Chase credit card dispute - denied

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
mptfan
Posts: 5521
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:02 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:31 pm
What was the fraud? it was a mistake! That is not the same as fraud which requires intent to deceive. No crime was committed.

No one is going to court over this! Seriously? It will get resolved by Avis. No one is going to need cell phone records!
Agreed.

Luckywon
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:42 pm

velociraptor9 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:30 am
Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:13 am
You make a good case for doing it the way you have said but the issue here that stands out to me most is the appalling attitude shown and customer service provided by Chase. It's so different than what I have received from AMEX. The bottom line for me is OP got embroiled in something through no fault of his own and both Chase and Avis could have done far better than they did to resolve this.
That's fair, I'm just saying that the anger is better directed at Avis. This is otherwise a very fringe case, and to not cancel Chase cards as a result of this seems to me to be the wrong choice (especially for people other than the OP), but to each his own. I'm just trying to provide some color based on what probably happened and what caused Chase to conclude the charge was legitimate. Chase is not the final arbiter here, they are obligated to implement Visa's rules, since Visa makes the final determination if it goes that far.
If someone came up to me and smacked me in the face and my spouse was with me and gave a big cheer, I would be more upset with my spouse than the fellow who smacked me in the face.

I make this comment for analogy because I think it explains why I am more offended by Chase's actions (or inaction) here. Avis is the jerk here, but Chase is the company that OP has a relationship with (in this transaction) and I expect to be on OP's side and consider even going beyond their absolute mimimum legal obligation. (I appreciate your good points about the likely legalities of each party's obligations especially with regard to the difference between AMEX and Chase in charge backs.)

I was once trying to withdraw money from an ATM. The ATM broke down midway through. I was charged for the withdrawal that did not complete. I disputed it and the details are a little foggy in my memory but basically the ATM bank asserted that the cash was dispensed. I strenuously objected to my bank (Schwab) and I was eventually given a permanent credit (I think it was $800). I believe that Schwab ate the $800. That customer service inspires me to want to do business with a company. What I hear about Chase in this case makes me want to avoid them.

mptfan
Posts: 5521
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:14 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:42 pm
Avis is the jerk here, but Chase is the company that OP has a relationship with (in this transaction) and I expect to be on OP's side and consider even going beyond their absolute mimimum legal obligation.
Chase also as a relationship with Avis, and I suspect that relationship is much more lucrative. I also suspect that Avis expects Chase to be on their side.

Luckywon
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:43 pm

mptfan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:14 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:42 pm
Avis is the jerk here, but Chase is the company that OP has a relationship with (in this transaction) and I expect to be on OP's side and consider even going beyond their absolute mimimum legal obligation.
Chase also as a relationship with Avis, and I suspect that relationship is much more lucrative. I also suspect that Avis expects Chase to be on their side.
I suspect the relationship between Chase and Avis would not hinge on this case.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:44 pm

mptfan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:14 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:42 pm
Avis is the jerk here, but Chase is the company that OP has a relationship with (in this transaction) and I expect to be on OP's side and consider even going beyond their absolute mimimum legal obligation.
Chase also as a relationship with Avis, and I suspect that relationship is much more lucrative. I also suspect that Avis expects Chase to be on their side.
Yes, but I was not accusing Avis itself of fraud, so they didn't really have as much of a "side" in this as if I was arguing over product quality or delivery issues or some other problem. I do think Chase should have some sort "customer summary" where they can tell at a glace if a customer has been a long-term Chase customer for both business and personal banking services (bank accounts and credit cards), hadn't had a history of disputing charges, etc. At least that should factor in as much as having rented a car from the same merchant thousands of miles away eighteen months prior.

Although I have Avis "Preferred" service, I have only rented maybe a dozen times from them in my life. I have rented hundreds of times from National, Hertz, Alamo, etc. So really on the relationship side I was expecting more help from Chase than from Avis.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:50 pm

MnD wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:58 am
This just seems like an annoying mistake by Avis that finally got corrected. Service work employers in general and especially ones like Avis at major airports are struggling to find competent employees able to manage complex systems for low pay with bad hours.

