E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

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Klaxton
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E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Klaxton » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm

I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?

mhalley
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by mhalley » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:38 pm

I don’t know much about fisher but doubt it is a huge improvement over EJ. Vanguard is def the way to go.

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Nestegg_User
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Nestegg_User » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:41 pm

I would SERIOUSLY have you look at threads on Fisher...
(I certainly wouldn’t darken their door)...

they have a habit of having extremely high equities in whatever they want someone set up in, and with you at 75, that’s entirely too high. They also have very high er’s, so leaving EJ for Fisher definitely DOESN’T get you where you need to go. You would be better off having Vanguard (managed @ 0.3%) or Schwab (self directed, otherwise I think it’s about 0.5% for their managed services)...(don’t know Fido’s (someone can chime in) rather than either of your suggestions.

Obviously with 64 funds, there’s going to be significant overlap... but it’s a way for EJ to look like they are doing something... but it has the concomitant problem of resulting in lots of FEES by them to close down the account (and real headaches when doing taxes, as well)


[we do our own self directed portfolio w/ Schwab... with almost all reps, we haven’t been pressured into anything... and the platform is fairly easy to work with... although bonds are a little harder to get full info on, but bond funds are easy to get]

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steve roy
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by steve roy » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:04 pm

One question: what’s the simplest, lowest cost, most diversified (and appropriate) asset allocation for someone my age?

(Probable answers—30/70% three fund portfolio; Target Date Income Fund; LifeStrategy Conservative Growth fund w/ 5% of assets in Money Market fund.)

You would be well-served to have only 25-35% of assets in equities. At most, 50%.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by mhadden1 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:57 pm

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.
Gosh, that is a lot to pay in fees. And, no talk that you can have with the EJ guy will really help matters, although you may encounter low visibility conditions due to the smoke he starts to blow. I would take measures to stop paying large amounts of fees. Many clever people on the forum will be happy to help you figure out how to do that.
Oh I can't, can I? That's what they said to Thomas Edison, mighty inventor, Thomas Lindberg, mighty flyer,and Thomas Shefsky, mighty like a rose.

Miriam2
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Miriam2 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:09 pm

Klaxton wrote: I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.
Your "fees and charges" will add up to $72,500 in five years, assuming they don't raise their fees and charges :wink:
Are there any sales loads you should add to their "take-out" pot?

Remember, not only are you paying $14,500 a year for fees and charges, but that you also have removed $14,500 from your portfolio - which means that money is no longer in your portfolio to compound up. In five years, you will have removed $72,500 from your portfolio. In addition, that means that $72,500 is no longer working for you and you lost what money it could have compounded up - so you lost more than $72,500.

Ask Fisher about that compounding of fees concept.

Jack Bogle calls it:
The Magic of compounding returns, the Tyranny of compounding costs. . . it is the relentless rules of humble arithmetic . . . Where returns are concerned, time is your friend. But where costs are concerned, time is your enemy.
"The Little Book of Common Sense Investing," (10th Ed) ch 4.

Momus
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Momus » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:14 pm

Hmmm if you have large capital gain with EJ, how do you convert it to Vanguard? You are kind of stuck now, no?

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:49 pm

Momus wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:14 pm
Hmmm if you have large capital gain with EJ, how do you convert it to Vanguard? You are kind of stuck now, no?
You don't have to sell everything to leave. Get a list of holdings and ask your new custodian what they can take in-kind. You increase your performance 1% just by getting out of AUM costs.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:13 pm

The simple way out: Call Vanguard. Ask them how to transfer. They will give you instructions on how to best make the transfers for the cheapest cost. Then choose the asset allocation you want and match it to the appropriate target date fund. At 0.13%, $1.3M will cost you $1690 per year.

There are ways to go cheaper, but compared to the BMW cost that Jones or Fisher will charge you, this isn't at all bad.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

Momus
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Momus » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:46 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:49 pm
Momus wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:14 pm
Hmmm if you have large capital gain with EJ, how do you convert it to Vanguard? You are kind of stuck now, no?
You don't have to sell everything to leave. Get a list of holdings and ask your new custodian what they can take in-kind. You increase your performance 1% just by getting out of AUM costs.
Good info.

