dead?

Deathbed means you're still alive, but so close to death that you are no longer walking around, but lying on a bed.

Still alive, looking back at your life.

The phrase is not "regrets in your coffin".

[HomerJ]

And in many cases, the decision is indeed binary. Working part-time is often not a realistic option in many industries, and doing so can eliminate some of the most valuable benefits that come from continuing to work, especially health insurance.

This.

It's too bad part-time work is not a normal option for most U.S. jobs.

I like my job... I'd love to do it 6 months a year. If I could be guaranteed such a job, I'd semi-retire today, and work part-time for the next 10-15 years. I would enjoy that very much.

Instead, I'm going to have to work full-time for another 5-6 years, and save enough so I can support myself 100% if I never work again after that.

[HomerJ]

Examples...

At age 57, I've already spent 18% of my life living, working, and traveling overseas.
At age 57, I've already spent 26% of my life walking our dogs on a daily basis.
At age 57, I've already spent 44% of my life parenting two wonderful children.
At age 57, I've already spent 47% of my life enjoying fine wine.
At age 57, I've already spent 56% of my life madly in love.
At age 57, I've already spent 75% of my life enjoying the thrill of driving a car.
At age 57, I've already spent 77% of my life with a job and producing income.
At age 57, I've already spent 79% of my life enjoying golf.
At age 57, I've already spent 80% of my life enjoying skiing.
At age 57, I've already spent 81% of my life singing loudly and enjoying it.
At age 57, I've already spent 89% of my life playing piano badly.
At age 57, I've already spent 90% of my life reading books.
At age 57, I've already spent 91% of my life enjoying riding a bike.
At age 57, I've already spent 92% of my life enjoying live performances.

There are other things I didn't list, but you get the idea. Each individual has to decide how much emphasis, time, and effort to put in on the phase of the journey we call retirement. However, most of us spend the vast majority living our lives in the phases prior to retirement.

I don't think people here are saying that they do nothing fun or interesting or educational or inspiring or spirtual in the years before retirement.

What they are saying is that they have more TIME to do those things when you no longer have to work.

For instance, you HAVEN'T spent 89% of your life playing piano badly or 92% of your life enjoying live performances.

You've spent 0.01% of your time of 57 years doing those things, because of work or school or other commitments.

In 10 years of retirement, you'll be able to spend MORE time playing piano badly or enjoying live performances than you did in the previous 57 years.

That's the point.

Not that no one plays piano badly in their first 57 years. The point is, once you have enough money, why are you still going to work every day if you'd rather have more time to play piano badly?

[HomerJ]

We cannot ignore the largest portion of our lives - as in all those years before retirement. In other words, don't save all your living and enjoyment of life for that small percentage known as retirement when the body will most likely not be able to do what it could do in the years leading up to it.

These threads always devolve into a sort of absolutism when it comes to pre- and post-retirement life. People who argue for continuing to work seem to think that people who want to retire early aren't already doing fun things and are just saving them all up for retirement.

Speaking only for myself...I have lived a fun an active life during my working years. I've traveled a lot and done the things I want to do. But I can't travel as much as I want, and I can't do the fun things I want with enough frequency because of work. WIthout question, work is the worst part of every day/week/month/year.

If I wasn't already have fun in my free time, I wouldn't be SO eager to retire early (in order to increase the time I have for said fun).

This. Especially the last line.

[willthrill81]

And in many cases, the decision is indeed binary. Working part-time is often not a realistic option in many industries, and doing so can eliminate some of the most valuable benefits that come from continuing to work, especially health insurance.

This.

It's too bad part-time work is not a normal option for most U.S. jobs.

I like my job... I'd love to do it 6 months a year. If I could be guaranteed such a job, I'd semi-retire today, and work part-time for the next 10-15 years. I would enjoy that very much.

Instead, I'm going to have to work full-time for another 5-6 years, and save enough so I can support myself 100% if I never work again after that.

