County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

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gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:19 pm

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:05 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:52 pm
I want to pay my 2018 taxes in 2018 like I was able to pay my 2017 taxes in 2017...
"2018 taxes" is just a label, it could just as well be "December taxes", "Q4 taxes", "Red taxes", etc. The important thing is that, according to your county, it is billed in 2019 and must be paid in 2019. Government is required to treat everyone the same and, if they make an exception for one, they must make exceptions for all (and then it is really not an exception anymore, but the rule). Bureaucrats therefore fall back on their rules and getting them to change the rules will likely take a great effort, especially if their attorney has informed them how to proceed. You will need to decide how much effort you are willing to expend getting the rules changed - attend county council meetings, write letters, make phone calls, file a lawsuit, etc.
I only have one and only 0ne question to,you...I hope you will respond. Did a citizen in Hamilton county of Ohio pay his 80% of 2018 property taxes in 2018? If they did why can’t I in Warren county of Ohio do the same?

If you say Warren county has a different sets of rules, you are absolutely right...but my question to you will be, why is it so wrong for me to ask Warren county to do the same as Hamilton county?...it’s not against the law...as a citizen I’m asking it....what’s so wrong...I’m not asking to break any IRS rules.
Last edited by gilgamesh on Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jwkde
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by jwkde » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:26 pm

So send a check in for the property taxes (not sure how you know how much) and deduct it on your 2018 income tax return. See what happens.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:38 pm

This was the reply from my treasurer...the only reason I cannot deduct this year’s property taxes is because it will cost him too much...not that it’s gamimg the system...this is part of the email I received....

————————————————- the following is part of the email I received———————————————

The escrow systems you see in other counties are those approved by the Treasurer of State, referenced above. If we wanted to get such a system implemented for Warren County, we could not expect it to be approved before the end of this month.

The question of establishing such a system regularly comes up, and is regularly re-evaluated by this office. Our decision not to establish a program is based on our analysis of a couple of factors.

First of all, the State of Ohio Treasurer’s Office requires that any escrow system must be set up completely separate from the normal tax payment system. Escrow payments must be separated from regular real estate tax payments, deposited separately, balanced daily with the County Auditor’s records, reported with statements to the taxpayer and finally credited into the regular real estate tax payment program during the regular tax collection periods.

Establishing an escrow system would require us to properly separate the payments coming in between regular tax and escrowed tax payments and properly maintain controls over two systems of accounting. We believe that, in addition to the cost of acquiring or developing a second accounting system, we would need to add at least one and possibly two additional people to the staff of 6 that currently run the office. Our current estimate is that to add a person, with fringe benefits and the supplies necessary to run the program we would increase the ongoing expense of running this office by at least $50,000 annually. That amount will, of course, increase year by year at least by the rate of inflation.

Historically, we know that counties with substantial older urban areas find that a monthly escrow system is the only way they can expect their residents to be able to keep their property tax payments current. Those counties incur the cost of an escrow system to reduce their expenses in collecting what would otherwise be delinquent taxes. By contrast, in Warren County we have almost no urban core areas and we have a delinquency rate in property tax payments of less than 1.5%. Given that over 98.5 % of our property owners are able to get their taxes paid on time, it is clear that Warren County does not face any similar situation.

We strive to keep our cost of operation low so that our citizens get the benefit of the lowest possible taxes. We are proud of the fact that with over 250,000 residents and almost 100,000 parcels of real estate, we have one of the most efficient county treasurer’s offices in the state.

While I expect to find myself in the same situation for my income taxes as you describe for yourself, I cannot justify the public expense of an escrow system that will only benefit a small percentage of the county’s citizens.

I’d like to be able to accommodate you but my understanding of my public duty and the analysis of all my predecessors in this office will not let me go there.

