Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

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JackoC
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by JackoC » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:05 pm

investor997 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:26 pm
weltschmerz wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:02 pm
investor997, can you elaborate on what it was about the Model 3 that blew those Audis away? What it just the fast acceleration? Because I think you would get tired of that quickly. Plus, if you care at all about battery longevity, you wouldn't be mashing the accelerator pedal all the time anyway. Lot of fast accelerations = battery overheats = reduced battery longevity. Overheated batteries are why electric cars are no good on the track. Also, fast accelerations = reduced driving range. I drive an electric car, a VW e-Golf. It's sure no Model 3, but it can still accelerate very well. I almost never do this though, out of concern for the battery.
It wasn't just the fast acceleration. It was the way the car steered, rode and went around corners. It handled like a go-kart while still providing high levels of refinement. It reminded me of the way German cars *used* to drive before they started dumbing them down (BMW in particular) to make them more appealing to a larger, more "aspirational" customer base.
If at all open to BMW's but fearing 'dumbed down', test drive an M2. Warm and fuzzy it is not. It's on the borderline of really practical for every day driving depending pavement conditions. However seems like most people who have them adore them, and I do mine. I think Tesla has done well for a new car makers, but straight line acceleration capability of some is so high it would actually be an unpleasant sensation to accelerate all out from a standing start, a number of reviews I'v seen have said so anyway. The M2 is not a muscle car by today's standards (well the new ones on sale now, M2C, are IIRC 400+ rather than 365hp like mine, first generation) but has better times around some tracks than the M4 and a number of other significantly more expensive cars. It makes me feel like a much better driver than I am on curvy roads*. Fitting stuff in it, well I don't ride bikes except at the gym :happy I walk (a lot) when not driving so not sure on that.

But of course spending the delta of 30k+ (to several 100k or whatever) from 'regular' new cars to cars people rave about is all about personal taste to begin with so naturally also about personal taste one cool car to another. Also I like my (F30) 328's personality as well, some people might say it's not 'BMW enough' but it's a very versatile car. But it goes well with the M2 which is a quite different car despite the close family resemblance.

*on crowded roads there's usually people behind me thinking 'why is this guy going this slow in an M2?' But I like to just sit in this car. I like it going slow too. I even get tail gated sometimes by some local guy in a pick up truck on rural roads, but then we come to a curvy section and what happened to that guy? (a mile behind). :D

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:47 pm

JackoC wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:05 pm
But of course spending the delta of 30k+ (to several 100k or whatever) from 'regular' new cars to cars people rave about is all about personal taste to begin with so naturally also about personal taste one cool car to another. Also I like my (F30) 328's personality as well, some people might say it's not 'BMW enough' but it's a very versatile car. But it goes well with the M2 which is a quite different car despite the close family resemblance.

*on crowded roads there's usually people behind me thinking 'why is this guy going this slow in an M2?' But I like to just sit in this car. I like it going slow too. I even get tail gated sometimes by some local guy in a pick up truck on rural roads, but then we come to a curvy section and what happened to that guy? (a mile behind). :D
I've driven the F30 many times and I don't like them at all. Coming from years of owning an E90, the F30 was a big disappointment for me in terms of the way it felt and the numb electric power steering. The M2 (and F80 M3) are different stories, but they're both considerably more hard core in terms of stiff ride quality and interior noise. I considered the M3 briefly but if anything they're even more expensive than a maxxed out Model 3.

What amazed me about the Model 3 was its combination of road feel and refinement/quietness. To me, had the magic feel of an older BMW like an E46 or an E90. It was also quiet enough such that I could maintain a conversation over Bluetooth with someone without yelling or blasting the volume from the speakers. Oh, and it was insanely fast.

Nate79
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Nate79 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:39 pm

Does anyone else find the car hideously ugly? A lot of people say that they find the car nice looking but I find it really ugly. Saw one driving on the interstate the other day, and before knowing what it was I thought it looked real ugly. My wife who was with me thought the same.

chemeng
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by chemeng » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:48 pm

I live 5 miles away from the Tesla factory in Fremont, CA, and these cars are as common on the road as Honda Civics - both Model S's and 3's. I'm not a huge fan of the look of the 3 either, but my main wonder, as others have asked, is the jump from the S4 (~50k?) to 70k+ for the Tesla. FWIW, I have no issue with OP spending that money on the car.

grokzilla
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by grokzilla » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:07 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:39 pm
Does anyone else find the car hideously ugly? A lot of people say that they find the car nice looking but I find it really ugly. Saw one driving on the interstate the other day, and before knowing what it was I thought it looked real ugly. My wife who was with me thought the same.
I think the Model 3 looks ALOT better than the Model S, but it does unfortunately share some of those bland lines. Alot of folks find the lack of a grill disconcerting.

