Long-term Care Insurance

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:43 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:57 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:55 pm
Insurance salespeople always say that about all forms of insurance.
And yet pretty much everyone buys several kinds of insurance.
But most types of insurance are not as complicated as LTC insurance, aside from universal or variable life insurance.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

pintail07
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by pintail07 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:47 pm

Does her doctor say she needs care? If so, most policies will pay. I have been involved with many claims and NEVER had any issues. Just had a client go on claim and they had been paying for home care, they didn't realize that their policy didn't require a waiting period, payment from first day. For those self insuring, how much do you set aside to cover a claim?

krafty81
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by krafty81 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:50 pm

visualguy wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:46 pm
krafty81 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:15 pm
I went with Mass Mutual. Before I contacted an LTCi specialist, I researched the financial stability of several companies. That left me with four that had the highest Moody ratings. Then I looked at BBB and insurance complaints in my state. Then I looked at rate increases.

Mass Mutual
Mutual of Omaha
Met Life
Northwest Mutual

Broke out.

I took my time before picking MM. Lowest cost, least complaints, no rate increases, good stability. Others fell out for the reasons above. I did bring MOO with me until final pricing. They do a deep dive into your medical record for sure. LTCi guy was very helpful about health interviews, etc. Since I went with MM last year, they announced a price increase but it is for people a decade ago. I called the CEO's office when I heard about the increase and they responded. Hope this helps.
That's great information - thank you. Can you give us an idea of what the premiums are? I know this would vary based on age, health history, etc. but it's still useful to get some idea of what these numbers look like. Also, how much would the policy pay? Say you're paying $200K/yr at a nursing home, and you're there for 5 years, so a total of $1M. How much of that would be paid by the policy?
There are a lot of variables and options to consider in any policy. You really need to spend some time to "tailor" the options to what you need. I think some sort of inflation rider is important but those can cause the policy to get expensive (like a 3% rider) . I got the book Long Term Care for Dummies to help "learn the lingo" and that helped. Everyone has a different situation. I consider us both very healthy. I am a triathlete and my wife is in good shape. One company considered her more healthy that me, the other one was the other way around. They had a our full medical records. Some companies charge more for women because they tend to live longer. MM did not. In the end, it was cheaper to have individual policies than to combine for a "pot" of years. We each got a five-year policy for about 2500 each per year.

visualguy
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by visualguy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:02 pm

pintail07 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:47 pm
Does her doctor say she needs care? If so, most policies will pay. I have been involved with many claims and NEVER had any issues. Just had a client go on claim and they had been paying for home care, they didn't realize that their policy didn't require a waiting period, payment from first day. For those self insuring, how much do you set aside to cover a claim?
A doctor will come to diagnose her cognitive condition (diagnosing Alzheimer's, etc.) I don't think they say if nursing home care is needed or not. They just diagnose medical problems, and that's very difficult with early-stage Alzheimer's, for example. The other problems that cause her mobility issues are clear and well-known, but we'll see if the insurance company agrees that she meets the criteria or not. Not sure yet how they make that determination, or who they send to evaluate that (maybe a doctor - I don't know yet.)

visualguy
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by visualguy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:10 pm

krafty81 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:50 pm
There are a lot of variables and options to consider in any policy. You really need to spend some time to "tailor" the options to what you need. I think some sort of inflation rider is important but those can cause the policy to get expensive (like a 3% rider) . I got the book Long Term Care for Dummies to help "learn the lingo" and that helped. Everyone has a different situation. I consider us both very healthy. I am a triathlete and my wife is in good shape. One company considered her more healthy that me, the other one was the other way around. They had a our full medical records. Some companies charge more for women because they tend to live longer. MM did not. In the end, it was cheaper to have individual policies than to combine for a "pot" of years. We each got a five-year policy for about 2500 each per year.
Great - thanks for the info! Sounds like you might each pay about $70K by the time you need LTC, which is definitely not too bad... What's the maximum total amount that they would pay over those 5 years?

bsteiner
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by bsteiner » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:17 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:17 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:24 pm

There's a fairly narrow 'sandwiched' group for whom LTC insurance might be worthwhile. They are between those who must more-or-less default automatically to Medicaid-assistance (i.e. those who have amassed under something like $500k) and those with $2-3 million or more who can very likely cover any LTC event for as long as needed.
"fairly narrow?"
A plurality of retirees (or near retirees) have a net worth between $500K and $3 million.
That sounds like it's the logical market.

