County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

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gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm

Chip wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:06 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm
People were playing fast and lose last year. You have to incur a liability with an opportunity to pay. This jurisdiction is clearly indicating that liability does not attach until they bill you and they will not be accepting payments before then. It couldn't be more clear. There is a big difference between paying before it is due and paying before it is owed
I understand that there has to be a liability. There currently isn't one for the OP, as the state hasn't provided the info to the county to enable them to calculate the tax. I have had discussions over the years with my county's tax office (also in Ohio) about this very issue. But there WILL BE a liability once they have that information, which normally happens in the last week of the calendar year.

I think the "fast and loose" thing here is Warren county's wording on their web site. It is correct that you can't pay the bill now, because the bill does not currently exist. But when it does exist the tax will be owed and I fully expect that the OP will be able to pay it. I believe that will occur in late December.

We will see.
If the state hasn’t provided the info to the county, how is Hamilton county Ohio able to get payments prior to assessment (as posted above)?

http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/gover ... _p_program

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:38 pm

Chip wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:06 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm
People were playing fast and lose last year. You have to incur a liability with an opportunity to pay. This jurisdiction is clearly indicating that liability does not attach until they bill you and they will not be accepting payments before then. It couldn't be more clear. There is a big difference between paying before it is due and paying before it is owed
I understand that there has to be a liability. There currently isn't one for the OP, as the state hasn't provided the info to the county to enable them to calculate the tax. I have had discussions over the years with my county's tax office (also in Ohio) about this very issue. But there WILL BE a liability once they have that information, which normally happens in the last week of the calendar year.

I think the "fast and loose" thing here is Warren county's wording on their web site. It is correct that you can't pay the bill now, because the bill does not currently exist. But when it does exist the tax will be owed and I fully expect that the OP will be able to pay it. I believe that will occur in late December.

We will see.
The lady who answered the phone call was very sure it won’t be available until January 2019...I’ve emailed the treasurer.


gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:17 pm

This is good to know...thank you!...it’s nice to get feedback from so many different folks of such a vast knowledge base...

J G Bankerton
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:18 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:17 pm
is good to know...thank you!...it’s nice to get feedback from so many different folks of such a vast knowledge base...
I only know what I read on the internets.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:21 pm

J G Bankerton wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:18 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:17 pm
is good to know...thank you!...it’s nice to get feedback from so many different folks of such a vast knowledge base...
I only know what I read on the internets.
Thank you for that clarification...

jlawrence01
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by jlawrence01 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:26 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 am

(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).

You can walk into ANY US Post Office and request that the clerk cancel the stamp right in front of you. That is done all of the time in post offices across the country when you need to ensure that the cancellation is timely.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm
If the state hasn’t provided the info to the county, how is Hamilton county Ohio able to get payments prior to assessment (as posted above)?

http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/gover ... _p_program
I don't know the answer to that. Speculating, they are using last year's amount as an estimate of this year's amount. They are collecting no more than 80% of that amount via prepayment (the 4 early payments). The final payment occurs after they have the numbers from the state and is probably a different amount than the first 4 payments; a sort of "true-up" payment. Perhaps Kenkat can elaborate on how that system works in his case.

But remember that Hamilton County doesn't know (or probably care) if the payments they receive are deductible by the payor on their federal taxes.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:47 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:38 pm
The lady who answered the phone call was very sure it won’t be available until January 2019...I’ve emailed the treasurer.
That may turn out to be true. Maybe she knows the numbers will be late this year. Or perhaps Warren County doesn't want to deal with people trying to pay early. I'm certain they have the legal authority to say that they won't accept payments until the bills have been prepared and mailed. Even if the numbers are available.

I can only tell you what has happened in the past in MY county, whose web site looks exactly like yours. I have bunched my property tax payments and deductions in odd-numbered years since 2001. In each of those years except one I was unable to find out the tax amount until the last week of December. Last year the number became available on 12/27. I remember that one year it wasn't until 12/31. In yet another year it wasn't until early January.