Sincerely,


Barney Wright
Treasurer
Warren County
406 Justice Drive
Lebanon, OH 45036

513.695.1300

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:43 pm

jwkde wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:26 pm
So send a check in for the property taxes (not sure how you know how much) and deduct it on your 2018 income tax return. See what happens.
I don’t need to know how much it is exactly...I and everyone know it’s will 100% be more than $10k...I only want to pay $10k (which the whole world know will be more...I’ll bet a trillion it will be more)...if I do, my county will send my check back...so, sorry your idea just won’t work.

basspond
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by basspond » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:13 pm

Taxing entities base the 2019 taxes on the value of property on January 1st, 2019. The entities in Texas don’t set their tax rate until October so we can’t pay our official 2019 taxes until November 2019 when they send out their tax bills.

At first I was confused with tax year, tax bill, and property evaluations. We have till Feb 2020 to pay our 2019 taxes based on year end 2018 evaluations.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:27 pm

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Spirit Rider » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:27 pm

jwkde wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:26 pm
So send a check in for the property taxes (not sure how you know how much) and deduct it on your 2018 income tax return. See what happens.
So let me see if I understand. Your approach to tax evasion to try and see if you get caught. Either the OP is in compliance with IRS rules and regulations or they are not. The goal should be to verify what is allowed and what is not. The OP is to be commended for his determination to get the right answers.

It seems pretty clear to me that based on the Attorney General's decision and the local jurisdiction's decision to not implement an escrow system. The OP simply can not do what they want without intentionally committing tax evasion.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:58 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:19 pm
rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:05 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:52 pm
I want to pay my 2018 taxes in 2018 like I was able to pay my 2017 taxes in 2017...
"2018 taxes" is just a label, it could just as well be "December taxes", "Q4 taxes", "Red taxes", etc. The important thing is that, according to your county, it is billed in 2019 and must be paid in 2019. Government is required to treat everyone the same and, if they make an exception for one, they must make exceptions for all (and then it is really not an exception anymore, but the rule). Bureaucrats therefore fall back on their rules and getting them to change the rules will likely take a great effort, especially if their attorney has informed them how to proceed. You will need to decide how much effort you are willing to expend getting the rules changed - attend county council meetings, write letters, make phone calls, file a lawsuit, etc.
I only have one and only 0ne question to,you...I hope you will respond. Did a citizen in Hamilton county of Ohio pay his 80% of 2018 property taxes in 2018? If they did why can’t I in Warren county of Ohio do the same?

If you say Warren county has a different sets of rules, you are absolutely right...but my question to you will be, why is it so wrong for me to ask Warren county to do the same as Hamilton county?...it’s not against the law...as a citizen I’m asking it....what’s so wrong...I’m not asking to break any IRS rules.
You absolutely have the right to ask your county to change their rules, especially if another county is following other rules. Your county officials may disagree, which will require you to expend time and effort to get the rules changed. Start with emails and phone calls. If that doesn't work, letters to your local state representatives would be a good next step. If that doesn't work, try your US representatives.

What would be ideal is if the county would send the tax bill in early December and have it due in early February. That way people have the option of paying for it in two different years.

Edit: The email from your treasurer was very good. It appears that if you feel strongly about this you will need to take it to the next level. The treasurer has some good arguments on his side and I expect most voters would not want their taxes raised to implement a system that benefits only a few taxpayers.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by bengal22 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:59 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:38 pm
This was the reply from my treasurer...the only reason I cannot deduct this year’s property taxes is because it will cost him too much...not that it’s gamimg the system...this is part of the email I received....

————————————————- the following is part of the email I received———————————————

The escrow systems you see in other counties are those approved by the Treasurer of State, referenced above. If we wanted to get such a system implemented for Warren County, we could not expect it to be approved before the end of this month.

The question of establishing such a system regularly comes up, and is regularly re-evaluated by this office. Our decision not to establish a program is based on our analysis of a couple of factors.

First of all, the State of Ohio Treasurer’s Office requires that any escrow system must be set up completely separate from the normal tax payment system. Escrow payments must be separated from regular real estate tax payments, deposited separately, balanced daily with the County Auditor’s records, reported with statements to the taxpayer and finally credited into the regular real estate tax payment program during the regular tax collection periods.