That said, I think the Model 3 looks alot like a small Porsche Panamera, albeit toned down. And, I think Panameras look pretty great. But it's also got some old 929 and maybe some Mazda in it... I dunno. I'm pretty mixed, but generally positive.

roflwaffle
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by roflwaffle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:31 pm

matjen wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:11 pm
Seattler123 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:18 pm
OP,
Even keeping the budget concerns aside, you were looking at $40k cars earlier and now are looking at $70k Tesla after test driving it.
Before jumping into it, have you test driven other cars in the Tesla price range?
Yes, you liked it compared to other $40k cars, but to decide if it is actually worth $70k, you should compare it with other $70k cars.
I’m amazed the Jaguar I-Pace isn’t in the equation. No tail risk, more practical (e.g. mountain bike) just as fast around a track I believe...though not as fast in a drag race.
The I-Pace is slower around a track.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-ro ... eo-giulia/

It's also somehow uses more energy than a Model X even though it's the same size as a Model 3.

https://insideevs.com/efficiency-jaguar-i-pace-falters/

My guess is that the I-Pace is too much a compliance EV to compete with the Teslas, but if someone really wants a Jag, at least it's an option. :beer

roflwaffle
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by roflwaffle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:35 pm

investor997 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:01 pm
Fellow Bogleheads,

I made the mistake of test driving a Tesla Model 3 Performance this weekend. The car blew me away and now I want one.

I know that to most on this forum, anything above and beyond a Corolla or a Prius is a waste of money so I'll make an appeal to those like me who like fast cars and who might be able to sympathize... To that end, here's a current snapshot of "where I'm at":

Age: 45
Invested assets: ~$1M, 80/20
Emergency fund: $40K (online savings)
Home: no mortgage, property value ~$600K
Income: ~$160K
No kids
No debt

I also have an additional ~$40K cash set aside from the sale of a previous car that was planning to use to buy a new set of wheels. Until this weekend, I had my sights on a 2-3 year old Audi such as an A6 or an S4. Those are roughly $30K-$40K cars. I was also considering leasing a new S4 which would run about $700/month with minimal drive-off and adding the $40K to my "invested assets". Alas, the Tesla blows any of those Audis away. If you forgive the pun, I was "shocked" at how good it was.

The Model 3 Performance with Sport package is $70,200+tax+DMV. Call it ~$75K. With $40K down, a 48 month loan at 2.79% is about $785/mo. If I take delivery before 12/31/18, I'm eligible for the full $7,500 federal tax credit. That effectively knocks about 10 months off the loan. After 1/1/19, this drops to $3750, increasing the price of the car.

I'm not eligible for any other incentives other than a small kicker from my local utility that'll help offset the cost of installing a 240V outlet in my garage. I'm also not considering the "benefits" of fuel cost savings in any of this. I don't (presently) drive enough miles for it to matter.

So... am I crazy?
Do it! I have a little regret because I picked up a LR 3 before the Performance was released, but that's more because of the free lifetime Supercharging than anything else. If you're worried about the company, wait until the earnings report in early November to order.

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matjen
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by matjen » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:32 pm

roflwaffle wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:31 pm

The I-Pace is slower around a track.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-ro ... eo-giulia/

It's also somehow uses more energy than a Model X even though it's the same size as a Model 3.

https://insideevs.com/efficiency-jaguar-i-pace-falters/

My guess is that the I-Pace is too much a compliance EV to compete with the Teslas, but if someone really wants a Jag, at least it's an option. :beer
Ah, thanks. That is impressive indeed. They didn't go into the Tesla limiting the power after a couple of laps and taking like 3 seconds off a lap after that though. Another test pointed that out. So after a few laps they are essentially the same it appears.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/r ... rack-test/
Moravy told me that, before we arrived at Lime Rock Park, his team had run simulations to see how Track Mode would perform at this particular circuit. The data predicted that, after roughly three full-speed, perfect laps, the car would gradually start pulling power, hitting equilibrium at a pace about two to three seconds off the absolute quickest lap times the car is capable of.

Regardless, for a couple laps it is faster. I would have guessed it wouldn't be that close before seeing some other tests. I mean the I-Pace is more of a SUV that will swallow a mountain bike which is why I bring it up.


HOWEVER, never compare it to a BMW M2/M3 for track duty. This still holds true.
As to the heat problem that limited our early Model S lapping at Laguna, Tesla has a solution. Before the car heads out, setting Track mode tempers the overheating issue by launching into a (loud) coolant-chilling frenzy of both the low-temperature battery system and the high-temperature motors. Unlike in the Models S and X, both of the Model 3's cooling circuits can be merged, allowing the hotter motors to briefly use the giant battery as a heat sink. For how long? Maybe four or five continuous laps. Weekend warrior Derek Powell makes a face. "Track sessions are normally 20 to 25 minutes," he says, "and there are four or five sessions per day." I don't think he's impressed.
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

roflwaffle
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by roflwaffle » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:56 am

matjen wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:32 pm
roflwaffle wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:31 pm

The I-Pace is slower around a track.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa-ro ... eo-giulia/

It's also somehow uses more energy than a Model X even though it's the same size as a Model 3.

https://insideevs.com/efficiency-jaguar-i-pace-falters/

My guess is that the I-Pace is too much a compliance EV to compete with the Teslas, but if someone really wants a Jag, at least it's an option. :beer
Ah, thanks. That is impressive indeed. They didn't go into the Tesla limiting the power after a couple of laps and taking like 3 seconds off a lap after that though. Another test pointed that out. So after a few laps they are essentially the same it appears.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/r ... rack-test/
Moravy told me that, before we arrived at Lime Rock Park, his team had run simulations to see how Track Mode would perform at this particular circuit. The data predicted that, after roughly three full-speed, perfect laps, the car would gradually start pulling power, hitting equilibrium at a pace about two to three seconds off the absolute quickest lap times the car is capable of.