As we've discussed before, I would like to see a policy that covered an unlimited duration, had a longer waiting period (deductible) to bring down the premium for the people at the higher end of this range of assets, and wasn't tied to a life insurance policy or annuity. In the meantime, until an insurance company comes out with such a policy (which may not happen since there are more prospective buyers at the lower end of this range of assets who want to insure the first few years than people at the higher end who want to insure everything after the first few years), if you want this coverage, you have to choose from what exists.

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:29 pm

bsteiner wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:17 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:17 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:24 pm

There's a fairly narrow 'sandwiched' group for whom LTC insurance might be worthwhile. They are between those who must more-or-less default automatically to Medicaid-assistance (i.e. those who have amassed under something like $500k) and those with $2-3 million or more who can very likely cover any LTC event for as long as needed.
"fairly narrow?"
A plurality of retirees (or near retirees) have a net worth between $500K and $3 million.
That sounds like it's the logical market.

As we've discussed before, I would like to see a policy that covered an unlimited duration, had a longer waiting period (deductible) to bring down the premium for the people at the higher end of this range of assets, and wasn't tied to a life insurance policy or annuity.
Yes, such a policy would be far more attractive to most Bogleheads I think. I would be far more interested in it because the first three to five years of care could be self-insured without too much difficulty. It's stays that are significantly longer than could be truly financially detrimental for us and/or require Medicaid to step in. They are also relatively rare, which would seemingly make them a perfect candidate for insurance.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

visualguy
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by visualguy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:49 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:29 pm
Yes, such a policy would be far more attractive to most Bogleheads I think. I would be far more interested in it because the first three to five years of care could be self-insured without too much difficulty. It's stays that are significantly longer than could be truly financially detrimental for us and/or require Medicaid to step in. They are also relatively rare, which would seemingly make them a perfect candidate for insurance.
Not rare enough... For example, strokes that don't kill you, but incapacitate you aren't all that rare. My MIL needed significant care for 20 years from the time she suffered a stroke until she passed away. My dad's cousin has had home care for the last 15 years due to back problems and failed back surgeries (he's on a wheelchair). He has had live-in care for the last few years. I've encountered a bunch of very long-term residents at my Mom's nursing home. One is a former TV actor who suffered a stroke many years ago.

I think another consideration for insurance companies is that many families take on the burden of providing the care until they can't possibly continue to do so. Among other things, there's a financial consideration in this. If insurance was of unlimited duration, there's the risk that people would start using it more - moving on from family care earlier, etc. The statistics on LTC are a bit misleading because they don't typically count family-provided care, for example.

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Artful Dodger
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by Artful Dodger » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:53 pm

visualguy wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:36 pm
Artful Dodger wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:54 pm
In general, there are two triggers that cause benefits to be approved, either cognitive disability, or not being able to perform two actives of daily living (examples - feeding yourself, continence, transferring yourself, bathing, dressing, bathing).
I'm facing this situation right now with my mother. She recently entered a nursing home. So far, my dad has been paying, but she does have LTC insurance. It seems like she has early-stage Alzheimer's, but I don't think a definite diagnosis can be made at this point. She does have mobility issues, and has much difficulty with some of the activities you mentioned, but I'm not sure you can categorically say that she is not able to perform them - sometimes she can, sometimes she can't, and there's a lot of difficulty.

We'll see what the insurance says on this, but we're not very hopeful.

By the way, my dad is also in bad shape, although no Alzheimer's - it's other health issues that make it harder and harder for him to take care of himself.

