KaiZen Life Policy

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investor999
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KaiZen Life Policy

Post by investor999 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:46 pm

Hi guys,

I was just pitched a plan for A permanent life insurance policy by a company called Kaizen.

Do any of you have experience with this in particular? It seems to be a. It more consumer favorable than the previous Indexed Life Plans.

Would love your thoughts on this vs a 401K plan with Index Funds and if there is an scenario where they make sense?

Thanks!

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:47 pm

The first rule of "permanent" (whole life, universal life, etc.) life insurance is: Can you verbalize (put into words) a specific need for a permanent death benefit? If not, you are not a candidate for permanent policy. Period. End of Discussion.

Every other claimed benefit of a permanent life policy can be done more efficiently with a different investment vehicle.

[edit] ... like a company-sponsored 401K plan.
Last edited by David Jay on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:54 pm

"I was just pitched..."

Second rule: Permanent Life policies were designed to be sold, not bought.

Think about it. If you were looking for an investment vehicle and made a "bullet list" of features that you wanted in your investment vehicle, would it include "paying excessive amounts of money now (when you are young and poor) and continuing for 50 or 60 years that you can leave that money to someone else to enjoy after you die?"
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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powermega
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by powermega » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:56 pm

Can you describe your life insurance need? Why do you want life insurance? The vast majority of people can satisfy their life insurance need with term life insurance. Permanent life insurance has its uses, but those uses are usually very specific and unusual.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Rupert
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by Rupert » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:58 pm

To follow up on David Jay's comment: People with a specific need for a permanent death benefit are generally limited to people with disabled family members (usually children) who depend on their income and are expected to survive them and people with a need to provide their heirs a way of paying estate taxes. Business owners and owners of large farms might consider it, for example, to avoid forcing their children to sell the family business in order to pay estate taxes. If you don't fall into one of these two categories, you probably don't need this insurance and should invest your money in some other sort of investment account. Don't mix investing and insurance.

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:02 pm

Rupert wrote:To follow up on David Jay's comment: People with a specific need for a permanent death benefit are generally limited to people with disabled family members (usually children) who depend on their income and are expected to survive them and people with a need to provide their heirs a way of paying estate taxes. Business owners and owners of large farms might consider it, for example, to avoid forcing their children to sell the family business in order to pay estate taxes. If you don't fall into one of these two categories, you probably don't need this insurance and should invest your money in some other sort of investment account. Don't mix investing and insurance.
^^^ That's the third rule (bolded above) :happy

[edit] Which is the displayed title for the link the Kaizen website: "A Unique Fusion of Financing and Life Insurance"
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

BruDude
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by BruDude » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:40 pm

Sounds like a financial firm, not an insurance company. What insurance company is providing the actual insurance?

As an insurance agent, I am not a fan of indexed permanent life insurance products for various reasons. I have never sold one to this day...they have their place, but not for the vast majority of people IMO.

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Pajamas
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by Pajamas » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:53 pm

investor999 wrote:I was just pitched a plan
That means the person pitching it to you gets a juicy commission and you would be paying it. The components can probably be gotten cheaper separately elsewhere.

Any time someone pitches something to you out of the blue, like a broker cold-calling to offer an investment, it is probably more for their benefit than yours.

Companies literally offer trips to Hawaii and other television gameshow-like prizes to agents for selling stuff like that. There are even companies that exist to offer and fulfill the prizes.

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:51 pm

BruDude wrote:Sounds like a financial firm, not an insurance company. What insurance company is providing the actual insurance?

As an insurance agent, I am not a fan of indexed permanent life insurance products for various reasons. I have never sold one to this day...they have their place, but not for the vast majority of people IMO.
National Life and Allianz, according to the website.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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White Coat Investor
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by White Coat Investor » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:41 pm

David Jay wrote:The first rule of "permanent" (whole life, universal life, etc.) life insurance is: Can you verbalize (put into words) a specific need for a permanent death benefit? If not, you are not a candidate for permanent policy. Period. End of Discussion.

Every other claimed benefit of a permanent life policy can be done more efficiently with a different investment vehicle.