It's more of an option at the lower end of the pay scale. A reliable person who wants a summer or holiday job paying $10-$15 an hour, for instance, can generally get one with ease, but that involves harder work than most here desire and lower pay as well. Cutting a full-time $100k job down to $50k for six months of work while retaining benefits is seldom available.

[Dandy]

I basically follow Dr. Bernstein's idea of having 20 or so years worth of draw down in "safe" fixed income. I picked "safe" assets to fund retirement to age 90 - about 4 or 5 years past average life expectancy. I think there are a few keys to this approach. 1. Have enough beyond the "safe" assets - my guess is at least as much.
2. Withdraw most years from a combination of "safe" and "risk" assets unless the "risk" assets have a really bad year. I view the"safe" assets more as insurance rather than an ATM. Otherwise you will end up with a rising equity allocation which you may not want later in retirement. You also want a decent allocation to equities to provide some growth and inflation protection. I ended up with 43% equities overall. If it was less than 30% I would have questioned the approach.
3. There is no set it and forget it. Still need to periodically check your expenses, inflation, health, portfolios etc.

One mental barrier to overcome is that you are used to investing for growth for decades and now you are investing for asset preservation. You will be giving up potential gains especially if you do this for a decade or two. When the equities soar you might have second thoughts about missed opportunity.

[halfnine]

....You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.

I have a relative who loved to work. Their self esteem and self worth wear tied to it. Once they could no longer work they faded pretty fast as they had nothing to retire to. I think it's prudent for everyone to diversify their interests long before their job ends.

[Johnsson]

I wonder at those who disparage threads such as this. These are concerns most of us have at some point in time. There's no one size fits all plan, making these discussion helpful for many and cathartic for others. That's why we're up to 3 pages, so far...

We will be at about 15x when we pull the trigger in a 60/40 portfolio. So I guess we have something in common with The Time Lord.

However, our trigger date is 1/1/2021, just shy of 59.5 years old.

No OMY for us (I hope)!!!

[Johnsson]

Duplicate. Too quick on the button.

[HomerJ]

I never did answer the OP.

15x seems reasonable to me

I plan to retire at 25x expenses with a 50/50 or maybe a 40/60 portfolio.

So I will have 12.5x or 15x expenses in fixed income.

30x seems a bit much since that's more one needs in total. But if it makes the OP happy.

[CyclingDuo]

Examples...

At age 57, I've already spent 18% of my life living, working, and traveling overseas.*
At age 57, I've already spent 26% of my life walking our dogs on a daily basis.
At age 57, I've already spent 44% of my life parenting two wonderful children.
At age 57, I've already spent 47% of my life enjoying fine wine.
At age 57, I've already spent 56% of my life madly in love.
At age 57, I've already spent 75% of my life enjoying the thrill of driving a car.
At age 57, I've already spent 77% of my life with a job and producing income.*
At age 57, I've already spent 79% of my life enjoying golf.
At age 57, I've already spent 80% of my life enjoying skiing.
At age 57, I've already spent 81% of my life singing loudly and enjoying it.*
At age 57, I've already spent 89% of my life playing piano badly.*
At age 57, I've already spent 90% of my life reading books.*
At age 57, I've already spent 91% of my life enjoying riding a bike.
At age 57, I've already spent 92% of my life enjoying live performances.*

There are other things I didn't list, but you get the idea. Each individual has to decide how much emphasis, time, and effort to put in on the phase of the journey we call retirement. However, most of us spend the vast majority living our lives in the phases prior to retirement.

I don't think people here are saying that they do nothing fun or interesting or educational or inspiring or spirtual in the years before retirement.

What they are saying is that they have more TIME to do those things when you no longer have to work.

For instance, you HAVEN'T spent 89% of your life playing piano badly or 92% of your life enjoying live performances.

You've spent 0.01% of your time of 57 years doing those things, because of work or school or other commitments.

Edited the list above with an asterisk * to denote the portions of my life involving my work (which I enjoy).