I'm guessing that both will have to pay out-of-pocket for their care for now even though they have LTC insurance because the company will say that they don't meet the criteria. We'll see... At some point things are likely to get so bad that the insurance company won't be able to say this, but for a while (maybe a long while), I think they could. Even when they finally approve this, not sure what they would agree to pay for exactly.

Lesson for me: don't ignore LTC in retirement planning, and absolutely reserve money for that in savings. Old age easily turns into a nightmare, and not having the money to deal with it would be just horrible. LTC insurance and Medicaid may help at some point, but these aren't the full solution.
Pull out the policy to review the claims process. You'll need to provide them with enough information to substantiate the claim. They will have a department to help you start the process - get you forms, medical forms for doctor, nursing home, etc. If your mom is cognitively impaired to the extent she can't take care of herself, she should qualify. Also check with the nursing home. They likely have someone who can contact the LTC insurer to get the ball rolling. Good luck.

dollarsaver
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by dollarsaver » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 pm

visualguy wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:36 pm
Artful Dodger wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:54 pm
In general, there are two triggers that cause benefits to be approved, either cognitive disability, or not being able to perform two actives of daily living (examples - feeding yourself, continence, transferring yourself, bathing, dressing, bathing).
I'm facing this situation right now with my mother. She recently entered a nursing home. So far, my dad has been paying, but she does have LTC insurance. It seems like she has early-stage Alzheimer's, but I don't think a definite diagnosis can be made at this point. She does have mobility issues, and has much difficulty with some of the activities you mentioned, but I'm not sure you can categorically say that she is not able to perform them - sometimes she can, sometimes she can't, and there's a lot of difficulty.

We'll see what the insurance says on this, but we're not very hopeful.

By the way, my dad is also in bad shape, although no Alzheimer's - it's other health issues that make it harder and harder for him to take care of himself.

I'm guessing that both will have to pay out-of-pocket for their care for now even though they have LTC insurance because the company will say that they don't meet the criteria. We'll see... At some point things are likely to get so bad that the insurance company won't be able to say this, but for a while (maybe a long while), I think they could. Even when they finally approve this, not sure what they would agree to pay for exactly.

Lesson for me: don't ignore LTC in retirement planning, and absolutely reserve money for that in savings. Old age easily turns into a nightmare, and not having the money to deal with it would be just horrible. LTC insurance and Medicaid may help at some point, but these aren't the full solution.
Hi, My Mom and Dad both had LTC. Mom had early-stage Alzheimers and Dad had trouble with balance. I moved them both to a beautiful assisted living facility and immediately applied for their LTC. They had a 90 day waiting period so as soon as I called their company that I wanted LTC to start the 90 days started ticking. LTC sent a rep to their assisted living facility and both approved immediately. Mom because of early-stage Alzheimers and Dad because he needed help with 2 ADL's (dressing and bathing). He was unsteady and he told them he can't fully dress himself and shower himself. This was confirmed by his doctor. For 4 years LTC paid the entire fee of assisted living which was $7500 /month for the two of them to share one bedroom apartment. They got the care they needed and it was wonderful.
Your Mom could be in a memory assisted living place and with or without mobility issues, she qualifies for LTC. For Dad, if any mobility or balance issues that he cannot safely bathe or dress himself, he qualifies. They both can be together in an assisted living place. Good luck!

visualguy
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by visualguy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:40 pm

dollarsaver wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Hi, My Mom and Dad both had LTC. Mom had early-stage Alzheimers and Dad had trouble with balance. I moved them both to a beautiful assisted living facility and immediately applied for their LTC. They had a 90 day waiting period so as soon as I called their company that I wanted LTC to start the 90 days started ticking. LTC sent a rep to their assisted living facility and both approved immediately. Mom because of early-stage Alzheimers and Dad because he needed help with 2 ADL's (dressing and bathing). He was unsteady and he told them he can't fully dress himself and shower himself. This was confirmed by his doctor. For 4 years LTC paid the entire fee of assisted living which was $7500 /month for the two of them to share one bedroom apartment. They got the care they needed and it was wonderful.
Your Mom could be in a memory assisted living place and with or without mobility issues, she qualifies for LTC. For Dad, if any mobility or balance issues that he cannot safely bathe or dress himself, he qualifies. They both can be together in an assisted living place. Good luck!
Thanks - I hope it goes smoothly with the insurance in my parents' case as well.

