dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

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protagonist
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dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:15 pm

I suffer from dry eyes, and I need reading glasses (approx.+2.5-3.0 strength).

I am thinking of buying a Lenovo X1 Yoga laptop (14" display, 3d Gen.), which is offered in 3 display configurations:
1. FHD (1920 x 1080), 270 nits
2. WQHD (2560 x 1440), 270 nits
3. HDR WQHD (2560 x 1440), 500 nits with "Dolby vision"

By most accounts #3 is the "most exciting", but I assume it would be harder on my eyes.

Yet without magnification #2 would have much too small text....I would have to use more magnification (scaling factor) than #1.

Which would be easier on my eyes (less eye strain) when reading documents, web browsing, etc? #1 with less magnification or #2 with more magnification (ultimately resulting in the same size text)? Or would it make no difference? #2 is slightly more expensive than #1.

And how about when watching movies or videos?

Thanks.
Last edited by protagonist on Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

quantAndHold
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by quantAndHold » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:27 pm

Do you have a desk that you could put a large monitor on? Then it wouldn’t matter which laptop you got.

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protagonist
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:33 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:27 pm
Do you have a desk that you could put a large monitor on? Then it wouldn’t matter which laptop you got.
Yes, but from time to time I will be using the laptop without an external monitor.
Last edited by protagonist on Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

onourway
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by onourway » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:34 pm

If all of those options have Lenovo's famous mirror-reflective glass coating, I'd say 'none of the above' and look for another model, say the X1 Carbon, with a matte screen.

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protagonist
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:41 pm

onourway wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:34 pm
If all of those options have Lenovo's famous mirror-reflective glass coating, I'd say 'none of the above' and look for another model, say the X1 Carbon, with a matte screen.
Good thought....I think , however, that the X1 Yoga and X1 Carbon have essentially the same screen. It is described as "non-reflective" which I assume means matte.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by FireSekr » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:50 pm

Have you tried glasses with blue light blocker? I have a coating on my normal glasses that reduces blue light and that has been a big help in reducing computer induced eye strain

onourway
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by onourway » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:59 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:41 pm
onourway wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:34 pm
If all of those options have Lenovo's famous mirror-reflective glass coating, I'd say 'none of the above' and look for another model, say the X1 Carbon, with a matte screen.
Good thought....I think , however, that the X1 Yoga and X1 Carbon have essentially the same screen. It is described as "non-reflective" which I assume means matte.
I believe all options on the X1 Yoga have a glossy finish. On the X1 Carbon the matte options are all listed as 'anti-glare'. The top-line HDR screen is like looking at a mirror.

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TinyElvis
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by TinyElvis » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:01 pm

I use f.lux to help control eye-strain and blue-light. It's a free download and works great (better than native apps in Win 10 and Apple IMHO).

https://justgetflux.com/

"f.lux.. makes the color of your computer's display adapt to the time of day, warm at night and like sunlight during the day."

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by tea_pirate » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:04 pm

I have found sitting further away from the screen reduces eye strain. Your eyes are ultimately focused on the screen itself. To that end I would get the largest display practical, with the highest resolution affordable to increase clarity. As you noted one can zoom as necessary to adjust.

I would also recommend the free program f.lux, it adjusts your display's color temperature based on the time of day. At sunset the display changes to a warmer color temperature which has dramatically helped reduce eye strain for me.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by magneto » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm

There was a thread about the more modern laptops using high frequency on/off to adjust the apparent brightness (pulse width modulation), rather than a 'dimmer'. The high frequency can be disturbing to some viewers and somewhere there is a website dedicated to the issue.
Otherwise good info above.
Last edited by magneto on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by Katietsu » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:44 pm

I am about to look into a laptop purchase myself. I made an impulse purchase of a different Yoga whose screen was described as anti-glare. I believe it may have been your option #1. In my opinion, it could have been used as a mirror. The screen reflectivity was one of the reasons that I returned it.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by nisiprius » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:04 pm

Things like eyestrain are very subjective, you just have to judge for yourself and buy gear with return privileges.