The only interesting thing is that Visa took action on an authorization (cancelling the card) ahead of the charge posting. I've called a couple of times over the years on seemingly bad authorizations and was told both times by the CC issuer that they wouldn't take any action until the charge actually posted. They explained that many authorizations made by vendors that look wrong or possibly are wrong will be modified by the vendor before the final charge posts. I wonder if the OP didn't force Visa to cancel the card prior to them seeing the actual charge posting and against their advice, and that set this situation off on the wrong foot.
I never contacted Visa, the network, I contacted Chase. They did not give me a choice in cancelling the card number and issuing a new card. Some banks provide a mechanism to suspend a card now, but I'm not sure Chase has that. In any case that option was not offered, upon hearing the story they immediately cancelled the card, which makes the most sense, especially if "suspending" isn't an option for them.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm

Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.

User avatar
2pedals
Posts: 913
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:31 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by 2pedals » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:10 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.

Great news


Some more information here on credit card disputes:
https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card ... t-1282.php
If you were to go through with the dispute with Chase you need to provide a written statement to the credit card company and it may take months to resolve.

michaeljc70
Posts: 5731
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:07 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Good. I am glad it worked out (assuming they issue the credit).

In my view this should have been easily resolved. Ask Avis what car was rented where and if it matches your driver's license number. It is isn't your license, end of story.

I once received a parking ticket for a car I didn't rent. I did rent a car from the company at that time, but the ticket was for a different color/make/model and I was never in the location of where the ticket was issued.

Luckywon
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:13 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Did Avis have anything else to say for themselves? Like maybe an apology?

livesoft
Posts: 68147
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by livesoft » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:14 pm

livesoft wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:18 am
It reads like Avis has this figured out. When Avis credits you the amount, then you tell Chase, "See? Avis determined it was not correct, so no interest or late charges from Chase! Please credit my account with any of those charges. Thanks!"
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.

JSDNJ
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:17 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by JSDNJ » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:17 pm

I havent read the entire thread but this is absurd.

If this is accurate I wont be using chase ever again. I've never had a dispute denied by Amex or Citi

radiowave
Posts: 2253
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by radiowave » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:42 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:38 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:32 pm
LBTRS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm
This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.
I'm not sure how this became such a problem, although obviously it did.

Avis isn't the only company that keeps "cards [numbers] on file".
Surely there have been at least occasional errors other times, at Avis or other vendors, given the numbers of customers who must have "cards on file" at a variety of places.

Yes, it seems it is an Avis mistake, but this somehow seems to have gotten seriously out of control, especially if Avis DID, eventually, acknowledge the error...??

RM
Mostly the problem in both cases has been extremely poor customer service procedures, placing so many impediments to reaching anyone who could actually address the issues.

Assuming Avis has actually resolved the issue (I have not yet received email confirmation from them but have requested it, and am told the credit will take 5 days or so to process), it will only be because I repeatedly contacted them and repeatedly requested to speak to a supervisor or someone in their resolution department. The other reps would just repeatedly take reports and I would have to repeat the same information again and again. The first-level reps spend almost all their effort trying to keep customers away from anyone who can actually resolve problems. I've learned from other experiences that just because one or more persons in a company may acknowledge an error and identify a resolution, it doesn't mean that that will turn out to be the company's position.

As for Chase, it's frustrating to me that after I've had both my business and personal bank accounts plus two business and from two to four personal credit cards (this was a personal credit card, United Explorer) with them for so many years, Chase saw that because I had rented from Avis eighteen months previously, thousands of miles away, I had established a "pattern of using that merchant", and at least partly on that basis decided that I lied about this sub-$200 charge.
One of the things I've done over the years when I travel, car rental, hotel, etc. is grab one of the business cards at the main desk usually the managers card - just in case. This does not apply to OP issue which was a mix up, but from an actionable standpoint, having a number and name of a manager has helped me a small number of times with billing and other issues during travel.
Bogleheads Wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:52 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:13 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Did Avis have anything else to say for themselves? Like maybe an apology?
From Avis:
Thank you for your prompt response in regards to your case id #26449696.
We apologize for the inconvenience we have caused and we are glad to
assist you.
...
Again, we apologize for any misunderstanding.

Thank you for choosing Avis your patience is appreciated. If you should
have further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:54 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:07 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Good. I am glad it worked out (assuming they issue the credit).