Just wondering... What do you mean by "assisted living"? My Mom is currently in the nursing home section of a CCRC which also has assisted living. She was never a member of the CCRC, but they did admit her straight to their nursing home (luckily they had room). My understanding is that the assisted living part of the facility provides cleaning, laundary, food, and some activities, but not much else. That may be sufficient for my dad for now, but not for my mom.

It sounds like what you are describing is a nursing home rather than assisted living, unless it's a facility where they send people to provide nursing-home type care at assisted-living apartments? We never researched all the types of facilities out there...

WoW2012
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:36 pm

When my MIL's health took a turn for the worse we had the home care agency file the claim for us. Home care agencies (especially the national chains) file thousands of long term care insurance claims every year. They have systems in place to process claims and get them approved quickly. My MIL's claim was approved in about 3 weeks. All we had to do was give the policy to the manager of the home care agency and sign a couple of HIPAA forms. Before we knew it we got a letter from the insurer explaining that the claim was approved.

ChrisC
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by ChrisC » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:03 pm

visualguy wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:40 pm
dollarsaver wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Hi, My Mom and Dad both had LTC. Mom had early-stage Alzheimers and Dad had trouble with balance. I moved them both to a beautiful assisted living facility and immediately applied for their LTC. They had a 90 day waiting period so as soon as I called their company that I wanted LTC to start the 90 days started ticking. LTC sent a rep to their assisted living facility and both approved immediately. Mom because of early-stage Alzheimers and Dad because he needed help with 2 ADL's (dressing and bathing). He was unsteady and he told them he can't fully dress himself and shower himself. This was confirmed by his doctor. For 4 years LTC paid the entire fee of assisted living which was $7500 /month for the two of them to share one bedroom apartment. They got the care they needed and it was wonderful.
Your Mom could be in a memory assisted living place and with or without mobility issues, she qualifies for LTC. For Dad, if any mobility or balance issues that he cannot safely bathe or dress himself, he qualifies. They both can be together in an assisted living place. Good luck!
Thanks - I hope it goes smoothly with the insurance in my parents' case as well.

Just wondering... What do you mean by "assisted living"? My Mom is currently in the nursing home section of a CCRC which also has assisted living. She was never a member of the CCRC, but they did admit her straight to their nursing home (luckily they had room). My understanding is that the assisted living part of the facility provides cleaning, laundary, food, and some activities, but not much else. That may be sufficient for my dad for now, but not for my mom.

It sounds like what you are describing is a nursing home rather than assisted living, unless it's a facility where they send people to provide nursing-home type care at assisted-living apartments? We never researched all the types of facilities out there...
Let me interject a bit here as we have looked at many types of LTC facilities over the last few years. The nursing home section of the CCRC your mom might be a current resident probably has independent living in residential units, assisted living or home care in residential units, and skilled nursing care in the nursing home section. It's one of the major benefits of a CCRC to have continuous life-cycle care. Assisted living, whether in a CCRC, family care home, assisted living facility (which typically might have a memory care unit), or in your own home, includes medication management and help with ADLs, in most cases by caregivers who are Certified Nursing Assistants/LPNs. In a CCRC or multi-care facilities (like those that have independent, assisted living, and skilled nursing facilities), the facility will likely provide housekeeping, laundry, food service, social activities for residents in both the independent living and assisted living sections.

In the assisted living sections, for those multi-care facilities I've visited over the years for my mother (during her initial onset of dementia), my MIL (with limited mobility and difficulty with transferring , bathing and clothing oneself) and BIl (with MS and cognitive impairment and mobility issues), the care facilities all have different levels of care even within these sections! Some residents are major fall risks, some residents need help with meals/eatings, and some need bathing help. And most of these facilities have separate memory care sections because the care is more intensive for those residents. In many multi-care facilities, it's not uncommon for a husband and wife couple to be in different units, like one being in apartment unit and the other being in the memory care unit.

