Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

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alex_686
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by alex_686 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:45 pm

mariezzz wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:10 pm
Is there really much more expense to Vanguard from "investor shares" than there are from "admiral shares"? It seems like the difference is mainly one of bookkeeping, and there can't be much added expense there.
Yes there is. Running the call center. It costs just as much to service a $1,000 client as a $1,000,000 client. Mailing out annual reports. Or if electronically delivered, maintaining the lists. Handling shareholder voting. Generating 1099s. I could go on.

sport
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by sport » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:54 pm

mariezzz wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:10 pm
Is there really much more expense to Vanguard from "investor shares" than there are from "admiral shares"? It seems like the difference is mainly one of bookkeeping, and there can't be much added expense there.
The expense is the same. However, the small size of the account does not allow a lower expense ration to cover the costs.

mariezzz
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by mariezzz » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:04 pm

alex_686 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:45 pm
mariezzz wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:10 pm
Is there really much more expense to Vanguard from "investor shares" than there are from "admiral shares"? It seems like the difference is mainly one of bookkeeping, and there can't be much added expense there.
Yes there is. Running the call center. It costs just as much to service a $1,000 client as a $1,000,000 client. Mailing out annual reports. Or if electronically delivered, maintaining the lists. Handling shareholder voting. Generating 1099s. I could go on.
Aside from the call center, I would think the other costs are quite minimal. All those other systems need to be maintained for admiral shares, so the added incremental cost from investor shares is really quite small (probably less than the expense ratio difference).

Plus, Vanguard needs to think of the long-term value of initially small-value-account customers.

Vanguard seems to think there's a 'bend point' at a total account balance of $50K (regardless of how many sub-accounts - Roths, TIRAs, individual accounts - there are), given that is where 'voyageur' status kicks in.

arf30
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by arf30 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:17 pm

A major advantage of there only being 1 share class would mean that you could invest in VG mutual funds at any brokerage that already supports them (many large brokerages allow buying investor shares currently) and get the same expense ratios as their ETFs.

b0B
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by b0B » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm

A little arithmetic. Suppose investor shares have ER 15bp and admiral shares have ER 5bp.

Then a $3,000 account pays $4.50 and a $1,000,000 account pays $500.00.

Soooo..., what exactly was the point of all this discussion again?

arf30
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by arf30 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:26 pm

b0B wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm
A little arithmetic. Suppose investor shares have ER 15bp and admiral shares have ER 5bp.

Then a $3,000 account pays $4.50 and a $1,000,000 account pays $500.00.

Soooo..., what exactly was the point of all this discussion again?
Play with an expense ratio calculator, you'll see even minor ER differences add up to tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars over a 30 year period for the typical investor.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by b0B » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:37 pm

arf30 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:26 pm
b0B wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm
A little arithmetic. Suppose investor shares have ER 15bp and admiral shares have ER 5bp.

Then a $3,000 account pays $4.50 and a $1,000,000 account pays $500.00.

Soooo..., what exactly was the point of all this discussion again?
Play with an expense ratio calculator, you'll see even minor ER differences add up to tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars over a 30 year period for the typical investor.
People are saying that the $3,000 account should pay $1.50 instead of $4.50.

arf30
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by arf30 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:50 pm

b0B wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:37 pm
People are saying that the $3,000 account should pay $1.50 instead of $4.50.
Gotcha - no argument there.

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jeffyscott
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by jeffyscott » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:30 pm

b0B wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm
A little arithmetic. Suppose investor shares have ER 15bp and admiral shares have ER 5bp.

Then a $3,000 account pays $4.50 and a $1,000,000 account pays $500.00.

Soooo..., what exactly was the point of all this discussion again?
When did they raise the admiral minimums to $1,000,000?
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by stan1 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:31 am

venkman wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:40 pm

If VG is truly operating at cost, and it costs more to service small balances, then VG would be losing money if they charged those small accounts the same ER as the larger accounts, and they'd have to make that up somewhere. Though, it wouldn't necessarily have to come from higher ER's on Admiral shares; VG could just charge a flat fee on small balances within each fund (which I think they already do, though they waive it if you agree to get all your documents electronically.)
There are many ways to allocate cost. Vanguard could charge people who call in to do anything that could be done online or ask a question that could be answered by looking at the Vanguard website. Or they would allocate each customer a handful of calls per year for free and then charge extra for clients needing special assistance. This would upset a few people so they won't do it. Banks tried fees to talk to a teller about 20 years ago. It lasted a few weeks as I recall because of all the bad public relations.