So you still stuck with high ER, but no longer pay AUM.

Bonehead3
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Bonehead3 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:14 pm

There is a reason Vanguard is as large as they are. EJ likes to churn to make money. Their goals are not yours. Theirs is to transfer as much from your accounts to their accounts. I know ..

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Stinky
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Stinky » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:09 pm

Lots of good advice given above.

OP, please give us a report back on Fisher fees. I expect that they'll be in the same zip code as EJ.
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ivk5
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by ivk5 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:11 am

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

...

I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Before jumping from frying pan to fire, it might be worth taking some time to reflect on why you are leaving EJ and what lessons you think you should draw from your experience with them.

You should be able to find out everything you need to know about Fisher without a face-to-face sales pitch.

Btw, your post suggests you may not yet have a handle on the total costs you are paying with a firm like EJ (which may include, in addition to direct fees, things like loads, commissions, and fund expenses, to name a few). The annuity may have all sorts of added fees in addition to the CDSC (eg mortality & expense, riders, admin fees, etc)

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started

fundseeker
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by fundseeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:33 am

Makes me sad to read about people paying that much (> $1,000/month in this case), when a fee only advisor might be much cheaper, or maybe don't pay anyone anything. Just read and learn and do it yourself. At 75, you may have plenty of time and it would stimulate the brain. Re Fisher, I can't even stand to watch their commercials for some reason.

Glad you are realizing the fees are ridiculous! I'm pretty sure you'd never write EJ or Fisher or anyone else a check each month for $1,200 to watch your money!

Good luck.
Last edited by fundseeker on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

retiredjg
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by retiredjg » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:06 am

Here are some earlier threads about Fisher. I don't see any point in going for the appointment.

https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... g&q=Fisher+

Seems like frying pan/fire to me.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Dandy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:49 am

Some "advisers" complicate the client's portfolio because it makes it seem so overwhelming for them to consider managing it themselves. I would stay away from them and from Fisher. VG is cheaper but you basically have to follow their idea which tends to be Total Stock, Total International Stock and Total Bond and/or Total International Bond funds. Not bad and should be lower cost. The key will be the overall allocation for your age and risk tolerance.

I would also have much more trust in their advice/recommendations than almost any other source.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by dbltrbl » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:59 am

Hi Klaxton,

My nickels worth. Cancel the meeting with Fisher person. I know this is Vanguard board but at your age, I would suggest simplicity (like many others here) over anything else.

My suggestion is to go with Fidelity's Four in one index fund. You have one fund with Equities and bonds. Just one fund to deal with and low costs.
They are 24x7 phone available and depending on where you are located, they may have physical office within driving distance. :sharebeer

Good Luck.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by rkhusky » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:00 am

steve roy wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:04 pm
One question: what’s the simplest, lowest cost, most diversified (and appropriate) asset allocation for someone my age?

(Probable answers—30/70% three fund portfolio; Target Date Income Fund; LifeStrategy Conservative Growth fund w/ 5% of assets in Money Market fund.)

You would be well-served to have only 25-35% of assets in equities. At most, 50%.
+1

For example, by using Vanguard's Target Retirement Income fund, the yearly cost on $1.3M would be $1,690. If you went with Vanguard's PAS, that would be an additional $3,900, although you might be able to save some on the fund expenses if they put you into something a bit lower cost.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by prairieman » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:35 am

I feel for the OP. EJ has high yearly costs and investments scattered among 64 funds. If he’s owned them a long time then there will be serious tax consequences to simplifying the portfolio with Vanguard.
I would stay clear of Fisher, move to Vanguard, and make it a five year project to slowly simplify the portfolio. Simplify all of the IRA stuff right away (after the transfer) and gradually transfer the rest, keeping track of and minimizing tax consequences while maximizing expense reductions.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:19 am

I think 64 different funds is a record for this forum as far as i can remember.

My quick advice is that there is a DIY solution for anyone at Vanguard. They can range from a super simple single fund approach, to a still pretty simple 3-4 fund portfolio.

Fidelity is another option and I have read they have better customer service. But the fact that you found this forum probably means you can handle Vanguard's online interface.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by aspirit » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:28 am

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?


