Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

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dknightd
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by dknightd » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:02 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm

TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.

If he is like me I want 3 months of vacations every year. Not the 6 weeks my employer provides.

I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.

YMMV

radiowave
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by radiowave » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:07 pm

dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:43 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:02 pm
From my perspective, 30x is like the top for someone retiring in their 50s, it would be silly to pick a number larger than your reasonable remaining lifespan. I would assume someone selecting 30x would likely have 50x-100x in their total portfolio.
If you have 50x-100x in your total portfolio. retire today!
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:02 pm
I plan to buy a stupid SUV (high/mid 5 figures) and downsize into a smaller but more expensive house. :oops:
Then either buy them now, or, put them in as a line item in your spending plan.
One of the real-world constraints for those in early 60's pre-Medicare is the exhorbitant cost of healthcare. It's not so much affording retirement based on expenses and porfolio valuation, but avoiding a catastrophic hit to the portfolio by not having heatlhcare insurance (or grossly under coverage). For spouses that are a few years younger, the problem is amplified, e.g. may need to reach 67-70 or higher before the spouse is eligible for Medicare.
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KlangFool
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:09 pm

dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:02 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm

TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.

If he is like me I want 3 months of vacations every year. Not the 6 weeks my employer provides.

I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.

YMMV
dknightd,

<<That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.>>

What has that got to do with fairness? OP does not want to retire now because he has nothing better than his work now. So, he rather works and makes money than doing any other stuff. This is my observation and others' observation as per his repeated OMY thread.

<<I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.>>

You are not OP. The comment is specific to him.

KlangFool

dknightd
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by dknightd » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:40 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:09 pm


dknightd,

<<That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.>>

What has that got to do with fairness? OP does not want to retire now because he has nothing better than his work now. So, he rather works and makes money than doing any other stuff. This is my observation and others' observation as per his repeated OMY thread.

<<I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.>>

You are not OP. The comment is specific to him.

KlangFool
Fair enough. I did not recognize them as a one more year people. There are several here. I'm too lazy to see if they are actually one more year people.

One more year
One more year
One more year

Hope you do not die between one of those years. But it really does not matter as long as you are happy. Happy happy happy

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.
TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

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JoeRetire
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by JoeRetire » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:01 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
Everyone has their own worries.

When you retire, you may be a candidate for an annuity to convert your assets into "safe fixed income" that lasts the rest of your life. You would certainly have plenty of company. And it might ease your worries, as long as you don't start thinking about inflation.

Others look at how equities have done over the life of a typical retirement period and are less worried.

I don't know anyone who worries that every year their equities need to have a good year.
Don't be a lemming.

KlangFool
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:03 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.
TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Your life your choice. The goal of personal finance is to provide you the freedom to choose. As to what you choose, it is up to you.

KlangFool

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:05 pm

dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:43 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:02 pm
From my perspective, 30x is like the top for someone retiring in their 50s, it would be silly to pick a number larger than your reasonable remaining lifespan. I would assume someone selecting 30x would likely have 50x-100x in their total portfolio.
If you have 50x-100x in your total portfolio. retire today!
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:02 pm
I plan to buy a stupid SUV (high/mid 5 figures) and downsize into a smaller but more expensive house. :oops:
Then either buy them now, or, put them in as a line item in your spending plan.
I do not have 50x-100x (depending on which spending model I am using), I was answering the question I was asked.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

dknightd
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by dknightd » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:21 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:03 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.
TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Your life your choice. The goal of personal finance is to provide you the freedom to choose. As to what you choose, it is up to you.

KlangFool
I think I should retire from this thread. Since I am apparently clueless ;)

dknightd
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by dknightd » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:33 pm

I'm retiring in part because I do not want to find the guy in the next office dead. He loves his job. His job is his life. My office is next door. I don't want to find him dead. Better I leave now.

