[JP Morgan] Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Jerry55
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:56 am
Location: That Toddlin' Town

[JP Morgan] Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Jerry55 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:52 pm

I have a friend who I've been talking to about retirement for maybe 25 years, and my friend took advantage of the best their company offered.
Recently, my friend retired, and somehow, told me today they have the Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 fund as their main. Now, some of the funds we talked about before are still intact...4-6 funds back in the early 1990's, but I wanted to see what this MS 2025 fund was all about, and my jaw hit the floor !!!

I know I've had a few beers in the last 2-3 hours but....am I seeing right ? I'm seeing Sales Charges, Commissions and more crazy stuff.
here's the link.
https://am.jpmorgan.com/JPMorgan/TADF/4 ... e=JPMorgan

Here's their website for the fund and the "Summary Prospectus" is the link from the website....Thoughts ?
I feel hiway robbery...but, I digress. I'm flabbergasted !!!! :annoyed :confused :oops:

https://am.jpmorgan.com/us/en/asset-man ... -4812a3197


EDIT *** I'm not sure how much they put in, as the $$$ amount is usually secretive, but, I suspect less than 100K, maybe less than 50K ***
Last edited by Jerry55 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Retired CSRS on 12/19/2012 @ age 57 w/39 years | Good Bye Tension, Hello Pension !!!

Mr.BB
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Mr.BB » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:02 pm

My favorite part is when they show their average return they say it.....
(Reflects No Deduction for Fees, Expenses or Taxes)

Would love to see their numbers after all the deductions.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm

And yet, it has outperformed Vanguard Target Retirement 2025 since inception?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/fun ... F11%2F2018

MotoTrojan
Posts: 2644
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:20 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm
And yet, it has outperformed Vanguard Target Retirement 2025 since inception?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/fun ... F11%2F2018
How does the AA compare?

Mr.BB
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Mr.BB » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:46 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm
And yet, it has outperformed Vanguard Target Retirement 2025 since inception?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/fun ... F11%2F2018
What about after all the expenses and taxes are deducted?
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

TropikThunder
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by TropikThunder » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:19 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm
And yet, it has outperformed Vanguard Target Retirement 2025 since inception?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/fun ... F11%2F2018
That's not a fair comparison. OP didn't say which share class his friend has (there are 7 with ER's ranging from 0.46% to 1.21%, and you chose the class with the second-lowest ER). Also, PV takes into consideration ER but not commissions and loads. That said, yes the JPM fund did do a little better, but I don't know what their glidepaths looked like.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:48 am

TropikThunder wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:19 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm
And yet, it has outperformed Vanguard Target Retirement 2025 since inception?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/fun ... F11%2F2018
That's not a fair comparison. OP didn't say which share class his friend has (there are 7 with ER's ranging from 0.46% to 1.21%, and you chose the class with the second-lowest ER). Also, PV takes into consideration ER but not commissions and loads. That said, yes the JPM fund did do a little better, but I don't know what their glidepaths looked like.
The R6 class is the only one offered through retirement plans, so that one is probably what the OP has. And the R6 class is cheaper than the class I put into PV.

I’ve never heard of a target date fund within a 401K charging commissions or loads, have you? Outside of a 401K, sure, but OP did not say his friend bought this for his taxable account or IRA.

And who cares what the AA / glide path is? If two target date funds are both intended for 2025 retirees, and one fund outperforms the other on a risk adjusted basis DESPITE carrying a higher ER, doesn’t that mean the outperforming fund’s managers simply did a better job with choosing the AA / glide path? On what other basis would we compare target date funds?

Guys, I get that this is *Bogle*heads, but sometimes it feels like the instant skepticism towards anything non-Vanguard is simply over the top.

Morningstar has given this TDF series a Gold rating. Here is some of what they have to say:
The team has used a consistent approach to asset allocation. It designed the glide path based on participant-behavior research and long-term capital market expectations, which resulted in a more conservative equity allocation than the industry norm during an investor's early saving years and shortly before retirement. The group also has an established tactical-allocation process in place. It follows a two-step approach that dates back to 1999. First, quantitative models suggest asset-class positions based on metrics such as valuations and risk factors. Then, a separate global strategy team overlays qualitative considerations to set the series' short-term tilts.

The series' management team uses a sound approach to manager selection. It aims to combine managers with complementary styles, and the series' managers won't hesitate to remove an underlying fund if it is not meeting expectations. Generally speaking, the manager lineup is solid. During 2017, we upgraded the series' two largest underlying funds: JPMorgan Core Bond JCBUX (15% of the series' assets) was upgraded to Silver, and JPMorgan U.S. Research Enhanced Equity JDEUX (10% of the series' assets) saw an upgrade to Bronze.

