Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

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winterescape
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Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by winterescape » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:36 pm

We are likely moving our small company 401k plan to Vanguard. They have suggested offering the following funds in the plan. I see everything I want in this list except for one. What do fellow Bogleheads see missing from the proposed list of funds offered?
Thanks in advance for any list refinement suggestions and very happy holidays to all...

Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2065 VSXFX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2060 VILVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2055 VIVLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2050 VTRLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2045 VITLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2040 VIRSX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2035 VITFX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2030 VTTWX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2025 VRIVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2020 VITWX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2015 VITVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement Income VITRX
Vanguard Federal Money Market Inv VMFXX
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Adm VBIAX
Vanguard Wellesley Income Adm VWIAX
Vanguard STAR Inv VGSTX
Vanguard Inflation-Protected Sec Adm VAIPX
Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Adm VBTLX
Vanguard Core Bond Adm VCOBX
Vanguard Total Intl Bond Index Adm VTABX
Vanguard Windsor II Adm VWNAX
Vanguard Total Stock Mkt Index Adm VTSAX
Vanguard 500 Index Adm VFIAX
Vanguard U.S. Growth Adm VWUAX
Vanguard Extended Mkt Index Adm VEXAX
Vanguard Explorer Value Inv VEVFX
Vanguard Small Cap Index Adm VSMAX
Vanguard Explorer Adm VEXRX
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Index Adm VTIAX
Vanguard International Growth Adm VWILX
Vanguard International Value Inv VTRIX
Vanguard Emerging Mkts Select Stock Inv VMMSX

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:47 pm

I would push strongly for Long Term Treasuries (VUSUX), Global Minimum Volatility (VMNVX) and PRIMECAP (VPMAX).

retire2022
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by retire2022 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:27 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:47 pm
I would push strongly for Long Term Treasuries (VUSUX), Global Minimum Volatility (VMNVX) and PRIMECAP (VPMAX).
I second Hedgefundie

also these closed funds

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... view/vhcax
Mid Cap fund by PrimeCap folks

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... file/VDIGX
Vanguard Dividend Growth

or this Vanguard Strategic Equity fund (small cap-Mid Cap actively managed fund, BHs may not like my suggestion as it is active

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... file/VSEQX

dbr
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by dbr » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:30 pm

How about a list of funds not in the list that Vanguard would include if asked so we can pick.

I suspect long term bonds would be one obvious one, as mentioned.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:41 pm

Small cap value index and/or Large cap value index.

The explorer value and international value are mentioned but those aren't index funds, right?
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

Dontridetheindexdown
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by Dontridetheindexdown » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:19 pm

VBTLX and VTSAX are the only 2 funds you really need.

As the apocryphal sage Hillel is reputed to have said, "All the rest is commentary."

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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by Taylor Larimore » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:40 pm

winterescape wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:36 pm
We are likely moving our small company 401k plan to Vanguard. They have suggested offering the following funds in the plan. I see everything I want in this list except for one. What do fellow Bogleheads see missing from the proposed list of funds offered?
Thanks in advance for any list refinement suggestions and very happy holidays to all...

Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2065 VSXFX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2060 VILVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2055 VIVLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2050 VTRLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2045 VITLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2040 VIRSX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2035 VITFX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2030 VTTWX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2025 VRIVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2020 VITWX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2015 VITVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement Income VITRX
Vanguard Federal Money Market Inv VMFXX
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Adm VBIAX
Vanguard Wellesley Income Adm VWIAX
Vanguard STAR Inv VGSTX
Vanguard Inflation-Protected Sec Adm VAIPX
Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Adm VBTLX
Vanguard Core Bond Adm VCOBX
Vanguard Total Intl Bond Index Adm VTABX
Vanguard Windsor II Adm VWNAX
Vanguard Total Stock Mkt Index Adm VTSAX
Vanguard 500 Index Adm VFIAX
Vanguard U.S. Growth Adm VWUAX
Vanguard Extended Mkt Index Adm VEXAX
Vanguard Explorer Value Inv VEVFX
Vanguard Small Cap Index Adm VSMAX
Vanguard Explorer Adm VEXRX
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Index Adm VTIAX
Vanguard International Growth Adm VWILX
Vanguard International Value Inv VTRIX
Vanguard Emerging Mkts Select Stock Inv VMMSX
Winterescape:

Assuming administrative expenses are contained, this may be the best 401k plan I have seen.