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2pedals
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by 2pedals » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:43 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
For some people the risk is a high stress job or a unhealthy work environment. This means it could be very difficult to live a healthy life style. Working longer could lead to a much greater chance of significant health problems earlier than expected. The 15x-30x numbers are meaningless if you and/or your loved ones end up prematurely on a death bed.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:53 pm

2pedals wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:43 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
For some people the risk is a high stress job or a unhealthy work environment. This means it could be very difficult to live a healthy life style. Working longer could lead to a much greater chance of significant health problems earlier than expected. The 15x-30x numbers are meaningless if you and/or your loved ones end up prematurely on a death bed.
Never understood the deathbed argument, what will I regret when I am dead?
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

randomguy
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by randomguy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:54 pm

radiowave wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:07 pm
One of the real-world constraints for those in early 60's pre-Medicare is the exhorbitant cost of healthcare. It's not so much affording retirement based on expenses and porfolio valuation, but avoiding a catastrophic hit to the portfolio by not having heatlhcare insurance (or grossly under coverage). For spouses that are a few years younger, the problem is amplified, e.g. may need to reach 67-70 or higher before the spouse is eligible for Medicare.
Health insurance is an expense. You budget for it and get on with retirement. There is no need to take on the risk of being uninsured unless you want to.

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willthrill81
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:00 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired.
So if you didn't have to work for money, would you voluntary be doing what you're doing right now?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

flyingaway
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by flyingaway » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:09 pm

dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:02 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm

TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.

If he is like me I want 3 months of vacations every year. Not the 6 weeks my employer provides.

I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.

YMMV
I cannot believe that you ONLY want 3 months of vacations every year.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:15 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:09 pm
dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:02 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm

TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
That is not fair. He could spend more time on this web site. More time on other things. Even more time watching TV if he wanted. And still have more time to do other things he wants to do.

If he is like me I want 3 months of vacations every year. Not the 6 weeks my employer provides.

I don't understand this "you must have something to retire to" mentality. I'm not retiring to anything. Except not having to work 5 days a week.

YMMV
I cannot believe that you ONLY want 3 months of vacations every year.
I think 3 months would be sufficient for my needs.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

Wricha
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by Wricha » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:15 pm

TimeLord,
I used to think when I read your posts “for the love of God pull the trigger” Now I get a kick out how many ways we “humans” can tell ourselves stories and I am as guilty as anyone of doing this. Drive on best of luck.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:00 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired.
So if you didn't have to work for money, would you voluntary be doing what you're doing right now?
Nope, compensation is part of the equation.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

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beyou
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by beyou » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:19 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.
Lucky you, not everyone is so lucky. I have a minimum of 3 hrs roundtrip commute daily, some of my coworkers 4hrs. End of the day I am not inclined to do too much after work. I live for the weekends. A vacation once in a while is not sufficient compensation to me. I look forward to retiring and this motivated me to be a saver.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:20 pm

Wricha wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:15 pm
TimeLord,
I used to think when I read your posts “for the love of God pull the trigger” Now I get a kick out how many ways we “humans” can tell ourselves stories and I am as guilty as anyone of doing this. Drive on best of luck.
Or get caught in circular logic. :D
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

random_walker_77
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by random_walker_77 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:22 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Then why bother retiring? Since you enjoy working, and can't think of anything else you'd rather do at the moment, it's not a bad plan to keep working. If you have already saved up "enough", you could even donate a healthy percentage of your take-home and make a real difference to other people. Start TheTimeLord Foundation Scholarships for bright young kids who need a hand to attend college. Underwrite young cancer researchers, feed the hungry, save lives in Africa, fight measles... Just the other day, NPR was reporting on a foundation seeking to fund basic science on what causes pre-term labor in pregnancy, since that is apparently an overlooked area of investigation (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... irth-safer)

Under our system, you don't have to be a scientist or doctor or educator to make a difference for others in these fields. Your money represents resources that can be utilized however you want. Whatever it is you care about, you're in a privileged position where you've got the resources to make a difference.