One thing I'll say is that reflections on a screen are deadly, just deadly. It's much better now with flat screens, but even the slightest reflection is bad, and the thing is that you may not even be aware of it. Your first job, if screens bother your eyes, is to do whatever you have to do in the way of arranging your equipment and your surroundings until you see no reflections on the screen. You may think "oh, it's just a little reflection, it's not bad," but it can get to you and cause eyestrain without your even knowing it.

I won't go so far as to say "wear a black shirt when you are sitting in front of the computer," but do pay close attention to your surroundings.

Two other details: obviously, you need to have glasses that work at the distance you choose to put your screen at... or put your screen at the distance that is right in the middle of the "sweet spot" for which the glasses are designed. Second, you need to stand up for whatever is the way you position your screen. If you use a laptop a lot, when you go to get your eyes refracted, bring it with you and actually use it, let the optometrist measure the distance and so on.
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by Doom&Gloom » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:05 pm

Using dark mode or dark themes with some browsers and/or websites helps me a lot.

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Elsebet
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by Elsebet » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:19 pm

I have terribly dry eyes when using computers too, unfortunately it's my job (IT) so I can't reduce screen time by much. I use a lot of drops and have a small humidifier near my screen, but haven't thought of coatings on my glasses or doing anything with my monitors. I don't see any glare on my monitors currently. Any other suggestions people have tried? I do have an appt. with my eye doctor in January and hope to address it again.
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:54 pm

OP here.

I appreciate all the comments above, some of which are quite helpful.

That said, I would like to get back on track, as the answer to my question will dictate which display to buy and I would like to make the purchase ASAP (the sale will not last).

The information on the internet regarding this is very confusing and at times conflicting.

If anybody can tell me which would be easier on my eyes....lower resolution (1920 x 1080), or higher resolution (2560 x 1440) zoomed to result in similar size text as would be on the lower resolution display (or if it would make no difference), please let me know.

I understand that higher resolution results in less blurriness and clearer text due to higher pixel density. What I don't understand is whether you lose that advantage when you zoom in to make small text readable (because images of the same size wind up having the same pixel density, whether zoomed or not). I also don't know what the threshold of resolution is below which it makes no difference because the eye cannot resolve the difference anyway. I suspect that videos would look better at higher resolution, but again, I don't know if that would be noticeable.
Last edited by protagonist on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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protagonist
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:59 pm

Elsebet wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:19 pm
I have terribly dry eyes when using computers too, unfortunately it's my job (IT) so I can't reduce screen time by much. I use a lot of drops and have a small humidifier near my screen, but haven't thought of coatings on my glasses or doing anything with my monitors. I don't see any glare on my monitors currently. Any other suggestions people have tried? I do have an appt. with my eye doctor in January and hope to address it again.
One thing that helps me a lot, Elsebet, is using a dark background (inverting white and black). You can find that in "Themes" in Control Panel in Windows. Also, if you use Chrome, you can add a dark background with an extension- the two that work best for me are Dark Reader and Deluminate. I generally prefer Deluminate but it sometimes causes screen flicker, in which case I use Dark Reader.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by bryanm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:16 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:54 pm
If anybody can tell me which would be easier on my eyes....lower resolution (1920 x 1080), or higher resolution (2560 x 1440) zoomed to result in similar size text as would be on the lower resolution display (or if it would make no difference), please let me know.

I understand that higher resolution results in less blurriness and clearer text due to higher pixel density. What I don't understand is whether you lose that advantage when you zoom in to make small text readable (because images of the same size wind up having the same pixel density, whether zoomed or not). I also don't know what the threshold of resolution is below which it makes no difference because the eye cannot resolve the difference anyway. I suspect that videos would look better at higher resolution, but again, I don't know if that would be noticeable.
You shouldn't lose the advantage of a high resolution display when you zoom in. Assuming Windows 10 or OSX (probably most Linux flavors too), most text or UI elements these days is not an image that gets "zoomed in." It's a crisp line the computer knows how to draw regardless of resolution. When you zoom in images they might get less crisp, but I doubt that is what results in your eye strain.