I'm interested, maybe this rant helps.
Your questions should be 'how do you make money' advising me,..w/your announcing its being recorded, push a button on your autos key FOB holding it out a bit for effect, then ask for it in writing.
And record it if your able. That's the way to end this EJ investment circus.

Another question could be about these individual equites/ETFs "front loads", back end "commissions", ExpenseRatio's, AssetsUnderMgts(14.5k) AFAYK include or exclude anything else? Do they lend your securities out for trading-shorting purposes? Do you get compensated for that?(not usually). Are all costs consolidated into your recognized 14.5K costs? Might be, but I doubt it. What do they charge you & your funds to EXIT their custodianship ? Inquire about their individual stock/bond/ETF and MF trading costs, all the same costs?

Request or demand a written "in-force illustration" package for the last 7 years, and EJs going forward costs projections :wink: for tax purposes. :shock: Then review it carefully.
You might be able to leverage this new information to facilitate a clean, no cost exit from EJones reigns. Give it a try.

Additionally, if I recall correctly Klaxton, a decade or two back, FISHER Investments sold almost exclusively annuities(I may be wrong, I do not think so). Wiki's are malleable, I do not trust wiki's biases myself, i'm sure Fisher investments cleaned and amended theirs. Their commercials claiming they do not sell annuities are lies that will fade away in minor settlements if necessary.

That info might help you decide weather or not to go to Fisher investments appointment. EJ, Putnam, Raymond James, etc. & Fisher investments are all birds of the same feather.(imo)

You might be able to simply sign something having VG become your funds custodian, they might take it over from there w/a PAS. I do not know. I'd bet EJs trys cutting your costs to retain your business. Then they'll soak you elsewhere.

64 ETF's/Funds, = seems you've learned a lesson or so already Klaxton.
Hope that adds to your queries terms. Yes, I helped someone else do this when EJ changed their mgt. terms about 1-2yrs back during that feel good fiduciary rule nonsense that has since been gutted by the same administration that drew it up w/in its first yr. enacted. The financial lobby is in the top 3 lobbies in D.C. Over'n out!
Good luck!
Time & tides wait for no one. A man has to know his limitations. | "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" | — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild ~

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by RadAudit » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:43 am

I'd ask what is the asset allocation of his proposed portfolio for my situation. The reason is that the asset allocation is probably responsible for 90% of the variance in the return of the portfolio, IIRC.

I'd also ask him how to achieve the proposed asset allocation with the fewest number of funds.

I'd also want to know the costs to invest in those funds - ERs, AUM, sales charge (loads and 12b charges.)

If those numbers don't match with what you have in mind, don't invest with that firm.

By the way, from what I hear from Fisher's ad campaign on TV, they don't believe mutual funds are the way to go for making money in the stock market. If they want to put you in to individual stocks, the question would be how do they figure on beating the market averages with a diversified portfolio long term after the costs to invest? (Hint: Unless they are really, really good it probably won't be done - according to Bogle, Sharpe, and a number of others.)
Last edited by RadAudit on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by bradpevans » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:55 am

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?
I was getting calls from Fisher. Once i said "I don't want to work with an Assets Under Management" (aum) model, they stop calling.

FWIW, I think Edward Jones "angle" is to be your friend and make money.
Fisher is more "we can beat the market" with our tools and knowledge.

I'd avoid both.

Even though you think of it as "transfer out", paper-work wise its "transfer in"
So see what Vanguard can "transfer in" without triggering sales / taxes.

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unclescrooge
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by unclescrooge » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:20 pm

They will charge more than what you're currently paying in their AUM model.

They will liquidate everything and put you in stocks. There have been several lawsuits were seniors were inappropriately invested in stock-heavy portfolios resulting in severe losses in market downturns.

If you have taxable accounts, individual stock positions is very tax inefficient. Especially if you want to get out.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by rgs92 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:46 pm

Fisher is terrible. They have been sending me fancy glossy paper mail packages for 20+ years. I once spent some time investigating their services and found they have high fees and pretty bad results. They pick stocks (and not too well it seems).
Stick to Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab/etc.