At this point people who hold Vanguard ETFs at other brokerages pay the same expense ratio as people who hold Vanguard Admiral shares at Vanguard. Put another way the people who hold Vanguard ETFs elsewhere are helping subsidize Vanguard's customer service costs. Maybe Vanguard will eventually lower the expense ratio on ETFs below Admiral shares?

mervinj7
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by mervinj7 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:39 pm

Since Fidelity did recently merge their share classes for their index, I was curious how well their expenses matched the posted ER. For example, we can take a look at Fidelity Total Market Index Fund and analyze the latest semi-annual report posted on Oct 30,2018.
The fund reported net assets of $58B. The total expenses before reductions across all share classes (e.g. Investor, Premium, Institutional, Institutional Premium, Class F) was only $7M. Thus the effective ER should be $7M/$58B or 0.012%. The reported ER for the surviving Institutional Premium share class (FSKAX) is 0.015%. That means even after all share classes are merged and the lowest ER is used, it still won't be a loss leader for Fidelity. Vanguard, assuming it has similarly efficient operations, should be able to do the same with their total market funds.

https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutua ... /315911693

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by retiringwhen » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:39 pm
Since Fidelity did recently merge their share classes for their index, I was curious how well their expenses matched the posted ER. For example, we can take a look at Fidelity Total Market Index Fund and analyze the latest semi-annual report posted on Oct 30,2018.
The fund reported net assets of $58B. The total expenses before reductions across all share classes (e.g. Investor, Premium, Institutional, Institutional Premium, Class F) was only $7M. Thus the effective ER should be $7M/$58B or 0.012%. The reported ER for the surviving Institutional Premium share class (FSKAX) is 0.015%. That means even after all share classes are merged and the lowest ER is used, it still won't be a loss leader for Fidelity. Vanguard, assuming it has similarly efficient operations, should be able to do the same with their total market funds.

https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutua ... /315911693
Have you looked at the FSKAX prospectus to see if they are subsidizing the expense ratio? the Zero Funds are assumed to have actual expenses of 0.05%

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by mervinj7 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:58 pm

retiringwhen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm
Have you looked at the FSKAX prospectus to see if they are subsidizing the expense ratio? the Zero Funds are assumed to have actual expenses of 0.05%
Here's the breakdown from the FSKAX propectus:

Code: Select all

Expenses 	 	 
Management fee 					$4,005,590 	 
Transfer agent fees 				2,802,870 	 
Independent trustees' fees and expenses 	$131,478 	 
Legal 						$3,348 	 
Interest 					$16,268 	 
Commitment fees 				$71,142 	 
Total expenses before reductions 		$7,030,696 	 
Expense reductions 				($6,402) 	 
Total expenses after reductions 	 	$7,024,294 
As far as I can tell, the expense reduction is for ~$6.4k. Is that the correct way to interpret this data? I'm not surprised if the zero funds have an actual ER of 0.05%. They are much smaller and there are some fixed costs, independent of AUM.

retiringwhen
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by retiringwhen » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:22 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:58 pm
retiringwhen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm
Have you looked at the FSKAX prospectus to see if they are subsidizing the expense ratio? the Zero Funds are assumed to have actual expenses of 0.05%
Here's the breakdown from the FSKAX propectus:

Code: Select all

Expenses 	 	 
Management fee 					$4,005,590 	 
Transfer agent fees 				2,802,870 	 
Independent trustees' fees and expenses 	$131,478 	 
Legal 						$3,348 	 
Interest 					$16,268 	 
Commitment fees 				$71,142 	 
Total expenses before reductions 		$7,030,696 	 
Expense reductions 				($6,402) 	 
Total expenses after reductions 	 	$7,024,294 
As far as I can tell, the expense reduction is for ~$6.4k. Is that the correct way to interpret this data? I'm not surprised if the zero funds have an actual ER of 0.05%. They are much smaller and there are some fixed costs, independent of AUM.
I did a quick look at the prospectus and it looks to be pre-collapse, so not sure how current valid the data is, but i agree your read is they are saying they subsidize the fund to the tune of $6K (noise).

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by mervinj7 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:12 pm

retiringwhen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:22 pm
I did a quick look at the prospectus and it looks to be pre-collapse, so not sure how current valid the data is, but i agree your read is they are saying they subsidize the fund to the tune of $6K (noise).
One would think their aggregate expenses should go down slightly once the complexities of managing multiple share classes are reduced.