I play 6-8 hours a day for work (and I do play badly), sang 70 performances a year for 20+ years on the professional opera stage, and rehearsed about 3-6 hours every day in addition to the performing schedule. Not to mention all the hours translating, historical reading, character analysis, and memorization (involving many more hours of bad piano playing) to plug 300-400 pages of an opera score in whatever language into my head for every opera. Then there was all of the training, language learning, stage combat, fencing/sword fighting choreography, dancing, voice lessons, and vocal coachings that went into the career preparation. I've also directed dozens of shows involving hours of rehearsing and more bad piano playing. Due to work (teaching it to the next generations), I also attend about 3-5 live performances each week. Have done that as a college student since 1979, and a professional since 1985. Attended live performances since age 5 and all the way through my schooling thanks to parents who introduced me and took me to opera, symphony, ballet, concert, recital and choral performances. They were season ticket junkies. Mom played organ and piano, so I didn't stand a chance.

In 10 years of retirement, you'll be able to spend MORE time playing piano badly or enjoying live performances than you did in the previous 57 years.

That's the point.

MORE time?

God, I hope not!

Too funny. I will, however enjoy more time for some of the other things on my list as well as new, yet to be determined things.

Not that no one plays piano badly in their first 57 years. The point is, once you have enough money, why are you still going to work every day if you'd rather have more time to play piano badly?

Help! I don't want more time to play piano badly.

[JBTX]

I keep hearing one reason to retire is you might die. If you don't like your job, or your job is causing you to be unhealthy, then sure, you should retire or find something else to do. But otherwise I can't see planning your life around a potential premature death. If you die you die. It's as if you didn't live 10-20 years in retirement your life has been wasted or is somehow incomplete.

[marcopolo]

I keep hearing one reason to retire is you might die. If you don't like your job, or your job is causing you to be unhealthy, then sure, you should retire or find something else to do. But otherwise I can't see planning your life around a potential premature death. If you die you die. It's as if you didn't live 10-20 years in retirement your life has been wasted or is somehow incomplete.

Hating your job, or being made sick by it is the only reason to retire?

How about If you no longer need the money from a job you enjoy, and have other interests you like more?

It's as if you leave $1 on the table, you have somehow not worked enough?

[HomerJ]

Examples...

At age 57, I've already spent 18% of my life living, working, and traveling overseas.*
At age 57, I've already spent 26% of my life walking our dogs on a daily basis.
At age 57, I've already spent 44% of my life parenting two wonderful children.
At age 57, I've already spent 47% of my life enjoying fine wine.
At age 57, I've already spent 56% of my life madly in love.
At age 57, I've already spent 75% of my life enjoying the thrill of driving a car.
At age 57, I've already spent 77% of my life with a job and producing income.*
At age 57, I've already spent 79% of my life enjoying golf.
At age 57, I've already spent 80% of my life enjoying skiing.
At age 57, I've already spent 81% of my life singing loudly and enjoying it.*
At age 57, I've already spent 89% of my life playing piano badly.*
At age 57, I've already spent 90% of my life reading books.*
At age 57, I've already spent 91% of my life enjoying riding a bike.
At age 57, I've already spent 92% of my life enjoying live performances.*

There are other things I didn't list, but you get the idea. Each individual has to decide how much emphasis, time, and effort to put in on the phase of the journey we call retirement. However, most of us spend the vast majority living our lives in the phases prior to retirement.

I don't think people here are saying that they do nothing fun or interesting or educational or inspiring or spirtual in the years before retirement.

What they are saying is that they have more TIME to do those things when you no longer have to work.

For instance, you HAVEN'T spent 89% of your life playing piano badly or 92% of your life enjoying live performances.

You've spent 0.01% of your time of 57 years doing those things, because of work or school or other commitments.

Edited the list above with an asterisk * to denote the portions of my life involving my work (which I enjoy).

