portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am

Hello all-
Thanks ahead for any input or suggestions. We are young "do it yourself" investors who would value the input of the more experienced members of this forum. We both finished professional school/training within the last 3-5 years and have a bit of a late start.

Here is where we stand:

Combined W2 Income: ~$650k in 2018, likely closer to $750k in 2019. We are burning the candle at both ends and have young kids, so not sure how long this will be sustainable for both of us.

Emergency Fund: $55.5k – Roughly 6 months expenses
Major bank checking (no fees, no interest): ~$10.5k
Major bank Savings (0.01% apy): $10k
Online Savings acct (2.2% apy): $35k

Debt: $544.1k
Mortgage: $536k @ 3.625% fixed (28 of 30 years remaining)
Car 1- $5.1k remaining @ 4.5%, blue book value ~$13k
Car 2 - $3k remaining @ 0%, blue book value ~$14k
No credit card or other consumer debt
We have aggressively paid off >$400k in school loans

Tax Filing Status: Married Filing Jointly
Tax Rate: 37% federal, 3.07% State (PA), DW also pays 3.46% city wage tax
State of Residence: PA
Age: 34 and 35

Desired Asset allocation: 95% stocks / 5% bonds
Desired International allocation: 30% of stocks


Current retirement assets (~$453k including 529’s)

Taxable: $31k
6.84%% vanguard total stock ETF (VTI) ER – 0.04%

His 401k: $108.4k
16.1% vanguard total stock admiral (VTSAX) ER 0.04%
7.83% vanguard total international stock admiral (VTIAX) ER- 0.11%
Company contributes difference between individual 401k max and total IRS defined contribution plan max (Ie 56k – 19k = 37k in 2019)

His Backdoor Roth IRA at Vanguard: $31.7k
1% Vanguard total international stock admiral (VTIAX) (0.11%)
6% vanguard total stock market admiral (VTSAX) (0.04%)
His HSA: $29.7k
1.64%% vanguard total stock market admiral (VTSAX) ER 0.04%
4.44% vanguard total stock ETF (VTI) ER 0.04%
0.48% SPDR total stock market ETF (SPTM) ER 0.03%


Her Fidelity 401k – $109k – no company match
2.13% Western Asset Core Plus Bond CIT Unit Class R4 – intermediate bond (? Cant find ticker) (0.29%)
17.5% Russell 1000 index fund (Large blend) (0.02%)
4.42% iShares MSCI EAFE International Index Fund Class K (BTMKX) (0.06%)

Her Backdoor Roth IRA at Vanguard - ~$32k
7.1% vanguard target retirement 2050 investor class (VFIFX) (0.15%)

529’s
Child 1- 4yo- ~56k
9.96%% Total stock market index portfolio (no ticker) (0.225%)
2.4% Total international stock index portfolio (no ticker) (0.275%)

Child 2 – 1.5yo- ~55k
9.8%% Total stock market index portfolio (no ticker) (0.225%)
2.4%% Total international stock index portfolio (no ticker) (0.275%)


Contributions

New annual Contributions
$19k his 401k + $37k employer contribution
$19k her 401k (no employer match)
$6k his backdoor roth ira
$6k her backdoor roth ira
$7K HSA
$60k 529’s (30k for each child)
$100k taxable

Available funds

Funds available in his 401(k)
wide variety of vanguard admiral index funds including target funds, total stock, total bond, total international. No REITs

Funds available in her 403(b)
vanguard target retirement institutional funds (ER ~0.09%), the Russell 100 fund we are using, the total bond fund we are using, otherwise a bunch of high fee actively managed junk

Questions:
1. My goal is to achieve financial independence as soon as possible. I would like to fully fund undergrad tuition for both kids (+/- maybe a third child) and maintain an income of ~$150k in 2019 dollars adjusted for inflation throughout retirement. Are there any changes I can or should make to my portfolio to achieve this goal faster?

2. I’m funding the 529’s pretty blindly. My state has a small tax incentive to max those account up to ~30k per kid, but I’m not sure how many years I should continue to do this. At some point I imagine my investments gains may surpass the price of my kids’ college tuition.