HereToLearn
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by HereToLearn » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:19 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:35 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:08 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:24 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:09 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:21 pm

Using Genworth's LTC insurance calculator, an opposite gender couple, both age 65, buying a policy with $300 per day maximum benefit ($109,500 maximum annual benefit, about the cost of a nursing home in our area) with a five year maximum benefit period would pay $4,553 each per year, $9,106 for the couple. It would take a little over eight years for them to break-even. Yes, there is some time-value of money at work here, but the couple wouldn't pay that additional $75k estimated taxes all at once; it would be spread out over five years in this instance. Five years after they are done, all of the assets in the trust are protected from Medicaid. That sounds like a good bet to me.

1) Genworth does not have a competitively priced policy right now, except for their group LTCi policy.
Who do you recommend?
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:09 am
2) Why base the cost of care on nursing homes? Most people who need long-term care get their care at home, not in a nursing home. Only 13% of the people who need long-term care receive their care in a nursing home and most of them are only there because they are relying on Medicaid to pay for their care.
You say that your policy has $900k of benefits. How is that structured? It doesn't sound like a typical LTCi policy.
WoW2012 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:09 am
3) Waiting to age 65 to buy long-term care insurance is like waiting to age 50 to start to save for retirement. It might still work, but you're a lot better off the earlier you start.
So are you getting a free lunch by purchasing insurance earlier? And you referred to someone buying LTCi in their 60s in this thread.
Even a couple in their early sixties could get LTCi similar to mine for about $170 per month per spouse, if they're healthy.
Still waiting.

Who do you recommend?
In alphabetical order, I recommend the following long-term care insurance companies:
Auto Owners Life Ins. Co.
Bankers Life & Casualty
Genworth Life Ins. Co.
Massachusetts Mutual Life Ins. Co.
Mutual of Omaha Ins. Co.
National Guardian Life Ins. Co.
New York Life Ins. Co.
Northwestern Mutual
OneAmerica/State Life
Thrivent Financial
Transamerica


You say that your policy has $900k of benefits. How is that structured? It doesn't sound like a typical LTCi policy.

$7,250 per month for 120 months.



So are you getting a free lunch by purchasing insurance earlier? And you referred to someone buying LTCi in their 60s in this thread.

I have no idea what you're asking here. Please re-toss the word salad and try again.
Is that monthly benefit fixed or does it increase annually?

I am in the process of pricing AL for my mother, and starting at a fairly unassisted level of care (medication management, shower supervision and some mobility assistance), I am looking at $9360/month in a small one bedroom suite. LTC carrier will pay 80% of that, or $7500/month. Highest level of care + medication management would run $13K/month. Fortunately, her plan's daily benefit limit will cover 80% of that upper end cost also.

I do not see Brighthouse Financial on your list above. My parents' policy was written by Travelers more than 20 years ago, sold to Met Life, and then maybe Genworth? I don't know when Brighthouse took over, but they are MUCH easier to deal with than whoever I was dealing with nine years ago on my father's policy.

I have very mixed thoughts on LTC. For a person who does not have dementia or suffer something degenerative like Parkinson's or MS, it can be a long process to document the medical necessity. As others have commented, by the time the patient is eligible to use LTC benefits, she needs an advocate to navigate the process.

dollarsaver
Posts: 311
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by dollarsaver » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:12 am

visualguy wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:40 pm
dollarsaver wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 pm
Hi, My Mom and Dad both had LTC. Mom had early-stage Alzheimers and Dad had trouble with balance. I moved them both to a beautiful assisted living facility and immediately applied for their LTC. They had a 90 day waiting period so as soon as I called their company that I wanted LTC to start the 90 days started ticking. LTC sent a rep to their assisted living facility and both approved immediately. Mom because of early-stage Alzheimers and Dad because he needed help with 2 ADL's (dressing and bathing). He was unsteady and he told them he can't fully dress himself and shower himself. This was confirmed by his doctor. For 4 years LTC paid the entire fee of assisted living which was $7500 /month for the two of them to share one bedroom apartment. They got the care they needed and it was wonderful.
Your Mom could be in a memory assisted living place and with or without mobility issues, she qualifies for LTC. For Dad, if any mobility or balance issues that he cannot safely bathe or dress himself, he qualifies. They both can be together in an assisted living place. Good luck!
Thanks - I hope it goes smoothly with the insurance in my parents' case as well.

