Tributes to Jack Bogle

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J0721
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Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by J0721 »

[Please post your tributes to Jack here. --admin LadyGeek]

RIP Jack Bogle and thank you for all that you have contributed to the success of individual investors. Definitely an amazing man and amazing mind for finance. I just thought I would start something where we could share our favorite quotes of all time. I always loved this one!

Buffett called me a hero, but I'm just a guy 'who gave a damn' about investors, says Jack Bogle
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ReformedSpender
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by ReformedSpender »

Most powerful quotes for me personally:

"Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy."

"The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions."


and

"Don't look for the needle in the haystack. Just buy the haystack."


:beer Rest in peace Jack :beer
Last edited by ReformedSpender on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
Market history shows that when there's economic blue sky, future returns are low, and when the economy is on the skids, future returns are high. The best fishing is done in the most stormy waters.
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by Pete12 »

"Don't do something... just stand there!"
NibbanaBanana
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Who Will Speak for US?

Post by NibbanaBanana »

Who will speak for us now that John Bogle is dead?
Is there anyone else in the financial services industry advocating for the individual investor?
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bottlecap
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by bottlecap »

We will.

We are the consumer. We hold the power. We know what we want, thanks to Jack Bogle.

JT
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by jharkin »

^^ + 1

In this age of the internet and social media outlet like this forum have a lot more visibility than back when Jack started vanguard. And the platform also gives voices to the many authors, analysts and bloggers who promote our values - think Rick Ferri, Larry Swedrow, Taylor, White Coat Investor, and too many others I forget...

Not to mention Warren still preaches Jask's virtues, etc.

We will keep on fighting the good fight!!!!
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by ReformedSpender »

bottlecap wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:48 am We will.

We are the consumer. We hold the power. We know what we want, thanks to Jack Bogle.

JT
Not to contradict you, however, institutional agents hold the power by a long shot. In the 50's, individual investors held over 90% of U.S. equities vs the roughly 30% or less held today. Institutions make up the majority vote for corporate America.

Regardless, the precedent has been set thanks to the likes (and work) of Bogle and Vanguard in my opinion. I do not see momentum of Boglehead Principles such as indexing, low costs, diversification, etc. regressing any time soon.
Market history shows that when there's economic blue sky, future returns are low, and when the economy is on the skids, future returns are high. The best fishing is done in the most stormy waters.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Rick Ferri.
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warowits
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by warowits »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:11 am Rick Ferri.
He literally speaks for us, on the Bogleheads on investing podcast.

Then there is Taylor of course, who Jack referred to as king of the Bogleheads.

And the Forum warriors like Livesoft and many others.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by nisiprius »

I was very pleased to see this come across my Facebook feed--I follow NPR but I don't think Facebook knows of my interest in Bogle.

What pleased me is that it wasn't just Wall Street Journal news, it was news, period.

And I was pleased by NPR's title. They got it. It wasn't "Bogle, Founder of Really Big Mutual Fund Company" or "Bogle, Father of Index Funds."

It is "Bogle, Father of Simple Investing."

(And the rest of the article "gets it," too).

Bogle has said that he thinks his greatest achievement was not his creation of the first index fund, but his design of Vanguard's corporate structure.

So, first of all, I think low-cost indexing is here to stay, and a turning point was a few years ago when Fidelity dropped the name "Spartan" from their line of index funds. Fidelity doesn't look at index funds as something they have to do in order to provide something for everyone, they now want people to think of Fidelity when they think of low-cost index funds, and their "zero" funds are further proof of this.

Second, if we compare Vanguard to TIAA-CREF--where I had much of my retirement money--it felt to me as if TIAA-CREF changed direction and lost its way when Herb Allison took the helm in 2002. They had to start advertising "the power of .org" because they no longer felt so much like a non-profit. When they first started offering mutual funds to the public, the press expected TIAA-CREF to give Vanguard competition on low-cost funds. That never happened, and their expense ratios have crept higher over time.

In contrast, my perception is that Vanguard didn't change when Bogle left. It has stayed the course, and remained true to Bogle's ideas and principles, throughout three successors (Brennan, McNabb, Buckley). I'm the last guy in the world to understand "corporate governance" but I think Bogle really did it--he built a corporate structure and culture that has continued after his retirement, and I think it will continue now.

Therefore, I am confident both that Vanguard won't be the only place to get low-cost index funds, and also that Vanguard will continue to be Vanguard, and will continue to be a place to get them.

