Lucrative careers?

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Momus
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by Momus » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 am
Some of these things are not "careers". That is like saying I am going to play basketball for the Chicago Bulls and be a starter. Saying you are going to get a degree in X and go work for Google as Y is not far behind saying you are going to have a career as an actor or sports figure. You cannot talk about it like it is a normal career. These are VERY competitive positions not attainable by the average (or even above average) person.
Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm

Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 am
Some of these things are not "careers". That is like saying I am going to play basketball for the Chicago Bulls and be a starter. Saying you are going to get a degree in X and go work for Google as Y is not far behind saying you are going to have a career as an actor or sports figure. You cannot talk about it like it is a normal career. These are VERY competitive positions not attainable by the average (or even above average) person.
Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?
What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
Last edited by michaeljc70 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6800
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:24 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I've worked in tech for 25 years. I suggest looking at the MEDIAN salaries for a particular job role. There is no doubt good paying jobs in tech, but you need to be realistic.
I, too, have worked in tech for a long time.

Two problems with that:

1.) The median never captures equity, which is a large part of tech compensation at many companies. Looking at the median will ALWAYS underestimate actual compensation.
2.) The median software developer is very low-skilled. Practically everyone who is a software engineer that would even consider applying to one of these jobs is already in the top 20%. That's because there's a wiiiiiiide range of skillsets and no standardization in job titles. Two people with the title "software developer" at two different companies may have completely different jobs with literally no skill overlap. They both show up in the BLS data as doing the same job, but they aren't actually doing the same job.

People seem to be under the mistaken belief that you have to live in SF and work at FAANG to make $200k+ per year in tech, and that's not even remotely the case. We're not talking about the 1% of software engineers or only the best of the best, here. We're talking about C students at state universities.
Most software developers don't get equity.
Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6800
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:00 pm

jharkin wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:50 pm
I still have no idea where you get this idea that these numbers are common. Just because a bunch of anonymouse uses on Blind say it doesn make it true. The BLS statistical data is out there and easy to find....
I get it from industry compensation data surveys (think something like Culpepper, but more niche) as well as having run software engineering groups at multiple companies in multiple states.
jharkin wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:50 pm
I work with developers with advanced degrees from MIT, Cornell, etc..most folks I know here in New England are only in the low-mid 100s base (mid 100s to low 200s with equity and bonuses) And Im talking mid 40s/mid career folks. Mostly in mid level management. The folks I know who do make well over 200 all in are either in upper management, or they work in downtown Boston at one of the really big names - Google, Amazon, Fidelity, etc.

Which is it? Do most folks you know in New England make mid-100s to low-200s with equity and bonuses or do only the ones who work for FAANG make that?
Last edited by KyleAAA on Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:24 pm


I, too, have worked in tech for a long time.

Two problems with that:

1.) The median never captures equity, which is a large part of tech compensation at many companies. Looking at the median will ALWAYS underestimate actual compensation.
2.) The median software developer is very low-skilled. Practically everyone who is a software engineer that would even consider applying to one of these jobs is already in the top 20%. That's because there's a wiiiiiiide range of skillsets and no standardization in job titles. Two people with the title "software developer" at two different companies may have completely different jobs with literally no skill overlap. They both show up in the BLS data as doing the same job, but they aren't actually doing the same job.

People seem to be under the mistaken belief that you have to live in SF and work at FAANG to make $200k+ per year in tech, and that's not even remotely the case. We're not talking about the 1% of software engineers or only the best of the best, here. We're talking about C students at state universities.
Most software developers don't get equity.
Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
"almost no one" My statement is not false because you know a few people. Look at job listings instead of isolated anecdotal information.
Last edited by michaeljc70 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:24 pm


I, too, have worked in tech for a long time.

Two problems with that:

1.) The median never captures equity, which is a large part of tech compensation at many companies. Looking at the median will ALWAYS underestimate actual compensation.
2.) The median software developer is very low-skilled. Practically everyone who is a software engineer that would even consider applying to one of these jobs is already in the top 20%. That's because there's a wiiiiiiide range of skillsets and no standardization in job titles. Two people with the title "software developer" at two different companies may have completely different jobs with literally no skill overlap. They both show up in the BLS data as doing the same job, but they aren't actually doing the same job.

People seem to be under the mistaken belief that you have to live in SF and work at FAANG to make $200k+ per year in tech, and that's not even remotely the case. We're not talking about the 1% of software engineers or only the best of the best, here. We're talking about C students at state universities.
Most software developers don't get equity.
Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
+1.

Here is a non-anecdotal source:

https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/new ... hicago.htm

“Computer and information systems managers” in Chicago have mean wages of $142k. Totally reasonable for the top 20% to be making >$200k.

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:06 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 pm


Most software developers don't get equity.
Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
+1.