It's not like there's a shortage of things that seem like they could be improved. With money, you can mobilize a lot of young people to get the word out on the political cause of your choice. You can hire a lot of college students to tutor in underprivileged communities. You can start an organization to bring an idea to life... or you can invest it, to make it available via the markets to companies that can use it to do what they do best.

Wricha
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by Wricha » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:22 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:20 pm
Wricha wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:15 pm
TimeLord,
I used to think when I read your posts “for the love of God pull the trigger” Now I get a kick out how many ways we “humans” can tell ourselves stories and I am as guilty as anyone of doing this. Drive on best of luck.
Or get caught in circular logic. :D
You bet

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SevenBridgesRoad
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by SevenBridgesRoad » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:24 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:53 pm
2pedals wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:43 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
For some people the risk is a high stress job or a unhealthy work environment. This means it could be very difficult to live a healthy life style. Working longer could lead to a much greater chance of significant health problems earlier than expected. The 15x-30x numbers are meaningless if you and/or your loved ones end up prematurely on a death bed.
Never understood the deathbed argument, what will I regret when I am dead?
That's true, but you are being a bit too literal IMO.

The best way to use this metaphor is to think about how you want to live your life. You have the opportunity to plan your life (or not). The amazing thing about humans is we can imagine the future and imagine how we passed our time to get there. Its clear some of the folks here enjoy their work and want to work until their last breath. Fine. There are others who want to have experiences other than work. For this group, work is a means to another end. Neither group is wrong. But, the death bed metaphor, again IMO, is a way to think about your life in advance and plan to live in such a way so that you have few regrets as you get older.
Retired 2018 age 61 | "Not using an alarm is one of the great glories of my life." Robert Greene

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willthrill81
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:24 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:00 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired.
So if you didn't have to work for money, would you voluntary be doing what you're doing right now?
Nope, compensation is part of the equation.
So what multiple are you at now? 30X?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:26 pm

beyou wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:19 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:47 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.
Lucky you, not everyone is so lucky. I have a minimum of 3 hrs roundtrip commute daily, some of my coworkers 4hrs. End of the day I am not inclined to do too much after work. I live for the weekends. A vacation once in a while is not sufficient compensation to me. I look forward to retiring and this motivated me to be a saver.
I understand. I received an inquiry for a position that would have required a similar commute, I told them that would be a non-starter.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:33 pm

random_walker_77 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:22 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Then why bother retiring? Since you enjoy working, and can't think of anything else you'd rather do at the moment, it's not a bad plan to keep working. If you have already saved up "enough", you could even donate a healthy percentage of your take-home and make a real difference to other people. Start TheTimeLord Foundation Scholarships for bright young kids who need a hand to attend college. Underwrite young cancer researchers, feed the hungry, save lives in Africa, fight measles... Just the other day, NPR was reporting on a foundation seeking to fund basic science on what causes pre-term labor in pregnancy, since that is apparently an overlooked area of investigation (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... irth-safer)

Under our system, you don't have to be a scientist or doctor or educator to make a difference for others in these fields. Your money represents resources that can be utilized however you want. Whatever it is you care about, you're in a privileged position where you've got the resources to make a difference.

It's not like there's a shortage of things that seem like they could be improved. With money, you can mobilize a lot of young people to get the word out on the political cause of your choice. You can hire a lot of college students to tutor in underprivileged communities. You can start an organization to bring an idea to life... or you can invest it, to make it available via the markets to companies that can use it to do what they do best.
There are some things I want to do that don't fit in with working full-time so I need to retire before the window closes on the possibility of accomplishes those closes. Or at the very least make major modifications to my work schedule.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

random_walker_77
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by random_walker_77 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:44 pm

One of the truly great benefits of reaching financial independence is that you have the complete freedom to ask for what you want and/or play hardball. At that point, you have a lot less to lose. What's the worst they can do, fire you? How much time do you need to do what you want to do? Why not ask for a 6 month (or 12 month) sabbatical? Or ask for a reduced work schedule for the next x months? Worst-case, quit and find another equivalent position later, after you've done what you want to do?