In my view this should have been easily resolved. Ask Avis what car was rented where and if it matches your driver's license number. It is isn't your license, end of story.

I once received a parking ticket for a car I didn't rent. I did rent a car from the company at that time, but the ticket was for a different color/make/model and I was never in the location of where the ticket was issued.
The license will match mine because it's filled out from the profile. Not verifying that the license on the profile matched the license provided by the person renting was apparently the problem.

michaeljc70
Posts: 5731
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:04 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:54 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:07 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Good. I am glad it worked out (assuming they issue the credit).

In my view this should have been easily resolved. Ask Avis what car was rented where and if it matches your driver's license number. It is isn't your license, end of story.

I once received a parking ticket for a car I didn't rent. I did rent a car from the company at that time, but the ticket was for a different color/make/model and I was never in the location of where the ticket was issued.
The license will match mine because it's filled out from the profile. Not verifying that the license on the profile matched the license provided by the person renting was apparently the problem.
Okay. I'd ask to see the rental agreement and signature on it.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:28 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:04 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:54 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:07 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Good. I am glad it worked out (assuming they issue the credit).

In my view this should have been easily resolved. Ask Avis what car was rented where and if it matches your driver's license number. It is isn't your license, end of story.

I once received a parking ticket for a car I didn't rent. I did rent a car from the company at that time, but the ticket was for a different color/make/model and I was never in the location of where the ticket was issued.
The license will match mine because it's filled out from the profile. Not verifying that the license on the profile matched the license provided by the person renting was apparently the problem.
Okay. I'd ask to see the rental agreement and signature on it.
When you have Avis Preferred you don't sign anything - you just drive away. It works as long as Avis verifies that the license matches the license on file.

Luckywon
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:32 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:52 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:13 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confinjrmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
Did Avis have anything else to say for themselves? Like maybe an apology?
From Avis:
Thank you for your prompt response in regards to your case id #26449696.
We apologize for the inconvenience we have caused and we are glad to
assist you.
...
Again, we apologize for any misunderstanding.

Thank you for choosing Avis your patience is appreciated. If you should
have further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
Thank you Avis. Here is your grade.
"F"

mattsm
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mattsm » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:33 am

LBTRS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm
This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.
AKA fraud. Did the user give Avis the right to charge the card? It's fraud until the issue is resolved as an error. Fraud until then.

mptfan
Posts: 5521
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:20 am

mattsm wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:33 am
LBTRS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm
This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.
AKA fraud. Did the user give Avis the right to charge the card? It's fraud until the issue is resolved as an error. Fraud until then.
Nope. Fraud requires the intent to deceive or the intent to obtain something illegally, in this case what Avis did was by mistake.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:46 am

Just to finish the story, Avis refunded the rental charge and the one remaining toll charge related to the rental.

student
Posts: 4055
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by student » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:44 am

Thanks for the update.

User avatar
Rob5TCP
Posts: 3368
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:34 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Rob5TCP » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 am

Most of my online purchases are now made with virtual credit card numbers. I can turn on/off as needed.
Most of my #'s are in the off position, unless I am going to use them to make a purchase.
Using those numbers at any other merchant is useless, plus it has to be in the "on" position before
it can be used at any particular online merchant.

jayk238
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:02 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by jayk238 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:17 am

Luckywon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:39 am
Chase's position on this is absolutely apalling and shameful, on so many levels, IMO.

Ironically, just yesterday I applied for my first Chase credit ever, i.e. an Amazon Prime Rewards card. This story makes me think that was a mistake. I do buy a lot on Amazon so the 5 % back may still be too tempting to pass up. At the least, though, I will keep that credit card under lock and key and only use it for Amazon purchases. Maybe I will also ask for a low credit limit.

You should not have had to make the efforts you did to get this on the right track Kudos to you for persevering. It sounds like this will be resolved in your favor but if it does not I wonder if small claims court is an option, either suing Avis or Chase. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the contracts we are under are subject to arbitration.
This may all be aberrations because honestly ive nevwr experienced this. Ive had multiple disputes and chase always sided w me. Almost always as a result of chase helping me the refusing business has given me the credit back once they realized that chase was refusing the transaction( this results in pretty severe vendor penalties).