Just wondering... What do you mean by "assisted living"? My Mom is currently in the nursing home section of a CCRC which also has assisted living. She was never a member of the CCRC, but they did admit her straight to their nursing home (luckily they had room). My understanding is that the assisted living part of the facility provides cleaning, laundary, food, and some activities, but not much else. That may be sufficient for my dad for now, but not for my mom.

It sounds like what you are describing is a nursing home rather than assisted living, unless it's a facility where they send people to provide nursing-home type care at assisted-living apartments? We never researched all the types of facilities out there...
Hi. They were in an assisted living place. The facility did provide cleaning, laundry, 3 meals a day and also assisted both my parents with dressing , showering, all meals, reminders and giving them their meds. Even though my Mom had Alzheimer's , with the extra help they gave her she was able to stay in the same apartment for 3 years with my Dad. LTC paid the monthly rent plus all the extra charges for helping them with ADL's. You needed to need ADL's for LTC to pay the entire bill. I wanted to keep them together as long as possible. Later on I had a private home care helper to give my mother extra help. But the assisted living offered all levels of care. She needed more because of Alzheimer's. Dad had what they call Level II- med mgmt and shower/dressing help. Hope this helps.

2pedals
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by 2pedals » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:49 am

Some folks here have success collect on claims, some have not and some that have not made claims because they expect to be denied after onerous procedures. Insurance companies, long term care facilities, health care, medicaid, different insurance products, oh my! :shock: What is exactly going on here?

different doctor's that will review your case
insurance claim agents that will review your case
different insurance companies
different policies
- insurance that has different waiting periods
- insurance that has different max limits
- insurance that has different term limits
- insurance that has different monthly limits
- insurance that has different co-insurance % amounts
possible rate increases
odds or living longer are increases and greater possible need for LTC
different long term care facilities and companies
different state laws
different chronic conditions that may or may qualify
medicaid if needed
..etc, etc, etc...

I think I am with bsteiner, I want an insurance product that limits my maximum out of pocket expenses. Say for example after I spend 200k to 300k?, insurance covers the rest to protect legacy planning and need to go on medicaid. What am I missing?

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:43 am

2pedals wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:49 am
Some folks here have success collect on claims, some have not and some that have not made claims because they expect to be denied after onerous procedures. Insurance companies, long term care facilities, health care, medicaid, different insurance products, oh my! :shock: What is exactly going on here?

different doctor's that will review your case
insurance claim agents that will review your case
different insurance companies
different policies
- insurance that has different waiting periods
- insurance that has different max limits
- insurance that has different term limits
- insurance that has different monthly limits
- insurance that has different co-insurance % amounts
possible rate increases
odds or living longer are increases and greater possible need for LTC
different long term care facilities and companies
different state laws
different chronic conditions that may or may qualify
medicaid if needed
..etc, etc, etc...

I think I am with bsteiner, I want an insurance product that limits my maximum out of pocket expenses. Say for example after I spend 200k to 300k?, insurance covers the rest to protect legacy planning and need to go on medicaid. What am I missing?

Last year over 300,000 people received benefits from their long-term care insurance policies. Somehow they were able to figure it out.

We took the easy way. We had a home care agency file the claim for us. When my MIL moved to the assisted-living facility all we had to do was fax the facility's notes of care to John Hancock and the benefits continued.

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:49 am

HereToLearn wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:19 am

I have very mixed thoughts on LTC. For a person who does not have dementia or suffer something degenerative like Parkinson's or MS, it can be a long process to document the medical necessity.

If the policy meets the federal guidelines (and most do) "medical necessity" is NOT an issue. The issue is "functionality". It doesn't matter what the underlying medical cause, if the policyholder needs assistance with any 2 of the ADL's, he/she can qualify for benefits.