Here's what I would do if I were in your situation:

1. Do NOT send in an estimated payment. It's clear it will be returned based on your discussions with the county. And it wouldn't be deductible anyway.
2. Check the web site daily starting in a couple of weeks, looking for the current year tax numbers to change from the current zero value.
3. If/when the numbers appear, drive to the tax office. Ask for a printout of your current tax bill. Ask if you can pay it. If allowed, do it.

If you aren't allowed to pay, quit worrying about it. You can pay and deduct it in 2019.

If you have further contact with the treasurer's office between now and then I'm really curious as to exactly what the attorney general's "decision" in 2017 was. Google is not helping me here. You could ask. :D

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:07 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 am
THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.

PROPOSED REAL ESTATE BILL MAILING DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019
REAL ESTATE DUE DATE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2019
The county's language is confusing. If the property is assessed in 2019, the tax is billed in 2019, and the tax payment is due in 2019, then why on earth do they call it a 2018 tax? Even if it is in arrears, that is just confusing language. They should just call it a 2019 tax, even if it is assessed in Dec 2018.

J G Bankerton
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:26 am

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:07 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 am
THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.

PROPOSED REAL ESTATE BILL MAILING DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019
REAL ESTATE DUE DATE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2019
The county's language is confusing. If the property is assessed in 2019, the tax is billed in 2019, and the tax payment is due in 2019, then why on earth do they call it a 2018 tax? Even if it is in arrears, that is just confusing language. They should just call it a 2019 tax, even if it is assessed in Dec 2018.
In NJ they do something like that. We pay half of this years taxes this year and half next year. It has something to do with how the budget works. This way they can increase 2018 taxes in 2019.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:39 am

J G Bankerton wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:26 am
In NJ they do something like that. We pay half of this years taxes this year and half next year. It has something to do with how the budget works. This way they can increase 2018 taxes in 2019.
Taxes billed in 2019 should be called 2019 taxes, no matter what year the assessment is done or what period it covers.

stats99
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by stats99 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:05 am

A contributing factor in NJ is that the budgets are generally on a July 1 fiscal year.

J G Bankerton
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:08 am

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:39 am
J G Bankerton wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:26 am
In NJ they do something like that. We pay half of this years taxes this year and half next year. It has something to do with how the budget works. This way they can increase 2018 taxes in 2019.
Taxes billed in 2019 should be called 2019 taxes, no matter what year the assessment is done or what period it covers.
It makes no difference what year they call it, it is the year one pays that counts for tax write offs. Spending 2019 in 2018 is SOP for NJ towns. I will say NJ towns tried every way to get around the new tax and got shot down by the IRS. IRS didn't like calling property tax a charitable donation.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:12 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:47 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:38 pm
The lady who answered the phone call was very sure it won’t be available until January 2019...I’ve emailed the treasurer.
That may turn out to be true. Maybe she knows the numbers will be late this year. Or perhaps Warren County doesn't want to deal with people trying to pay early. I'm certain they have the legal authority to say that they won't accept payments until the bills have been prepared and mailed. Even if the numbers are available.

I can only tell you what has happened in the past in MY county, whose web site looks exactly like yours. I have bunched my property tax payments and deductions in odd-numbered years since 2001. In each of those years except one I was unable to find out the tax amount until the last week of December. Last year the number became available on 12/27. I remember that one year it wasn't until 12/31. In yet another year it wasn't until early January.

Here's what I would do if I were in your situation:

1. Do NOT send in an estimated payment. It's clear it will be returned based on your discussions with the county. And it wouldn't be deductible anyway.
2. Check the web site daily starting in a couple of weeks, looking for the current year tax numbers to change from the current zero value.
3. If/when the numbers appear, drive to the tax office. Ask for a printout of your current tax bill. Ask if you can pay it. If allowed, do it.

