Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

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Random Walker
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Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by Random Walker » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am

https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave

marcopolo
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am

Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am
https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave

Dave,

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just recently, you admitted to not understanding very much about how taxes on investments work, like not knowing the difference between qualified and non-qualified dividend taxation( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=262924&hilit=divid ... 0#p4196070), but now you are pontificating on the virtues of long/short tax management strategies!?!

If we are going to throw around meaningless performance comparisons, SP500 is about flat for the year, QRPRX is down about 7.5%, and Bonds were UP yesterday.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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vineviz
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by vineviz » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am

marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am
https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave

Dave,

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just recently, you admitted to not understanding very much about how taxes on investments work, like not knowing the difference between qualified and non-qualified dividend taxation( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=262924&hilit=divid ... 0#p4196070), but now you are pontificating on the virtues of long/short tax management strategies!?!

If we are going to throw around meaningless performance comparisons, SP500 is about flat for the year, QRPRX is down about 7.5%, and Bonds were UP yesterday.
[Response to OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

marcopolo
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am

vineviz wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am
marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am
https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave

Dave,

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just recently, you admitted to not understanding very much about how taxes on investments work, like not knowing the difference between qualified and non-qualified dividend taxation( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=262924&hilit=divid ... 0#p4196070), but now you are pontificating on the virtues of long/short tax management strategies!?!

If we are going to throw around meaningless performance comparisons, SP500 is about flat for the year, QRPRX is down about 7.5%, and Bonds were UP yesterday.
[Response to OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Perhaps that came across harsher than I had intended (Sorry Dave!). I think Dave provides a lot of interesting information in his various post, and I have had several productive discussion with him.

But, I did find it curious that he makes many statements about the tax benefits of these investments that are somewhat complex. Given his previous statements about not understanding taxes very well, I think it is reasonable to ask how much of what he says he actually understands. It goes to how much credence a reader should give to his assessment.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

Random Walker
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by Random Walker » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:55 am

Marcopolo,
I think I understand fairly well what I am invested in. I think for an amateur investor, I understand it very well. If I were a professional, the bar would be higher, and perhaps way higher depending on the type of professional. Yes I did recently admit that I don’t know a lot about taxes. That’s not really a very big “admit”; I may well have a few darker secrets. I’m not at all “pontificating”. Pontificating implies a significant volume of blow hard hot air. That’s not really my nature. I’m just making Larry’s essays available for discussion on this board. And I figure it’s better for me to read the article, summarize a bit, and say a bit of what I think from my amateur perspective, than to blindly post the articles.

Have I “drunk the koolaid”. Yes, I guess I have. But I have drunk it with my eyes wide open and coming from an extreme cost matters hypothesis, efficient markets, low ER, Boglehead, common sense bias. Moreover, I think the more one understands, the more he appreciates the internal consistency, clarity of thought, and steadfast belief in nearly efficient markets, behind Larry’s writings. My personal common sense, Econ 101, chemical equilibrium bias is to be a TSM investor. But what is one to do when a lot of academic evidence contradicts his world view. I see only two options. Ignore the evidence and stick with personal world view, or modify the personal world view. There are trade offs involved in converting from ultra low cost do it yourself TSM investor to higher cost advisor, asset class, factor, alternative investor. Despite “drinking the koolaid”, I think my eyes are fairly wide open for an amateur investor as to these tradeoffs. Some of these tradeoffs include costs of all types (both positive and negative): expense ratios, advisor fees, portfolio efficiency, taxes, tax loss harvesting, securities lending, benefits of tax managed funds, tracking error, behavioral errors, and my time and enjoyment of investing. And lastly, there is the issue of “stuff I don’t even know that I don’t know”. I’m sure there are some unknown costs associated with that! So having said that, any thoughts on Larry’s essay?

Dave
Last edited by Random Walker on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vineviz
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by vineviz » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:03 am

marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am
vineviz wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am
marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am
https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave

Dave,

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just recently, you admitted to not understanding very much about how taxes on investments work, like not knowing the difference between qualified and non-qualified dividend taxation( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=262924&hilit=divid ... 0#p4196070), but now you are pontificating on the virtues of long/short tax management strategies!?!

If we are going to throw around meaningless performance comparisons, SP500 is about flat for the year, QRPRX is down about 7.5%, and Bonds were UP yesterday.
[Response to OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Perhaps that came across harsher than I had intended (Sorry Dave!). I think Dave provides a lot of interesting information in his various post, and I have had several productive discussion with him.

But, I did find it curious that he makes many statements about the tax benefits of these investments that are somewhat complex. Given his previous statements about not understanding taxes very well, I think it is reasonable to ask how much of what he says he actually understands. It goes to how much credence a reader should give to his assessment.
I appreciate that. I just think it’s more productive to discuss WHAT is said rather than WHO said it.