OR

If the policyholder needs to be supervised for safety reasons, due to a cognitive impairment, he/she can qualify for benefits.


The federal gov't set these standards. Just make sure you buy a policy that meets the federal guidelines. It's called a "tax-qualified" policy OR a "federally-qualified" policy.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:53 am

HereToLearn wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:19 am

I do not see Brighthouse Financial on your list above. My parents' policy was written by Travelers more than 20 years ago, sold to Met Life, and then maybe Genworth? I don't know when Brighthouse took over, but they are MUCH easier to deal with than whoever I was dealing with nine years ago on my father's policy.

Brighthouse does not sell new long-term care insurance policies. How can I recommend someone buy a policy today from a company that does not sell new policies?

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:01 am

2pedals wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:49 am

I think I am with bsteiner, I want an insurance product that limits my maximum out of pocket expenses. Say for example after I spend 200k to 300k?, insurance covers the rest to protect legacy planning and need to go on medicaid. What am I missing?

Since there's no such product, here's a better idea. Put $200K into a tax free muni bond fund, and with the return on that fund buy an LTCi policy with no lifetime cap.

JoeRetire
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by JoeRetire » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:12 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:43 pm
JoeRetire wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:57 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:55 pm
Insurance salespeople always say that about all forms of insurance.
And yet pretty much everyone buys several kinds of insurance.
But most types of insurance are not as complicated as LTC insurance, aside from universal or variable life insurance.
As you said "LTCi does not need to be complicated, and some policies are fairly straightforward."

TravelforFun
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by TravelforFun » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:35 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:53 am
HereToLearn wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:19 am

I do not see Brighthouse Financial on your list above. My parents' policy was written by Travelers more than 20 years ago, sold to Met Life, and then maybe Genworth? I don't know when Brighthouse took over, but they are MUCH easier to deal with than whoever I was dealing with nine years ago on my father's policy.

Brighthouse does not sell new long-term care insurance policies. How can I recommend someone buy a policy today from a company that does not sell new policies?
Wonder why Unum is not on your list? I've been sending them a check every month for the last ten years. :shock:

Dan999
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by Dan999 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:41 pm

I also am with Unum. Had a 70% increase a few years ago. I hope they pay when the time comes.

WoW2012
Posts: 312
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:54 pm

TravelforFun wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:53 am
HereToLearn wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:19 am

I do not see Brighthouse Financial on your list above. My parents' policy was written by Travelers more than 20 years ago, sold to Met Life, and then maybe Genworth? I don't know when Brighthouse took over, but they are MUCH easier to deal with than whoever I was dealing with nine years ago on my father's policy.

Brighthouse does not sell new long-term care insurance policies. How can I recommend someone buy a policy today from a company that does not sell new policies?
Wonder why Unum is not on your list? I've been sending them a check every month for the last ten years. :shock:
UNUM does not sell new long-term care insurance policies. How can I recommend someone buy a policy today from a company that does not sell new policies?

HIinvestor
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by HIinvestor » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:55 pm

Are they still selling LTCi policies with no cap? Last I heard, they were NO longer issuing policies with no caps and having very high premium rate increases on many outstanding policies.

Back when H was a fed employee over a decade ago, all the policies he was sent to look over to potentially buy had caps on them.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:56 pm

Dan999 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:41 pm
I also am with Unum. Had a 70% increase a few years ago. I hope they pay when the time comes.
UNUM incurs about $400,000,000 in LTCi claims every year.
They're paying.

WoW2012
Posts: 312
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:58 pm

HIinvestor wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:55 pm
Are they still selling LTCi policies with no cap? Last I heard, they were NO longer issuing policies with no caps and having very high premium rate increases on many outstanding policies.

Back when H was a fed employee over a decade ago, all the policies he was sent to look over to potentially buy had caps on them.
Yes, there are policies available for sale today that have no lifetime cap.
There are also policies where spouses/partners can share 15 years of benefits.

tj
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by tj » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:34 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:58 pm
HIinvestor wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:55 pm
Are they still selling LTCi policies with no cap? Last I heard, they were NO longer issuing policies with no caps and having very high premium rate increases on many outstanding policies.