As to whether you can actually resolve the difference, I would say most people probably can, but also might not care that much. It comes down more to "pixels per inch" (PPI) than resolution (where PPI is calculated by a combination of resolution and screen size). As a test, go to an Apple store and look at their "Retina" displays versus non-Retina. If you can tell a difference there, you probably can on other high PPI displays.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by 02nz » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:22 pm

A higher-resolution display with more scaling will, with the right software, be easier to read. This doesn't include legacy apps that don't deal well with Windows' scaling, which will tend to be blurry (and to be fair Windows 10's display scaling has gotten much better.) But most newer apps - modern browsers and Office apps - scale just fine, and on a higher-resolution display that should be slightly easier to read. I agree with others though that other factors (humidity, glare, etc.) may be a bigger influence on eyestrain than this, and that an external monitor (with matte not reflective coating - I like my Dell UltraSharp U2415) is worth considering.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Thank you, Bryann and 02nz! Your answers were very helpful. The hi-res screen cost differential is relatively small, so I think I will go for it.

But that leads me to another question:

I called Lenovo, and the poster above who stated that the screen is not matte is correct. They use some kind of antireflective coating which they claim gets rid of most of the problem but it is still not pure matte as with the X1 Carbon.

I will use the computer more than 90% of the time indoors with an external monitor.

Online reviewers rave about the HDR XQHD screen which is about an additional $100. over the FHD with discounts. The computer is 35% off (plus another 12% rebate from ebates). I assume that , since it has the same "antireflective coating", if I reduce the brightness on the HDR screen to the same level as the FHD it would not cause more eye strain....so I think I may try that configuration. I would get the X1 Carbon, but the convertible option is more important to me than the display. If it does not work for me I could always return it for the X1 Carbon.

Thoughts?

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by onourway » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:15 pm

That HDR screen has excellent brightness and beautiful colors, but it is very reflective. Note that the easiest way to minimize the distraction of the reflections is to...turn up the brightness. If you will be using it primarily in a fixed location indoors where you will not have lighting behind you or overhead, it may be fine. I don’t believe there are many, if any, matte touch screens out there.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:32 pm

onourway wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:15 pm
That HDR screen has excellent brightness and beautiful colors, but it is very reflective. Note that the easiest way to minimize the distraction of the reflections is to...turn up the brightness. If you will be using it primarily in a fixed location indoors where you will not have lighting behind you or overhead, it may be fine. I don’t believe there are many, if any, matte touch screens out there.
Thanks, onourway.
I ordered it....do you think it would be wise to downgrade to XQHD without HDR? You are making me think I made a mistake- I got wowed by the reviews. They describe it as "antireflective" and the phone rep said it would be the same as without HDR, but (oddly since I have not met either of you), I trust you more than I trust him.
If I maintain a black background will that solve the problem?
I suppose I have 30 days to return the computer if it doesn't work out.

By the way, if anybody wants to buy an X or T laptop from Lenovo, for at least today:
Ebates is offering 12% cash rebate, and they have a coupon option offering an additional 35% off list. So ultimately you will wind up paying just over half of the list price. Go to ebates.com, sign up, and click on the appropriate link.
To get the additional 35% off, after you configure your machine, when the computer arrives in your cart (not before), you need to type the coupon code "THINK12DAYS". This will override whatever discount code is already in the system (in my case it provided almost an additional $100 off their listed code). You can only use one code.
I don't know if this deal will be available tomorrow....I suspect something similar might if not the same.
The X1 Yoga configured with an 8th gen. i5 processor and the upgraded HDR monitor came to about $1200 before tax and not including 12% rebate. Shipping is free. An X1 Carbon would probably be about $150 less with similar configuration- probably in the $900s for base model before rebate.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by 02nz » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:38 pm

It's also worth mentioning that not all glossy screens are equally reflective. I just switched from a Dell Latitude 5290 2-in-1 (Surface Pro clone) to a Surface Pro 6. Both screens are "glossy" but the difference in glare is remarkable; the Surface Pro's display suppresses glare so well that it's basically a non-issue, whereas the Dell's is much more like a mirror. Apple iOS devices also generally have a very good anti-reflective coating, despite the glossy screen.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by Nummerkins » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:06 pm