Establishing an escrow system would require us to properly separate the payments coming in between regular tax and escrowed tax payments and properly maintain controls over two systems of accounting. We believe that, in addition to the cost of acquiring or developing a second accounting system, we would need to add at least one and possibly two additional people to the staff of 6 that currently run the office. Our current estimate is that to add a person, with fringe benefits and the supplies necessary to run the program we would increase the ongoing expense of running this office by at least $50,000 annually. That amount will, of course, increase year by year at least by the rate of inflation.

Historically, we know that counties with substantial older urban areas find that a monthly escrow system is the only way they can expect their residents to be able to keep their property tax payments current. Those counties incur the cost of an escrow system to reduce their expenses in collecting what would otherwise be delinquent taxes. By contrast, in Warren County we have almost no urban core areas and we have a delinquency rate in property tax payments of less than 1.5%. Given that over 98.5 % of our property owners are able to get their taxes paid on time, it is clear that Warren County does not face any similar situation.

We strive to keep our cost of operation low so that our citizens get the benefit of the lowest possible taxes. We are proud of the fact that with over 250,000 residents and almost 100,000 parcels of real estate, we have one of the most efficient county treasurer’s offices in the state.

While I expect to find myself in the same situation for my income taxes as you describe for yourself, I cannot justify the public expense of an escrow system that will only benefit a small percentage of the county’s citizens.

I’d like to be able to accommodate you but my understanding of my public duty and the analysis of all my predecessors in this office will not let me go there.

Sincerely,


Barney Wright
Treasurer
Warren County
406 Justice Drive
Lebanon, OH 45036

513.695.1300
Last year, Warren County was super helpful in letting us pay the next years property tax the last week of December. They told us it was estimated but they stamped payment so we can bunch our property tax. I still plan on bunching my charitable giving and property tax by paying in December every other year. This letter is in regards to setting up an escrow system for some tax payer. I can see why this is a non starter. I plan on prepaying every other December so I can itemize every other year.
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TropikThunder
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by TropikThunder » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:07 am

bengal22 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:59 pm
Last year, Warren County was super helpful in letting us pay the next years property tax the last week of December. They told us it was estimated but they stamped payment so we can bunch our property tax. I still plan on bunching my charitable giving and property tax by paying in December every other year. This letter is in regards to setting up an escrow system for some tax payer. I can see why this is a non starter. I plan on prepaying every other December so I can itemize every other year.
Have you even read the rest of the thread? OP's entire point is that Warren County won't let him prepay in December since the bill isn't generated until January, and that allowing it in 2017 was apparently a one-time concession due to the tax law change. And per Spirit Rider's point, even if you forced them to take a payment, you can't take the deduction in 2018 if they don't bill you until 2019. If OP can't do it, I don't see how you can either.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:39 am

bengal22 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:59 pm
This letter is in regards to setting up an escrow system for some tax payer. I can see why this is a non starter. I plan on prepaying every other December so I can itemize every other year.
The letter says that without the escrow system you cannot prepay your taxes. And they don't plan to pay to set up the escrow system.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:10 am

texas lawdog wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:14 pm
They probably only allowed prepay because of the pending changes in tax law and were ovewhelmed by customers trying to do the same.
If the tax has not yet been assessed, then no amount of prepayment is going to be deductible under the revised IRS guidance.
Some counties accepted prepayments in 2017 waiting for IRS guidance and then had to turn around and refund because they were not deductible.
You can do a quick search for the updated IRS Advisory issued Dec 27, 2017.

Good Luck,
Thanks for mentioning the IRS advisory. It's interesting (to me anyway) that the date on that advisory is the same date as the email from the OH Tax Commissioner's chief counsel to the county treasurer's association that the OP has posted (the OP sent me a PM of the date/time stamped email).