Regardless, for a couple laps it is faster. I would have guessed it wouldn't be that close before seeing some other tests. I mean the I-Pace is more of a SUV that will swallow a mountain bike which is why I bring it up.


HOWEVER, never compare it to a BMW M2/M3 for track duty. This still holds true.
As to the heat problem that limited our early Model S lapping at Laguna, Tesla has a solution. Before the car heads out, setting Track mode tempers the overheating issue by launching into a (loud) coolant-chilling frenzy of both the low-temperature battery system and the high-temperature motors. Unlike in the Models S and X, both of the Model 3's cooling circuits can be merged, allowing the hotter motors to briefly use the giant battery as a heat sink. For how long? Maybe four or five continuous laps. Weekend warrior Derek Powell makes a face. "Track sessions are normally 20 to 25 minutes," he says, "and there are four or five sessions per day." I don't think he's impressed.
I wouldn't get the Performance for track duty. From what I've read, the induction motor in the front will always be a thermal limitation. The LR on the other hand won't throttle on the track and does fairly well with suspension, brake, tire, and traction control tweaks.

https://www.mountainpassperformance.com ... worldwide/
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesl ... rformance/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOtqDt3 ... e=youtu.be

I'd love to see Tesla build a Performance 3 with dual PMSRM motors.

The 3 and I-Pace are nearly identical in terms of size, just with slightly different layouts. The 3 has a little more passenger volume and is lower/wider, and the I-Pace is taller/thinner and has a little more cargo volume. A MB should fit in either of them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/co ... l_3_trunk/
https://i.redd.it/yz86zhzjppi11.jpg

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:51 pm

OP here. Order is now placed. :twisted:

In a concession to Bogleheads who scratch their heads at anything beyond a Corolla or Prius, I decided to dial it back a little and skipped the Performance/Performance Upgrade build. This saves about $12,000 but should still have enough speed/acceleration to put a 2018 Audi S4 in the rearview mirror. And now the wait begins...

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:59 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:51 pm
OP here. Order is now placed. :twisted:

In a concession to Bogleheads who scratch their heads at anything beyond a Corolla or Prius, I decided to dial it back a little and skipped the Performance/Performance Upgrade build. This saves about $12,000 but should still have enough speed/acceleration to put a 2018 Audi S4 in the rearview mirror. And now the wait begins...
I am very close. Considering starting a new thread to ask people to talk me *in* to buying one.

So just AWD? Did you get FSD? What colors?

What was the delivery estimate and where (generally) do you live?

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:03 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:59 pm
I am very close. Considering starting a new thread to ask people to talk me *in* to buying one.

So just AWD? Did you get FSD? What colors?

What was the delivery estimate and where (generally) do you live?
Correct - AWD/Dual Motor Long Range but not Performance. I got the 19" wheels and Midnight Silver Metallic. Price is $58K before tax+DMV+fees, so $12,500 less than a Performance+Performance Upgrade build.

The website just says "Delivery before December, 2018" but the salesguy seemed to think I could get it within 2-4 weeks. I live in Southern California.

EDIT - I skipped Autopilot and FSD. IMHO, that stuff isn't ready yet. No need to pay for it now.

Big Dog
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:06 pm

Grats. We have 2 M3's and love them.

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:17 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:03 pm
FoolStreet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:59 pm
I am very close. Considering starting a new thread to ask people to talk me *in* to buying one.

So just AWD? Did you get FSD? What colors?

What was the delivery estimate and where (generally) do you live?
Correct - AWD/Dual Motor Long Range but not Performance. I got the 19" wheels and Midnight Silver Metallic. Price is $58K before tax+DMV+fees, so $12,500 less than a Performance+Performance Upgrade build.

The website just says "Delivery before December, 2018" but the salesguy seemed to think I could get it within 2-4 weeks. I live in Southern California.

EDIT - I skipped Autopilot and FSD. IMHO, that stuff isn't ready yet. No need to pay for it now.
Apparently the interwebs speak very highly of EAP especially with the new v9. I'm thinking of using it for a Thanksgiving roadtrip. T-day flights would be up to $2k, so I'm kind of at now or never (or just not now). For me, I'm thinking AWD, dark grey, black seats, EAP, FSD, but I would get aero wheels. I'm in Silicon Valley so I'm hoping your advisor is correct on timing.

I am tempted to go with white seats for that extra bad*** factor...

Talk me into it :-)

malbecman
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by malbecman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:18 pm

Congrats, am considering pulling the trigger myself this weekend on a M3D but blue with white interior.....

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:26 pm

WHOA - Tesla just called me and they said they'll have my car ready for delivery the Monday after next. Bam!

malbecman
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by malbecman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:28 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:26 pm
WHOA - Tesla just called me and they said they'll have my car ready for delivery the Monday after next. Bam!
Dang! Double congrats!!!!