If you aren't allowed to pay, quit worrying about it. You can pay and deduct it in 2019.

If you have further contact with the treasurer's office between now and then I'm really curious as to exactly what the attorney general's "decision" in 2017 was. Google is not helping me here. You could ask. :D
Thank you...I've emailed out Treasurer. Let me wait for his reply...I mentioned the Ohio Attorney general's decision they had quoted and he may address it.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:14 am

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:07 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 am
THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.

PROPOSED REAL ESTATE BILL MAILING DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019
REAL ESTATE DUE DATE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2019
The county's language is confusing. If the property is assessed in 2019, the tax is billed in 2019, and the tax payment is due in 2019, then why on earth do they call it a 2018 tax? Even if it is in arrears, that is just confusing language. They should just call it a 2019 tax, even if it is assessed in Dec 2018.
Because, if I sell my house in say December 2018, I will owe most of the taxes billed out on January 2019 as the seller. If they call it 2019 taxes, then why would I pay it. This cannot be changed.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:36 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:14 am
Because, if I sell my house in say December 2018, I will owe most of the taxes billed out on January 2019 as the seller. If they call it 2019 taxes, then why would I pay it. This cannot be changed.
Depends on how the contract is written. The legal and recorded owner of the house when the tax bill is generated has to pay the tax. Where I live, if the taxes aren't paid, the government will go after the owner of the house, perhaps putting a tax lien on the property. The buyer would have to separately pursue the seller in court. Presumably the tax situation should have been taken care of at closing. If not, the buyer is responsible to the taxing authority.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 am

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:36 am
Depends on how the contract is written. But if it says nothing, then the legal and recorded owner of the house when the tax bill comes has to pay the tax.
This isn't correct. While the contract may specify that the seller reimburse the buyer for certain amounts, the HUD-1 settlement statement will reflect that the property taxes in the year of sale were apportioned between buyer and seller according to the period of ownership in the year of sale. Furthermore, the IRS requires that buyers and sellers who deduct property taxes apportion them in this manner. See Pub 530.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:58 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 am
rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:36 am
Depends on how the contract is written. But if it says nothing, then the legal and recorded owner of the house when the tax bill comes has to pay the tax.
This isn't correct. While the contract may specify that the seller reimburse the buyer for certain amounts, the HUD-1 settlement statement will reflect that the property taxes in the year of sale were apportioned between buyer and seller according to the period of ownership in the year of sale. Furthermore, the IRS requires that buyers and sellers who deduct property taxes apportion them in this manner. See Pub 530.
Right, a disclosure form is generally required when mortgages are involved. This is handled at closing in a normal real estate transaction, which in this example was Dec 2018. But when the tax bill comes in Jan 2019, it is the owner's responsibility to pay the taxes.
Last edited by rkhusky on Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 am

rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:58 am
Right. This is handled at closing in a normal real estate transaction, which in this example was Dec 2018. But when the tax bill comes in Jan 2019, it is the owner's responsibility to pay the taxes.
Sorry I misunderstood what you wrote. We are in agreement. The current owner will have to write the check to pay the taxes but they may have received a credit at closing that covers some or all of that amount.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:06 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 am
Sorry I misunderstood what you wrote. We are in agreement. The current owner will have to write the check to pay the taxes but they may have received a credit at closing that covers some or all of that amount.
I didn't word it very clearly. And you are right about the splitting of the tax deduction no matter who ultimately pays the taxes.

J G Bankerton
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:15 am

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 am
The current owner will have to write the check to pay the taxes but they may have received a credit at closing that covers some or all of that amount.
When I closed I had to pay the owner for the oil still in the tank. That was when it was priced like black gold.