Can somebody who is familiar with the Vanguard Total Market funds do a similar breakdown of expenses to AUM across share classes? That way, we can calculate what the effective ER is currently and what it could be if investor shares are eventually folded into Admiral shares like OP's original proposition suggests.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by asset_chaos » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:34 pm

Vanguard launched a Global Credit Bond Fund with admiral and investor shares but no etf; although, I believe Vanguard has had this or a similar fund with etf shares for several ears at non-US Vanguard. Evidence remains mixed that investor shares will cease.
Regards, | | Guy

alex_686
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by alex_686 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:39 pm

asset_chaos wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:34 pm
Vanguard launched a Global Credit Bond Fund with admiral and investor shares but no etf; although, I believe Vanguard has had this or a similar fund with etf shares for several ears at non-US Vanguard. Evidence remains mixed that investor shares will cease.
Bond ETF funds are more complex to run, global bonds funds are even more complex. However the trend lines are clear and these complexities are being solved.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by sport » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:55 pm

mervinj7 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:12 pm
One would think their aggregate expenses should go down slightly once the complexities of managing multiple share classes are reduced.
It seems that there is little, if any, cost to " managing multiple share classes". All the share classes are just one fund. The only difference is the ER that an individual client sees in their account. That would be an automatic accounting function.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by alex_686 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:02 pm

sport wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:55 pm
It seems that there is little, if any, cost to " managing multiple share classes". All the share classes are just one fund. The only difference is the ER that an individual client sees in their account. That would be an automatic accounting function.
Having done this for a living, I can tell you it is not automatic. I mean, it is automated function that is kept alive with a small IT/accounting team. Adjustments need to be made, SEC rulings come down and need to be interpreted, etc. You can't buy off the shelf software to do this.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by mervinj7 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:51 pm

retiringwhen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:22 pm
mervinj7 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:58 pm
retiringwhen wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm
Have you looked at the FSKAX prospectus to see if they are subsidizing the expense ratio? the Zero Funds are assumed to have actual expenses of 0.05%
Here's the breakdown from the FSKAX propectus:

Code: Select all

Expenses 	 	 
Management fee 					$4,005,590 	 
Transfer agent fees 				2,802,870 	 
Independent trustees' fees and expenses 	$131,478 	 
Legal 						$3,348 	 
Interest 					$16,268 	 
Commitment fees 				$71,142 	 
Total expenses before reductions 		$7,030,696 	 
Expense reductions 				($6,402) 	 
Total expenses after reductions 	 	$7,024,294 
As far as I can tell, the expense reduction is for ~$6.4k. Is that the correct way to interpret this data? I'm not surprised if the zero funds have an actual ER of 0.05%. They are much smaller and there are some fixed costs, independent of AUM.
I did a quick look at the prospectus and it looks to be pre-collapse, so not sure how current valid the data is, but i agree your read is they are saying they subsidize the fund to the tune of $6K (noise).
To complicate things even further, security lending income is not included in the above expenses.

Code: Select all

Income from Fidelity Central Funds (including $6,954,115 from security lending) 	 	8,315,323
Then, if I understand this financial report correctly, the net expenses of $7,024,294 is almost completely cancelled by the security lending income of $6,954,115 for the period ending on Aug 2018. That means, if I look at the fund tracking error for the past 1 year, it should be roughly 0 instead of the effective ER of 0.02% and that's indeed what I see (6.56% for both).

Code: Select all

Monthly (AS OF 10/31/2018) YTD (Monthly) 1 Yr 3 Yrs 5 Yrs 10 Yrs Life
Fidelity® Total Market Index Fund 2.38% [b]6.56%[/b] 11.26% 10.78% 13.34% 7.37%
DJ US Total Stk Mkt 2.39% [b]6.56%[/b] 11.24% 10.76% 13.36% 7.34%

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jeffyscott
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by jeffyscott » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:20 pm

alex_686 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:39 pm
asset_chaos wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:34 pm
Vanguard launched a Global Credit Bond Fund with admiral and investor shares but no etf; although, I believe Vanguard has had this or a similar fund with etf shares for several ears at non-US Vanguard. Evidence remains mixed that investor shares will cease.
Bond ETF funds are more complex to run, global bonds funds are even more complex. However the trend lines are clear and these complexities are being solved.
More importantly, it's not an index fund, so cannot be an etf.
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by alex_686 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:31 pm

jeffyscott wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:20 pm
More importantly, it's not an index fund, so cannot be an etf.
Active ETFs are becoming more of a thing. It is one of those complexities that are being solved which I mentioned above. This is particularly true with bond funds.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by jeffyscott » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:06 pm

alex_686 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:31 pm
jeffyscott wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:20 pm
More importantly, it's not an index fund, so cannot be an etf.
Active ETFs are becoming more of a thing. It is one of those complexities that are being solved which I mentioned above. This is particularly true with bond funds.
Oh, I guess I am behind the times. I thought only index funds were legally allowed to be ETFs.
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

retiringwhen
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by retiringwhen » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

So here is a summary of the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (VTSAX and variants) using last years annual report (12/31/17)

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-fu ... file/VTSAX

Attached is a spreadsheet that I did the calculations (loads of detail that will get munged on the forum display)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-81aGP ... sp=sharing

Two things jump out at me.