And to the original question, 15x of fixed income doesn't seem unreasonable. Especially if you include social security as part of that. Even without SS, at full retirement age, with 25x saved up, in a 40/60 portfolio, that's 15x of fixed income. For those with SS and US median-type incomes, SS is probably equivalent to another 8x.

For those who need extra safety, and are retiring in their 30s or 40s, I could see someone retiring at 50x w/ 20-30x in fixed income. That'd all still be in the 60/40 - 40/60 range.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by harvestbook » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:45 pm

The trouble with being ultra conservative is that you're going to die. So any years spent hoping to insure yourself against the unlikely horror of actually having to face old age like many other people may have been better spent actually...living.

I've never seen it explained as clearly as on today's Go Curry Cracker blog: "You Will Die Before You Run Out of Money." https://www.gocurrycracker.com/you-will ... -of-money/

Sure, he's an optimist, and aggressive, and retired early, but his chart suggests most people's retirement fund will grow substantially rather than run out. It's weird how much energy is focused on the "chance of failure" when it's the least likely circumstance of all.
Image

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by flyingaway » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:56 pm

harvestbook wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:45 pm
The trouble with being ultra conservative is that you're going to die. So any years spent hoping to insure yourself against the unlikely horror of actually having to face old age like many other people may have been better spent actually...living.

I've never seen it explained as clearly as on today's Go Curry Cracker blog: "You Will Die Before You Run Out of Money." https://www.gocurrycracker.com/you-will ... -of-money/

Sure, he's an optimist, and aggressive, and retired early, but his chart suggests most people's retirement fund will grow substantially rather than run out. It's weird how much energy is focused on the "chance of failure" when it's the least likely circumstance of all.
Image

I understand that we all have different requirements for emotional security. I think I'll take my chances on a 99 percent success rate.
He just have a blog to make at least $40k a year, so he CAN be an optimist.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:59 pm

harvestbook wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:45 pm
The trouble with being ultra conservative is that you're going to die. So any years spent hoping to insure yourself against the unlikely horror of actually having to face old age like many other people may have been better spent actually...living.

I've never seen it explained as clearly as on today's Go Curry Cracker blog: "You Will Die Before You Run Out of Money." https://www.gocurrycracker.com/you-will ... -of-money/

Sure, he's an optimist, and aggressive, and retired early, but his chart suggests most people's retirement fund will grow substantially rather than run out. It's weird how much energy is focused on the "chance of failure" when it's the least likely circumstance of all.
Image

I understand that we all have different requirements for emotional security. I think I'll take my chances on a 99 percent success rate.
I am not attempting to protect myself from old age, I am attempting to protect myself from a negative sequence of returns in retirement when I expect to be the most vital and would least want to have to cut back or reign in spending.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by JBTX » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:07 pm

This subject always seems to be presented as such a binary decision. If you continue to work, you suffer, or retire and experience nirvana. But if, and only if you would do your job for free do you keep working.

I guess people here mostly really hate their jobs. The pro work position is an ironic position for me to take because I have never been motivated by career.

Real life choices are a spectrum.

maybe I'll enjoy retirement only a little bit more than work, but I'm getting paid at work which gives more enjoyment potential down the road. Seems like if you retire early, if your goal is to live frugally for 50 years then fine. However if you wanted to do a lot of travel you may be able to travel more by working a couple of more years.

Also these simple calculators aren't really helpful. The reality is if you retire early, you hit your savings harder until social security, when you need less. But if the markets tank during that pre retirement phase then you will have to buckle down and *hope* the market recovers, as it always has in the US, and believe that the US is special and could never experience a Japan like scenario.