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:29 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:26 pm
WHOA - Tesla just called me and they said they'll have my car ready for delivery the Monday after next. Bam!
Music to my ears! Speaking of which, have you thought much about what your first song in the car will be?

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:51 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:29 pm

Music to my ears! Speaking of which, have you thought much about what your first song in the car will be?
I really have no idea... Back when I did European Delivery of my 335i I was thinking I'd play "99 Luftballoons" or "Der Komissar" in the BMW delivery center. I guess I have a week to think about it. :twisted:

Pete3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Pete3 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:51 pm
OP here. Order is now placed. :twisted:

In a concession to Bogleheads who scratch their heads at anything beyond a Corolla or Prius, I decided to dial it back a little and skipped the Performance/Performance Upgrade build. This saves about $12,000 but should still have enough speed/acceleration to put a 2018 Audi S4 in the rearview mirror. And now the wait begins...
Congrats - you are going to love it.

dknightd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by dknightd » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:03 pm

weltschmerz wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:04 pm
(usually driving BMWs).
I hate that. I'm always careful to use turn signals. And still other drivers give me dirty looks. Sorry I like my convertible BMW. Get over it! Drive whatever you want. My car cost less than $10k. It is not my fault it is pretty and fun to drive. My other "car" is a 1994 Toyota 4x4 truck. I spent more for my truck than the BMW

dknightd
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by dknightd » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:15 pm

Pete3 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm
OP here. Order is now placed. :twisted:

In a concession to Bogleheads who scratch their heads at anything beyond a Corolla or Prius, I decided to dial it back a little and skipped the Performance/Performance Upgrade build. This saves about $12,000 but should still have enough speed/acceleration to put a 2018 Audi S4 in the rearview mirror. And now the wait begins...
I hope you do not regret not getting the high performance model

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matjen
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by matjen » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:08 pm

investor997 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:26 pm
WHOA - Tesla just called me and they said they'll have my car ready for delivery the Monday after next. Bam!
Demand is nearly satisfied...

Enjoy the ride!
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

Atilla
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Atilla » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:54 pm

pennylane wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:32 pm
Atilla wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:24 pm
Zero to 60 in 3.5 seconds is getting close to Yamaha VMAX territory. I have a VMAX so I know what that's like.

Get the Model 3. :twisted:
Actually was timed at 3.2. The 3.5 is conservative from Tesla
Still a good second longer than a VMAX, but hey - great for a car. 8-)
The Village Idiot - here for your entertainment.

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:49 pm

Update from OP: Welp, massive wrinkle thrown into my situation.

I live in an attached townhome and I just learned that the main breaker feeding my unit is only 70A (I'd assumed it was 100A). At the moment, it's totally unclear whether or not there's enough juice left over to add a 240V circuit to my existing panel or not. if I can't charge off 240V at home, this whole thing doesn't work for me. I have absolutely zero interest in relying heavily on public EV chargers. My life would be way too inconvenienced. Charging off 120V only adds 4 miles of range per hour. It's pretty pathetic.

I'd have an electrician on-site tomorrow for an assessment of my wiring situation but unfortunately I'm headed out of town for a week and I won't be here to deal with it. I was literally going to fly back home and pick up the car the following day. I contacted Tesla and requested they cancel the order. I'm hoping I get my $2,500 back - the salesguy is pushing it through. Once I return I'll get some electricians on-site and see if there's a way to get a 240V charger installed. If so, it's game on again.. If not, looks like I'm getting an Audi.

ClaycordJCA
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by ClaycordJCA » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:22 pm

New panel, perhaps? My father had his attached townhome’s replaced to get 240 for charging his Model 3. Cost him about $1800 to do so here in NorCal. Tesla had a list of recommended electricians to call.

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:34 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:49 pm
Update from OP: Welp, massive wrinkle thrown into my situation.

I live in an attached townhome and I just learned that the main breaker feeding my unit is only 70A (I'd assumed it was 100A). At the moment, it's totally unclear whether or not there's enough juice left over to add a 240V circuit to my existing panel or not. if I can't charge off 240V at home, this whole thing doesn't work for me. I have absolutely zero interest in relying heavily on public EV chargers. My life would be way too inconvenienced. Charging off 120V only adds 4 miles of range per hour. It's pretty pathetic.

I'd have an electrician on-site tomorrow for an assessment of my wiring situation but unfortunately I'm headed out of town for a week and I won't be here to deal with it. I was literally going to fly back home and pick up the car the following day. I contacted Tesla and requested they cancel the order. I'm hoping I get my $2,500 back - the salesguy is pushing it through. Once I return I'll get some electricians on-site and see if there's a way to get a 240V charger installed. If so, it's game on again.. If not, looks like I'm getting an Audi.
Hmm.

Have you seen this link?

https://www.tesla.com/support/home-char ... -connector


In my opinion, you should just install a lower amperage breaker that gives you the mile per hour charge rate you need for your commute.

Consider:

* you will charge at night and you won’t be running your dishwasher or lights or washing machine or whatever at night. So you should be ok.

* even a 15amp 240v gets you 11mph and 20 gets you 15.

I really don’t see the problem.

MRMN
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by MRMN » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:06 pm

Don’t do it.