Link to full article
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by goingup »

I'm not sure Mr. Bogle would appreciate this comparison, but I think about Ralph Nader and his crusade to improve automobile safety. He famously opened consumer eyes to the dangers of car travel and manufacturers reluctance to improve safety. A combination of increased consumer awareness and government intervention changed the automobile marketplace. Safety features became a major selling point for cars.

Jack Bogle's cost crusade has permeated investor consciousness. Investors are demanding lower cost mutual funds and ETFs, and are suing their employers over onerous work place retirement plans. As it turns out, costs matter! The investing marketplace has changed thanks to Jack Bogle and I doubt what he has done can ever be undone.
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by Old_Dollar »

Don’t look for the needle, buy the haystack!

Major aha moment for me.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by livesoft »

While folks here may not like it, Fidelity has picked up many of the tenets expressed by Jack Bogle and also Bogleheads.org. Here is something out this week from Fidelity:

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/inv ... -investors

The six habits are
:
Develop a long-term plan—and stick with it
Be a supersaver
Stick with your plan, despite volatility [even "Stay the course" is used!]
Be diversified
Consider low-fee investment products that offer good value
Focus on generating after-tax returns
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by deskjockey »

Who will speak for us may not be the right question ask--I think what will speak for us is more important.

The answer: our money. Folks like us (and even a lot of non-bogleheads) have seen the advantages of low-cost index investing, and we're letting our money speak--loudly. Think about it--without histrionics, breathless press releases, demands that the government "do something!," or even government action, Bogle triggered a sea change in the way retail investors save and invest their money. He offered a better, cheaper, more effective product, and capitalism worked its magic. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, if companies want to get their hands on our money, they have to listen to us and give us products that hew to Bogle's core tenets of low costs. So long as we vote with our wallets, the financial industry will listen.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by sambb »

I dont think it is a big deal for the futre. I never knew much about Mr. Bogle, but i appreciate his work, index funds are pervasive. Sort of similar to other greats (recent business people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates) or early inventors like THomas Edison, it doesnt really matter too much to me. Henry Ford is gone, but transportation still is here and fluorishing. I think the historical significance is already impactful, and thats amazing. I have No concerns going forward at all. Fidelity already has pulled ahead, Schwab also. Im much more concerned about the IT issues and customer service at vanguard, and i appreciate what work he did already.
Last edited by sambb on Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by Pigeye Brewster »

livesoft wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:59 am While folks here may not like it, Fidelity has picked up many of the tenets expressed by Jack Bogle and also Bogleheads.org. Here is something out this week from Fidelity:

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/inv ... -investors

The six habits are
:
Develop a long-term plan—and stick with it
Be a supersaver
Stick with your plan, despite volatility [even "Stay the course" is used!]
Be diversified
Consider low-fee investment products that offer good value
Focus on generating after-tax returns
"The Vanguard Effect"
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by TallBoy29er »

"It's the little things in life that matter. Make the damn time." - BH Conference 2018

I wrote it down when he said it. It stuck out to me as very practical advice from someone who has accomplished some very Big things.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by phantom0308 »

Companies like Fidelity and Schwab have determined that they can gain customers and revenue from offering low cost index funds and ETFs similar to Vanguard. As long as the demand for those products exists and they are profitable enough to sustain the business, I don't see the products disappearing as long as the economic incentives exist.
Jack Bogle was a great man, and his contributions made investing much better for retail investors. Now that the market machine has been going for decades, I don't see what Jack could do positively or negatively to significantly affect ETFs/index funds.
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by FRANK2009 »

"In investing, you get what you don't pay for"

Thank you for all you've done for all the average investors out there. For making the world a better place.


Rest in Peace...
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ode to St. Jack

Post by larryswedroe »

https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... rner/bogle

BTW, I love Rick's idea to call it the Bogle rule
Best wishes
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Re: ode to St. Jack

Post by 1210sda »

Thanks so much for sharing, Larry. Enjoyed seeing the framed, handwritten note from Jack.
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Re: ode to St. Jack

Post by rjbraun »

Jack personifies what it means to be a Class Act. And more. Thank you for sharing your story and St Jack's note to you. Priceless.
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Re: ode to St. Jack

Post by zengolf2011 »

So good to hear from you, Larry. Thank you for posting this.
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by DartThrower »

CMH = Cost Matters Hypothesis. I think he may have meant this in a tongue-in-cheek way but it always stuck with me. The practical consequences to the investor of the EMH, whichever version you believe, are that costs matter!