Back when H was a fed employee over a decade ago, all the policies he was sent to look over to potentially buy had caps on them.
Yes, there are policies available for sale today that have no lifetime cap.
There are also policies where spouses/partners can share 15 years of benefits.
As you've mentioned, National General doesn't have the cap. Therefore, is it prohibitively expensive?

WoW2012
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:49 pm

tj wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:34 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:58 pm
HIinvestor wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:55 pm
Are they still selling LTCi policies with no cap? Last I heard, they were NO longer issuing policies with no caps and having very high premium rate increases on many outstanding policies.

Back when H was a fed employee over a decade ago, all the policies he was sent to look over to potentially buy had caps on them.
Yes, there are policies available for sale today that have no lifetime cap.
There are also policies where spouses/partners can share 15 years of benefits.
As you've mentioned, National General doesn't have the cap. Therefore, is it prohibitively expensive?

Most people don't need to buy an unlimited policy if they live in a state that has a long-term care partnership program (excluding NY, CA, and CT whose partnership programs are terrible. If you live in one of those 3 states don't buy a partnership policy until these states lower their daily benefit requirements).

The LTC Partnership programs protect your assets dollar for dollar. If your policy runs out of benefits you can apply for Medicaid and your assets will be protected from Medicaid. Period. It's a no-brainer for most of the middle-class.

Should someone with a few million in assets buy an unlimited policy?

I don't have an unlimited policy and I'm fine with it. My wife and I share 10 years of benefits (just under $900K in benefits). I'm good with that. It'll take the sting out of a lengthy period of care. That's all I need.

I could buy an unlimited policy today for about 25% more than the cost of a policy that has 15 years of shared benefits. I don't think the lifetime/unlimited is worth spending 25% more for.

For about the same premium, I could buy either a policy with 15 years of shared benefits paying $200 per day

OR

a policy that is unlimited paying $160 per day.

I'd pick the $200/day for 15 years.

2pedals
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by 2pedals » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:02 pm

I wish bogleheads had a Wiki for LTCi

Nate79
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Location: Delaware

Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by Nate79 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:22 pm

2pedals wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:02 pm
I wish bogleheads had a Wiki for LTCi
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Long-te ... _insurance

2pedals
Posts: 628
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by 2pedals » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:41 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:22 pm
2pedals wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:02 pm
I wish bogleheads had a Wiki for LTCi
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Long-te ... _insurance
Thank you

WoW2012
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:03 pm

2pedals wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:41 pm
Nate79 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:22 pm
2pedals wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:02 pm
I wish bogleheads had a Wiki for LTCi
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Long-te ... _insurance
Thank you

Who wrote this wiki? And how long ago was it?
There are two mistakes just in the first two sentences.

Nate79
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Location: Delaware

Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by Nate79 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:54 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:03 pm
2pedals wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:41 pm
Nate79 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:22 pm
2pedals wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:02 pm
I wish bogleheads had a Wiki for LTCi
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Long-te ... _insurance
Thank you

Who wrote this wiki? And how long ago was it?
There are two mistakes just in the first two sentences.
I flagged your comment so that you can contact a mod to discuss changing the wiki. I don't have any details about the LTCi wiki.

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LadyGeek
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Re: Long-term Care Insurance

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:15 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:54 pm
I flagged your comment so that you can contact a mod to discuss changing the wiki. I don't have any details about the LTCi wiki.
Flag received, thanks.
WoW2012 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:03 pm
Who wrote this wiki? And how long ago was it?
There are two mistakes just in the first two sentences.
If the wiki is incorrect, please post your correction in Suggestions for the Wiki and explain what's wrong.

You can also start a new thread in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum if a consensus or further discussion is needed. Then, post a link to the discussion in the Suggestions for the Wiki and an editor will follow-up.

The page in question: Long-term care insurance

Wiki editors for any page can be seen in the View history tab, which is the top-right corner of the page.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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