My only suggestion would be to eliminate funds, not add funds. Most 401k plan participants lack knowledge about the advantages of broad market index funds and are more likely to pick "hot" sector funds on the basis of current performance which is nearly always a mistake.

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

dbr
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by dbr » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:48 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:40 pm


My only suggestion would be to eliminate funds, not add funds. Most 401k plan participants lack knowledge about the advantages of broad market index funds and are more likely to pick "hot" sector funds on the basis of current performance which is nearly always a mistake.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Aside from considering what could be added I was thinking of saying the same thing. Also, many 401k plans offer a directed brokerage option to allow participants to buy almost anything at a selected broker. If you offer a sensible basic array of funds and the option to buy whatever is available from Vanguard brokerage that answers the question. The only issue is cost to the investor for trading, and that can be managed easily.

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BoglePaul
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by BoglePaul » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:54 am

All three primecap funds are a must!

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winterescape
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by winterescape » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:57 pm

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

WRT fewer options is better, I too believe that, and might have even posted some articles about studies that showed higher 401k participation with fewer choices way back. Practically speaking for our 401k, we have the simple target retirement funds, and we also have the brokerage window option, but that costs participants $50/year, so I was trying to offer all the options we could of Vanguard "traditional" funds without incurring any additional participant cost.

columbia
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by columbia » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:05 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:40 pm
winterescape wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:36 pm
We are likely moving our small company 401k plan to Vanguard. They have suggested offering the following funds in the plan. I see everything I want in this list except for one. What do fellow Bogleheads see missing from the proposed list of funds offered?
Thanks in advance for any list refinement suggestions and very happy holidays to all...

Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2065 VSXFX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2060 VILVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2055 VIVLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2050 VTRLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2045 VITLX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2040 VIRSX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2035 VITFX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2030 VTTWX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2025 VRIVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2020 VITWX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement 2015 VITVX
Vanguard Instl Target Retirement Income VITRX
Vanguard Federal Money Market Inv VMFXX
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Adm VBIAX
Vanguard Wellesley Income Adm VWIAX
Vanguard STAR Inv VGSTX
Vanguard Inflation-Protected Sec Adm VAIPX
Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Adm VBTLX
Vanguard Core Bond Adm VCOBX
Vanguard Total Intl Bond Index Adm VTABX
Vanguard Windsor II Adm VWNAX
Vanguard Total Stock Mkt Index Adm VTSAX
Vanguard 500 Index Adm VFIAX
Vanguard U.S. Growth Adm VWUAX
Vanguard Extended Mkt Index Adm VEXAX
Vanguard Explorer Value Inv VEVFX
Vanguard Small Cap Index Adm VSMAX
Vanguard Explorer Adm VEXRX
Vanguard Total Intl Stock Index Adm VTIAX
Vanguard International Growth Adm VWILX
Vanguard International Value Inv VTRIX
Vanguard Emerging Mkts Select Stock Inv VMMSX
Winterescape:

Assuming administrative expenses are contained, this may be the best 401k plan I have seen.

My only suggestion would be to eliminate funds, not add funds. Most 401k plan participants lack knowledge about the advantages of broad market index funds and are more likely to pick "hot" sector funds on the basis of current performance which is nearly always a mistake.

Best wishes.
Taylor

Yes, limiting funds syncs up with behavioral economics ideas about how people make better choices, when presented with fewer options.