3. Is my emergency fund excessive? It's a little painful to leave all of this money on the sidelines. If not, should I try to get a better return out of it somehow?

Thanks!
MD

ARLJLKL
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 10:49 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by ARLJLKL » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:34 pm

MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am
1. My goal is to achieve financial independence as soon as possible. I would like to fully fund undergrad tuition for both kids (+/- maybe a third child) and maintain an income of ~$150k in 2019 dollars adjusted for inflation throughout retirement. Are there any changes I can or should make to my portfolio to achieve this goal faster?
The vanguard target retirement 2050 fund, while it might not match your planned retirement date, probably aligns with your desired AA. You're quite aggressive, so increasing your expected return is unlikely. Just focus on controlling your emotions (when things turn ugly) and your spending. You can reach FI sooner by reducing spending, which provides the double benefit of lowering your target number AND freeing up more more money for savings.
MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am
2. I’m funding the 529’s pretty blindly. My state has a small tax incentive to max those account up to ~30k per kid, but I’m not sure how many years I should continue to do this. At some point I imagine my investments gains may surpass the price of my kids’ college tuition.
While this is the gift limit allowed by the tax code, 18 years of this sized contribution probably won't be required to fund a 4-year degree, even if prices keep rising.
MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am
3. Is my emergency fund excessive? It's a little painful to leave all of this money on the sidelines. If not, should I try to get a better return out of it somehow?
Not at all; 6 months of expenses is appropriate. Some might choose to have even more (especially those with children).

bluquark
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:30 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by bluquark » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:00 pm

I don't know what FIRE means to you, but with a net worth of around zero and two kids, you won't be able to retire at forty or anything. Be patient on that front. The main thing which indicates a possibility of FIRE is your high income. But that doesn't mean anything if you spend it every year, so the main thing you need to control is to live frugally.

For the emergency fund, I think it would be reasonable to put it in intermediate Muni bonds such as VWIUX. That can drop when interest rates rise, but not severely, and in the absolute worst case you can always sell some equities. At the point where you have $100k or more in taxable you have enough liquidity there's no real need to be strict about the safety level of your EF.

Before that though a few small no-brainers are: A) get that $10k out of the major bank savings account, B) pay off the Car 1 loan. You are basically donating money to Major Bank and your car creditor on those.
Last edited by bluquark on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jwhitaker
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:57 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by jwhitaker » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm

Sorry I know this is not the kind of advice you are looking for, but have you stopped and consider the absurdity of what you are contemplating? You guys spent 8 extra years in school and spent $400k on your education. And you want to now get out of your career as fast as humanly possible? I mean, if you are a doctor, wasn't there some point where you felt you wanted to help people? Maybe what you guys need to do is slow down, lower your expectations for yourselves, and get your working life to a place where you feel you can sustain it until your children grow up.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy for what you are doing. It's kind of like speeding in a Ferrari with rock music blasting, driving to your meditation retreat so you can relax sooner. Doesn't make sense in a way. Where you are now makes no sense for a person who would be happy retiring early. What are you going to do all day anyway?

The answer to your financial situation is you have probably already made more income than most people will in their lifetime. If you can't retire early then we are all doomed.

radiowave
Posts: 2253
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by radiowave » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:30 pm

Perhaps the best way to achieve early retirement is to reduce your expenses. For a retirement goal of $150k (pre tax) per year at 3% safe withdrawal rate (150000/0.03) would be around $5M in assets. How long will that take at future projected expenses assuming you will pay off current debt of cars and house?
Bogleheads Wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page

TheMadEph
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu May 24, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by TheMadEph » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:39 pm