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Klaxton
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Klaxton » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:05 pm

Thanks everyone for your respected advice. Quite a range of advice from being in the 'frying pan' to faux recording the conversation to specific advice. I have cut and pasted all of your comments and will develop a question checklist, that is IF I have the meeting.
I responded to a phone call and agreed to meeting with someone. I emailed back and asked if the 'someone' is a financial advisor, his/her qualifications/experience (peddler or the real thing) and if they are a fiduciary. After two days, I have not received response. I believe I may do what you'al would do. On the other hand, I did make a commitment to ask and respond. Stay tuned...

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:16 pm

Klaxton wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:05 pm
Thanks everyone for your respected advice. Quite a range of advice from being in the 'frying pan' to faux recording the conversation to specific advice. I have cut and pasted all of your comments and will develop a question checklist, that is IF I have the meeting.
I responded to a phone call and agreed to meeting with someone. I emailed back and asked if the 'someone' is a financial advisor, his/her qualifications/experience (peddler or the real thing) and if they are a fiduciary. After two days, I have not received response. I believe I may do what you'al would do. On the other hand, I did make a commitment to ask and respond. Stay tuned...
You are wasting your precious time with Fisher. I would focus on spending my time productively- Fisher is looking for fees/commissions (that is how they eat).
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:18 pm

bradpevans wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:55 am
Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?
I was getting calls from Fisher. Once i said "I don't want to work with an Assets Under Management" (aum) model, they stop calling.

FWIW, I think Edward Jones "angle" is to be your friend and make money.
Fisher is more "we can beat the market" with our tools and knowledge.

I'd avoid both.

Even though you think of it as "transfer out", paper-work wise its "transfer in"
So see what Vanguard can "transfer in" without triggering sales / taxes.
Ask Edward Jones if they can be friends with you “with no money down”. :twisted:
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Klaxton
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Klaxton » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:36 am

OK then:
I got into the "frying pan' with a FI representative (a Vice President BTW and an RIA although I did not ask for proof). Here is quick summary:
1. The 'AUM' or what I call a 'wrap fee' is 1.25% Wow!
2. FI would select a sole 'Custodian' such as a T Rowe Price,schwab or Fidelity. I would get a monthly statement from the Custodian and quarterly statements from FI. Upon a follow-up call to FI I was told that there would be a "very minimal fee" for each stock trade but the amount of which was not confirmed at that time. Was told that there would probably be about 25 trades per year at the most. Now I wonder what other costs might be involved.
3. FI is not 'fee based' but rather 'fee only'.
4. The explained advantage, relative to a mutual fund portfolio is that there are no fund costs such as expense ratios, 121.bs etc.

My concern at this time is to determine what transfer costs there will be as it relates to taxes (long term/short term gains) not that I have decided to do anything at this time and until I have more discussion with a VG Account Transfer Specialist.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:53 am

The steps for checking an advisor's (or advisory firm's) background is in the wiki. See: Investment adviser

You can find a full disclosure at the SEC's IAPD - Investment Adviser Search.

Here you go: IAPD - Investment Adviser Firm Summary - FISHER INVESTMENTS

The fees are in the Part 2 Brochures. Select PRIVATE CLIENT

That 1.25% AUM fee drops to 1.125% (!) over 1 million, lower for higher assets.

I'm surprised that they charge for trades, as that should be part of their asset management. However, they do disclose that they will charge for "other fees".
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by retiredjg » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:36 am
4. The explained advantage, relative to a mutual fund portfolio is that there are no fund costs such as expense ratios, 121.bs etc.
I do not believe it is possible not to charge an expense ratio as that is a cost that is "baked into" a mutual fund every trading day. In other words, if your fund is worth $10 a share on Monday morning, after the day's trading the expenses to run the fund are taken off the top before they determine the price your share is worth after closing on Monday.

It may be true that there are no 12b1 expenses and a few other things that are customarily included in the expense ratio of a mutual fund, but I don't see how it could be true that there is no expense ratio. If your salesman insists that is correct, I'd like to be educated on how it is done.

Furthermore, it is unlikely that the funds they use have low expense ratios, but it is possible.