Solid results beneath the surface have contributed to an overall impressive record. During the past 10 years through the end of 2017, all of the series' eight vintages placed in their peer group's top decile. According to attribution provided by J.P. Morgan, tactical asset-class positioning and manager selection boosted returns.
The team's thoughtful approach to asset allocation and manager selection earns the series a Positive Process rating. The SmartRetirement funds' glide path is based on empirical research that J.P. Morgan conducted on its record-keeping plan participants. That study revealed that participants' salaries are less stable than many models assume, and they engage in counterproductive practices, such as taking loans from 401(k) accounts. As a result, J.P. Morgan focuses on maximizing the number of participants who can achieve a sufficient level of their pre-retirement income throughout retirement.

The glide path maintains lighter-than-average equity stakes during an investor's early saving years and quickly gets more conservative near retirement. The team regularly re-evaluates its glide path and asset allocation in light of potential changes to factors such as capital market assumptions or participant behavior. In early 2018, a change in capital market assumptions led to sub-asset-class adjustments. Among other changes, management increased foreign equities to 40% from 35% of the stock sleeve. The 2035 through Income funds saw a modest reduction in core bonds in favor of high-yield bonds and emerging-markets debt. We consider such adjustments to be forward-thinking, and it confirms our view that the series will continue to make the necessary adjustments to remain a leader in the target-date space.

To build the SmartRetirement portfolios, Anne Lester and team screen J.P. Morgan's broad lineup of funds for factors such as expected alpha, correlation between strategies, tracking error, and fees. The team can choose from about 70 unique funds across equity, fixed-income, and alternative asset classes that use a range of fundamental and quantitative strategies. Having such an expansive lineup to choose from gives the series an edge versus closed-architecture peers with fewer funds available. Also, the target-date team isn't afraid to fire an in-house manager. In fact, during the past five years, the series' managers removed four underlying J.P. Morgan funds from the mix.

The series' managers intend to hold strategies that complement one another. For instance, within U.S. equities, it mixes analyst-driven funds, such as JPMorgan U.S. Research Enhanced Equity JDEUX, single-manager strategies, like J.P. Morgan Value Advantage JVAYX, and quantitative funds, such as J.P. Morgan Intrepid America JIAPX, in part because they offer low correlations of excess returns.

Overall, the underlying manager lineup is strong. We rate 10 of the series' 25 underlying funds. Eight of those receive Morningstar Medalist ratings, including four Silver-rated funds (which in aggregate represent about 27% of the series' assets) and four Bronze-rated funds (about 20% of assets).

KJVanguard
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:39 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by KJVanguard » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:11 am

Morgan Stanley screwed my late father when he didn't know any better. Once he knew better, he moved his IRA over to Vanguard.

That was 20 years ago and they are still screwing clients. The only difference between a Morgan Stanley broker and a prostitute is that her clients don't know they just got bleeped!

Valuethinker
Posts: 36718
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:54 am

Jerry55 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:52 pm
I have a friend who I've been talking to about retirement for maybe 25 years, and my friend took advantage of the best their company offered.
Recently, my friend retired, and somehow, told me today they have the Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 fund as their main. Now, some of the funds we talked about before are still intact...4-6 funds back in the early 1990's, but I wanted to see what this MS 2025 fund was all about, and my jaw hit the floor !!!

I know I've had a few beers in the last 2-3 hours but....am I seeing right ? I'm seeing Sales Charges, Commissions and more crazy stuff.
here's the link.
https://am.jpmorgan.com/JPMorgan/TADF/4 ... e=JPMorgan

Here's their website for the fund and the "Summary Prospectus" is the link from the website....Thoughts ?
I feel hiway robbery...but, I digress. I'm flabbergasted !!!! :annoyed :confused :oops:

https://am.jpmorgan.com/us/en/asset-man ... -4812a3197


EDIT *** I'm not sure how much they put in, as the $$$ amount is usually secretive, but, I suspect less than 100K, maybe less than 50K ***
Hi

I think you mean JP Morgan?

Thread title is Morgan Stanley.

Your posted links are to JP Morgan?

Although J Pierpont Morgan founded both firms, they were split off in the early 1930s as a result of the Glass Steagal act, which separated securities dealing + investment banking from regular commercial banking

Valuethinker
Posts: 36718
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:54 am

KJVanguard wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:11 am
Morgan Stanley screwed my late father when he didn't know any better. Once he knew better, he moved his IRA over to Vanguard.