Here's the relevant part of the chief counsel's email:
Chief Counsel, Ohio Department of Taxation wrote:Any prepayment system under R.C. 321.45 must receive the prior approval of the Tax Commissioner before implementation by a County Treasurer. Because said section is expressly limited to the prepayment of “current taxes” only, no payments may be accepted until after the tax lien attaches to the property on January 1 of the current year. In other words, taxes for 2018 that are normally paid in 2019 may be prepaid on or after 2018 lien attaches on January 1, 2018, and not during the remainder of 2017. The same logic applies for tax years beyond 2018.
Just to try to clarify/recap:

In my OH county, prepayments have been allowed for >15 years and the assessed amount (exact amount of tax to be due in February) was nearly always known in the last week of December. I have made and deducted such payments every two years in December since 2001. I paid my assessed taxes in 2017 on the morning of 12/27, about 6 hours before the email was sent by the chief counsel. :D

The chief counsel seems to be saying (though IANAL) that only "current" taxes can be prepaid (per ORC 321.45) via agreement between a treasurer and a taxpayer and that taxes aren't "current" until the tax lien attaches to the property on Jan 1. As best I can tell he hasn't given a legal basis for that particular definition of "current". I don't see anything in 321.45 that defines "current". This all seems a bit strange to me because if I sell my house on 12/28 I am certain that I am legally liable for taxes on my property from 1/1 - 12/28.

I haven't yet asked my county what they will do this year, but wouldn't be surprised if they are no longer accepting late December prepayments, based on the email from the chief counsel. Just like the OP's county.

My county does not have an escrow payment system like that of Hamilton County. Even if it did, I would personally be concerned that those payments would not be federally deductible, given that they would be estimated payments and therefore not deductible according to the IRS guidance you mentioned. Kenkat, are you reading this?

Based on the chief counsel email and the response from the Warren County treasurer, I think the OP has zero chance of making a federally deductible tax payment on his property this month. Given the past that may not seem fair, but as the saying goes, you can't fight city hall.

Edited to add quote from chief counsel.
Last edited by Chip on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:26 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:42 pm
I pm’d the email response I got from our treasurer. Hope it satisfies your curiosity.
Thanks, it does. Based on that email I think you have no chance of making a deductible payment this year. I suspect it will be the same in my county. The rules have apparently changed.

Even if you were able to get your county to institute an escrow system like Hamilton County I would question whether those payments would be federally deductible given that they would be payments for a tax not yet assessed. See the IRS guidance mentioned by texas lawdog that I linked in the post above.

Bmac has mentioned a couple of times that this may not be a large issue for you. Will you be itemizing deductions in 2019? Will you be in the same federal tax bracket? If both of those are true there's very little benefit to paying this year vs. 2019.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by jwkde » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:30 am

My response was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek!

The OP seems determined to make the payment despite the predominate opinion that he cannot (or should not).


Spirit Rider wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:27 pm
jwkde wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:26 pm
So send a check in for the property taxes (not sure how you know how much) and deduct it on your 2018 income tax return. See what happens.
So let me see if I understand. Your approach to tax evasion to try and see if you get caught. Either the OP is in compliance with IRS rules and regulations or they are not. The goal should be to verify what is allowed and what is not. The OP is to be commended for his determination to get the right answers.

It seems pretty clear to me that based on the Attorney General's decision and the local jurisdiction's decision to not implement an escrow system. The OP simply can not do what they want without intentionally committing tax evasion.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 am

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:10 am
Chief Counsel, Ohio Department of Taxation wrote:Any prepayment system under R.C. 321.45 must receive the prior approval of the Tax Commissioner before implementation by a County Treasurer. Because said section is expressly limited to the prepayment of “current taxes” only, no payments may be accepted until after the tax lien attaches to the property on January 1 of the current year. In other words, taxes for 2018 that are normally paid in 2019 may be prepaid on or after 2018 lien attaches on January 1, 2018, and not during the remainder of 2017. The same logic applies for tax years beyond 2018.
Is the tax lien that is attached on Jan 1, the same as the tax assessment mentioned in the IRS guidance? i.e. did the county know on Jan 1, 2018 what the tax bill was going to be that will be sent on Jan 25, 2019?