Ive had checks bounce for whatever reason and chase has never charged me interest or penalty for not paying my debt on time as wel.

I am wondering their treatment of customers is based on how well they value the customer. I have been w chase since 2007 and have only used their products. Their treatment of me has resulted in me purchasing two saplhires-reserve and preferred, a chase checking and savings, home loan and car loan. My stated income is 255k and my credit score is 779.

I have a feeling that this is what determines what happens when things go bad.

jayk238
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:02 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by jayk238 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:19 am

tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:46 am
Just to finish the story, Avis refunded the rental charge and the one remaining toll charge related to the rental.
Might i recommend national? Ive only had good experience. Their rewards are terrible tho

Luckywon
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:49 am

Rob5TCP wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 am
Most of my online purchases are now made with virtual credit card numbers. I can turn on/off as needed.
Most of my #'s are in the off position, unless I am going to use them to make a purchase.
Using those numbers at any other merchant is useless, plus it has to be in the "on" position before
it can be used at any particular online merchant.
Could you give more detail on how you do this, ie for which cards is this practical and are you able to easily toggle on your phone? How many virtual numbers do you have? How often do you create a new one?

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 13507
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:14 pm

I think the moral of the story, which the OP has already acknowledged, is not to leave your credit card information on file with anyone. It's convenient but runs the risk of an event like this occurring.

And while Chase should have reversed the charges, the real issue lies with Avis.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
samsoes
Posts: 1347
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:12 am
Location: Northeast Rat Race

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by samsoes » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:20 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:49 am
Rob5TCP wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 am
Most of my online purchases are now made with virtual credit card numbers. I can turn on/off as needed.
Most of my #'s are in the off position, unless I am going to use them to make a purchase.
Using those numbers at any other merchant is useless, plus it has to be in the "on" position before
it can be used at any particular online merchant.
Could you give more detail on how you do this, ie for which cards is this practical and are you able to easily toggle on your phone? How many virtual numbers do you have? How often do you create a new one?
Both Citibank and CapitalOne have virtual account numbers, but only CapOne has the toggle on/off feature, which is easily done from their mobile app. Virtual account numbers generated in CapOne, however, are for your entire available credit with the same expiration date as the physical card.

Citibank has the ability to generate virtual numbers with preset (low) credit limits, and short-duration expiration dates, but no toggle on/off feature.
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

hudson
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by hudson » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:43 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
How did you get to that person?

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:37 pm

jayk238 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:19 am
tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:46 am
Just to finish the story, Avis refunded the rental charge and the one remaining toll charge related to the rental.
Might i recommend national? Ive only had good experience. Their rewards are terrible tho
Realistically I don't make use of rental rewards - haven't since I was renting weekly - and choose airline miles. I generally use the cheapest major although I like Alamo (so, National) due to the flexibility of selecting my own car. Last month my rental (through Costco) would have cost nearly twice as much ($200-plus more!) with ANY other provider than Budget (which is Avis.)

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:42 pm

hudson wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:43 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
How did you get to that person?
By being unpleasant on the phone. It seems you have to get right to the point of getting hung up on (which has also happened to me), and of course I had to call back multiple times. And sometimes absolutely nothing works. That's what's concerning to me about this: I would be completely stuck with the bill had I not lucked out and gotten through to the person who fixed my problem. My contention is that Chase could have easily gotten through to such a person without any of the drama I had to go through.

I should say that I didn't start out being unpleasant, but it became clear that I wasn't getting anywhere by logical arguments, so there was really nothing else to try.
Last edited by tibbitts on Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:45 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:14 pm
I think the moral of the story, which the OP has already acknowledged, is not to leave your credit card information on file with anyone. It's convenient but runs the risk of an event like this occurring.