That was 20 years ago and they are still screwing clients. The only difference between a Morgan Stanley broker and a prostitute is that her clients don't know they just got bleeped!
Do you mean Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan?

It's not clear to me this thread is about Morgan Stanley? See my other post.

KJVanguard
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:39 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by KJVanguard » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:33 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:54 am
KJVanguard wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:11 am
Morgan Stanley screwed my late father when he didn't know any better. Once he knew better, he moved his IRA over to Vanguard.

That was 20 years ago and they are still screwing clients. The only difference between a Morgan Stanley broker and a prostitute is that her clients don't know they just got bleeped!
Do you mean Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan?

It's not clear to me this thread is about Morgan Stanley? See my other post.
I was specifically referring to Morgan Stanley. I am not familiar with JP Morgan, though I know Morgan Stanley doesn't hold a monopoly on mistreating clients.

Valuethinker
Posts: 36718
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:46 am

KJVanguard wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:33 am
Valuethinker wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:54 am
KJVanguard wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:11 am
Morgan Stanley screwed my late father when he didn't know any better. Once he knew better, he moved his IRA over to Vanguard.

That was 20 years ago and they are still screwing clients. The only difference between a Morgan Stanley broker and a prostitute is that her clients don't know they just got bleeped!
Do you mean Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan?

It's not clear to me this thread is about Morgan Stanley? See my other post.
I was specifically referring to Morgan Stanley. I am not familiar with JP Morgan, though I know Morgan Stanley doesn't hold a monopoly on mistreating clients.
Original poster has confused Morgan Stanley with JP Morgan. Hence my question.

Jags4186
Posts: 2639
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Jags4186 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:25 am

I have Morgan Stanely TDF available in my 401k. There are no loads.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Morgan Stanley Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:11 am

OP should clarify whether his friend owns JPMorgan SmartRetirement TDFs or Morgan Stanley CGCM TDFs.

User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 49303
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: [JP Morgan] Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:42 pm

Jerry55 - Based on the links you've posted, I believe you are referring to JP Morgan, not Morgan Stanley. I have retitled the thread.

If this is incorrect, you can change the thread title by editing the Subject: line in Post #1.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

User avatar
Jerry55
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:56 am
Location: That Toddlin' Town

Re: [JP Morgan] Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by Jerry55 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:11 pm

Thank you for the retitle LadyGeek.

I was told it was Morgan Stanley JP Morgan fund, and I linked directly to the fund. Yes it is a 401K.
I asked my friend what exactly it is, and they're confused as to what they themself own and won't / don't know or say how much is invested...
They are cagey about amounts and more, so you folks know as much as I do....
coz when I ask these questions, the response is "I don't Know, you're giving me a headache"

Trying to be secretive and still asking me questions, I can't give a solid answer either, so I was hoping to point them to this page and MAYBE
get some direction from others, but we're all on the same page. I said Morgan Stanley coz I was told MS Target 2025 fund exactly as stated.
I remember those two letters because they are my girlfriends initials as well. I also tried to explain Bond yields vs. price and the confusion expands.
I liken it to buying $1.00 and paying either 95 or 97 cents, explaining that as the price goes up, the return pennies (yield/interest rate) goes down, and vice versa. That confused them even more...so, you see what I'm dealing with here.

Long story short...thanks for the time and efforts all....I'll have to leave this alone where it stands. Bonds vs price is confusing to them even.

Thanks for trying to help...I'll just tell them good luck with their choices and let it go. :sharebeer
Retired CSRS on 12/19/2012 @ age 57 w/39 years | Good Bye Tension, Hello Pension !!!

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: [JP Morgan] Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:26 pm

Sounds like they are they perfect fit for an advisor and a TDF

User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 49303
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: [JP Morgan] Target Retirement 2025 - CRAZY ?!?!

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:30 pm

^^^ TDF = Target Date Fund.

Let me offer another perspective for your friends (and hoping they see it).

If you have no idea what to do, those Target Retirement funds are the best deal around. Why? Because they are "set and forget". Pick one and contribute on a regular basis. When time comes to retirement, you have what you need. If this was the best choice you could make, then you've done good.

Ignore that you could have saved money by finding something with lower expenses. It far, far more important to make those regular contributions into something that "just works" than to take a guess on which funds "might or might not" work for you.

Bonds are indeed a different animal. Having a Target Retirement fund means that you don't need to understand how bonds work. The pros have figured it out for you.

You don't need complicated theory to invest. If you want to know more, start here: Getting started

Then, join this forum and ask whatever questions you might have and we'll help you figure it out.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

Post Reply