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:44 am

rkhusky wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 am
Is the tax lien that is attached on Jan 1, the same as the tax assessment mentioned in the IRS guidance? i.e. did the county know on Jan 1, 2018 what the tax bill was going to be that will be sent on Jan 25, 2019?
I believe so. It's the same amount that I have mentioned previously as being available in my county in the last week of December.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Kenkat » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:53 am

From Chip:
My county does not have an escrow payment system like that of Hamilton County. Even if it did, I would personally be concerned that those payments would not be federally deductible, given that they would be estimated payments and therefore not deductible according to the IRS guidance you mentioned. Kenkat, are you reading this?
In 2017, the full year 2018 taxes were assessed in late December 2017. Regardless of when they are paid, in advance of the assessment or not, if the amount was considered assessed in 2017 and was paid in 2017, I think I should be ok. I don’t think it matters the exact day it was paid as long as it was paid in 2017. That is my interpretation of the IRS guidance at least.

For 2018, I am just using the pre-payment option for a budgeting tool. I hate getting a massive bill twice a year and would rather spread it out, especially when interest rates are relatively low. I will take the standard deduction in 2018 as the SALT limitation will limit my deductions.

What I don’t know yet is when 2019 taxes will be assessed. In late 2018? Or early 2019? For me it doesn’t really matter as I am not deducting anything in 2018 anyway.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:12 am

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:44 am
rkhusky wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 am
Is the tax lien that is attached on Jan 1, the same as the tax assessment mentioned in the IRS guidance? i.e. did the county know on Jan 1, 2018 what the tax bill was going to be that will be sent on Jan 25, 2019?
I believe so. It's the same amount that I have mentioned previously as being available in my county in the last week of December.
If so, then prepaying, if available, should be consistent with the IRS guidance.

In our state, property is assessed in early January and tax bills are sent in July and December. I suppose that the millage rate could change between the assessment and the time that the bill is sent, which would change the tax bill. I haven't heard anything in our state about a tax lien being attached or when that would happen.

edit: perhaps tax lien means something different in Ohio. Here is what my state says about tax liens:
A Notice of State Tax Lien will be filed only after:

A tax liability has been assessed.
We sent you a Bill for Taxes Due (Intent to Assess) and/or a Final Bill for Taxes Due (Final Assessment) that tells you how much you owe in taxes; and
Your failure to pay the debt in full within the 35 days from the date shown on your Final Bill for Taxes Due.

Once these requirements have been met, a tax lien will be filed with the county Register of Deeds in the amount of your tax debt. Upon receipt of payment the lien is released and the Register of Deeds is notified.

criticalmass
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by criticalmass » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:27 am

LadyGeek wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:35 pm
This is a "no politics" forum. I replaced "Trump tax cuts" with the correct name of the enacted legislation, "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act". Please do not associate political figures with the legislation. See: Politics and Religion
In order to avoid the inevitable frictions that arise from these topics, political or religious posts and comments are prohibited. The only exceptions to this rule are:
  • Common religious expressions such as sending your prayers to an ailing member.
  • Usage of factual and non-derogatory political labels when necessary to the discussion at hand.
  • Discussions about enacted laws or regulations that affect the individual investor. Note that discussions of proposed legislation are prohibited.
  • Proposed regulations that are directly related to investing may be discussed if and when they are published for public comments.
The legislation is here: H.R.1 — 115th Congress (2017-2018)
Should all of the references to “Obamacare” in many forum posts (titles and text) be changed to Affordable Healthcare Act for consistency based on the above guidance in this thread? It’s not clear why one common (political figure) name is changed and another is okay. Thanks!