Here is a non-anecdotal source:

https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/new ... hicago.htm

“Computer and information systems managers” in Chicago have mean wages of $142k. Totally reasonable for the top 20% to be making >$200k.
A manager is not a software developer.....we seem to be going all over the board, all over the country, all different levels. I believe that BLS category would include CIOs.

OP...I hope if you major in CS you do make $200k out of college, get free meals, can bring your dog to work, can ride skateboards through the halls, wear pajamas to the office, etc.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:12 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:06 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm


Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
+1.

Here is a non-anecdotal source:

https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/new ... hicago.htm

“Computer and information systems managers” in Chicago have mean wages of $142k. Totally reasonable for the top 20% to be making >$200k.
A manager is not a software developer.....we seem to be going all over the board, all over the country, all different levels. I believe that BLS category would include CIOs.

OP...I hope if you major in CS you do make $200k out of college, get free meals, can bring your dog to work, can ride skateboards through the halls, wear pajamas to the office, etc.
If he decides to move to SF there’s a good chance he could:

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm#st

“Software Developers - Applications” in SF metro area: $148k mean wage

But perhaps he might run the risk of failing at his goal and ending up a waiter instead...? 🤔

Momus
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by Momus » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 am
Some of these things are not "careers". That is like saying I am going to play basketball for the Chicago Bulls and be a starter. Saying you are going to get a degree in X and go work for Google as Y is not far behind saying you are going to have a career as an actor or sports figure. You cannot talk about it like it is a normal career. These are VERY competitive positions not attainable by the average (or even above average) person.
Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?
What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm

Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 am
Some of these things are not "careers". That is like saying I am going to play basketball for the Chicago Bulls and be a starter. Saying you are going to get a degree in X and go work for Google as Y is not far behind saying you are going to have a career as an actor or sports figure. You cannot talk about it like it is a normal career. These are VERY competitive positions not attainable by the average (or even above average) person.
Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?
What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.
Again..."top talent". I could name 3000 companies that aren't paying top dollar...but wouldn't see the point. Task rabbit? lol. Funny how Bogleheads tend be evidence based in most threads and anecdotal evidence based in this one. I wouldn't call telling some to get a specific job at a specific company good career advice. I've worked for many fortune 500 companies, so I don't think I live in a bubble. I've said my piece. Good luck OP. IT can be a good career, but be realistic.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6800
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:30 pm


Most software developers don't get equity.
Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
"almost no one" My statement is not false because you know a few people. Look at job listings instead of isolated anecdotal information.
I ran an engineering team there and have access to actual compensation survey data. Job postings are not a good source of accurate compensation data.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6800
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 am
Some of these things are not "careers". That is like saying I am going to play basketball for the Chicago Bulls and be a starter. Saying you are going to get a degree in X and go work for Google as Y is not far behind saying you are going to have a career as an actor or sports figure. You cannot talk about it like it is a normal career. These are VERY competitive positions not attainable by the average (or even above average) person.
Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?
What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.
Again..."top talent". I could name 3000 companies that aren't paying top dollar...but wouldn't see the point. Task rabbit? lol. Funny how Bogleheads tend be evidence based in most threads and anecdotal evidence based in this one. I wouldn't call telling some to get a specific job at a specific company good career advice. I've worked for many fortune 500 companies, so I don't think I live in a bubble. I've said my piece. Good luck OP. IT can be a good career, but be realistic.
Perhaps your issue is that you work in IT? We aren't talking about IT. And I am referring to industry compensation survey data, not anecdotes. Nobody uses BLS data to set compensation policy because it isn't useful for that purpose.

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?
What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.
Again..."top talent". I could name 3000 companies that aren't paying top dollar...but wouldn't see the point. Task rabbit? lol. Funny how Bogleheads tend be evidence based in most threads and anecdotal evidence based in this one. I wouldn't call telling some to get a specific job at a specific company good career advice. I've worked for many fortune 500 companies, so I don't think I live in a bubble. I've said my piece. Good luck OP. IT can be a good career, but be realistic.
Perhaps your issue is that you work in IT? We aren't talking about IT. And I am referring to industry compensation survey data, not anecdotes. Nobody uses BLS data to set compensation policy because it isn't useful for that purpose.
Please point me to this compensation survey data. I work in software development so I am not talking help desk or networking jobs.

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:56 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 pm


Which isn't at all relevant. Enough do that to ignore it significantly underestimates the median. But even if I grant you that, which I don't, my second point still stands.
Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
"almost no one" My statement is not false because you know a few people. Look at job listings instead of isolated anecdotal information.
I ran an engineering team there and have access to actual compensation survey data. Job postings are not a good source of accurate compensation data.
So, job listing don't represent the market?

KyleAAA
Posts: 6800
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:58 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:56 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm


Your second point is inferring that OP will be much above average in this prospective job. This whole topic has gotten way too much into the weeds. Looking at the very top salaries is not what I would do when giving someone looking for a career. I wouldn't say become an actor....some make $50 million a year. Many work as waiters. You need to take into account the distribution of income and take into account any indicators of where the person you are making a recommendation to may fall. Things like engineering tend attract people that have certain aptitudes that not everyone may have.