To each his/her own, but I'd like a high degree of confidence throughout my retirement. With 4.0% SWR scenarios there is a decent chance along the way the markets will go down a lot, and your withdrawal rate will go up a lot, with the hope that then market recovers (as it always has....in the US). I don't want to be 70 years old and suddenly pulling out 10% of my portfolio after a crash praying for a market recovery.

A 3.0% gives more of a comfort zone. If we die with money leftover (as is the plan) our kids will get more. That isn't terrible either.

I don't get the philosophy that dying with remaining assets is a failure. Maybe you leave it to kids. Maybe you leave it to charity. And having a substantial nest egg does buy you some peace of mind.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by CurlyDave » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
+1

I have pointed out a few times that the idea of deciding on a spending pattern and trying to make income in retirement match it is the exact opposite of what we have done all our lives.

When I worked, I had to keep my spending below my income -- far below in order to save anything.

I carried this over into retirement. Sure, I would like to have a certain level of spending, but I was fully prepared to accept that I might have to cut expenses somewhere along there line. If it got bad enough, I was willing to consider buying an RV and spending a lot of years as a nomad.

So, we stepped out in faith and have not been disappointed.

The reality is that I have been retired 12 years and our resources have increased. So has our spending, but a lot of that is discretionary and we could easily cut back to 50% with no real pain.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm

JBTX wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:07 pm
This subject always seems to be presented as such a binary decision. If you continue to work, you suffer, or retire and experience nirvana. But if, and only if you would do your job for free do you keep working.

I guess people here mostly really hate their jobs. The pro work position is an ironic position for me to take because I have never been motivated by career.

Real life choices are a spectrum.
It's not that I hate my job at all. On the contrary, I actually enjoy it quite a lot. But there are other things that I would enjoy significantly more.

And in many cases, the decision is indeed binary. Working part-time is often not a realistic option in many industries, and doing so can eliminate some of the most valuable benefits that come from continuing to work, especially health insurance.

Now if your career is one that allows you to simply reduce your hours or weeks worked, then just slowing down may be perfectly appropriate. But in many cases, that's not a realistic option.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:35 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:59 pm
I am not attempting to protect myself from old age, I am attempting to protect myself from a negative sequence of returns in retirement when I expect to be the most vital and would least want to have to cut back or reign in spending.
Then buy a SPIA with a COLA that, when combined with your SS benefits, will cover your essential spending needs. The remainder of your portfolio can then be devoted to 'fun money'. That covers longevity risk, sequence of returns risk, and still leaves you both with a significant chunk of your liquidity intact in addition to the possibility for a bequest (if that matters to you).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by KlangFool » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:45 pm

dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:21 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:03 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:47 pm


I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.
TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Your life your choice. The goal of personal finance is to provide you the freedom to choose. As to what you choose, it is up to you.

KlangFool
I think I should retire from this thread. Since I am apparently clueless ;)
dknightd,

If you do a search on OP's posts, you will see that he posted OMY topic almost every year for the last few years. At this rate, I will be retired before he ever retired.

KlangFool

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:52 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:35 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:59 pm
I am not attempting to protect myself from old age, I am attempting to protect myself from a negative sequence of returns in retirement when I expect to be the most vital and would least want to have to cut back or reign in spending.
Then buy a SPIA with a COLA that, when combined with your SS benefits, will cover your essential spending needs. The remainder of your portfolio can then be devoted to 'fun money'. That covers longevity risk, sequence of returns risk, and still leaves you both with a significant chunk of your liquidity intact in addition to the possibility for a bequest (if that matters to you).
I have an irrational fear of SPIAs. I might be able to get myself to buy a small one, especially after a good market run but don't see myself committing significant resources to one.
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by SevenBridgesRoad » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:57 pm

JBTX wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:07 pm
I guess people here mostly really hate their jobs. The pro work position is an ironic position for me to take because I have never been motivated by career.
Count me amongst those who didn't hate their jobs. I absolutely WAS motivated...jazzed... by career. My 35 years as a health care leader were extremely challenging and satisfying. I planned out a career path and was able to end my career as a successful CEO as measured by my Board. Extremely rewarding. Maslow's highest level on steroids.