Names notwithstanding, the official guidance (state and federal) is that you can only deduct taxes that have been billed in the same tax year.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:37 am

criticalmass wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:27 am
Names notwithstanding, the official guidance (state and federal) is that you can only deduct taxes that have been billed in the same tax year.
IRS guidance has this language:
State or local law determines whether and when a property tax is assessed, which is generally when the taxpayer becomes liable for the property tax imposed.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Nate79 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:39 am

criticalmass wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:27 am
LadyGeek wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:35 pm
This is a "no politics" forum. I replaced "Trump tax cuts" with the correct name of the enacted legislation, "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act". Please do not associate political figures with the legislation. See: Politics and Religion
In order to avoid the inevitable frictions that arise from these topics, political or religious posts and comments are prohibited. The only exceptions to this rule are:
  • Common religious expressions such as sending your prayers to an ailing member.
  • Usage of factual and non-derogatory political labels when necessary to the discussion at hand.
  • Discussions about enacted laws or regulations that affect the individual investor. Note that discussions of proposed legislation are prohibited.
  • Proposed regulations that are directly related to investing may be discussed if and when they are published for public comments.
The legislation is here: H.R.1 — 115th Congress (2017-2018)
Should all of the references to “Obamacare” in many forum posts (titles and text) be changed to Affordable Healthcare Act for consistency based on the above guidance in this thread? It’s not clear why one common (political figure) name is changed and another is okay. Thanks!

Names notwithstanding, the official guidance (state and federal) is that you can only deduct taxes that have been billed in the same tax year.
You are correct that the term Obamacare was originally coined in the politics against the idea of universal healthcare - in essence mocking the idea. It caught on later as a nickname. Here is an article in the Atlantic about it's history:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... re/335745/

The actual title is The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. ACA is also a commonly used nickname.


Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:42 am

rkhusky wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:12 am
edit: perhaps tax lien means something different in Ohio. Here is what my state says about tax liens:
My layman's understanding of a lien is the same as yours -- a legal filing against the property that would prevent it from being sold/transferred without the debt being paid or otherwise accommodated.

Just speculating here, but perhaps he is indicating that the full year of tax liability doesn't exist until after 12/31. In other words, there wouldn't have been a true full year obligation when I paid on 12/27. Sort of getting off into the weeds here.....

Regardless, I think the OP's situation has been pretty much run to ground, even though the outcome wasn't the desired one.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:42 am
Regardless, I think the OP's situation has been pretty much run to ground, even though the outcome wasn't the desired one.
Yes, but it would be useful to know whether those that can prepay their taxes in 2018 can deduct them on their 2018 tax forms.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:25 am

rkhusky wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am
Yes, but it would be useful to know whether those that can prepay their taxes in 2018 can deduct them on their 2018 tax forms.
Agreed. I think the IRS guidance is fairly useful in this regard.

Since the Hamilton County escrow arrangement appears to be based on an estimate (using the prior year tax), I personally wouldn't feel comfortable deducting those payments. Though I suspect most who use that system and itemize WILL deduct it.

When I did my prepaying in prior years in the last week of December, the tax office would give me a copy of the exact tax bill I would have received in January, stamped PAID. I felt comfortable deducting that.

All of this is academic to me now as I expect to be taking the standard deduction going forward.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:08 pm

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:25 am
All of this is academic to me now as I expect to be taking the standard deduction going forward.
Remember most provisions of the individual tax scam are temporary. Except for a few provisions that stay; the limit on SALT stays and the way inflation is calculated for deduction stays. It is a sneaky tax increase. Enjoy. :beer

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bengal22
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by bengal22 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:14 pm

TropikThunder wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:07 am
bengal22 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:59 pm
Last year, Warren County was super helpful in letting us pay the next years property tax the last week of December. They told us it was estimated but they stamped payment so we can bunch our property tax. I still plan on bunching my charitable giving and property tax by paying in December every other year. This letter is in regards to setting up an escrow system for some tax payer. I can see why this is a non starter. I plan on prepaying every other December so I can itemize every other year.
Have you even read the rest of the thread? OP's entire point is that Warren County won't let him prepay in December since the bill isn't generated until January, and that allowing it in 2017 was apparently a one-time concession due to the tax law change. And per Spirit Rider's point, even if you forced them to take a payment, you can't take the deduction in 2018 if they don't bill you until 2019. If OP can't do it, I don't see how you can either.
Yes I have read the whole thread ad nauseam. The new tax law caps your tax deduction for property tax and state taxes at 10K. It does not prohibit bunching your property tax. I have no doubt that in December 2019 I will go to the county tax department and they will take my check for the next years taxes.
We had the same discussion a year ago and 80%of the posters argued that you could not prepay and bunch property tax. That was not correct.
"Earn All You Can; Give All You Can; Save All You Can." .... John Wesley