I play 6-8 hours a day for work (and I do play badly), sang 70 performances a year for 20+ years on the professional opera stage, and rehearsed about 3-6 hours every day in addition to the performing schedule. Not to mention all the hours translating, historical reading, character analysis, and memorization (involving many more hours of bad piano playing) to plug 300-400 pages of an opera score in whatever language into my head for every opera. Then there was all of the training, language learning, stage combat, fencing/sword fighting choreography, dancing, voice lessons, and vocal coachings that went into the career preparation. I've also directed dozens of shows involving hours of rehearsing and more bad piano playing. Due to work (teaching it to the next generations), I also attend about 3-5 live performances each week. Have done that as a college student since 1979, and a professional since 1985. Attended live performances since age 5 and all the way through my schooling thanks to parents who introduced me and took me to opera, symphony, ballet, concert, recital and choral performances. They were season ticket junkies. Mom played organ and piano, so I didn't stand a chance.

In 10 years of retirement, you'll be able to spend MORE time playing piano badly or enjoying live performances than you did in the previous 57 years.

That's the point.

MORE time?

God, I hope not!

Too funny. I will, however enjoy more time for some of the other things on my list as well as new, yet to be determined things.

Not that no one plays piano badly in their first 57 years. The point is, once you have enough money, why are you still going to work every day if you'd rather have more time to play piano badly?

Help! I don't want more time to play piano badly.

Fine, you're a musician. You completely ignored my point.

I do fun stuff NOW... In retirement, I'll get to do MORE.

[HomerJ]

It's as if you didn't live 10-20 years in retirement your life has been wasted or is somehow incomplete.

True, your life wasn't wasted.

But if you work far longer than you need to, you will indeed waste SOME of your time on this planet.

Look, it's a balancing act. You have to find the right balance.

If you die at your desk and you didn't need the money, and there were things you would have rather been doing than work, but didn't do them, then yeah, you wasted SOME of your life at that job.

But of course it doesn't mean your life has been wasted or was incomplete.

[Sandtrap]

From my perspective, 30x is like the top for someone retiring in their 50s, it would be silly to pick a number larger than your reasonable remaining lifespan. I would assume someone selecting 30x would likely have 50x-100x in their total portfolio.

If you have 50x-100x in your total portfolio. retire today!

I plan to buy a stupid SUV (high/mid 5 figures) and downsize into a smaller but more expensive house.

Then either buy them now, or, put them in as a line item in your spending plan.

One of the real-world constraints for those in early 60's pre-Medicare is the exhorbitant cost of healthcare. It's not so much affording retirement based on expenses and porfolio valuation, but avoiding a catastrophic hit to the portfolio by not having heatlhcare insurance (or grossly under coverage). For spouses that are a few years younger, the problem is amplified, e.g. may need to reach 67-70 or higher before the spouse is eligible for Medicare.

Absolutely!!
Until Medicare, the ACA Subsidy Cliff is a big one. Also, the "black swan" during a health catastrophy with a "thin" ACA insurance plan.

[JBTX]

I keep hearing one reason to retire is you might die. If you don't like your job, or your job is causing you to be unhealthy, then sure, you should retire or find something else to do. But otherwise I can't see planning your life around a potential premature death. If you die you die. It's as if you didn't live 10-20 years in retirement your life has been wasted or is somehow incomplete.

Hating your job, or being made sick by it is the only reason to retire?

How about If you no longer need the money from a job you enjoy, and have other interests you like more?

It's as if you leave $1 on the table, you have somehow not worked enough?

Who is saying the things you just wrote? Certainly not me. Seems like you just created a straw man to knock down.

[Sandtrap]

Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.

1. Some, or many, do not have a choice.
2. And for those that have options, terrific.
3. Whether to take those options or not is individual.

[marcopolo]

I keep hearing one reason to retire is you might die. If you don't like your job, or your job is causing you to be unhealthy, then sure, you should retire or find something else to do. But otherwise I can't see planning your life around a potential premature death. If you die you die. It's as if you didn't live 10-20 years in retirement your life has been wasted or is somehow incomplete.

Hating your job, or being made sick by it is the only reason to retire?

How about If you no longer need the money from a job you enjoy, and have other interests you like more?

It's as if you leave $1 on the table, you have somehow not worked enough?