You must keep fuel in mind. A gas vehicle idle in the garage costs no money. A electric battery idle inevitably loses incremental energy (especially in a cooler climate....I have a Hybrid in MN), meaning you need to plug it in, which will cost you more in the end.

Plus I hear the things are basically glued together and are terrible to find affordable repairs.

Plus I have moral issues with a tax-payer subsidy on a depreciating asset. $7500 could be “given” for much more long lasting and growth focused initiatives (retirement accounts or even a tax credit for dependent care accounts, which has been stuck with out increases for inflation for decades).

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Ged
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Ged » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:29 pm

samta09 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:15 am
Do you take long trips? > 250 miles round trip?

If you do I would be skeptical that it is the right car for you. To me the Achilles heel of the Tesla and all electric vehicles is the 'refueling'.

Range anxiety is becoming a thing of the past. Supercharging stations are located strategically near highways and are within 100 miles of each other. More are coming every year. Also, how often do average Americans take over 250 road trip per year? When they do, there are supercharging stations available for them to charge. You can verify by looking at their supercharging map.
I take 2 - 4 600 mile round trips per year to visit relatives. There are no supercharging stations in my destination city. There is one mid route but I would not have the range to get back to it on the return trip.

It is not practical for me to make this trip in a Tesla vehicle.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:33 pm

Ged wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:29 pm
samta09 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:15 am
Do you take long trips? > 250 miles round trip?

If you do I would be skeptical that it is the right car for you. To me the Achilles heel of the Tesla and all electric vehicles is the 'refueling'.

Range anxiety is becoming a thing of the past. Supercharging stations are located strategically near highways and are within 100 miles of each other. More are coming every year. Also, how often do average Americans take over 250 road trip per year? When they do, there are supercharging stations available for them to charge. You can verify by looking at their supercharging map.
I take 2 - 4 600 mile round trips per year to visit relatives. There are no supercharging stations in my destination city. There is one mid route but I would not have the range to get back to it on the return trip.

It is not practical for me to make this trip in a Tesla vehicle.
It might be worth checking for Level 2 chargers here:

https://www.plugshare.com/

Or look at future supercharger locations here:

https://supercharge.info/
Last edited by FoolStreet on Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:40 pm

MRMN wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:06 pm
Don’t do it.

You must keep fuel in mind. A gas vehicle idle in the garage costs no money. An electric battery idle inevitably loses incremental energy (especially in a cooler climate....I have a Hybrid in MN), meaning you need to plug it in, which will cost you more in the end.

Plus I hear the things are basically glued together and are terrible to find affordable repairs.

Plus I have moral issues with a tax-payer subsidy on a depreciating asset. $7500 could be “given” for much more long lasting and growth focused initiatives (retirement accounts or even a tax credit for dependent care accounts, which has been stuck with out increases for inflation for decades).
Please don’t idle a gas vehicle in the garage. Don’t people die from carbon monoxide poisoning from that?

But seriously, you are right, batteries will face some vampire drain in cold climates so you will want to keep them on trickle charge if possible. There is miles per day of loss you should consider if leaving the car unprotected in an airport during a winter storm for example. MRMN might be able to share experiences (presumably from MN?) since my experience with the cold is limited to Tahoe and high desert. Not sure that even counts as cold, comparatively.

The other points are debatable, so I won’t go there.

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:19 pm

ClaycordJCA wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:22 pm
New panel, perhaps? My father had his attached townhome’s replaced to get 240 for charging his Model 3. Cost him about $1800 to do so here in NorCal. Tesla had a list of recommended electricians to call.
It's complicated.

I can replace the subpanel in my garage to 1000A and it won't matter. Everything depends on the 70A main breaker located on the shared panel (common area) on the side of the building. And if the wire gauge itself isn't large enough to accommodate 100A from the shared panel to my subpanel, then it would take untold thousands of dollars of routing new wire through two of my neighbors' units, common areas, etc. And my HOA is a nightmare to deal with. they're all old school, "It's not my problem, go figure it out on your own." I just don't have that kind of fight in me.

At the end of the day, this car is a luxury, not a necessity.

MRMN
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by MRMN » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:50 am

FoolStreet wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:40 pm
MRMN wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:06 pm
Don’t do it.

You must keep fuel in mind. A gas vehicle idle in the garage costs no money. An electric battery idle inevitably loses incremental energy (especially in a cooler climate....I have a Hybrid in MN), meaning you need to plug it in, which will cost you more in the end.

Plus I hear the things are basically glued together and are terrible to find affordable repairs.

Plus I have moral issues with a tax-payer subsidy on a depreciating asset. $7500 could be “given” for much more long lasting and growth focused initiatives (retirement accounts or even a tax credit for dependent care accounts, which has been stuck with out increases for inflation for decades).
Please don’t idle a gas vehicle in the garage. Don’t people die from carbon monoxide poisoning from that?

But seriously, you are right, batteries will face some vampire drain in cold climates so you will want to keep them on trickle charge if possible. There is miles per day of loss you should consider if leaving the car unprotected in an airport during a winter storm for example. MRMN might be able to share experiences (presumably from MN?) since my experience with the cold is limited to Tahoe and high desert. Not sure that even counts as cold, comparatively.