A reminder about just how expensive a 1.25% AUM is. If you can safely take 4% out of your portfolio, keep in mind that something like 10 - 20% of that will go to taxes. That leaves you with 3.6% - 3.2%. Then you give 1.25% to the salesperson. That leaves you with 2.35% to 1.95% to spend on yourself each year. This is not a good plan.

baritone
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by baritone » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:43 pm

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?
RUN, DON'T WALK away from Edward Jones. I know little about Fisher, but Bogleheads far sharper than I am can give you more detailed advice. I urge you to heed it.

moehoward
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by moehoward » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:39 pm

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?
I just reread your post and notice $14,500 in fees, yikes. My wife and I consider $5K a vacation unit in retirement. Do you know how many nice vacations you can take on that money, every year....

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by lostdog » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:13 pm
The simple way out: Call Vanguard. Ask them how to transfer. They will give you instructions on how to best make the transfers for the cheapest cost. Then choose the asset allocation you want and match it to the appropriate target date fund. At 0.13%, $1.3M will cost you $1690 per year.

There are ways to go cheaper, but compared to the BMW cost that Jones or Fisher will charge you, this isn't at all bad.
+1. Have Vanguard call them and do the work. Target date or Life Strategy fund and you're done.

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by pkcrafter » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:44 pm

I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments
Why? Going from EG to Fisher does not improve anything -- the same problems and costs. Low costs and simplicity are what you should be focusing on. The Fisher guy might be some sort of "advisor" but he works for Fisher and his ultimate goals is to earn money for Fisher. You are the means of doing that.

You have way too many funds and that will take some time to unwind. I think EJ might charge $95/fund to sell or transfer funds. Now ask why they would put you in so many funds.

The following makes Vanguard a no-brainer. Fidelity and Schwab have some very low cost funds, but they are loss leaders (bait) to those companies.

Added:
Unlike most investment firms, we have no owners outside of our clients. Vanguard is owned by the Vanguard funds, which in turn are owned by their shareholders—including your organization if you become a Vanguard fund shareholder. That means we have no conflicting loyalties.
Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.

Niblick5
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Niblick5 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:19 pm

Klaxton, I'm too late to give you a response about Fisher Investments as I'm sure you've decided by now to go or not go. I'll offer this which is based on 9 yrs experience of using FI. In briefhand I would have advised you to Run, not Walk, away from them. Their claims of outperforming the Morgan Stanley World Index are a lie. The 1+% fee on monies under management immediately put me below the Morgan Stanley curve and it only progressively got worse with time. Quarterly calls from my "Executive Advisor" were always positive about how things would get better. When the 2008 meltdown FI was all in with stocks. After the first dip Ken sent a 12 page apology letter and blamed the Treasury Secretary. He stayed with stocks and then the 2nd dip occurred. Ken then entertained us with a 24 page apology document.

I stayed another 5 yrs(yes, call me stupid) and finally had a showdown with their sales people(2 of them) at their nice dinner w/wine at an expensive local hotel. I ask them what my average rate of return had been for 9 yrs. They answered correctly with a little more than 2%. I shared some performances of several typical, low risk Vanguard funds during the same periods and how they were at 5 - 7% avg. There answer was I needed to stay with Fisher for about 17 yrs and all would be well. Another lie, pulling stuff from their butts.

I moved everything to Vanguard, diversified with help from their advisors, and have been most pleased with the results.

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Stinky
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Stinky » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 pm

Niblick5 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:19 pm
Klaxton, I'm too late to give you a response about Fisher Investments as I'm sure you've decided by now to go or not go. I'll offer this which is based on 9 yrs experience of using FI. In briefhand I would have advised you to Run, not Walk, away from them. Their claims of outperforming the Morgan Stanley World Index are a lie. The 1+% fee on monies under management immediately put me below the Morgan Stanley curve and it only progressively got worse with time. Quarterly calls from my "Executive Advisor" were always positive about how things would get better. When the 2008 meltdown FI was all in with stocks. After the first dip Ken sent a 12 page apology letter and blamed the Treasury Secretary. He stayed with stocks and then the 2nd dip occurred. Ken then entertained us with a 24 page apology document.