Bmac
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Bmac » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:28 am

I remain confused why the OP seems to think this is more than a one year problem, given the SALT limits. I think the OP wisely bunched property tax payments in 2017 before the new law kicked in. But by doing so, now no property tax for 2018 deductions. But then in 2019 will resume having a year’s worth of property tax deductions each year (within the SALT limits). It seems that under current tax law the only deductions that can be bunched in order to go beyond the standard deduction are cash charitable donations. Either do two years of donations every other year (starting in 2019) or consider opening a DAF for a one-time large deduction (in 2019 or further down the road).

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:19 pm

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 am
rkhusky wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:58 am
Right. This is handled at closing in a normal real estate transaction, which in this example was Dec 2018. But when the tax bill comes in Jan 2019, it is the owner's responsibility to pay the taxes.
Sorry I misunderstood what you wrote. We are in agreement. The current owner will have to write the check to pay the taxes but they may have received a credit at closing that covers some or all of that amount.
I’ve sold home, land a couple of times. Both times the title company was able to get the EXACT property taxes I needed to pay at closing, to the penny. Well before it was available online. Yet as a constituent this info is unobtainable by me. Why is this?

How do title companies get this amount freely at any time of the Year? If I am closing on my house today, I’ll know exactly how much I owe in property taxes.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:42 pm

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:47 am
[
If you have further contact with the treasurer's office between now and then I'm really curious as to exactly what the attorney general's "decision" in 2017 was. Google is not helping me here. You could ask. :D
Chip

I pm’d the email response I got from our treasurer. Hope it satisfies your curiosity.

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm

the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this...... then "skip" a year and take the standard deduction then the following year pay taxes for current year and next year, then skip.... this is not allowed. There is no gaming the new SALT deduction laws.

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Kenkat
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Kenkat » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:46 pm

Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm
If the state hasn’t provided the info to the county, how is Hamilton county Ohio able to get payments prior to assessment (as posted above)?

http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/gover ... _p_program
I don't know the answer to that. Speculating, they are using last year's amount as an estimate of this year's amount. They are collecting no more than 80% of that amount via prepayment (the 4 early payments). The final payment occurs after they have the numbers from the state and is probably a different amount than the first 4 payments; a sort of "true-up" payment. Perhaps Kenkat can elaborate on how that system works in his case.

But remember that Hamilton County doesn't know (or probably care) if the payments they receive are deductible by the payor on their federal taxes.
Yes, what you stated is basically it:
Once enrolled in the program, you will be sent four prepayment coupons, representing your estimated tax payment. Each month you would mail your one-fifth payment, along with a coupon, to the treasurer's office. The final statement will be your tax bill, which will reflect all prepayments made and the final balance due.
In 2017, they announced the full year 2018 taxes due in late December of 2017. I pre-paid the last 1st half payment and all of the 2nd half payment in 2017 and itemized. Based on everything I had read, that’s legit. If it is ruled otherwise in the future, there’s gonna be a lot of unhappy taxpayers. Unhappy taxpayers are usually not good for incumbent politicians.

Regardless, at this point I am just using this program as a budgeting tool as the SALT cap will effectively turn me into a standard deduction type for 2018.

J G Bankerton
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:13 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm
the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this......
If one doesn't care about paying the tax authority interest don't pay for a year then makeup the next paying two years. It is the year paid not the year billed that counts.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:27 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm
the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this...... then "skip" a year and take the standard deduction then the following year pay taxes for current year and next year, then skip.... this is not allowed. There is no gaming the new SALT deduction laws.
This is 100% wrong....

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:27 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm
the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this...... then "skip" a year and take the standard deduction then the following year pay taxes for current year and next year, then skip.... this is not allowed. There is no gaming the new SALT deduction laws.
This is 100% wrong....
No what you are trying to do is 100% wrong, there is no gaming the new SALT cap, you cant prepay you cant send money to a charity instead and try to deduct that, it is over and done, you cant deduct more than 10K period get over it and move on, it hurt me as well....