The other points are debatable, so I won’t go there.
By idle, I meant keys out of the ignition and off sitting in the garage. Good point of clarification. Point was that he claimed fuel savings wasn't an issue, but actually it needs to be considered because of the trickle charging and battery drainage.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Big Dog » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:55 am

I live in an attached townhome and I just learned that the main breaker feeding my unit is only 70A (I'd assumed it was 100A).
Ask about adding a sub-panel which feeds the EV only. (That's what we did for our M3.)

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DanMahowny
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by DanMahowny » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:09 am

You'll love the Audi man.

It's a much more refined vehicle, easy to service, will "recharge" in around 1 minute, and the bumper won't fall off when it rains.
Funding secured

Slacker
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Slacker » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:37 am

Why can't you put a towing hitch on a 911 and then use a tow hitch bike rack? I can fit my mountain bike in my hatchback, but not our whole family's so we added a tow hitch and got one of those tow hitch bike racks that can fit 4 bikes. Does no one make a tow hitch that can fit the 911?

wrongfunds
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:43 am

Is OP getting back his $2500 or lost it?

Did OP drive the RWD or only the performance version?

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:46 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:43 am
Is OP getting back his $2500 or lost it?

Did OP drive the RWD or only the performance version?
Yeah, I'm still curious as OP never responded to putting in a lower amperage breaker for the 240v plug. I don't see any reason he can't make it work using the existing 70amp panel. Heck, the tesla adapter can also be used to reduce charging rate so as not to hit the ceiling, limiting it to 30amp or even 20amp.

Nevertheless, he said he was going to call in some electricians for professional evaluation/advice, which sounds absolutely like the right thing to do. He probably simply has his order on hold until he figures out the electrical situation.

Assuming from his name "claycord" and his interest in Tesla(an SF-based company), that he lives in Concord, CA and he is worried about commute, if he works in Sunnyvale, he has a 70mile (140 round trip) daily commute. Assuming a conservative 6 hours of night time charging interval, he would need to charge at a rate of 140/6 = 23 miles/hour. A 30 amp 240v would deliver 22 miles/hour. If he had 10 hours to charge each night, he could go with a 20amp 240v circuit delivering 15 miles/hour.

Therefore 30amp or 20amp 240v plugs should be fine, well within the 70amp panel limits. And considering the overall range is 300+ miles, he certainly has breathing room to go 2-days without recharging and catch up over the weekend. He might even be able to charge at work.

Let's see what he says after talking to professionals. Lots of variables where my estimates could be off base.

Edit:
30amp = 22 mph
20amp = 15 mph

harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:27 pm

investor997 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:19 pm
At the end of the day, this car is a luxury, not a necessity.
Does this mean you won't be driving it every day? (Or even if you did drive it every day, how far?) We're just charging our Model 3 with a regular wall outlet, and that's more than plenty for our daily commute and weekend trips. It charges at about 4 miles per hour up to its 310 mile capacity, so if it's plugged in to a regular wall outlet for 3 days continuously, you'll be able to drive it hard and drain the battery almost all the way twice a week. Similarly, if you only drive 40 miles a day, an overnight 10-hour recharge will cover that daily usage.

And if you have nearby or on-route superchargers, that can easily charge at a rate of over 300 miles per hour, so a quick 10-minute stop could be more than enough for your usage.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by novemberrain » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:01 pm

matjen wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 pm
steve50 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:45 pm

Ignore all the negative news you see out there. There are lot of big money games being played by wall street to manipulate the stock price and they have way of controlling the news you see out there.
This is a parody right? I mean you are making fun of the cult right?

No? Well just to be clear ELON MUSK was just canned as Chairman, has been forced to find some actual independent board members, and has to have all his tweets reviewed. Somehow you are blaming Wall St. for manipulating the stock. The SEC doesn't see it that way. Unbelievable.

The SEC is one of the most corrupt organizations in the US. It is staffed by ex employees of financial firms

https://www.pogo.org/report/2013/02/dan ... y-capture/

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Nate79 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:17 pm

novemberrain wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:01 pm
matjen wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 pm
steve50 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:45 pm

Ignore all the negative news you see out there. There are lot of big money games being played by wall street to manipulate the stock price and they have way of controlling the news you see out there.
This is a parody right? I mean you are making fun of the cult right?

No? Well just to be clear ELON MUSK was just canned as Chairman, has been forced to find some actual independent board members, and has to have all his tweets reviewed. Somehow you are blaming Wall St. for manipulating the stock. The SEC doesn't see it that way. Unbelievable.

The SEC is one of the most corrupt organizations in the US. It is staffed by ex employees of financial firms

https://www.pogo.org/report/2013/02/dan ... y-capture/
Perhaps this explains why Musk was allowed to stay vs being in jail for stock manipulation.

novemberrain
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by novemberrain » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:34 am

Nate79 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:17 pm
Perhaps this explains why Musk was allowed to stay vs being in jail for stock manipulation.
Yes, such fine organizations like Lehman Bros and Bear Stearns can teach a thing or two to Silicon Valley about ethics, innovation and making money

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm

Update from OP:

I decided to go through with the order. New delivery date is this Saturday.