I work in Chicago and almost no one in software development makes $200k+ a year unless they are consulting on short term projects or has their own business.
I'm not looking at very top salaries, that's the point. I know a few people personally in Chicago who make $200k+ a year, so your statement that they don't exist is false. They are not super high performers and aren't doing consulting. They are just senior engineers who do good, but not spectacular, senior-level work.
"almost no one" My statement is not false because you know a few people. Look at job listings instead of isolated anecdotal information.
I ran an engineering team there and have access to actual compensation survey data. Job postings are not a good source of accurate compensation data.
So, job listing don't represent the market?
Job listing does not represent the market. What companies are actually paying new employees represents the market.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6800
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
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Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:59 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm


What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.
Again..."top talent". I could name 3000 companies that aren't paying top dollar...but wouldn't see the point. Task rabbit? lol. Funny how Bogleheads tend be evidence based in most threads and anecdotal evidence based in this one. I wouldn't call telling some to get a specific job at a specific company good career advice. I've worked for many fortune 500 companies, so I don't think I live in a bubble. I've said my piece. Good luck OP. IT can be a good career, but be realistic.
Perhaps your issue is that you work in IT? We aren't talking about IT. And I am referring to industry compensation survey data, not anecdotes. Nobody uses BLS data to set compensation policy because it isn't useful for that purpose.
Please point me to this compensation survey data. I work in software development so I am not talking help desk or networking jobs.
Here you go: http://www.culpepper.com/
Very reasonable at $8k or so per year.

michaeljc70
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by michaeljc70 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:01 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:59 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm

You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.
Again..."top talent". I could name 3000 companies that aren't paying top dollar...but wouldn't see the point. Task rabbit? lol. Funny how Bogleheads tend be evidence based in most threads and anecdotal evidence based in this one. I wouldn't call telling some to get a specific job at a specific company good career advice. I've worked for many fortune 500 companies, so I don't think I live in a bubble. I've said my piece. Good luck OP. IT can be a good career, but be realistic.
Perhaps your issue is that you work in IT? We aren't talking about IT. And I am referring to industry compensation survey data, not anecdotes. Nobody uses BLS data to set compensation policy because it isn't useful for that purpose.
Please point me to this compensation survey data. I work in software development so I am not talking help desk or networking jobs.
Here you go: http://www.culpepper.com/
Very reasonable at $8k or so per year.
Yeah, I'll pass.

Momus
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Re: Lucrative careers?

Post by Momus » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:08 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:50 pm
Momus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:33 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 am
Some of these things are not "careers". That is like saying I am going to play basketball for the Chicago Bulls and be a starter. Saying you are going to get a degree in X and go work for Google as Y is not far behind saying you are going to have a career as an actor or sports figure. You cannot talk about it like it is a normal career. These are VERY competitive positions not attainable by the average (or even above average) person.
Each big companies have 100-150k people employed. It's not far fetched to say there are about half a million people and more working there and make a good living. That's just 5 top companies. There are more than 20 tech companies that pay competively. That's a lot. That's not NBA lvl loterry.

Why do you think bay area shack cost 1.5M?
What if OP doesn't want to live in the Bay Area? HCOL and these are typically burnout types of jobs. It is a very specific segment.

BTW...FB has 25k employees, Google has 85k, Apple 123k (includes retail), etc. These companies have big market caps but the number of employees is small compared to Walmart, USPS, McDonalds, etc.

As I said above, there are good jobs in IT. I just don't want people to think getting a $250k job at Facebook or whatever is common. IT is all relative to other careers. People seem to be pushing the top end of the IT careers. A top realtor can make more than $250k a year. Would I recommend that as a career? No?
You forgot about oracle, Netflix, Intel, riverbed tech, Amd, Twitter, quora, Yelp, task rabbit, patreon, Lockheed Martin, hp, Cisco, ea, agilent, Nvidia, Symantec, uber. They are all fighting for top talent. Add all of them up and please get back to me.
Again..."top talent". I could name 3000 companies that aren't paying top dollar...but wouldn't see the point. Task rabbit? lol. Funny how Bogleheads tend be evidence based in most threads and anecdotal evidence based in this one. I wouldn't call telling some to get a specific job at a specific company good career advice. I've worked for many fortune 500 companies, so I don't think I live in a bubble. I've said my piece. Good luck OP. IT can be a good career, but be realistic.
It's cool, they still make a boat load in silicon valley with tons of big tech companies that's over about 500k employment no matter what you say. That's pretty realistic.

Cost of living gonna kill you but you will make about 200k to start, up to 450k TC after a couple promotion and jumping companies. That's a fact. If you want that $, move there. Just don't listen to Debbie downers.

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