You should get the higher resolution screen. In Windows you can set a scaling factor like 125% or 150%. The higher resolution you have the better this will work/look.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by onourway » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:21 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:32 pm
Thanks, onourway.
I ordered it....do you think it would be wise to downgrade to XQHD without HDR? You are making me think I made a mistake- I got wowed by the reviews. They describe it as "antireflective" and the phone rep said it would be the same as without HDR, but (oddly since I have not met either of you), I trust you more than I trust him.
If I maintain a black background will that solve the problem?
I suppose I have 30 days to return the computer if it doesn't work out.
I don’t know for sure whether all those models are the same level of reflectivity, but given that they are all likely similar, I think choosing the best screen option is always a good bet. Hopefully Lenovo addresses this issue soon; it has been a problem with their best screens for some time. Ultimately you will have to decide for yourself how much it bothers you and that will probably come down in large part to the location it is used in.

FWIW, dark backgrounds are worse for reflections than light ones. I hope that it works out well for you. The X1 series are very nice devices and you got a great price!

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:37 pm

onourway wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:21 pm
protagonist wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:32 pm
Thanks, onourway.
I ordered it....do you think it would be wise to downgrade to XQHD without HDR? You are making me think I made a mistake- I got wowed by the reviews. They describe it as "antireflective" and the phone rep said it would be the same as without HDR, but (oddly since I have not met either of you), I trust you more than I trust him.
If I maintain a black background will that solve the problem?
I suppose I have 30 days to return the computer if it doesn't work out.
I don’t know for sure whether all those models are the same level of reflectivity, but given that they are all likely similar, I think choosing the best screen option is always a good bet. Hopefully Lenovo addresses this issue soon; it has been a problem with their best screens for some time. Ultimately you will have to decide for yourself how much it bothers you and that will probably come down in large part to the location it is used in.

FWIW, dark backgrounds are worse for reflections than light ones. I hope that it works out well for you. The X1 series are very nice devices and you got a great price!

Thanks! I will leave it disconnected to my external monitor for the first week or two to see how it works out, in case I need to return it.

By the way, here is the price breakdown ordering today with my configuration and the discounts I described applied, in case anybody else is interested. The 12% rebate from ebates is not included in the final price. I also paid $15 for one year onsite service included in the tax breakdown- I figure if it is defective I will probably figure that out within the first year. Base configuration I think was about $1085 (+/-) not including tax or rebate. The deal may or may not still be available tomorrow- it started yesterday.

Item:
ThinkPad X1 Yoga (3rd Gen) Black

Status:
Received*
Qty:
1
Price:
$1,211.85
Part No: 20LDCTO1WW
Configuration Details
● 8th Generation Intel® Core™ i5-8250U Processor (1.60GHz, up to 3.40GHz with Turbo Boost, 6MB Cache)
● Windows 10 Home 64
● Windows 10 Home 64 English
● 14" HDR WQHD (2560 x 1440) IPS anti-reflective, anti-smudge, multi-touch with Dolby Vision, 500 nits
● 8 GB LPDDR3 2133MHz (Onboard)
● Integrated Intel® UHD Graphics 620
● 256 GB Solid State Drive, PCIe-NVMe OPAL2.0 M.2
● Black
● 720p HD Camera with ThinkShutter and microphone
● ThinkPad Pen Pro (Garaged)
● Backlit Keyboard - US English
● Fingerprint Reader
● Hardware dTPM
● Hardware dTPM2.0 Enabled
● 4 cell Li-Ion 54Wh
● 65W AC Adapter (2pin) - USB Type C
● Intel Dual Band 8265 Wireless AC (2 x 2) & Bluetooth 4.1 with vPro
● 14.0" WQHD (2560x1440) IPS, 500nit, Touch, WLAN, No WWAN, 720p HD Camera with shutter, Mic, Black
● Intel UHD Graphics 620
● Publication - English
● Retail Packaging
● 1 Year Depot or Carry-in
Item:
1Y Onsite service upgrade from 1Y Depot/CCI
Part No: 5WS0E97198

Status:
Received*
Qty:
1
Price:
$15.20


Sub total:
Tax :
CouponSaved:
Shipping Fees:
Total:
$1,211.85 before tax
$74.79 tax
$644.35 savings
FREE shipping
$1,286.64 total

ColoradoNewBiker
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by ColoradoNewBiker » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:50 pm

I use Felix Gray glasses https://shopfelixgray.com/ and feel helpful.