[edit] ... like a company-sponsored 401K plan.
Even the permanent death benefit can be acquired more cheaply with a guaranteed universal life policy than a whole life policy. Last I looked, it as about half the price. Granted a whole life policy death benefit ought to increase over the years and a GUL won't, but still. Half the price.
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investor999
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by investor999 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:00 pm

Thanks all. Appreciate all the warnings, (9 of them to be exact! ;)

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:42 am

investor999 wrote:Thanks all. Appreciate all the warnings, (9 of them to be exact! ;)
But only 3 were numbered... :happy
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

EsaCFP
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by EsaCFP » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:00 pm

Congratulations! You got great advice from people who don’t know what they are talking about. Kai-Zen is a premium financed index universal life insurance policy that offers benefits way beyond what other investment options, such as 401k, IRA, Roth, regular brokerage accts. etc. can deliver. Compare the projected future income stream with equal dollars to the alternatives, taking into account taxes and management fees and you will likely discover that your Kai-Zen benefit will be roughly 60% higher than your alternatives. You should call the rep that pitched the plan and continue the discusssion until you fully understand how it works. Also, you need to qualify for the insurance and be comfortable with the five year premium commitment. Good luck to you!

Nate79
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by Nate79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:13 pm

EsaCFP wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:00 pm
Congratulations! You got great advice from people who don’t know what they are talking about. Kai-Zen is a premium financed index universal life insurance policy that offers benefits way beyond what other investment options, such as 401k, IRA, Roth, regular brokerage accts. etc. can deliver. Compare the projected future income stream with equal dollars to the alternatives, taking into account taxes and management fees and you will likely discover that your Kai-Zen benefit will be roughly 60% higher than your alternatives. You should call the rep that pitched the plan and continue the discusssion until you fully understand how it works. Also, you need to qualify for the insurance and be comfortable with the five year premium commitment. Good luck to you!
Perhaps the OP should contact you and buy this horrible product. Do you happen to have a boat payment due?

You bumped an inactive thread why?

EsaCFP
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by EsaCFP » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:37 pm

Just happened to stumble on the topic. Didn’t realize there was an expiration date. I do have knowledge of the topic that the op might benefit from. I don’t own a boat and not soliciting, just giving advice like everyone else, however, I am well educated on the topic.

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:38 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:13 pm
You bumped an inactive thread why?
And in a first post, telling us we don’t know what we are talking about. How to win friends and influence people.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:40 pm

EsaCFP wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:37 pm
I do have knowledge of the topic that the op might benefit from. I don’t own a boat and not soliciting, just giving advice like everyone else, however, I am well educated on the topic.
You are getting very close to violating forum policy.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

EsaCFP
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by EsaCFP » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:51 pm

How so? Is it because my opinion differs from yours?

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David Jay
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by David Jay » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:02 pm

EsaCFP wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:51 pm
How so? Is it because my opinion differs from yours?
No, it’s because of commercial posts such as below:
EsaCFP wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:00 pm
...that offers benefits way beyond what other investment options, such as 401k, IRA, Roth, regular brokerage accts. etc. can deliver.
If you have passed your CFP Exam, you should be ashamed to have written the pure marketing swill above.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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nisiprius
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by nisiprius » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:04 pm

EsaCFP wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:51 pm
How so? Is it because my opinion differs from yours?
No, it is because, although you say you are not soliciting, the "CFP" in your screen name suggests you are a paid professional--and the fact that you aren't actually sharing any specific knowledge or information here in the forum suggests you are hoping that the poster will contact you privately and become a client... or that other readers will.

The language of your posting is heavy on promotion and light on information, data, and numbers.

If you would care to explain, with numbers, exactly how placing a mutual-fund-like asset inside an insurance wrapper can boost returns by 60%, compared by holding a similar mutual fund within a tax-advantaged 401(k) or a Roth, go right ahead.

If the point is something about lifetime income, then if you would like to explain why this product is better than just letting mutual funds in a 401(k) or Roth grow until retirement, and then using them to buy an income annuity, go right ahead.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

Nate79
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by Nate79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:24 pm

EsaCFP wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:51 pm
How so? Is it because my opinion differs from yours?
Also what you wrote is absolutely not true and sounds like complete rubbish from a salesman.

pintail07
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by pintail07 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:18 am

As an insurance broker for several decades never ever saw any permanent insurance plan I would recommend as an investment tool. Why not post some actual numbers and convince us how it is so special.

WildBill
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Re: KaiZen Life Policy

Post by WildBill » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:50 am

Howdy

Another life insurance salesman pursued across the moor by Bogleheads brandishing torches and pitchforks.

Poor monster!

I love this forum.

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