I don’t see anything in the OP that is incorrect or even misleading, for instance, but if there is then I’d value having that pointed out over having judgement passed about a valued forum member’s intellect.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

marcopolo
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:37 am

vineviz wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:03 am
marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am
vineviz wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am
marcopolo wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am
https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave

Dave,

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just recently, you admitted to not understanding very much about how taxes on investments work, like not knowing the difference between qualified and non-qualified dividend taxation( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=262924&hilit=divid ... 0#p4196070), but now you are pontificating on the virtues of long/short tax management strategies!?!

If we are going to throw around meaningless performance comparisons, SP500 is about flat for the year, QRPRX is down about 7.5%, and Bonds were UP yesterday.
[Response to OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Perhaps that came across harsher than I had intended (Sorry Dave!). I think Dave provides a lot of interesting information in his various post, and I have had several productive discussion with him.

But, I did find it curious that he makes many statements about the tax benefits of these investments that are somewhat complex. Given his previous statements about not understanding taxes very well, I think it is reasonable to ask how much of what he says he actually understands. It goes to how much credence a reader should give to his assessment.
I appreciate that. I just think it’s more productive to discuss WHAT is said rather than WHO said it.

I don’t see anything in the OP that is incorrect or even misleading, for instance, but if there is then I’d value having that pointed out over having judgement passed about a valued forum member’s intellect.
I am not questioning anyone's intellect. But, we all have various level of knowledge in different areas.

If someone in a post said they don't know much about brain surgery, then a few days later went on to post about the benefits of particular type of brain surgery, including complex details of such a procedure and why they are beneficial. You don't think it would be reasonable to question such an assessments, even if they happen to be correct?

We may differ on that. I understand your point.

To be honest, I don't know enough about the intricacies of long/short strategies to know whether or not what was in the post above is correct or not. Many readers probably don't either. I would like to think the OP does.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

marcopolo
Posts: 1272
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by marcopolo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:53 am

Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:55 am
Marcopolo,
I think I understand fairly well what I am invested in. I think for an amateur investor, I understand it very well. If I were a professional, the bar would be higher, and perhaps way higher depending on the type of professional. Yes I did recently admit that I don’t know a lot about taxes. That’s not really a very big “admit”; I may well have a few darker secrets. I’m not at all “pontificating”. Pontificating implies a significant volume of blow hard hot air. That’s not really my nature. I’m just making Larry’s essays available for discussion on this board. And I figure it’s better for me to read the article, summarize a bit, and say a bit of what I think from my amateur perspective, than to blindly post the articles.

Have I “drunk the koolaid”. Yes, I guess I have. But I have drunk it with my eyes wide open and coming from an extreme cost matters hypothesis, efficient markets, low ER, Boglehead, common sense bias. Moreover, I think the more one understands, the more he appreciates the internal consistency, clarity of thought, and steadfast belief in nearly efficient markets, behind Larry’s writings. My personal common sense, Econ 101, chemical equilibrium bias is to be a TSM investor. But what is one to do when a lot of academic evidence contradicts his world view. I see only two options. Ignore the evidence and stick with personal world view, or modify the personal world view. There are trade offs involved in converting from ultra low cost do it yourself TSM investor to higher cost advisor, asset class, factor, alternative investor. Despite “drinking the koolaid”, I think my eyes are fairly wide open for an amateur investor as to these tradeoffs. Some of these tradeoffs include costs of all types (both positive and negative): expense ratios, advisor fees, portfolio efficiency, taxes, tax loss harvesting, securities lending, benefits of tax managed funds, tracking error, behavioral errors, and my time and enjoyment of investing. And lastly, there is the issue of “stuff I don’t even know that I don’t know”. I’m sure there are some unknown costs associated with that! So having said that, any thoughts on Larry’s essay?

Dave
Dave,

Thanks for the response.

As i mentioned in response to vineviz, my initial post came across much harsher than i had intended. I apologize for that.

I know you are fully bought into this approach, it was not clear to me from the context of the post relative to previous discussion that you understood the details of these methods, rather than just providing a synopsis of the article.

If you are comfortable with your understanding of these complex strategies, and are investing in them accordingly, then that is all that matters.
I appreciate much of the information you bring to the forum, and wish you the best outcomes.

Marcopolo

PS. I don't really have any thoughts on the article other than to say, for me the added complexity and cost do not appear to be worth the potential upside. I am sure other people come to different conclusions. That debate has been hashed out in way too many threads lately :happy
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

megabad
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by megabad » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:09 pm

Random Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am
https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... nopaging=1

Conventional wisdom says that high turnover strategies are tax inefficient. In this article Larry reviews two papers showing that Long/Short high turnover strategies can be very tax efficient. They can be managed in a tax aware fashion where the tax benefits come mostly from the short positions. The tax benefits are positively correlated with market returns. The short positions generate losses at exactly the time when other positions in the portfolio are generating gains. Tax aware investing that takes advantage of short positions can be more beneficial to the taxable investor than the passive long only counterpart.