And while Chase should have reversed the charges, the real issue lies with Avis.
I haven't tried this with Avis, and in fact have left the now-invalid card on file for now, but the problem in some cases is that you can't delete a card from a profile without replacing it - the web software just won't allow it - and using made-up numbers doesn't always work. As a practical matter you can't not have a profile and rent cars - you'll spend the rest of your life in line waiting for agents to try to upsell the eleven first-time renters in front of you.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 13507
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:47 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:45 pm
As a practical matter you can't not have a profile and rent cars - you'll spend the rest of your life in line waiting for agents to try to upsell the eleven first-time renters in front of you.
We've rented cars in many places and never had a problem dealing with agents. We simply reserve the vehicle type in advance and tell them no when they try to sell us their insanely expensive and superfluous insurance.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
unclescrooge
Posts: 3886
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:00 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by unclescrooge » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:52 pm

p8bwd wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:42 pm
Last year I had a similar issue. During a trip to IKEA, I was erroneously charged for several hundred dollars worth of merchandise I did not intend to purchase. IKEA manager tried to reverse the charge on the same day, but it still eventually posted and I never received a credit. After several weeks of trying to resolve it on the merchant side, they told me to file a dispute with Chase. Initially Chase took the charge away, but then a couple months later they reinstated the erroneous charge with little to no explanation or support. This is despite me supplying substantiating receipts with my initial dispute. It was eventually resolved by the merchant forcing a credit back onto my credit card using a different method, but Chase was of no help during the process. It's super infuriating, as you experienced, to have a dispute denied and an erroneous charge reinstated on your account.
You were lucky.
I bought $3000 with of shelving from Ikea online. About $600 worth was not delivered. Calling or emailing Ikea went nowhere. Citi back dispute was also unhelpful as Ikea said the charges were legit.

Never buy anything from Ikea online.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:56 pm

jayk238 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:17 am
Luckywon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:39 am
Chase's position on this is absolutely apalling and shameful, on so many levels, IMO.

Ironically, just yesterday I applied for my first Chase credit ever, i.e. an Amazon Prime Rewards card. This story makes me think that was a mistake. I do buy a lot on Amazon so the 5 % back may still be too tempting to pass up. At the least, though, I will keep that credit card under lock and key and only use it for Amazon purchases. Maybe I will also ask for a low credit limit.

You should not have had to make the efforts you did to get this on the right track Kudos to you for persevering. It sounds like this will be resolved in your favor but if it does not I wonder if small claims court is an option, either suing Avis or Chase. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the contracts we are under are subject to arbitration.
This may all be aberrations because honestly ive nevwr experienced this. Ive had multiple disputes and chase always sided w me. Almost always as a result of chase helping me the refusing business has given me the credit back once they realized that chase was refusing the transaction( this results in pretty severe vendor penalties).

Ive had checks bounce for whatever reason and chase has never charged me interest or penalty for not paying my debt on time as wel.

I am wondering their treatment of customers is based on how well they value the customer. I have been w chase since 2007 and have only used their products. Their treatment of me has resulted in me purchasing two saplhires-reserve and preferred, a chase checking and savings, home loan and car loan. My stated income is 255k and my credit score is 779.

I have a feeling that this is what determines what happens when things go bad.
My contention is that Chase should have looked at the fact that I have six Chase cards (two business, four personal, including two "paid" premium cards), and have had both business and personal checking at Chase since the early 2000s, through which I've passed hundreds of thousands of dollars. So I've established a long pattern of not claiming charges are invalid when in fact they are. I pay my credit cards before they're due - usually several times a month, as soon as charges show up. I don't have Chase loans - or loans anywhere else since the 1980s, for that matter. I was late on one Chase card payment by a few days roughly a dozen years ago, but didn't even ask for the fee to be waived, since it was a stupid oversight on my part.

Topic Author
tibbitts
Posts: 9299
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:59 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:47 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:45 pm
As a practical matter you can't not have a profile and rent cars - you'll spend the rest of your life in line waiting for agents to try to upsell the eleven first-time renters in front of you.
We've rented cars in many places and never had a problem dealing with agents. We simply reserve the vehicle type in advance and tell them no when they try to sell us their insanely expensive and superfluous insurance.
Yes, but you have to listen to the upsell attempt for the eleven people ahead of you in line, none of whom have ever rented a car before. Before I had online profiles (the 1990s, probably) it would sometimes take me half an hour or more to get through the line to the counter, vs. just walking out to the car and driving away.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 13507
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:11 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:59 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:47 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:45 pm
As a practical matter you can't not have a profile and rent cars - you'll spend the rest of your life in line waiting for agents to try to upsell the eleven first-time renters in front of you.
We've rented cars in many places and never had a problem dealing with agents. We simply reserve the vehicle type in advance and tell them no when they try to sell us their insanely expensive and superfluous insurance.
Yes, but you have to listen to the upsell attempt for the eleven people ahead of you in line, none of whom have ever rented a car before. Before I had online profiles (the 1990s, probably) it would sometimes take me half an hour or more to get through the line to the counter, vs. just walking out to the car and driving away.
Then it comes down to what your time is worth to you.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Fclevz
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:28 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Fclevz » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:42 pm

jayk238 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:17 am

I am wondering their treatment of customers is based on how well they value the customer...