But I now I have shifted gears for my last phase of life. This phase approach has always made sense to me. Life can have different phases. The first 1/3rd of my actuarily projected (not not guaranteed) life was childhood/education/training. The second third was career plus reaching FI (as defined by SS when we start it at probably 65 or so plus DIAs starting at age 65 plus zero debt/no mortgage plus a completely adequate portfolio using the variable withdrawal method but not 1473.05%-or-whatever-level portfolio). The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.
Last edited by SevenBridgesRoad on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by TheTimeLord » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:58 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:45 pm
dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:21 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:03 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:23 pm


TheTimeLord,

Your problem has nothing to do with money. You do not have something to retire to.

To each its own.

KlangFool
You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Your life your choice. The goal of personal finance is to provide you the freedom to choose. As to what you choose, it is up to you.

KlangFool
I think I should retire from this thread. Since I am apparently clueless ;)
dknightd,

If you do a search on OP's posts, you will see that he posted OMY topic almost every year for the last few years. At this rate, I will be retired before he ever retired.

KlangFool
I think every year since 2014 (maybe 2015) if memory serves. And it has meaningfully increased my retirement savings.
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by sergeant » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:00 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
I retired with a pension that provides 3X expenses. Wife retires this fall with a pension that provides 1X our expenses. We really have no true need for having anything in reserve. So it is possible to be in a position to retire without 30X expenses in investments.

In reality though we DO have 30X expenses in investments. 20X in fixed income. 10X in equities. I'm guessing our children will have a nice inheritance.
Lincoln 3 EOW! AA 40/60.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:22 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:58 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:45 pm
dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:21 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:03 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:56 pm


You are correct to this point I don't see a significant benefit to be fully retired. My agrees I might struggle without a plan.
Your life your choice. The goal of personal finance is to provide you the freedom to choose. As to what you choose, it is up to you.

KlangFool
I think I should retire from this thread. Since I am apparently clueless ;)
dknightd,

If you do a search on OP's posts, you will see that he posted OMY topic almost every year for the last few years. At this rate, I will be retired before he ever retired.

KlangFool
I think every year since 2014 (maybe 2015) if memory serves. And it has meaningfully increased my retirement savings.
You could say that if you kept working right until the day you die.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:52 am

dknightd wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:33 pm
I'm retiring in part because I do not want to find the guy in the next office dead. He loves his job. His job is his life. My office is next door. I don't want to find him dead. Better I leave now.
That's a great reason to retire. People are dying in their offices left and right every day. Let someone else find all those bodies.
:oops:
Don't be a lemming.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by Wiggums » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:36 am

sergeant wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:00 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
I retired with a pension that provides 3X expenses. Wife retires this fall with a pension that provides 1X our expenses. We really have no true need for having anything in reserve. So it is possible to be in a position to retire without 30X expenses in investments.

In reality though we DO have 30X expenses in investments. 20X in fixed income. 10X in equities. I'm guessing our children will have a nice inheritance.
Adopt me. :-)

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by CyclingDuo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:51 am

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm
OP,

There is a risk of working longer than necessary. Then, you may not have enough healthy years to live your life. In that situation, you do not get a chance to do it over.

Your life your choice.

KlangFool
We like to think that it is all about the entire journey we have here on earth (one life, one shot), not just the portion of the journey after work that we call retirement. Or the portion of the years we call work. Or the portion of years we call before work.

For those reasons, no matter who we are talking about, we would take issue with the concept that all those years we spend leading up to retirement don't count as the major part of the journey we do indeed enjoy as healthy years living our life. In fact, for most of us, those years represent the majority of all our years we get here on earth. The way we see it, the real risk is not to live your life in that larger portion of the journey.