I stayed another 5 yrs(yes, call me stupid) and finally had a showdown with their sales people(2 of them) at their nice dinner w/wine at an expensive local hotel. I ask them what my average rate of return had been for 9 yrs. They answered correctly with a little more than 2%. I shared some performances of several typical, low risk Vanguard funds during the same periods and how they were at 5 - 7% avg. There answer was I needed to stay with Fisher for about 17 yrs and all would be well. Another lie, pulling stuff from their butts.

I moved everything to Vanguard, diversified with help from their advisors, and have been most pleased with the results.
Fascinating first-person testimony about Fisher Investments.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

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nedsaid
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by nedsaid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:46 pm

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 pm
I am age 75, no spouse, retired and have a portfolio of about $1.3 million 95% of which is with Edward Jones. This year I expect my EJ "fees and charges" to be about $14,500.

With EJ, I have five accounts including an IRA and a Roth IRA plus one annuity which has a CDSC (Contingent Deferred Sales Charge) ending in 2019. I find that there are 64 different funds/ETF's in my EJ portofolio and it seems like way too much to me. The annuity is about 12% of the portfolio and, interestingly, Vanguard funds comprise about 22%. I have had a conversation with Vanguard and would expect to sign up with their personal services.
I have just set an appointment (I consider it tentative) with Fisher Investments (my 'due diligence' is working). At this moment, I don't know if the person is just a peddler or some sort of a 'financial advisor'. I will determine that prior to confirming the meeting (they call several days B4 to confirm)
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?
I haven't dealt with Fisher Investments but I have received their mailings. Ken Fisher is a well known columnist at Forbes and I have read a few of his articles. Seems like a sensible guy. Their portfolios involve individual stocks and high stock allocations, to me this is a non-starter. For one thing, using Index Funds, ETFs, and low cost factor products is much more efficient and you can get the same thing with simpler portfolios. Also, I have been there, done that, bought that T-Shirt with high stock allocations. As you get older, you just need to de-risk your portfolio, pretty much more bonds and less stocks. They also are, from what I understand, pretty aggressive in their sales tactics.

I have received their mailings, "If your portfolio is over, $XXX,000, do this." My reaction is how do they know I have a fairly sizable retirement portfolio? How am I being singled out for their mailings? That puts me off a bit.

Probably your best bet would be Vanguard's Personal Advisory Service, a hybrid robot/human advisory service. From what I have seen, they will get you into simpler portfolios, probably 4-6 funds. It will certainly be less than 64. They will help with getting things moved over and with managing any tax bite from capital gains.
A fool and his money are good for business.

khh
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by khh » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:56 am

prairieman wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:35 am
I feel for the OP. EJ has high yearly costs and investments scattered among 64 funds. If he’s owned them a long time then there will be serious tax consequences to simplifying the portfolio with Vanguard.
I would stay clear of Fisher, move to Vanguard, and make it a five year project to slowly simplify the portfolio. Simplify all of the IRA stuff right away (after the transfer) and gradually transfer the rest, keeping track of and minimizing tax consequences while maximizing expense reductions.
Could the OP do a tax-free swap by exchanging his stock funds at EJ for a stock index fund at VG?

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by CurlyDave » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:08 am

Klaxton wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:05 pm
... On the other hand, I did make a commitment to ask and respond. Stay tuned...
If I had made an appointment with Vlad the Impaler, I would have no problems breaking it once I found out his true nature.

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nisiprius
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by nisiprius » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:41 am

Be aware of this: from this article, as partly visible without membership and as cited by ddb in this thread:

1)
Fisher's firm to pay $376K to retiree who just wanted to buy his book.

Instead, investment outfit allegedly pressured 64-year-old into cashing out bond portfolio and purchasing equities.
2)
About 80 percent of Fisher's private clients are invested 100 percent in stocks, according to arbitration testimony from Fisher Vice Chairman Andrew Teufel described in the document.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

bradinsky
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by bradinsky » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:16 am

From a meeting I had with a Fisher Investment “officer” a few years back: they believe in 100% equities, they sell you out at the top of the market & buy you back in at the bottom. Imagine that! Slick & persuasive literature, but no hard facts on their recent performance, except for their best year a while back. When I requested recent performance data, they told me to move my portfolio & they would provide the info I asked for. Also, fees well in excess of 1%. Television is flooded with their advertising. Proceed carefully!