At the end of the article, Larry mentions QRPRX. That is the AQR Alterntive Risk Premia Fund. It is a tax aware leveraged long/short fund that invests in 6 styles across 3 asset classes. The 6 styles are value, momentum, defensive, carry, trend, variance risk premium. The asset classes are equities, bonds, currencies. Of note, the S&P 500 was down 3.24% yesterday and QRPRX was unchanged.

Bogleheads are extremely cost conscious. It’s important for us though to appreciate that there is way more to costs than just the expense ratio. Taxes, portfolio inefficiency, and behavioral errors are real costs as well.

Dave
Admittedly did not read the whole article, just parts. TLDR (sorry Larry) but still interesting.

I agree that there can be tax advantages to short positions being used to offset long term gains and enjoyed reading about that data. I did not investigate the data behind the presented numbers but the article seems to indicate that this benefit can be a few hundred basis points. But concurrently with Dave's last three sentences above, I would emphasize the reverse--that there is much more to costs than taxes. Investing in QRPRX will cost a few hundred basis points in expense ratio alone. Additionally AQR requires advisor to access (unless I invest $5 mil). This may be a good investment or not, but taxes should not be the only consideration though they certainly can be one of many.

Additionally, I have not yet spoken to a CFP, CFA, or anyone in the advising world that has volunteered to take on the entirety of tax and portfolio management for me. All have directed me to a separate accountant, tax guy, etc. I think to really reap all the tax benefits from this strategy and others (as Larry writes) you need to control your personal tax situation as well. I think it is a huge gap that most financial advisors are not able to fill should you need/want that level of service. Or perhaps I am just not wealthy enough to encounter (or to justify) a high end firm that can do all this?

garlandwhizzer
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by garlandwhizzer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:18 pm

In any discussion of tax advantaged investing the point should be made that TSM is highly tax efficient. Its dividends, currently less than 2%, are essentially 100% qualified and therefore get long term capital gains tax treatment rather than as ordinary income. Since trading is minimized in TSM there are have been no capital gains all. Using that roughly 2% dividend estimate, you know beforehand what your annual tax liability from TSM is going to be and can plan for that expense. Actively trading funds generate capital gains, both long term and short term, the latter of which is treated as ordinary income, and the amount of this tax burden varies from year to year and is not known until reported at the end of the year. Sometimes actively trading funds lose money during a year but at the same time generate taxes due to the capital gains generated from trading. That's an unfortunate combo--your fund loses money and yet creates taxes that must be paid. Unlike TSM, significant and nasty tax surprises can show up too late to plan for them in any frequent trading fund. That happened to me once, a lesson I'll never forget.

Garland Whizzer

gtwhitegold
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by gtwhitegold » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:54 pm

Larry mentioned 130/30 funds in general in the article and QRPRX, but didn't mention AQR's relaxed constraint funds specifically. I'm curious if they are treated as tax aware.

stlutz
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by stlutz » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:28 pm

It should be noted that the research paper is comparing a high-turnover long-short strategy with a high-turnover long-only strategy. It is not comparing a high-turnover long-short strategy with a low-turnover long-only strategy.

Of course the later is mostly what people here are doing. Nothing wrong the paper, it's just not the comparison I'm most interested in as the paper isn't looking at my current investment approach and suggesting something better.

Greenman72
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by Greenman72 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:24 pm

megabad wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:09 pm

Additionally, I have not yet spoken to a CFP, CFA, or anyone in the advising world that has volunteered to take on the entirety of tax and portfolio management for me. All have directed me to a separate accountant, tax guy, etc. I think to really reap all the tax benefits from this strategy and others (as Larry writes) you need to control your personal tax situation as well. I think it is a huge gap that most financial advisors are not able to fill should you need/want that level of service. Or perhaps I am just not wealthy enough to encounter (or to justify) a high end firm that can do all this?
I am a CPA/PFS and CFA. I do taxes, financial planning, and portfolio management. Moreover, I integrate all three disciplines, which is something most financial professionals cannot do. (Or at least they can’t do well.).

There are some others like me out there who can do it, and don’t have $10m minimums. (My minimum is $250k, except for HENRYs.) You just have to look around.

May I suggest you start by searching for someone who is a CPA/PFS? The PFS credential is virtually identical to the CFP, but is only given to CPA’s.

Greenman72
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by Greenman72 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:30 pm

https://account.aicpa.org/eWeb/dynamicp ... lwebsearch

Try using this tool to find a PFS.

Also, about the article itself—I usually like Larry’s articles. They are well thought out and academically sound. He is also very eloquent and not at all boring, even on boring topics.

Unfortunately, I don’t often find much actionable advice on his articles.

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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:28 pm

^^^ Thanks! I have added CPA / PFS to the wiki. See: Financial planner (Certified Public Account (CPA))

Please review.
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Re: Larry Swedroe: Long/Short Portfolios & Taxes

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:30 pm

With regards to some earlier posts, several off-topic comments and one post were removed. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones.

...At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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