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:35 pm

Kenkat wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:46 pm
Chip wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:17 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm
If the state hasn’t provided the info to the county, how is Hamilton county Ohio able to get payments prior to assessment (as posted above)?

http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/gover ... _p_program
I don't know the answer to that. Speculating, they are using last year's amount as an estimate of this year's amount. They are collecting no more than 80% of that amount via prepayment (the 4 early payments). The final payment occurs after they have the numbers from the state and is probably a different amount than the first 4 payments; a sort of "true-up" payment. Perhaps Kenkat can elaborate on how that system works in his case.

But remember that Hamilton County doesn't know (or probably care) if the payments they receive are deductible by the payor on their federal taxes.
Yes, what you stated is basically it:


80% pre-payment would be lovely in my case...80% of $13k is over $10k and will maximize SALT deduction...I’ll get what I want. 80% pre-payment is all I want.

My county won’t do it, as the cost to implement such a system is apparently too much and doesn’t justify for our county...if your county is full of deadbeats, then the cost to benefit ratio is better.

As per my treasurer as most of my county members pay their property taxes, I cannot ‘pre-pay’ my current years property taxes....has nothing to do with Ohio laws...just a cost vs benefit analysis of hiring an extra member to oversee ‘pre-payment’....

jlawrence01
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by jlawrence01 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:40 pm

And people wondered why I moved out of Ohio in 2000 ...

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:42 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:27 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm
the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this...... then "skip" a year and take the standard deduction then the following year pay taxes for current year and next year, then skip.... this is not allowed. There is no gaming the new SALT deduction laws.
This is 100% wrong....
No what you are trying to do is 100% wrong, there is no gaming the new SALT cap, you cant prepay you cant send money to a charity instead and try to deduct that, it is over and done, you cant deduct more than 10K period get over it and move on, it hurt me as well....
This is not gaming anything....lol!...you have no idea what you are talking about...you are missing out on the entire topic at hand...

The ONLY reason I cannot do it, where as if I was living in Hamilton county of Ohio can do exactly what I want to do is because of the decision my treasurer made...cost to benefit lays on the other side...try to comprehend the difference....there’s no gaming...Hamilton county in not gaming, asking my county to do the same is not gaming...

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:44 pm

jlawrence01 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:40 pm
And people wondered why I moved out of Ohio in 2000 ...
Lol! Extrapolating how property taxes is handled by each county of a state to living in a state is a tad “X”...I’ll let you fill in the “X”

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:45 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:42 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:27 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm
the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this...... then "skip" a year and take the standard deduction then the following year pay taxes for current year and next year, then skip.... this is not allowed. There is no gaming the new SALT deduction laws.
This is 100% wrong....
No what you are trying to do is 100% wrong, there is no gaming the new SALT cap, you cant prepay you cant send money to a charity instead and try to deduct that, it is over and done, you cant deduct more than 10K period get over it and move on, it hurt me as well....
This is not gaming anything....lol!...you have no idea what you are talking about...you are missing out on the entire topic at hand...

The ONLY reason I cannot do it, where as if I was living in Hamilton county of Ohio can do exactly what I want to do is because of the decision my treasurer made...cost to benefit lays on the other side...try to comprehend the difference....there’s no gaming...Hamilton county in not gaming, asking my county to do the same is not gaming...
Ok then tell me what your property taxes are PER year, and THAT is what you can deduct on your taxes, not that amount AND a prepayment of next year taxes, because that is not allowed as it is gaming the system, so if that is what you want to do pay current year taxes PLUS ANY AMOUNT of next years taxes to increase the amount you can deduct for SALT, that is gaming the system....

gilgamesh
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:29 am

Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:52 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:45 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:42 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:33 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:27 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 pm
the end of the story is you cannot have two tax years payments in one year to try and get a higher deduction due to this...... then "skip" a year and take the standard deduction then the following year pay taxes for current year and next year, then skip.... this is not allowed. There is no gaming the new SALT deduction laws.
This is 100% wrong....
No what you are trying to do is 100% wrong, there is no gaming the new SALT cap, you cant prepay you cant send money to a charity instead and try to deduct that, it is over and done, you cant deduct more than 10K period get over it and move on, it hurt me as well....
This is not gaming anything....lol!...you have no idea what you are talking about...you are missing out on the entire topic at hand...