I also really like his quotes of famous authors. For instance regarding market speculation: "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing!" He drove home the idea that many of the issues we face today are ones that may have existed and been contemplated in different forms centuries ago.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

I'm afraid we have no remaining choice but to speak for ourselves.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by mcraepat9 »

His legacy will continue on. Vanguard’s ownership structure is revolutionary and his presence is embodied by the continued onslaught of success it has had for ordinary retail investors who just want a fair shake.
Amateur investors are not cool-headed logicians.
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Re: ode to St. Jack

Post by FinancialDave »

I also have two treasured notes from Jack on the inside page of two of his books. Both reference his famous quote "Stay the Course!"

His impact on the investing world from the Vanguard Index Fund to all his books and thoughts on investing has certainly impacted my life as well as millions of others.


RIP
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by NMBob »

Ben Stein
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by dave_k »

livesoft wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:59 am While folks here may not like it, Fidelity has picked up many of the tenets expressed by Jack Bogle and also Bogleheads.org. Here is something out this week from Fidelity:

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/inv ... -investors

The six habits are
:
Develop a long-term plan—and stick with it
Be a supersaver
Stick with your plan, despite volatility [even "Stay the course" is used!]
Be diversified
Consider low-fee investment products that offer good value
Focus on generating after-tax returns
Not sure why any of us wouldn't like it. Nothing wrong with some competition to provide low cost index funds. I have accounts at both Fidelity and Vanguard to get the lowest cost access to what I want - Fidelity mainly for stock index ETFs/funds and Vanguard for muni bond funds.
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by JoMoney »

NMBob wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:13 pmBen Stein
Uhhhh... No. He generally seems to have the right idea, but maybe not quite the same:
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Mr. Bogle's Life and Legacy-"Kindness and Humanity"

Post by Kathleen Ryan »

[Thread merged into here, see below (next page) --admin LadyGeek]

Mr. Bogle loved his Bogleheads, and he frequently said, "The Bogleheads give me the strength to carry on."


When I arrived at the Bogleheads 2018 Conference, for the wine & cheese reception, (the evening before Mr. Bogle was scheduled to speak,) I was visiting with some friends who I'd met over the years from previous conferences.

Dr. Bill Bernstein asked, "Did you hear about Jack?"
"No," I replied
"He's having issues with his heart," Dr. Bernstein said.
I replied, "Oh no, is he okay? Will he be able to attend tomorrow?"
"We don't know yet," Dr. Bernstein replied.

It was a long night worrying and wondering if Mr. Bogle would be okay. The next morning about 30 minutes before Mr. Bogle was to speak, I was walking from my room in the hotel through the lobby, and rounded the hall that leads to the banquet room.

And there he was! - making his way slowly towards the room he was to speak in. I hurried to catch up with him, reached him, and gave him a hug, and said, "We were all so worried, and glad you're here!"
Without missing a beat he replied, "Kathleen how nice to see you. I wouldn't miss this."

Then he made his way to an adjacent room and was met by his wonderful assistant, Michael Nolan. He sat down, and began putting the finishing touches on the speech he would shortly be giving to his Bogleheads. Mr. Bogle soon let us know, he had his heart shocked back into a normal rhythm while in the hospital a few short hours before he arrived to give the speech he was so committed to giving. And boy was it a great speech, which included speaking about, "Kindness and Humanity.

The first time I met Mr. Bogle was at the 2nd National BH Conference, back in 2001. Instead of a handshake, he greeted me with a hug. I was pleasantly amazed by this great man welcoming me in such a warm way that exhibited, "Kindness and Humanity." He never changed.

I reflect back now, on what was to be my last meeting with Mr. Bogle, though at the time I did not know this. Through his sheer will alone, when his body was failing, he still made it to our Bogleheads meeting. That's how much he loved his Bogleheads.

One time, several years back, Mr. Bogle could not attend his Bogleheads meeting because he was in the hospital with a serious infection called, "Listeria," that most people don't survive. What a surprise to hear his strong voice come over the speakers in our meeting room. Being Mr. Bogle, he found a way to have a telephone conference with all his Bogleheads. To say people were crying tears of joy to hear him, and know he was okay, would be understating things.

Needless to say, Mr. Bogle was a force we never thought would end. We wanted him to be with us forever. His mentor, Walter Morgan lived to be 100 years old. Secretly, deep down, I think we all thought he'd be with us until he was 101 years old.

I believe Mr. Bogle wants us to go on, "Fighting the good fight," spreading his word about the advantages of low cost, well diversified index fund investing. We can do this by telling all those who will listen. Telling our children, and grandchildren, and so on, can keep his message alive in perpetuity.