I have a feeling that this is what determines what happens when things go bad.
Yep, apparently we all have a customer’s lifetime value score.

https://bgr.com/2018/11/04/secret-custo ... treatment/

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 13507
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:50 pm

deleted
Last edited by willthrill81 on Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 13507
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:50 pm

Fclevz wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:42 pm
jayk238 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:17 am

I am wondering their treatment of customers is based on how well they value the customer...

I have a feeling that this is what determines what happens when things go bad.
Yep, apparently we all have a customer’s lifetime value score.

https://bgr.com/2018/11/04/secret-custo ... treatment/
Most large firms have been trying to determine customer lifetime value, the net present value of a specific customer to a firm, for at least a decade now. It actually makes great business sense. You should go more out of your way to help a customer that's worth $10k to you than one that's worth $10, and the difference can easily be that great.

On a related note, a study done about 15 years ago showed that many customers who remain with a firm for long periods of time are actually not profitable at all. Hence, customer "loyalty" isn't all that it's cracked up to be, and tracking customers' value can be highly useful, as many firms have now discovered.

That being said, firms still have an ethical obligation to treat all of their customers well.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 18981
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by VictoriaF » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:59 am

radiowave wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:42 pm
One of the things I've done over the years when I travel, car rental, hotel, etc. is grab one of the business cards at the main desk usually the managers card - just in case. This does not apply to OP issue which was a mix up, but from an actionable standpoint, having a number and name of a manager has helped me a small number of times with billing and other issues during travel.
It's a simple idea but most great ideas are simple. Thank you for sharing,

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

hudson
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by hudson » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:57 am

tibbitts wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:42 pm
hudson wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:43 pm
tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Today Avis emailed me confirmation that they are going to credit my account, so hopefully the credit shows up in a few days. But again my issue is that that only happened because I persisted enough to get to someone at Avis who could resolve the problem, someone that I'm sure Chase would have had access to without the difficulty I experienced.
How did you get to that person?
By being unpleasant on the phone. It seems you have to get right to the point of getting hung up on (which has also happened to me), and of course I had to call back multiple times. And sometimes absolutely nothing works. That's what's concerning to me about this: I would be completely stuck with the bill had I not lucked out and gotten through to the person who fixed my problem. My contention is that Chase could have easily gotten through to such a person without any of the drama I had to go through.

I should say that I didn't start out being unpleasant, but it became clear that I wasn't getting anywhere by logical arguments, so there was really nothing else to try.
I've been there; I got unpleasant because of long term frustration with an issue. One time they even had a label for me...something like "the angry one." When things get stuck I ask for a supervisor or the next level of "support." Better Business Bureau (BBB) works for some. I've never seen direct results from writing reviews...but I do that between phone calls. I'll search for the CEO's office number or the corporate headquarters and call them. Once I found the email for the board of directors of a large well known brokerage. That email put me on the path to a solution. They assigned me a case officer; she knew about my SEC filing and BBB complaint. She solved my problem. I'll try to log my calls and include them in a complaint letter that I can easily duplicate and email, fax, or mail. Sometimes, I'll mention that I'm doing 10 bad reviews a day and mailing 10 letters a day until things get resolved. I always mention the CEO's name and let them know that I have the board of directors names and contact info....of course they get my letter, email, or fax. Some companies insulate themselves from solving problems, so you have to fight the credit card folks. I'm about 50-50 with the credit card folks. If they don't help, they are of course fired...I know they don't care. I also don't pay. I will not pay for what I didn't order. I also don't give up. If they promise something in 10 days, it's on my calendar to recheck and re-call.
I've read comments on Bogleheads that American Express does a great job at chargebacks.

Post Reply