The ONLY reason I cannot do it, where as if I was living in Hamilton county of Ohio can do exactly what I want to do is because of the decision my treasurer made...cost to benefit lays on the other side...try to comprehend the difference....there’s no gaming...Hamilton county in not gaming, asking my county to do the same is not gaming...
Ok then tell me what your property taxes are PER year, and THAT is what you can deduct on your taxes, not that amount AND a prepayment of next year taxes, because that is not allowed as it is gaming the system, so if that is what you want to do pay current year taxes PLUS ANY AMOUNT of next years taxes to increase the amount you can deduct for SALT, that is gaming the system....
This is the last freaking time I’ll say this...I do not want to pre-pay next years (2019) taxes, Of course that’s gaming...I want to pay my 2018 taxes in 2018 like I was able to pay my 2017 taxes in 2017...

I cannot freaking pay my 2018 taxes in 2018 as my county only gets to do it on January 2019...that’s the whole damn issue...they are scared of the feds and are frozen into inaction. Please collect my taxes on the year it’s due...I don’t want to game anyone, please take my taxes on the year it’s due...no, they are too scared of what the feds will do....all I want is for my 2018 property taxes to be paid in 2018 - that’s gaming the system???

P.S: I’m being overly dramatic to make a point...but facts are facts,
My property taxes for 2018 is a bit over $13k, but I’m allowed to deduct $0 in 2018 as they won’t bill it to me till 2019.

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:21 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm
My county accepted ‘pre-payment’ of 2017 taxes in 2017 (We typically pay previous year’s property taxes in January of the following year). This helped, as I was able to get that tax deduction in my 2017 tax return.
YOU SAID IT RIGHT HERE< this was gaming the system and getting a larger deduction before the SALT cap went into place... you don't pay taxes like that. taxes are June -May, not January-December, you cant pay 2017 taxes in Jan of 2017 you paid 2017 taxes like this.

2017 Q1 Tax gets paid in Q3 of 2017, Q2 of 2017 taxes get paid in Q4 of 2017, Q3 of 2017 taxes get paid in Q1 of 2018 and Q4 2017 taxes get paid in Q2 of 2018, so paying ALL of 2017 taxes in 2017 was done to get the 2017 deduction before the 2018 SALT Cap came into play....

Taxes are not calendar year, they are fiscal year.....

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:21 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm
My county accepted ‘pre-payment’ of 2017 taxes in 2017 (We typically pay previous year’s property taxes in January of the following year). This helped, as I was able to get that tax deduction in my 2017 tax return.
YOU SAID IT RIGHT HERE< this was gaming the system and getting a larger deduction before the SALT cap went into place... you don't pay taxes like that. taxes are June -May, not January-December, you cant pay 2017 taxes in Jan of 2017 you paid 2017 taxes like this.

2017 Q1 Tax gets paid in Q3 of 2017, Q2 of 2017 taxes get paid in Q4 of 2017, Q3 of 2017 taxes get paid in Q1 of 2018 and Q4 2017 taxes get paid in Q2 of 2018, so paying ALL of 2017 taxes in 2017 was done to get the 2017 deduction before the 2018 SALT Cap came into play....

Taxes are not calendar year, they are fiscal year.....
You are extrapolating what your county does to the whole world...taxes are NOT June-May? Get out of your well and look at the world at large...each county is different.

pdavi21
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by pdavi21 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm

My county says your copy of the check is your receipt.

On the hypothetical of dropping the check in the mail, they cash it too late, IRS audit. Perhaps the check copy with a 2018 date on it will prove payment to the auditors? Will the auditor require bank statements showing that the check was cashed? Is the effective payment date the date on the check or the date the check was cashed?