I will close with a story I wrote, soon after I met Mr. Bogle, at the 2nd Bogleheads Conference back in September 2001. I was both thrilled and surprised that my story made it to the, "Letters to the Editor," in, "Money Magazine," in the November 2001 Issue, page 25.

"Seventeen years ago my dad taught me to sail our 19-foot Lightning sailboat. I was enjoying my turn at the tiller, when suddenly he yelled, "Man Overboard Drill!, " and jumped into the water. I continued on the course we set for a seconds longer, collecting my wits. Then I came about and picked him up, all by myself! My dad saw my potential before I did. He gave me the knowledge I would need to carry on without him. Mr. Bogle does this every day for many people, through his books, speeches and writings. He gives people the knowledge to help themselves, which is very empowering."

I e-mailed Mr. Bogle this story, soon after my dad (also named Jack), died. He emailed me back, "This is a way to keep his memory alive, by sharing your stories about him."

I want to do the same for Mr. Bogle. Please let's take time to post stories that will keep Mr. Bogle's memory alive, with your favorite story/stories about him, and spread the word further about his, "Kindness and Humanity."

Respectfully Submitted,

Kathleen Ryan
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by NMBob »

he has spent most of the past decade on fox business shows during the panel stock picks at the end saying ...."VTI"

He did have some website some time ago where as best I recalled, pushed having more healthcare, value stocks, small caps than just straight total market though. Dont think there is a clear record of retraction as you indicate, he just states the new I guess.

that book is 2004, Let's try 2012 comments.
http://www.marketriders.com/investing/b ... -superior/

“You know something, it’s interesting, the data about how much better you do just buying the indexes as compared to trying to pick stocks has only become really overwhelming in about the last 20 or 30 years,” he said.

“So, when I first got out of school and had a few dollars to invest, that data was not yet overwhelming. It is now overwhelming and just blows away any contradictory data.”

Don't try to pick the stocks...
"Unless your name is Buffett…
Instead, buy the whole market using exchange-traded funds, Stein said, suggesting the SPDR S&P 500 (SPY) and related SPDR sector funds, the SPDR Dow Jones Industrial Average ETF (DIA) and the Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF (VTI)."
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Re: Mr. Bogle's Life and Legacy-"Kindness and Humanity"

Post by catdude »

Kathleen, thank you so much for your wonderful tribute to Mr. Bogle. Yes, he loved his Bogleheads, and we loved him back. I hope other folks will share their memories of meeting him.
catdude | | All generalizations are false, including this one.
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Re: Mr. Bogle's Life and Legacy-"Kindness and Humanity"

Post by Kathleen Ryan »

Thank you catdude,

for writing.

For sure Mr. Bogle knew his Bogleheads loved him. :happy I'm hopeful other people will share their memories about him also.
Best wishes, | Kathleen
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Re: [Tributes to Jack Bogle]

Post by LadyGeek »

It is understandable that everyone (including myself) would like to shout out an individual tribute to Jack.

Unfortunately, it's not practical to do so. We need to have a single thread; I have already combined several.

Please use this thread for tributes to Jack.

This thread is now visible at the top of every forum.
larryswedroe wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:31 am https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... rner/bogle

BTW, I love Rick's idea to call it the Bogle rule
Best wishes
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Re: Who Will Speak for US?

Post by Lynette »

livesoft wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:59 am While folks here may not like it, Fidelity has picked up many of the tenets expressed by Jack Bogle and also Bogleheads.org. Here is something out this week from Fidelity:

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/inv ... -investors

The six habits are
:
Develop a long-term plan—and stick with it
Be a supersaver
Stick with your plan, despite volatility [even "Stay the course" is used!]
Be diversified
Consider low-fee investment products that offer good value
Focus on generating after-tax returns
From the tributes in Bloomberg, this part stood out to me:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... jack-bogle

Abby Johnson, chief executive officer at Fidelity Investments
“Jack Bogle was an icon in the mutual fund industry, he more or less singlehandedly popularized index funds. Jack was always a tough competitor of ours and kept us on our toes, and for that I am grateful. All of us at Fidelity extend our condolences to his family.”
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Re: [Tributes to Jack Bogle]

Post by harmoniousmonk »

From Barry Ritholtz, with a quote from a boglehead

https://ritholtz.com/2019/01/rip-jack-bogle/
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Re: [Tributes to Jack Bogle]

Post by harmoniousmonk »

More from Ritholtz

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... ond-riches

But the most remarkable thing about Bogle is that he created billions — and perhaps trillions — of dollars in value for others and kept relatively little of it for himself. That stands in sharp contrast to the unabashed accumulation of riches among corporations, even as wealth inequality rises to alarming levels. Bogle’s life is a reminder that business leaders have the power, indeed the responsibility, to shrink the wealth divide between their companies and the workers and consumers who sustain them.
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by F150HD »

"Don't look for the needle in the haystack. Just buy the haystack."