Who is saying the things you just wrote? Certainly not me. Seems like you just created a straw man to knock down.

Your second sentence above?

[JBTX]

It's as if you didn't live 10-20 years in retirement your life has been wasted or is somehow incomplete.

True, your life wasn't wasted.

But if you work far longer than you need to, you will indeed waste SOME of your time on this planet.

Look, it's a balancing act. You have to find the right balance.

If you die at your desk and you didn't need the money, and there were things you would have rather been doing than work, but didn't do them, then yeah, you wasted SOME of your life at that job.

But of course it doesn't mean your life has been wasted or was incomplete.

Thats fair.

I'm just saying it isn't as binary for some people. For many people, retirement is occupying time to keep themselves busy, doing things they generally like to do. But more often than not they aren't monumental things. Puttering if you will. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But in the grand scheme of things if I work a little more doing a job I like and that means I end up puttering a little less on the back side, it isn't as if it is a great loss.

[visualguy]

Thats fair.

I'm just saying it isn't as binary for some people. For many people, retirement is occupying time to keep themselves busy, doing things they generally like to do. But more often than not they aren't monumental things. Puttering if you will. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But in the grand scheme of things if I work a little more doing a job I like and that means I end up puttering a little less on the back side, it isn't as if it is a great loss.

Same with me - I don't see anything all that wonderful that I can (and want to) do in retirement, but can't do now while working. Whenever I think about it, I just come up with things that are also basically variants of work. I actually retired at some point, but went back to work after realizing that I was mostly frittering my time away.

[Quaestner]

Once you reach 25X expenses, flexibility in your withdrawals will probably be of far greater marginal value than saving up even more.

My thinking is evolving along these lines too. But that only works for folks whose planned withdrawals exceed their essential expenses. I expect to be flexible with travel. (I think I might be talking myself into retiring this year!)

[visualguy]

Once you reach 25X expenses, flexibility in your withdrawals will probably be of far greater marginal value than saving up even more.

My thinking is evolving along these lines too. But that only works for folks whose planned withdrawals exceed their essential expenses. I expect to be flexible with travel. (I think I might be talking myself into retiring this year!)

Right, and the cushion needs to be significant at maybe 25%-50% of your expenses... Pretty unlikely in HCOL areas for most people...

[abuss368]

Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.

That is a wide range - 15x - 30x.

[willthrill81]

Once you reach 25X expenses, flexibility in your withdrawals will probably be of far greater marginal value than saving up even more.

My thinking is evolving along these lines too. But that only works for folks whose planned withdrawals exceed their essential expenses. I expect to be flexible with travel. (I think I might be talking myself into retiring this year!)

Right, and the cushion needs to be significant at maybe 25%-50% of your expenses... Pretty unlikely in HCOL areas for most people...

Those living in HCOL areas are not necessarily at a disadvantage because their earnings were generally higher in the first place. But if not, the solution is simple: don't retire in a HCOL area.

[KlangFool]

Once you reach 25X expenses, flexibility in your withdrawals will probably be of far greater marginal value than saving up even more.

My thinking is evolving along these lines too. But that only works for folks whose planned withdrawals exceed their essential expenses. I expect to be flexible with travel. (I think I might be talking myself into retiring this year!)

Right, and the cushion needs to be significant at maybe 25%-50% of your expenses... Pretty unlikely in HCOL areas for most people...

visualguy,

May I ask what do you mean by HCOL area?

The US median house price is 200K. So, to be HCOL, the median house price needs to be higher.

Median house price of 400K?

Median house price of 600K?

KlangFool

[visualguy]

Once you reach 25X expenses, flexibility in your withdrawals will probably be of far greater marginal value than saving up even more.

My thinking is evolving along these lines too. But that only works for folks whose planned withdrawals exceed their essential expenses. I expect to be flexible with travel. (I think I might be talking myself into retiring this year!)

Right, and the cushion needs to be significant at maybe 25%-50% of your expenses... Pretty unlikely in HCOL areas for most people...

visualguy,

May I ask what do you mean by HCOL area?