I am going to agree with your words of "your life, your choice". Our choice would be to live your life through the entire journey.
:sharebeer

The OP - TheTimeLord - did mention: I guess you might be correct for some of the early FIRE types but I haven't found it to be the case I can't live my life while working. I have had many rewarding trips, adventures and experiences while working, beginning in my 20s and continuing up until today.

It is true we only get one shot at retirement (for most of us, that will equate to only about 13% of our life*). It's also true we only get one shot at our life leading up to retirement (for most of us, that will equate to about 87% of our life*).

*Based on retiring at age 65 and data of lifespans in the US found here: http://fortune.com/2017/12/21/us-life-e ... cond-year/

We cannot ignore the largest portion of our lives - as in all those years before retirement. In other words, don't save all your living and enjoyment of life for that small percentage known as retirement when the body will most likely not be able to do what it could do in the years leading up to it. :beer

Everyone should make a list of what they have done up to this point. Break it down into percentage of life to date, and especially don't forget to reflect and review on all of the things you enjoy doing, and what you have already done in the largest part of your life (all those years before retirement).

It helps put things in perspective of what you might still want to do, or perhaps not do during the shorter part of your life (retirement). Then one can decide if they are retiring from something or to something.

Examples...

At age 57, I've already spent 18% of my life living, working, and traveling overseas.
At age 57, I've already spent 26% of my life walking our dogs on a daily basis.
At age 57, I've already spent 44% of my life parenting two wonderful children.
At age 57, I've already spent 47% of my life enjoying fine wine.
At age 57, I've already spent 56% of my life madly in love.
At age 57, I've already spent 75% of my life enjoying the thrill of driving a car.
At age 57, I've already spent 77% of my life with a job and producing income.
At age 57, I've already spent 79% of my life enjoying golf.
At age 57, I've already spent 80% of my life enjoying skiing.
At age 57, I've already spent 81% of my life singing loudly and enjoying it.
At age 57, I've already spent 89% of my life playing piano badly.
At age 57, I've already spent 90% of my life reading books.
At age 57, I've already spent 91% of my life enjoying riding a bike.
At age 57, I've already spent 92% of my life enjoying live performances.

There are other things I didn't list, but you get the idea. Each individual has to decide how much emphasis, time, and effort to put in on the phase of the journey we call retirement. However, most of us spend the vast majority living our lives in the phases prior to retirement.
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by gmaynardkrebs » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:52 am

aristotelian wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:09 pm
The problem is inflation. 30X expenses in fixed income has a higher chance of failure than 20X expenses in stocks over 40, 50, and 60 years. You mention retiring at 50, so you would only have a better chance on the fixed income (even with a head start of 10 years of expenses) if you plan to die at 80, and you are also much less likely to leave a legacy at that point. 25X expenses in stocks even beats 30X in fixed income over 30 years.
TIPS/IBonds solve the inflation problem completely. There is zero chance of failure. The problem for many people is that they lack the discipline to save enough in TIPS/IBonds to get 20X. Or, they agree with @cyclingduo. I do not as far as spending goes, but that's a personal choice, because I think you can take time to smell the roses and still save enough.
Last edited by gmaynardkrebs on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by vineviz » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:52 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:35 pm
TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:59 pm
I am not attempting to protect myself from old age, I am attempting to protect myself from a negative sequence of returns in retirement when I expect to be the most vital and would least want to have to cut back or reign in spending.
Then buy a SPIA with a COLA that, when combined with your SS benefits, will cover your essential spending needs. The remainder of your portfolio can then be devoted to 'fun money'. That covers longevity risk, sequence of returns risk, and still leaves you both with a significant chunk of your liquidity intact in addition to the possibility for a bequest (if that matters to you).
I have an irrational fear of SPIAs. I might be able to get myself to buy a small one, especially after a good market run but don't see myself committing significant resources to one.
I hope you can find a way to get over your fears: irrationality when it comes to finances often leads to suboptimal decisions.