RIP Mr. Bogle
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by JoMoney »

Neil Cavuto had a nice homage video "Remembering John Bogle" and his appearances on his show over the years
https://video.foxnews.com/v/59907101150 ... show-clips
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by lorneabramson »

"If a statue is ever erected to honor the person who has done the most for American investors, the hands-down choice should be Jack Bogle."

Warren Buffett, 2016 Berkshire Hathaway annual shareholder letter
Last edited by lorneabramson on Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by LFKB »

"Jack did more for American investors as a whole than any individual I've known. A lot of Wall Street is devoted to charging a lot for nothing. He charged nothing to accomplish a huge amount."

Warren Buffett
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by S&L1940 »

FRANK2009 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:41 am "In investing, you get what you don't pay for"
Thank you for all you've done for all the average investors out there. For making the world a better place.
Rest in Peace...
hard to pick out the definitive Jack Bogle quote, the above works well.

The NY Times did a nice piece on Mr. Bogle, check out the photo of Mr. B. at a younger age
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/obit ... -dead.html

Nice comparison between the assets of Mr. B. ~ $80 million as opposed to the owner of Fidelity who tops out over ~ $2 billion. Kind of shows the difference in the goals of Vanguard, for the individual investor, and Fidelity, enrichment of management.

Edited once by S&L
Last edited by S&L1940 on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Favorite quotes from Jack Bogle...an amazing man

Post by FrugalInvestor »

Pete12 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:33 am "Don't do something... just stand there!"
This is the one I use and repeat to myself most often.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by chiero »

It can be argued that Jack Bogle did more to help the small investor than anyone who ever walked the Earth.
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by LadyGeek »

FrugalInvestor wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:21 pm
Pete12 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:33 am "Don't do something... just stand there!"
This is the one I use and repeat to myself most often.
Same here.

Right now, all I can think of is "Press on, regardless". His death is starting to sink in and that phrase is what's keeping me going.

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At the 2018 Bogleheads Conference in October, I thought Jack looked better than he did at the previous year's conference. I've been meeting Jack every year since I started attending in 2010.

When the time came for the book signing portion of the conference, I was at a table demonstrating the wiki. Jack walked by my table, stopped, and said "You're doing a great job (LadyGeek)" - he used my real name. He actually stopped to talk to me. Wow.

Never mind that my name was on a placard on the table, I didn't care. He stopped. He took the time to say hi. I think he recognized I was the forum site admin and knew how much work I was doing.

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In one of the earlier conference years, attendees had the opportunity to have lunch with one of the conference presenters. Each table got assigned a different person. Guess who I sat next to? Jack Bogle. Not knowing what to say, I asked him, "So, how about those Phillies?" :) I don't remember his exact answer, but I don't think he was into sports all that much. He was a Phillies fan, though.

* Referring to the Philadelphia Phillies baseball team.
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Taylor Larimore
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Morningstar's Tribute to Jack Bogle

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

Morningstar has posted their own tributes to Jack Bogle:

https://www.morningstar.com/videos/9082 ... bogle.html

Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
champion_ham
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by champion_ham »

RIP, Mr. Bogle, from an ordinary investor who will be forever grateful for you and your service. Godspeed, sir.
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Re: Morningstar's Tribute to Jack Bogle

Post by LadyGeek »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:44 pm Bogleheads:

Morningstar has posted their own tributes to Jack Bogle:

https://www.morningstar.com/videos/9082 ... bogle.html

Taylor
Christine Benz is understating how much she enjoyed interviewing, and speaking with, Jack during the annual Bogleheads Conferences. I was at those conferences and could tell that both she and Jack were having a fun time being together.
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Re: Tributes to Jack Bogle

Post by booch221 »

Nice article here from Bloomberg:
"In a sea of superlatives, one number stands above all others: $1 trillion. That is an estimate of how much money John Bogle, who died Wednesday at age 89, has saved investors since he started Vanguard Group more than 43 years ago."
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... the-better

Does anyone know what the expense ratio of the first S&P 500 index fund was when Jack Bogle created it in 1976?
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