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Kenkat
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Kenkat » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:24 pm

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:25 am
rkhusky wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:12 am
Yes, but it would be useful to know whether those that can prepay their taxes in 2018 can deduct them on their 2018 tax forms.
Agreed. I think the IRS guidance is fairly useful in this regard.

Since the Hamilton County escrow arrangement appears to be based on an estimate (using the prior year tax), I personally wouldn't feel comfortable deducting those payments. Though I suspect most who use that system and itemize WILL deduct it.

When I did my prepaying in prior years in the last week of December, the tax office would give me a copy of the exact tax bill I would have received in January, stamped PAID. I felt comfortable deducting that.

All of this is academic to me now as I expect to be taking the standard deduction going forward.
The actual amount that is assessed before the end of the year (or at least was in 2017), however, and so the true amount is known before the tax year is complete. I don’t think it matters when in the year that amount is paid, just that it is paid. It’s a cash basis accounting system when it comes to taxes.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by criticalmass » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:26 pm

J G Bankerton wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:08 pm
Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:25 am
All of this is academic to me now as I expect to be taking the standard deduction going forward.
Remember most provisions of the individual tax scam are temporary. Except for a few provisions that stay; the limit on SALT stays and the way inflation is calculated for deduction stays. It is a sneaky tax increase. Enjoy. :beer
That depends. Many folks and companies are experiencing a reduction in taxes as federal tax receipts increase. But higher income (and real estate wealth) folks who are living in high tax states are having a different experience. The policy target seems to be 1) broad rate reductions while avoiding giving too much tax relief to wealthier people and 2) reduce the federal government subsidizing high state taxes through deductions.

Everyone should have an action to carefully review their tax situation and implications in these last weeks of 2018, whether real estate taxes are due soon or not.

We can always dream of a White Christmas a la Irving Berlin with a simple flat tax of lower base rates and no deductions....

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:14 pm
It does not prohibit bunching your property tax. I have no doubt that in December 2019 I will go to the county tax department and they will take my check for the next years taxes.
I don't share your confidence that my county will accept December payments, though I did when this thread started. I agree there is no prohibition against bunching deductions. But I think there has been a fundamental change in what Ohio counties will do based on the previously mentioned guidance from the Ohio Tax Commissioner's office. Counties have been advised by that office not to accept payments before Jan 1. The IRS standard for deductibility is that the taxes have to be assessed AND the taxing authority has to accept payment.

I guess we will see what happens. I will probably call my county tax office in late December once the numbers come out and see if they are accepting payments.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:30 pm

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm
Counties have been advised by that office not to accept payments before Jan 1.
That is not universal though. Different Ohio counties appear to have different billing and due dates. For example, this Ohio county sends a tax bill in December that is due in January, which is very convenient for bunching: https://treasurer.franklincountyohio.go ... tate-taxes

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:53 pm

jwkde wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:30 am
My response was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek!

The OP seems determined to make the payment despite the predominate opinion that he cannot (or should not).



Really??? What in the world made you think that I was determined to make the payment? You are 100% wrong...None of my posts implied it. This is so ridiculous...but it’s the internet, so business as usual :D

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:01 pm

Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:14 pm
It does not prohibit bunching your property tax. I have no doubt that in December 2019 I will go to the county tax department and they will take my check for the next years taxes.
I don't share your confidence that my county will accept December payments, though I did when this thread started. I agree there is no prohibition against bunching deductions. But I think there has been a fundamental change in what Ohio counties will do based on the previously mentioned guidance from the Ohio Tax Commissioner's office. Counties have been advised by that office not to accept payments before Jan 1. The IRS standard for deductibility is that the taxes have to be assessed AND the taxing authority has to accept payment.