The charging situation at my home is complicated. I've talked to one electrician and I'm about to get a quote from a second. It's probably going to be expensive. I'll explain why.

I live in a condo. There's a shared electrical panel (with the utility meters) on the side of the building. This panel is rated at 400A and feeds four units, but each unit has only a 70A main circuit breaker that feeds a conduit leading to the subpanel in each unit's private garage. 70A (probably) isn't enough juice to add the 30A circuit breaker to the subpanel necessary to feed either a NEMA 14-30 outlet or a Tesla Wall Charger configured for 30A (24A continuous charge current, or 22 mi range/hour charge rate). I have two choices:

1) Upgrade the main breaker from 70A to 100A, then pull new, higher-capacity wire through the conduit that feeds my subpanel. Actually, I may not need to replace the wire; I'm getting an on-site quote later today from an electrician who will inspect the existing equipment.

2) Leave the main panel and conduit alone and install a DCC Energy Management Device in my garage. This is a load monitoring gadget that allows the existing breaker and panel to be left alone. It monitors overall current and cuts off the EV charging circuit whenever it exceeds a predetermined amount.

Option 1) probably means I need to get the HOA involved because the shared panel and conduits are considered common property according to my CC&R's. This is EXTREMELY unpalatable. I'd rather get a root canal then have to deal with my HOA. Also, a law in California called SB209 says any time a resident modifies common property to install an EV charger, they must take out a $1M umbrella insurance policy with the HOA named as insured (OMG).

Option 2) is expensive; $1000+ for the DCC box plus additional labor to install. Also, my city inspector's never seen one before and wants me to submit all sorts of plans and load calculations before he'll sign off on it, even though the electrician has already installed them in neighboring cities.

I'm leaning towards Option 2). I'll update the thread when all is said and done. But let this be a warning to anyone who falls in love with the Model 3 and places an order without doing a thorough analysis on what it will take to install a 240V charging circuit in their home garages. Whatever "cost savings" Elon tells you an EV will provide over gas may very well get blown on a lot of expensive electrical work.

FoolStreet
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:24 pm

investor997 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm
Update from OP:

I decided to go through with the order. New delivery date is this Saturday.

The charging situation at my home is complicated. I've talked to one electrician and I'm about to get a quote from a second. It's probably going to be expensive. I'll explain why.

I live in a condo. There's a shared electrical panel (with the utility meters) on the side of the building. This panel is rated at 400A and feeds four units, but each unit has only a 70A main circuit breaker that feeds a conduit leading to the subpanel in each unit's private garage. 70A (probably) isn't enough juice to add the 30A circuit breaker to the subpanel necessary to feed either a NEMA 14-30 outlet or a Tesla Wall Charger configured for 30A (24A continuous charge current, or 22 mi range/hour charge rate). I have two choices:

1) Upgrade the main breaker from 70A to 100A, then pull new, higher-capacity wire through the conduit that feeds my subpanel. Actually, I may not need to replace the wire; I'm getting an on-site quote later today from an electrician who will inspect the existing equipment.

2) Leave the main panel and conduit alone and install a DCC Energy Management Device in my garage. This is a load monitoring gadget that allows the existing breaker and panel to be left alone. It monitors overall current and cuts off the EV charging circuit whenever it exceeds a predetermined amount.

Option 1) probably means I need to get the HOA involved because the shared panel and conduits are considered common property according to my CC&R's. This is EXTREMELY unpalatable. I'd rather get a root canal then have to deal with my HOA. Also, a law in California called SB209 says any time a resident modifies common property to install an EV charger, they must take out a $1M umbrella insurance policy with the HOA named as insured (OMG).

Option 2) is expensive; $1000+ for the DCC box plus additional labor to install. Also, my city inspector's never seen one before and wants me to submit all sorts of plans and load calculations before he'll sign off on it, even though the electrician has already installed them in neighboring cities.

I'm leaning towards Option 2). I'll update the thread when all is said and done. But let this be a warning to anyone who falls in love with the Model 3 and places an order without doing a thorough analysis on what it will take to install a 240V charging circuit in their home garages. Whatever "cost savings" Elon tells you an EV will provide over gas may very well get blown on a lot of expensive electrical work.
Thanks for the update. My ideas were probably over simplistic and I’m glad you got professional advice.

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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:30 pm

investor997 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm
places an order without doing a thorough analysis on what it will take to install a 240V charging circuit in their home garages
I don't think I've seen you explicitly respond to whether you actually need 240V. Your original post mentioned:
investor997 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:01 pm
I don't (presently) drive enough miles for it to matter.
You could avoid the HOA or potentially expensive electrical work if you can just charge with a regular wall outlet and/or occasional Supercharger.

Pete3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Pete3 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm

investor997 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm
Update from OP:

I decided to go through with the order. New delivery date is this Saturday.

The charging situation at my home is complicated. I've talked to one electrician and I'm about to get a quote from a second. It's probably going to be expensive. I'll explain why.