1.) There are two types of Expenses: core Vanguard Group expenses for running the Fund Complex and specific fund related expenses. It is clear that the core Vanguard Group expenses dwarf the fund related expenses and the bulk of the difference between Investor share and the others is the Vanguard Group Expenses. There is some question in my mind of all the Vanguard Group Expenses report in a fund annual report would be reported in a similar Fidelity Fund as those costs are not born by the fund itself.

2.) If Vanguard dropped all the Share classes into one, the vast majority of the fund assets invested would see significant cost increases to cover the high costs of the Investor Shares. If just Admiral, ETF and Investor Shares are collapsed the ER would be 0.0644% or approximately a 60% increase in cost for the Admiral and ETF share classes. In other words, Vanguard has made the case in their servicing agreement that Investor Shares represent a very large part of the actual costs to service the accounts. It would be much large impact on the Institutional classes.

This is the biggest fund at Vanguard and has 6 fund classes with the each growing in 2017 with net purchases.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by alex_686 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:22 am

jeffyscott wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:06 pm
Oh, I guess I am behind the times. I thought only index funds were legally allowed to be ETFs.
I will admit that active ETFs boggled my mind when I first heard about them. Bond ETFs have another barrier that the redemption/creation unit process does not involve the actually exchange of the underlying index because the number of bonds are too large.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by Clever_Username » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:06 pm

Aaaw, and I'm so close to converting my last Investor-class shares fund to Admiral!
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by AlohaJoe » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:30 am

Looks like MnD was right.

VTSMX is now closed to new investors.

viewtopic.php?p=4219864#p4219864

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by ReformedSpender » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:32 am

Looks like your suspicions were right. Vanguard change admiral shares of 38 mutual fund to 3k minimum and closed the investor share class on a select few

https://investornews.vanguard/our-index ... en-better/

:beer
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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by retiringwhen » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:17 am

The cynical part of me is concerned. If there are true costs with the the low balance funds, then the only way for them to make it up is to sell more VPAS. Look for more of a hard-sell on VPAS.

The other way is to encourage investors to go with the fewest number of funds possible to reduce overhead. More Target Date and LifeStrategy Funds. Maybe in a few months they'll drop the minimums on them to zero or $250 or some such number. I would think a cool option is open with zero and require automatic purchases to encourage regular savings.....

BTW, This is a fascinating response to Fidelity in light of the Barron's article over the weekend with Abigail Johnson.

I hate to say it but Vanguard is basically stalking the response to Fidelity directly. Lower barriers to index funds, keep the margins up in Active Funds and push Advisory Services... It is a good day to be a passive investor, but I am concerned that one will have to be a bit more diligent with Vanguard and not believing they are 100% aligned with their owner/customer. I unfortunately see more and more pushing for the advisory services...... Or active funds.

The other thing I want to see is an announcement / SEC Filing on how the Servicing Agreement with Vanguard Group gets modified with the dropping of Investor Shares. My calculations at least on VTSAX said that ERs would have to go up for Admiral shares if they were merged by %0.02 when calculated from the Annual report.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by jeffyscott » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:34 am

retiringwhen wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:17 am
My calculations at least on VTSAX said that ERs would have to go up for Admiral shares if they were merged by %0.02 when calculated from the Annual report.
But those calculations, I assume, did not account for investor shares continuing in target date, life strategy, etc.
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by retiringwhen » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:33 am

jeffyscott wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:34 am
retiringwhen wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:17 am
My calculations at least on VTSAX said that ERs would have to go up for Admiral shares if they were merged by %0.02 when calculated from the Annual report.
But those calculations, I assume, did not account for investor shares continuing in target date, life strategy, etc.
This was a simple allocation of costs across assets as reported in the Annual Report, there is no assignment to other funds for the those shares in the report so i couldn't calculate that split without going to every fund that has VTSAX in it and summing up the amounts. So, yes there will still be some assets in the Investor Class and they will still have shares in the higher ER. I guess that would still balance the numbers. Anyone know what percentage of Investor Shares of VTSAX are held by Funds of Funds?

I also think some 401(K) type accounts with minimum balances still only make Investor Share available, right? That seems like a likely source of them too.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by jeffyscott » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:28 pm

Perhaps the theoretical cost impact for VTSAX will be more like what I calculated for the 500 index as that's not used in the fund of funds?