Hopefully, I am not advocating tax fraud, but I consider it worth the risk.

gilgamesh
Posts: 1174
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:31 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:23 pm
When I get my taxes paid for 2018, it is not paying 2018 fiscal year taxes, it is cash method of payments for Q3 and Q4 of 2017 taxes and Q1 and Q2 of 2018 taxes, you keep mixing up fiscal years and calendar years, because you wanted to get the extra SALT deduction before the new 10K cap when into place....
Good to know what your county does...again, it should be obvious to everyone each county does things differently....asking a county to do what they did the year before is not asking for too much, thar’s All!

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:36 pm

pdavi21 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm
My county says your copy of the check is your receipt.

On the hypothetical of dropping the check in the mail, they cash it too late, IRS audit. Perhaps the check copy with a 2018 date on it will prove payment to the auditors? Will the auditor require bank statements showing that the check was cashed? Is the effective payment date the date on the check or the date the check was cashed?

Hopefully, I am not advocating tax fraud, but I consider it worth the risk.
Thank you!....each county have their own rules, alas I don’t think I can extrapolate yours to mine (However favorable it may be to me)...why can’t some people understand the world doesn’t revolve around their county’s property tax law...rest in peace Galileo.

Bmac
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Bmac » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:40 pm

Bmac wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:28 am
I remain confused why the OP seems to think this is more than a one year problem, given the SALT limits. I think the OP wisely bunched property tax payments in 2017 before the new law kicked in. But by doing so, now no property tax for 2018 deductions. But then in 2019 will resume having a year’s worth of property tax deductions each year (within the SALT limits). It seems that under current tax law the only deductions that can be bunched in order to go beyond the standard deduction are cash charitable donations. Either do two years of donations every other year (starting in 2019) or consider opening a DAF for a one-time large deduction (in 2019 or further down the road).
Am I wrong here? Isn’t this just a one year problem (2018 taxes)? I agree that there was nothing wrong with bunching property taxes in 2017 before tax law changes. That was not gaming the system. But going forward, unless your SALT would be less than $10k, why try to bunch property taxes?

pdavi21
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by pdavi21 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:42 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:36 pm
I don’t think I can extrapolate yours to mine...
Perhaps, but consider we both get audited by IRS...I will show my carbon copy (and-if requested-bank statement). You could also show the same as it is the same agency auditing us. Why would the Feds require you to show more than me based on county law?

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:49 pm

pdavi21 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:42 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:36 pm
I don’t think I can extrapolate yours to mine...
Perhaps, but consider we both get audited by IRS...I will show my carbon copy (and-if requested-bank statement). You could also show the same as it is the same agency auditing us. Why would the Feds require you to show more than me based on county law?
Let’s say IRS says you cannot go below 100...a county decides they set their limit as 120, another 150 but one dared to set it at 100...no one violated the IRS rule, but each is different.


What I’m asking for is not against IRS rules...my county has aknlowedged it already...absolutely no one is breaking IRS rules here....no one!

P.S; allowing me to pay my 2018 property taxes in 2018 is not against the law...my treasurer has already acknowledged that...it just costs too much for him to implement it...where as Hamilton county Ohio found it to be worth the cost...that's all
Last edited by gilgamesh on Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lifeisinmirrors
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by lifeisinmirrors » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:50 pm

The county did a favor for the taxpayers last year by accepting payments early. There's nothing requiring them to do the same thing this year. And as a taxpayer, you can't use a previous year's tax laws just because they're more favorable to you. None of the workarounds mentioned would likely survive an audit.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:59 pm

lifeisinmirrors wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:50 pm
The county did a favor for the taxpayers last year by accepting payments early. There's nothing requiring them to do the same thing this year. And as a taxpayer, you can't use a previous year's tax laws just because they're more favorable to you. None of the workarounds mentioned would likely survive an audit.
Bravo!