I understand desire to fully fund kids' college funds, but I think there is some flexibility is reducing your 529 contributions.
Particularly if you have a third kid, I wouldn't think you need to continue funding 30K a year for 3 kid's college funds for very long. Its probably not a huge tax savings up front (given the PA tax rate) and so your main benefit is tax deferred growth (which is great). But if you want to retire early, you could move a lot of those savings into some tax efficient taxable accounts now (minimizing dividends to extent possible). Very hard to anticipate what the kds will want to do and where they will end up at school. (and with 3 kids, any one of them choosing NOT to go to one of the absolutely highest cost colleges would leave you with a TON of money locked up in 529s)
10K per account per year will almost certainly cover the vast majority of college costs (with expected growth of investments). Plus, unless both you and spouse retire early (and more of a "lean fire") before the kids start college you'll be able to cash flow the difference super easily.
That would be an extra 40K per annum now into the taxable account, which will be crucial to getting to a retire early scenario. So I would consider ramping that back right now (and re-evaluate as you get closer too; even putting money in a 529 during sophmore year of high school can be super useful to pay senior year of college tuition).

My personal approach would be to ratchet down the emergency fund as well - you have great credit (I assume) and you should have short term/long term disability insurance (if not, look into that right away - i assume you are doctors and will want "own occupation"). So put maybe 30K of that into a bond fund (like suggested by another poster) and then shift retirement funds to match desired AA. My assumption here is that the biggest risk you guys have of "emergency" is some sort of disability (as job loss would be somewhat easily solved and probably more foreseeable for doctors - though it depends).

Overall I think you got this handled, except for the burnout stuff --- that can really creep up on you until BOOM you are burned out. So take care of yourselves. Prof school and residency were already hard, no doubt - and with two kids....

Anyway, good luck. You'll be fine!

quantAndHold
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by quantAndHold » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:58 pm

Pay off car 1.

Maybe one more contribution to each 529, then stop. By the time that money compounds for 15 years, it will be plenty.

With a 95/5 portfolio, the emergency fund seems about right.

If you keep your expenses at the $150k level, you can probably quit completely in something like 15 years. But...you also have the option of dialing back the work hours and stress now, in order to have a more sustainable long term career. You’re in the fortunate position where you know you can make big bucks. But it sounds like you need to do some soul searching around the topic of what you want, long term, out of life. It’s not unheard of to be disillusioned a couple of years into your work career, but there are more options available than just working and saving like a maniac for the next 10 years, then quitting completely.

TheMadEph
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu May 24, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by TheMadEph » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:03 pm

jwhitaker wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm
Sorry I know this is not the kind of advice you are looking for, but have you stopped and consider the absurdity of what you are contemplating? You guys spent 8 extra years in school and spent $400k on your education. And you want to now get out of your career as fast as humanly possible? I mean, if you are a doctor, wasn't there some point where you felt you wanted to help people? Maybe what you guys need to do is slow down, lower your expectations for yourselves, and get your working life to a place where you feel you can sustain it until your children grow up.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy for what you are doing. It's kind of like speeding in a Ferrari with rock music blasting, driving to your meditation retreat so you can relax sooner. Doesn't make sense in a way. Where you are now makes no sense for a person who would be happy retiring early. What are you going to do all day anyway?

The answer to your financial situation is you have probably already made more income than most people will in their lifetime. If you can't retire early then we are all doomed.
Maybe they are going to volunteer and travel, but not make any money? Maybe they are going to be hard core mountain climbers? Maybe they are really into woodworking or painting or sculpture or god know what that they can happily spend all day on....
Not sure I understand the concern you are identifying - they dont want to work for money (or feel the need to work for money) - end of story....

Waiting_for_Godot
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by Waiting_for_Godot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:06 pm

jwhitaker wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm
Sorry I know this is not the kind of advice you are looking for, but have you stopped and consider the absurdity of what you are contemplating? You guys spent 8 extra years in school and spent $400k on your education. And you want to now get out of your career as fast as humanly possible? I mean, if you are a doctor, wasn't there some point where you felt you wanted to help people? Maybe what you guys need to do is slow down, lower your expectations for yourselves, and get your working life to a place where you feel you can sustain it until your children grow up.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy for what you are doing. It's kind of like speeding in a Ferrari with rock music blasting, driving to your meditation retreat so you can relax sooner. Doesn't make sense in a way. Where you are now makes no sense for a person who would be happy retiring early. What are you going to do all day anyway?