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:03 am

Welcome:
Here is my proposal to the Bogleheads Community:
Give me questions to ask, things to confirm. Upon meeting with FI, I will ask the questions and respond back to the Community with the answers given. The Community, in effect, can be a surrogate compadre at my meeting. Anyone interested?
Questions to ask:

1. Would you recommend that I take over managment of my own portfolio and eliminate AUM (assets under management) fees?

2. What are Edward Jones, and now Fisher Investments, doing for me that I can't do myself managing my own portfolio?

3. Besides being charged 1% (or other) AUM fees by Edward Jones, and now Fisher Investments, what other fees/charges/expenses am I being charged over if I manage my own portfolio myself?

4. What do you think of Vanguard VPAS Services with a .3% AUM fee?

5. I have had a consultation with Vanguard VPAS Services and they recommend slowly shifting to a conservative portfolio that fits my needs, provides for me, and is relatively more secure than what you are suggesting or have suggested. How do you feel about that?

6. What does Edward Jones, and now Fisher Investments (or any other Financial Adviser, Wealth Manager, etc) do for me that Vanguard VPAS Services at .3$ AUM fee cannot do?

7. I have posted a portfolio review request at the personal investment finance website: "bogleheads.org" and the expert reviewers there are cleaning up everything that Edward Jones has structured for me, and I suspect, everything that Fisher Investments, and other FA Firms, have suggested for me. What are your thoughts on that?

8. It will cost me nearly nothing to shift all of my same funds under Vanguard, or Schwab, or Fidelity, and manage my own portfolio. Should I do this? How would you feel if you loss your 1% AUM Fee and other charges and expenses, etc, from helping me?

9. I can do #6 at any time on my own without your help. How would you feel if I did that?

*Suggest you reschedule your appointment to do more "due diligence" for your benefit.

*Suggest reading this before taking any action.
GETTING STARTED
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started
*Suggest doing this before taking any action.
Asking Portfolio Questions
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewt ... =1&t=6212

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

j :happy
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

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Stinky
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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by Stinky » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:00 am

Klaxton wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:36 am
OK then:
I got into the "frying pan' with a FI representative (a Vice President BTW and an RIA although I did not ask for proof). Here is quick summary:
1. The 'AUM' or what I call a 'wrap fee' is 1.25% Wow!
2. FI would select a sole 'Custodian' such as a T Rowe Price,schwab or Fidelity. I would get a monthly statement from the Custodian and quarterly statements from FI. Upon a follow-up call to FI I was told that there would be a "very minimal fee" for each stock trade but the amount of which was not confirmed at that time. Was told that there would probably be about 25 trades per year at the most. Now I wonder what other costs might be involved.
3. FI is not 'fee based' but rather 'fee only'.
4. The explained advantage, relative to a mutual fund portfolio is that there are no fund costs such as expense ratios, 121.bs etc.

My concern at this time is to determine what transfer costs there will be as it relates to taxes (long term/short term gains) not that I have decided to do anything at this time and until I have more discussion with a VG Account Transfer Specialist.
OP, can you share the final outcome with us?
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

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Re: E. Jones/Vanguard and now Fisher Investments

Post by LilyFleur » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:39 pm

1. Don't talk to Fisher.
2. Call Schwab. Tell them you want to move your assets to Schwab and you want to speak to/meet with an experienced Schwab advisor. (They want your money, and they will not charge you for this visit. Do all the paperwork with the Schwab advisor. Believe me, they have done this before. Your advisor also should run your entire financial situation through the Schwab proprietary software which includes Monte Carlo simulations and give you a thick report that you can take home and ruminate on.)
3. At age 75, if I were you, I would choose Schwab because their customer service is better than Vanguard. You can certainly buy Vanguard products if you are with Schwab, and there are a number of very good Schwab funds with very low expense ratios. I don't mean to be ageist, but I do anticipate my own cognitive abilities to decline somewhat as time goes on, and I think better customer service that is available 24/7 is simply the better choice for me.

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