SPIAs aren't for every situation, but they are incredibly useful at reducing sequence of return risk in portfolios where the SWR is uncomfortably high (due to either financial reality or risk aversion). For many investors with higher-than-median incomes, coming up with a plan to build an income stream from SPIAs roughly equal to their initial (or expected) Social Security payments would provide a great deal of peace-of-mind.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by hudson » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:03 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:51 pm
Maybe it is because I want to retire in my 50s and not my 30s or 40s or that I feel the value of my human capital falls off a cliff the day I retire but I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to retire without having somewhere between 15x-30x in safe fixed income. From my perspective if I couldn't do that it would mean I would have too high a need to take risk. I guess I just don't want to feel like every year I need my equity holdings to have a good year. So I would like to understand the other perspective on this.
I think having lots of safe fixed income is a great idea. I also have no problem with 100% fixed income. I've read what the studies say about 100% fixed; knowing what happened in the past, I'm happy with low or no equities.

I know that you've done the math and probably know exactly where you want to go.

Larry Swedroe had a contribution on the subject in Dec. 2016: viewtopic.php?p=3169045#p3169045

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by CyclingDuo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:07 am

gmaynardkrebs wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:52 am
Or, they agree with @cyclingduo. I do not as far as spending goes, but that's a personal choice, because I think you can take time to smell the roses and still save enough.
I think you misunderstood my post. I did not say anything about not saving along the way while taking time to smell the roses.
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by MikeG62 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:17 am

SevenBridgesRoad wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:57 pm

...The last third (I know...hopefully a third!) is about doing what I want to do everyday without the time commitment and responsibility of a paid job. I've been in this last phase (retirement) for less than a year, but I have to say it's pretty cool. The feeling of freedom is unbelievable. And what if I get bored a year or two from now? The idea that the only cure for boredom is a job doesn't make sense to me. There are a thousand and one things to do in this last phase.
Well said and my sentiments exactly (I am in my fourth year of early retirement).
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by aristotelian » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:20 am

gmaynardkrebs wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:52 am
aristotelian wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:09 pm
The problem is inflation. 30X expenses in fixed income has a higher chance of failure than 20X expenses in stocks over 40, 50, and 60 years. You mention retiring at 50, so you would only have a better chance on the fixed income (even with a head start of 10 years of expenses) if you plan to die at 80, and you are also much less likely to leave a legacy at that point. 25X expenses in stocks even beats 30X in fixed income over 30 years.
TIPS/IBonds solve the inflation problem completely. There is zero chance of failure. The problem for many people is that they lack the discipline to save enough in TIPS/IBonds to get 20X. Or, they agree with @cyclingduo. I do not as far as spending goes, but that's a personal choice, because I think you can take time to smell the roses and still save enough.
Sure, that would work. However, you would need a lot more than 20X for a standard 30 year retirement, and even more for an early retirement as OP's suggests retiring in his 50s. You would also lose any flexibility to increase your budget if needed, as well as the option of legacy.

mak1277
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Re: Can't see retiring without 15x-30x fixed income

Post by mak1277 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:59 am

CyclingDuo wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:51 am
We cannot ignore the largest portion of our lives - as in all those years before retirement. In other words, don't save all your living and enjoyment of life for that small percentage known as retirement when the body will most likely not be able to do what it could do in the years leading up to it. :beer
These threads always devolve into a sort of absolutism when it comes to pre- and post-retirement life. People who argue for continuing to work seem to think that people who want to retire early aren't already doing fun things and are just saving them all up for retirement.

Speaking only for myself...I have lived a fun an active life during my working years. I've traveled a lot and done the things I want to do. But I can't travel as much as I want, and I can't do the fun things I want with enough frequency because of work. WIthout question, work is the worst part of every day/week/month/year.

If I wasn't already have fun in my free time, I wouldn't be SO eager to retire early (in order to increase the time I have for said fun).

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