The answer to your financial situation is you have probably already made more income than most people will in their lifetime. If you can't retire early then we are all doomed.
You'd think it would be absurd until you try it. I spent a few years after college working full-time, trying to gather as much information as possible about a career path that I'd been strongly considering my whole life... finally pulled the trigger, got accepted, started as a first year in medical school, and only then realized how truly miserable the next decade of my life was going to be; and that's only the training part of the equation. Burnout is real, particularly in that profession.

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:11 pm

bluquark wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:00 pm
I don't know what FIRE means to you, but with a net worth of around zero and two kids, you won't be able to retire at forty or anything.
Very fair! But considering the fact that we started investing at 32, I would consider hitting my number at 45 to be a FIRE equivalent.

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:11 pm

ARLJLKL wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:34 pm
MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am
1. My goal is to achieve financial independence as soon as possible. I would like to fully fund undergrad tuition for both kids (+/- maybe a third child) and maintain an income of ~$150k in 2019 dollars adjusted for inflation throughout retirement. Are there any changes I can or should make to my portfolio to achieve this goal faster?
The vanguard target retirement 2050 fund, while it might not match your planned retirement date, probably aligns with your desired AA. You're quite aggressive, so increasing your expected return is unlikely. Just focus on controlling your emotions (when things turn ugly) and your spending. You can reach FI sooner by reducing spending, which provides the double benefit of lowering your target number AND freeing up more more money for savings.
MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am
2. I’m funding the 529’s pretty blindly. My state has a small tax incentive to max those account up to ~30k per kid, but I’m not sure how many years I should continue to do this. At some point I imagine my investments gains may surpass the price of my kids’ college tuition.
While this is the gift limit allowed by the tax code, 18 years of this sized contribution probably won't be required to fund a 4-year degree, even if prices keep rising.
MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am
3. Is my emergency fund excessive? It's a little painful to leave all of this money on the sidelines. If not, should I try to get a better return out of it somehow?
Not at all; 6 months of expenses is appropriate. Some might choose to have even more (especially those with children).
Sound advice. Thank you!

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:16 pm

jwhitaker wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm
Sorry I know this is not the kind of advice you are looking for, but have you stopped and consider the absurdity of what you are contemplating? You guys spent 8 extra years in school and spent $400k on your education. And you want to now get out of your career as fast as humanly possible? I mean, if you are a doctor, wasn't there some point where you felt you wanted to help people? Maybe what you guys need to do is slow down, lower your expectations for yourselves, and get your working life to a place where you feel you can sustain it until your children grow up
True, not the kind of advice I’m looking for.

As an aside, FIRE can be a lot of different things to different people. For us, it would probably mean “retiring” from our psychotic jobs into much lower paying jobs in our respective fields. Our hours would be more normal, we would work fewer late nights/weekends and get to spend more time with our kids.

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:20 pm

radiowave wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:30 pm
Perhaps the best way to achieve early retirement is to reduce your expenses. For a retirement goal of $150k (pre tax) per year at 3% safe withdrawal rate (150000/0.03) would be around $5M in assets. How long will that take at future projected expenses assuming you will pay off current debt of cars and house?
There’s always room to trim the fat, but we’ve lived pretty frugally to this point. We handled the student loans in ~3 years by avoiding lifestyle creep.

Your point is well taken though, the math clearly favors reducing spending.

Thesaints
Posts: 2876
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:25 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by Thesaints » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:30 pm

You made 650k and kept a 5k debt on a car ???
Fix that before venturing in financial analysis.

quantAndHold
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by quantAndHold » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:39 pm

MadDad wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:16 pm
jwhitaker wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm
Sorry I know this is not the kind of advice you are looking for, but have you stopped and consider the absurdity of what you are contemplating? You guys spent 8 extra years in school and spent $400k on your education. And you want to now get out of your career as fast as humanly possible? I mean, if you are a doctor, wasn't there some point where you felt you wanted to help people? Maybe what you guys need to do is slow down, lower your expectations for yourselves, and get your working life to a place where you feel you can sustain it until your children grow up
True, not the kind of advice I’m looking for.