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protagonist
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:58 am

ColoradoNewBiker wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:50 pm
I use Felix Gray glasses https://shopfelixgray.com/ and feel helpful.
Interesting. And they work well for you? The lenses are high quallity? I never heard of these.

I'm guilty of not wearing corrective glasses at the computer. I suppose I should. I compensate by zooming to enlarge the font to the point where I can comfortably read.

Thanks for the recommendation.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by ColoradoNewBiker » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:22 am

Sorry for the late reply. I don't have scientific data to support but I feel my eyes less strained after wearing the glasses. I think their lens are good quality. I also use artificial tears (bought from Costco) and it helps too.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by Caduceus » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:49 pm

If you get dry eyes from computer screens, try the business/professional laptop models instead. Those come with anti-glare, anti-reflective screens. They are the only screens that I can tolerate. Looking at one of those glossy screens with sharp colors makes my eyes dry within 15 minutes. But I can read for hours and hours and hours on my business laptop.

Basically, go for functionality. Do not choose anything that looks nice in a display because those glossy screens will kill your eyesight.

There are different types of anti-glare. The best one I've seen is my friend's Thinkpad. Really easy on the eye. Zero glare. Totally matte.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:05 am

Hi Protagonist,

When I use a computer, which is a lot, I use two eye-saving measures:
1. I wear yellow tinted reading glasses that I found on Amazon.
2. I keep a timer next to my keyboard set for 25 minutes. When the timer beeps, I get up and take a walk around my apartment to clear my eyes and my mind.

Victoria
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by btenny » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:16 pm

I have a HP Spectre 14 inch laptop with a high resolution screen. It is 2560 x 1440 high resolution screen. It is a shinny touch screen. It works great when I blow up text and read stuff like Bogleheads. Plus I can also read and use two big spread sheets side by side with small text as needed. I do my account balancing this way to stay paperless. I have used it for 3 years. The only issue I have is how dirty the touch screen gets after a few days. But it wipes clean easily with a damp cloth.

As far as the screen being shinny I tilt it so it does not reflect the light. I set in a adjustable chair and adjust that height as well. When I bought this there were limited choices of small lite laptops. Plus I wanted Windows and lots of ports. Mine has a HDMI port and three USB ports and 500GB of SSD.

Good Luck.

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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by munemaker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:05 pm

protagonist wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:15 pm
I am thinking of buying a Lenovo X1 Yoga laptop (14" display, 3d Gen.), which is offered in 3 display configurations:
1. FHD (1920 x 1080), 270 nits
2. WQHD (2560 x 1440), 270 nits
3. HDR WQHD (2560 x 1440), 500 nits with "Dolby vision"
Certainly no expert on the subject, but wouldn't a larger screen be easier on your eyes than just configuration alternatives. Say a laptop with a 15" or even 17" screen?

atomicsquirrel
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by atomicsquirrel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 am

Just a suggestion..... sometimes dry eyes can be a symptom of a underlying thyroid condition. May be something to ask your dr. about.

carol-brennan
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by carol-brennan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:41 pm

If, like most people with "dry eyes," you actually suffer from meibomian gland disorder (MGD), look into the lipiflow treatment.

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protagonist
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by protagonist » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:24 pm

I find blue light filtering glasses help a lot, and especially help sleep if you are using your computer late at night.

Two solutions:
1. Check out the app fLux. https://justgetflux.com/ And for Android, iBlue. https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... f&hl=en_US Does wonders to reduce eye strain.
2. Purchase blue light filtering computer glasses. These work great, and cost only about 8 bucks on Amazon to match your prescription strength (probably slightly weaker than what you use for reading glasses): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073W ... UTF8&psc=1

The combination has really helped me.

randomguy
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Re: dry eyes- optimal laptop screen resolution to reduce eye strain

Post by randomguy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:36 pm

3. You scale the screen to the right size for you and then turn down the brightness. Nobody should be running an LCD at full brightness.

I doubt though it makes a difference. Breaks and the like will have a bigger impact

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