I guess we will see what happens. I will probably call my county tax office in late December once the numbers come out and see if they are accepting payments.
Can you update this thread on your experience...I obviously will take the standard deduction for 2018.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Spirit Rider » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:34 pm

J G Bankerton wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:08 pm
Remember most provisions of the individual tax scam are temporary. Except for a few provisions that stay; the limit on SALT stays and the way inflation is calculated for deduction stays. It is a sneaky tax increase. Enjoy. :beer
This is clearly a contentious political post and against forum policy. Please keep your posts actionable and the snarky comments to yourself.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by bengal22 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:49 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:01 pm
Chip wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:14 pm
It does not prohibit bunching your property tax. I have no doubt that in December 2019 I will go to the county tax department and they will take my check for the next years taxes.
I don't share your confidence that my county will accept December payments, though I did when this thread started. I agree there is no prohibition against bunching deductions. But I think there has been a fundamental change in what Ohio counties will do based on the previously mentioned guidance from the Ohio Tax Commissioner's office. Counties have been advised by that office not to accept payments before Jan 1. The IRS standard for deductibility is that the taxes have to be assessed AND the taxing authority has to accept payment.

I guess we will see what happens. I will probably call my county tax office in late December once the numbers come out and see if they are accepting payments.
Can you update this thread on your experience...I obviously will take the standard deduction for 2018.

I did see on the Warren County website that they will not accept prepayments in December. They cited an Ohio Attorney memo dated December 2017. Most people would not prepay thus year because they bunched last year. That gives us a year to change county hall.
"Earn All You Can; Give All You Can; Save All You Can." .... John Wesley

J G Bankerton
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:50 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:34 pm
J G Bankerton wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:08 pm
Remember most provisions of the individual tax scam are temporary. Except for a few provisions that stay; the limit on SALT stays and the way inflation is calculated for deduction stays. It is a sneaky tax increase. Enjoy. :beer
This is clearly a contentious political post and against forum policy. Please keep your posts actionable and the snarky comments to yourself.
It is "actionable". There is almost zero chance that the current tax laws will be voted in again. That's what has to happen, they do nothing and we go back to the old law except for the increases that stay. The corporate cuts are permanent and require no more voting. We go back in 2025 so plan accordingly. I am for sure.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:58 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:01 pm
Can you update this thread on your experience...I obviously will take the standard deduction for 2018.
I will try to remember to update the thread. Feel free to remind me if you don't see something by 12/30. :D

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:03 am

rkhusky wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:30 pm
That is not universal though. Different Ohio counties appear to have different billing and due dates. For example, this Ohio county sends a tax bill in December that is due in January, which is very convenient for bunching: https://treasurer.franklincountyohio.go ... tate-taxes
Yes, I saw that from the links you provided in your earlier post. I can't explain it. If/when I call my county I'll try to dig deeper into the exact data they get at year end (which they have told me they have to have in order to calculate the tax bills), where it comes from (they told me "the state" in the past), and ask how it is that other counties are able to provide bills in December. And if they will allow payment in December why are they ignoring the Tax Commissioner's instructions. :twisted:

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by CAsage » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:23 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:19 pm
CAsage wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:12 pm
I have found it advantageous to pack deductions into alternate odd years - first big pack year was 2017, and I'm pushing everything I can into 2019 so as to take standard deduction in 2018. You might calculate it and see; there is no net benefit to just advancing it one year every year...
That tactic won’t work with SALT taxes as it’s limited to $10k...you cannot pack more into a year.
I will be able to itemize on my State return every other year - though with the higher standard deductions on federal tax return, possibly not my 1040 for a while. Bunching your charitable donations is still an option - push several years into a Donor advised fund, then parcel it out in the lean years....
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.

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