Thank you....thank you sooooooooo bloody much for actually Comprehending the issue, although you don’t agree with my stance....oh my god, such a breath of fresh air....

Yes I can’t use the previous tax years laws just because they were favorable, but is it it wrong to request the same for this year?....the IRS doesnt say they cannot repeat, so I’m asking them to repeat...their answer is it will cost too much...that was the official reply...not that’s illegal, only that they decided the cost to benefit ratio for the population according to themn didn’t warrant a repeat...

Thegame14
Posts: 450
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:05 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:59 pm
lifeisinmirrors wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:50 pm
The county did a favor for the taxpayers last year by accepting payments early. There's nothing requiring them to do the same thing this year. And as a taxpayer, you can't use a previous year's tax laws just because they're more favorable to you. None of the workarounds mentioned would likely survive an audit.
Bravo!

Thank you....thank you sooooooooo bloody much for actually Comprehending the issue, although you don’t agree with my stance....oh my god, such a breath of fresh air....

Yes I can’t use the previous tax years laws just because they were favorable, but is it it wrong to request the same for this year?....the IRS doesnt say they cannot repeat, so I’m asking them to repeat...their answer is it will cost too much...that was the official reply...not that’s illegal, only that they decided the cost to benefit ratio for the population according to themn didn’t warrant a repeat...
Yes you are wrong for asking them to repeat since it was done as a favor to try to attempt to let people game the new SALT Deduction, it wont happen again, so you cant ask for an exception twice.. it is over, move on.....

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:05 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:52 pm
I want to pay my 2018 taxes in 2018 like I was able to pay my 2017 taxes in 2017...
"2018 taxes" is just a label, it could just as well be "December taxes", "Q4 taxes", "Red taxes", etc. The important thing is that, according to your county, it is billed in 2019 and must be paid in 2019. Government is required to treat everyone the same and, if they make an exception for one, they must make exceptions for all (and then it is really not an exception anymore, but the rule). Bureaucrats therefore fall back on their rules and getting them to change the rules will likely take a great effort, especially if their attorney has informed them how to proceed. You will need to decide how much effort you are willing to expend getting the rules changed - attend county council meetings, write letters, make phone calls, file a lawsuit, etc.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas

Post by gilgamesh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:07 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:05 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:59 pm
lifeisinmirrors wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:50 pm
The county did a favor for the taxpayers last year by accepting payments early. There's nothing requiring them to do the same thing this year. And as a taxpayer, you can't use a previous year's tax laws just because they're more favorable to you. None of the workarounds mentioned would likely survive an audit.
Bravo!

Thank you....thank you sooooooooo bloody much for actually Comprehending the issue, although you don’t agree with my stance....oh my god, such a breath of fresh air....

Yes I can’t use the previous tax years laws just because they were favorable, but is it it wrong to request the same for this year?....the IRS doesnt say they cannot repeat, so I’m asking them to repeat...their answer is it will cost too much...that was the official reply...not that’s illegal, only that they decided the cost to benefit ratio for the population according to themn didn’t warrant a repeat...
Yes you are wrong for asking them to repeat since it was done as a favor to try to attempt to let people game the new SALT Deduction, it wont happen again, so you cant ask for an exception twice.. it is over, move on.....
Why not? What IRS rule says you can’t do it again..you are wrong, not me (as per law).

texas lawdog
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by texas lawdog » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:14 pm

They probably only allowed prepay because of the pending changes in tax law and were ovewhelmed by customers trying to do the same.
If the tax has not yet been assessed, then no amount of prepayment is going to be deductible under the revised IRS guidance.
Some counties accepted prepayments in 2017 waiting for IRS guidance and then had to turn around and refund because they were not deductible.
You can do a quick search for the updated IRS Advisory issued Dec 27, 2017.

Good Luck,

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