As an aside, FIRE can be a lot of different things to different people. For us, it would probably mean “retiring” from our psychotic jobs into much lower paying jobs in our respective fields. Our hours would be more normal, we would work fewer late nights/weekends and get to spend more time with our kids.
If you can make $650k, couldn't you find a less stressful $300k combined income career path now?

aristotelian
Posts: 6359
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:05 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by aristotelian » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:46 pm

OP, if you are serious about FIRE "as soon as possible", you should be saving much more than $220K (only $160K for your retirement). As a % of income, your savings rate isn't bad, but at your income level it should be easier to have an even higher savings rate. Also, cutting your expenses means you do need to save as much and you can retire much earlier.

I would slow down on the 529s.

Why do you have both VTSAX and VTI in your HSA? Other than that, the portfolio looks good!

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:47 pm

aristotelian wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:46 pm

Why do you have both VTSAX and VTI in your HSA? Other than that, the portfolio looks good!
I recently changed hsa providers. When I did, I rolled a bunch of my old hsa into vtsax. This involved a trade fee of $25.

Going forward I switched my auto invest settings to vti to minimize fees.

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:51 pm

jwhitaker wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:05 pm

If you can make $650k, couldn't you find a less stressful $300k combined income career path now?
We both think it makes more sense to work like animals and make a lot of money for 10-15 years vs working 25-30 years in similar jobs with reduced hours. I can’t wait to wake up one morning and know that I can do anything I want with my time.

nix4me
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:32 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by nix4me » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:40 pm

It’s simple math.

Pay off 100% of your debt.
Then when your investments are 25-30 times your yearly expenses, you can FIRE.

Topic Author
MadDad
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by MadDad » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:46 pm

nix4me wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:40 pm
It’s simple math.

Pay off 100% of your debt.
Then when your investments are 25-30 times your yearly expenses, you can FIRE.
While true, this is more Dave Ramsay level thinking (minus the fact that he doesn’t believe in the concept of FIRE).

The manner in which you pay off debt and accumulate that 25-30x expenses makes a big difference....that’s why I love the bogleheads forum.

bluquark
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:30 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by bluquark » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:23 pm

MadDad wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:46 pm
nix4me wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:40 pm
It’s simple math.

Pay off 100% of your debt.
Then when your investments are 25-30 times your yearly expenses, you can FIRE.
While true, this is more Dave Ramsay level thinking (minus the fact that he doesn’t believe in the concept of FIRE).

The manner in which you pay off debt and accumulate that 25-30x expenses makes a big difference....that’s why I love the bogleheads forum.
When your net worth is at 5x expenses or less, the Dave Ramsey thinking is all that really matters. When your net worth gets to 10-15x expenses range, that's when Bogleheads thinking starts to move the needle. Investment strategy is only a multiplier on your pre-existing wealth.

Rob1
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 2:57 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by Rob1 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:46 pm

Congratulation on your high earnings due to all the hard work you and your spouse have put into your education and careers. Also, kudos to getting a relatively early start on saving for your future.

Others have already given some good advice like paying down the car loan and evaluating contributions to college savings accounts. And your FIRE mentality will serve you well. So I'll simply add a suggestion that you guys work towards a reasonable work schedule that allows you to enjoy life...in the present.

ohai
Posts: 1053
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:10 pm

Re: portfolio review - mid 30's married couple with FIRE on the brain

Post by ohai » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:10 pm

Hi, OP. I don't think FIRE is really what you are aiming for here, as in, I don't think you're going to just give up working when you have $4 million or $5 million accumulated. As you mentioned yourself, you'd probably still work, but at a lower pace. In terms of your self sustainability goal, even in the best case, you're looking at a 10y to 15y time span, during which a lot of things could change. Just focus on optimizing your finances every year and save as much money as possible. I'd also recommend that, if you find yourself in a relatively comfortable financial situation some time in the near future, consider pursuing a better work/life balance even if it means delaying your savings goal. I see too many people in overly demanding lifestyles, and I really can't imagine living like that and giving up so much time while you are young if you don't need to, especially with kids.

Post Reply