I live in a condo. There's a shared electrical panel (with the utility meters) on the side of the building. This panel is rated at 400A and feeds four units, but each unit has only a 70A main circuit breaker that feeds a conduit leading to the subpanel in each unit's private garage. 70A (probably) isn't enough juice to add the 30A circuit breaker to the subpanel necessary to feed either a NEMA 14-30 outlet or a Tesla Wall Charger configured for 30A (24A continuous charge current, or 22 mi range/hour charge rate). I have two choices:

1) Upgrade the main breaker from 70A to 100A, then pull new, higher-capacity wire through the conduit that feeds my subpanel. Actually, I may not need to replace the wire; I'm getting an on-site quote later today from an electrician who will inspect the existing equipment.

2) Leave the main panel and conduit alone and install a DCC Energy Management Device in my garage. This is a load monitoring gadget that allows the existing breaker and panel to be left alone. It monitors overall current and cuts off the EV charging circuit whenever it exceeds a predetermined amount.

Option 1) probably means I need to get the HOA involved because the shared panel and conduits are considered common property according to my CC&R's. This is EXTREMELY unpalatable. I'd rather get a root canal then have to deal with my HOA. Also, a law in California called SB209 says any time a resident modifies common property to install an EV charger, they must take out a $1M umbrella insurance policy with the HOA named as insured (OMG).

Option 2) is expensive; $1000+ for the DCC box plus additional labor to install. Also, my city inspector's never seen one before and wants me to submit all sorts of plans and load calculations before he'll sign off on it, even though the electrician has already installed them in neighboring cities.

I'm leaning towards Option 2). I'll update the thread when all is said and done. But let this be a warning to anyone who falls in love with the Model 3 and places an order without doing a thorough analysis on what it will take to install a 240V charging circuit in their home garages. Whatever "cost savings" Elon tells you an EV will provide over gas may very well get blown on a lot of expensive electrical work.
I don't know if this is an option but they sell devices that connect to two different 120V circuits that are connected to different legs in the main panel and connect them in such a way to give you 240V at whatever amps (either 15 or 20 depending the breakers). I don't know if that would meet your requirements but it sounds a heck of a lot cheaper than either option you are looking at. Even if you had to hire an electrician to move one breaker around so that you have access to two circuits on different legs that would still be much cheaper.

Sample: http://www.quick220.com/

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm

harikaried wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:30 pm
investor997 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm
places an order without doing a thorough analysis on what it will take to install a 240V charging circuit in their home garages
I don't think I've seen you explicitly respond to whether you actually need 240V. Your original post mentioned:
investor997 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:01 pm
I don't (presently) drive enough miles for it to matter.
You could avoid the HOA or potentially expensive electrical work if you can just charge with a regular wall outlet and/or occasional Supercharger.
As I mentioned earlier, charging off 120V is not acceptable to me. While it may be okay much of the time, there will always be a situation - inevitably, eventually - where not having 240V fast charging at home will seriously inconvenience my life.

I could also switch jobs to one with a much longer commute. As it is, I do have to drive for work on occasion where I'll rack upwards of 200 miles in a day, and a 120V socket is only good for ~40 miles on an overnight charge.

The nearest Tesla supercharger is less than 10 miles away, but in traffic that can be upwards of 30 minutes. It's also known to be perpetually congested with cars waiting in line, people losing their tempers with displays of middle fingers, etc. No thanks.

investor997
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by investor997 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:50 pm

Pete3 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm
I don't know if this is an option but they sell devices that connect to two different 120V circuits that are connected to different legs in the main panel and connect them in such a way to give you 240V at whatever amps (either 15 or 20 depending the breakers). I don't know if that would meet your requirements but it sounds a heck of a lot cheaper than either option you are looking at. Even if you had to hire an electrician to move one breaker around so that you have access to two circuits on different legs that would still be much cheaper.

Sample: http://www.quick220.com/
Interesting gadget. Thanks for the link. Could be a "last resort". They do say they're only rated for 3 hours continuous use at max output.

harikaried
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by harikaried » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:14 pm

investor997 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 pm
The nearest Tesla supercharger is less than 10 miles away, but in traffic that can be upwards of 30 minutes. It's also known to be perpetually congested with cars waiting in line, people losing their tempers with displays of middle fingers, etc. No thanks.
Okay, thanks for the details. It's hard to predict how the Supercharging situation will change as more people get Model 3s (and are in similar situations with expensive / complicated electrical work), but Tesla is trying to help address that with "Urban Superchargers" which are supposed to be easier to install in more locations with more stalls. For example, in this part of Los Angeles, there's 9 Supercharger locations right now, but at least according to Tesla's map including planned 2018 locations, there will be 31 additional locations soon:

Image

https://www.tesla.com/findus/supercharger/Los%2BAngeles

(Note, don't take the location of the gray markers too exactly. The marker is generally pointing at where Google Maps would put the label for the city, so Tesla probably hasn't decided on the exact location but wants to add to that city.)

Pete3
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Re: Talk me out of buying a Tesla Model 3

Post by Pete3 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:32 pm

investor997 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:50 pm
Interesting gadget. Thanks for the link. Could be a "last resort". They do say they're only rated for 3 hours continuous use at max output.
Ah I didn't know that, I just googled 120v to 240v and that was the first one that came up, nothing special about that one, maybe there are others that are more heavy duty for continuous use.

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