I know that to be true of me.

fennewaldaj
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by fennewaldaj » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:51 am

Curious does Vanguard offer brokerage options in its 401ks like Fidelity does? I think the best way to do things is to only include only a few funds in the main plan but give access to a brokerage account for those that want specialized things like long treasuries, small value, international small, high yield bonds, ect.

dbr
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by dbr » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:19 am

fennewaldaj wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:51 am
Curious does Vanguard offer brokerage options in its 401ks like Fidelity does? I think the best way to do things is to only include only a few funds in the main plan but give access to a brokerage account for those that want specialized things like long treasuries, small value, international small, high yield bonds, ect.
I agree -- my idea also.

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rob
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by rob » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:29 am

Those target funds probably come as a set... but I don't see much point in that level of granularity and for simplicity would cut every second out or similar. Might also give you some slots for other options.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien

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winterescape
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by winterescape » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am

dbr wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:19 am
fennewaldaj wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:51 am
Curious does Vanguard offer brokerage options in its 401ks like Fidelity does? I think the best way to do things is to only include only a few funds in the main plan but give access to a brokerage account for those that want specialized things like long treasuries, small value, international small, high yield bonds, ect.
I agree -- my idea also.
yes they do but then each participant pays for the "brokerage window" option, trying to minimize expenses and have "Traditional Mutual Funds" that cover most all desired options

fennewaldaj
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by fennewaldaj » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:39 pm

winterescape wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:57 pm
Thanks everyone for the feedback!

WRT fewer options is better, I too believe that, and might have even posted some articles about studies that showed higher 401k participation with fewer choices way back. Practically speaking for our 401k, we have the simple target retirement funds, and we also have the brokerage window option, but that costs participants $50/year, so I was trying to offer all the options we could of Vanguard "traditional" funds without incurring any additional participant cost.
Is there a way to set up the layout so that core funds like total US, Total international, total bond of clearly indicated and they the more exotic options like small cap value international small ect are clearly delineated as such?

MotoTrojan
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by MotoTrojan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:37 am

Personally I’d like a small value fund. Broadly I agree this is too many funds for most people to handle appropriately.

MotoTrojan
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by MotoTrojan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:40 am

fennewaldaj wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:39 pm
winterescape wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:57 pm
Thanks everyone for the feedback!

WRT fewer options is better, I too believe that, and might have even posted some articles about studies that showed higher 401k participation with fewer choices way back. Practically speaking for our 401k, we have the simple target retirement funds, and we also have the brokerage window option, but that costs participants $50/year, so I was trying to offer all the options we could of Vanguard "traditional" funds without incurring any additional participant cost.
Is there a way to set up the layout so that core funds like total US, Total international, total bond of clearly indicated and they the more exotic options like small cap value international small ect are clearly delineated as such?
My company uses Guideline and it’ll force you into their self-balancing allocations (basically a Target fund with REIT tilt) based on your risk survey and age, unless you opt to design your own portfolio, which requires you to confirm you are an “expert investor”.

All the necessary VG funds are included at cost plus a few DFA options that some may appreciate.

fennewaldaj
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by fennewaldaj » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:51 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:40 am
fennewaldaj wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:39 pm
winterescape wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:57 pm
Thanks everyone for the feedback!

WRT fewer options is better, I too believe that, and might have even posted some articles about studies that showed higher 401k participation with fewer choices way back. Practically speaking for our 401k, we have the simple target retirement funds, and we also have the brokerage window option, but that costs participants $50/year, so I was trying to offer all the options we could of Vanguard "traditional" funds without incurring any additional participant cost.
Is there a way to set up the layout so that core funds like total US, Total international, total bond of clearly indicated and they the more exotic options like small cap value international small ect are clearly delineated as such?
My company uses Guideline and it’ll force you into their self-balancing allocations (basically a Target fund with REIT tilt) based on your risk survey and age, unless you opt to design your own portfolio, which requires you to confirm you are an “expert investor”.

All the necessary VG funds are included at cost plus a few DFA options that some may appreciate.
That seems reasonable. Without stuff like this people do dumb stuff like equal weight all the choices (perhaps even including the entire target date series)

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hoppy08520
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Re: Best Vanguard funds to include in a Vanguard 401k

Post by hoppy08520 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:28 pm

VFSVX - Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Small Capital Index Fund Investor Shares

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