In reality, I'd not expect any actual change. I doubt vanguard would do this and then turn around and jack up expense ratios.
press on, regardless - John C. Bogle

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by eukonomos » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:32 pm

ReformedSpender wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:32 am
Looks like your suspicions were right. Vanguard change admiral shares of 38 mutual fund to 3k minimum and closed the investor share class on a select few

https://investornews.vanguard/our-index ... en-better/

:beer
From that announcement:
Our Admiral Shares were previously available to investors with over $10,000 per fund. Now you’ll only need $3,000 to take advantage of the low expense ratios Admiral Shares offer. In turn, we’re eliminating higher-cost Investor Shares of those same index funds for individual investors.*
...
*Investor Shares will still be used in certain situations, such as in retirement plans and fund-of-funds investments.
The individual 401k page still says Investor Shares are your choices.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by retiringwhen » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:35 pm

jeffyscott wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:28 pm
Perhaps the theoretical cost impact for VTSAX will be more like what I calculated for the 500 index as that's not used in the fund of funds?

In reality, I'd not expect any actual change. I doubt vanguard would do this and then turn around and jack up expense ratios.
I think you are on to the difference between VFIAX and VTSAX, VTSAX is the core US stock fund for the LifeStrategy and Target Date Funds. I peaked and the Target Date 2015 fund at $15B assets and 33% is in VTSAX. So we can assume that a good portion of the $126B of Investor Shares in VTSAX are actually in those funds.

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Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by MnD » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:56 am

ReformedSpender wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:32 am
Looks like your suspicions were right. Vanguard change admiral shares of 38 mutual fund to 3k minimum and closed the investor share class on a select few

https://investornews.vanguard/our-index ... en-better/

:beer
I wish my crystal ball worked so well for equity price movements! :mrgreen:
Looks like the battle within Vanguard between offering lowest costs for nearly everyone versus only for high rollers is tipping in favor to the average investor given the raft of steady improvements in this area by Fidelity and Schwab.

My next prediction is a revamping and re-release of the VanguardAdvantage account for the commoner. It's unavailable to most at Vanguard, grossly uncompetitive with Schwab and Fidelity at the Voyager Select level and even lacking for Flagship customers (doesn't reimburse ATM fees).

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/help/FAQVAAContent.jsp
What is a VanguardAdvantage account?
A VanguardAdvantage account lets you consolidate and manage your investment and cash management needs in one convenient place. You get the ability to trade stocks, bonds, certificates of deposit (CDs), and non-Vanguard mutual funds, plus you get cash management features, including unlimited checkwriting, a VanguardAdvantage Visa® Gold debit card, and optional electronic bill payment.

What fees are associated with a VanguardAdvantage account?
Category Fee
Flagship annual fee No fee
Voyager Select annual fee $30
Electronic bill payment Voyager Select clients pay $4.95 per month; Flagship clients pay no fee.
Insufficient funds fee $20
Stop payment fee $15
Checkbook reorder fee Voyager Select clients pay $9.95 per 120 checks; Flagship clients pay no fee.
ATM fees No fees at PNC Bank–affiliated ATMs across the country, but other banks may charge nominal fees.
Overdraft through margin—interest rates Margin rate information

TIAX
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:19 pm

Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by TIAX » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:15 pm

MnD wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:56 am
My next prediction is a revamping and re-release of the VanguardAdvantage account for the commoner. It's unavailable to most at Vanguard, grossly uncompetitive with Schwab and Fidelity at the Voyager Select level and even lacking for Flagship customers (doesn't reimburse ATM fees).
And unlike your last prediction, this one could actually help bogleheads :happy .

acanthurus
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:02 am

Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by acanthurus » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm

Vanguard Admiral shares were available for purchase at Schwab today (VTSAX, VTIAX, VBILX, etc). $3K min. They previously were available for "institutional" customers only, availability now says "open" instead.

b0B
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:39 am

Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by b0B » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:43 pm

acanthurus wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:30 pm
Vanguard Admiral shares were available for purchase at Schwab today (VTSAX, VTIAX, VBILX, etc). $3K min. They previously were available for "institutional" customers only, availability now says "open" instead.
Ooh! This is news! I started a thread here to collect such news.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=264566

pdavi21
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Vanguard investor class shares on their way out?

Post by pdavi21 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:46 pm

Yes.
No one in their right mind buys Index Funds.
They go ETF until they can afford Admiral (some stay in ETF for the quick buying/selling and/or for foolish/prohibited market timing).

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