The US median house price is 200K. So, to be HCOL, the median house price needs to be higher.

Median house price of 400K?

Median house price of 600K?

KlangFool

I mean places like Seattle, SF Bay Area, LA, San Diego, Boston area, Connecticut, New York, Washington DC...

[willthrill81]

Once you reach 25X expenses, flexibility in your withdrawals will probably be of far greater marginal value than saving up even more.

My thinking is evolving along these lines too. But that only works for folks whose planned withdrawals exceed their essential expenses. I expect to be flexible with travel. (I think I might be talking myself into retiring this year!)

Right, and the cushion needs to be significant at maybe 25%-50% of your expenses... Pretty unlikely in HCOL areas for most people...

visualguy,

May I ask what do you mean by HCOL area?

The US median house price is 200K. So, to be HCOL, the median house price needs to be higher.

Median house price of 400K?

Median house price of 600K?

KlangFool

I mean places like Seattle, SF Bay Area, LA, San Diego, Boston area, Connecticut, New York, Washington DC...

With the possible exception of LA, the median household income for all of those cities is above the national average.

[supersharpie]

OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool

This. So many people miss the forest for the trees when approaching retirement planning. Time is more valuable than money.

Worst case scenario, even if you exhaust all of your savings, if you have had a good career and delay taking Social Security until you are 70 you are going to receive between $30,000 to $40,000 in annual benefits. That's more than enough to live in relative comfort, assuming you don't have a mortgage.

[TheTimeLord]

Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.

That is a wide range - 15x - 30x.

Just trying to cover a world that has portfolios from 25x-100x.

[CyclingDuo]

I do fun stuff NOW... In retirement, I'll get to do MORE.

I do wish you plenty of MORE, Homer.

As mentioned upthread, career choice has come with the benefit of having 3-4 months off every year for the past 34 years where we have gotten to do plenty of NOW and MORE. So this household is well aware of the lure of MORE and are thrilled with the amount we have enjoyed thus far.

I was suggesting everyone tally up all of your NOW over your entire working career and you will find your life has not been a waste in spite of any negative feelings one may have towards their work. It's a given we'll all figure out what occupies our time in the MORE during retirement. And it is a given that one's diversity of income streams and amounts - as well as one's health - will help dictate a portion of the amount of MORE that one enjoys.

With regard to the multiple of fixed income that the OP asks, I would highly recommend a book that came out this year and is written by another resident of your state with regard to asset allocation and planning for retirement: Larry Swedroe and Kevin Grogan's Your Complete Guide to a Successful Retirement.
https://www.stltoday.com/business/colum ... 33301.html

We live in a challenging era for retirement planning, Swedroe notes. The book’s introduction dramatizes this point by listing the “four horsemen of the retirement apocalypse”: historically high stock prices, low bond yields, increased longevity and the risk of needing long-term care.

The first two mean you should expect investment returns that are below historical averages; the last two mean you’ll probably need a bigger nest egg than your parents’ generation did.

Swedroe himself, who’s 67, is not ready to put his feet up just yet.

“I’ll retire the day it becomes work,” he said. “For me, the job is fun and it keeps me intellectually stimulated, and talking to people about their goals is very rewarding.”

He says he has told Buckingham that he expects to work full-time at least until age 72. With luck, he’ll distill his sound advice into another book or two before then.

CyclingDuo

[mak1277]

Thats fair.

I'm just saying it isn't as binary for some people. For many people, retirement is occupying time to keep themselves busy, doing things they generally like to do. But more often than not they aren't monumental things. Puttering if you will. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But in the grand scheme of things if I work a little more doing a job I like and that means I end up puttering a little less on the back side, it isn't as if it is a great loss.

Same with me - I don't see anything all that wonderful that I can (and want to) do in retirement, but can't do now while working. Whenever I think about it, I just come up with things that are also basically variants of work. I actually retired at some point, but went back to work after realizing that I was mostly frittering my time away.

For me, the most boring day of puttering is still better than the best day I've ever had at work.