Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

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EnerJi
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Re: Vaguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by EnerJi » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:42 am

Pancakes-Eggs-Bacon wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:28 pm
Vanguard needs to really add TOTP software security tokens instead of just SMS.
jhfenton wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:39 pm
+1 Vanguard needs to support TOTP, and they need to disallow bypassing a security key with SMS.
Starting From Scratch wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:34 pm
YES! YES! YES! PLEASE Vanguard! I've written to Vanguard months ago requesting they move to using TOTP and removing SMS. I encourage EVERYONE to do the same.
With all due respect to you three - this is bad, terrible, advice. TOTP is obsolete. It's better than SMS codes, but that isn't saying much.

Security keys are the current security state-of-the-art, and Vanguard already supports them! We should be advocating for Vanguard to eliminate SMS codes, not for them adding the obsolete TOTP protocol.

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jhfenton
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Re: Vaguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by jhfenton » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:33 pm

EnerJi wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:42 am
With all due respect to you three - this is bad, terrible, advice. TOTP is obsolete. It's better than SMS codes, but that isn't saying much.

Security keys are the current security state-of-the-art, and Vanguard already supports them! We should be advocating for Vanguard to eliminate SMS codes, not for them adding the obsolete TOTP protocol.
1. I agree that we should be allowed to eliminate SMS. I said as much.

2. Security keys are ideal, but few users will bother to obtain one. No company should build a consumer-facing security infrastructure around them.

3. TOTP is hardly obsolete. It is worlds better than SMS, and is the best current, widely-deployed consumer-facing 2FA tool.

When the first four words are "with all due respect," I usually find that none whatsoever is actually shown.

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Re: Vaguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by jalbert » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:51 pm

Pancakes-Eggs-Bacon wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:06 pm
In this context, a security code is two-factor authentication.

Common "factors":
1. Something you know (e.g. a password)
2. Something you have (e.g. a cell phone or a Yubikey USB fob)
3. Something you are (e.g. fingerprint, iris/retina scan, facial recognition, blood sample)

Two-factor (or multi-factor) requires two distinct factors from the above list, so answering a password (something you know) + answering some security questions (also something you know) is really just two examples of the same factor. In other words, if a thief knows your password, they can probably try to learn answers to your security questions as well.
The first factor should be described as something only you know. Actual answers to security questions would not qualify because their answers are rarely something only you know.
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EnerJi
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Re: Vaguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by EnerJi » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:11 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:33 pm
EnerJi wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:42 am
With all due respect to you three - this is bad, terrible, advice. TOTP is obsolete. It's better than SMS codes, but that isn't saying much.

Security keys are the current security state-of-the-art, and Vanguard already supports them! We should be advocating for Vanguard to eliminate SMS codes, not for them adding the obsolete TOTP protocol.
1. I agree that we should be allowed to eliminate SMS. I said as much.

2. Security keys are ideal, but few users will bother to obtain one. No company should build a consumer-facing security infrastructure around them.

3. TOTP is hardly obsolete. It is worlds better than SMS, and is the best current, widely-deployed consumer-facing 2FA tool.

When the first four words are "with all due respect," I usually find that none whatsoever is actually shown.
Sorry you feel that no respect was shown - that certainly wasn't my intent.

I stand by my statement that TOTP is obsolete. The primary vector for hacking these days is phishing, and TOTP provides relatively poor protection against phishing.

I agree that relatively few users will voluntarily go out of their way to purchase and use security keys. Fortunately, security keys are not the only answer. The solution in the very near future lies in the Webauthn standard and in secure tokens that already exist inside many of our phones and computers.

I'd much rather Vanguard spent their resources implementing support for Webauthn rather than TOTP.

Take a look at this article and video for some more information on Webauthn: https://developers.google.com/web/updat ... 5/webauthn

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Re: Vaguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by jhfenton » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:36 pm

EnerJi wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:11 pm
I stand by my statement that TOTP is obsolete. The primary vector for hacking these days is phishing, and TOTP provides relatively poor protection against phishing.

I agree that relatively few users will voluntarily go out of their way to purchase and use security keys. Fortunately, security keys are not the only answer. The solution in the very near future lies in the Webauthn standard and in secure tokens that already exist inside many of our phones and computers.

I'd much rather Vanguard spent their resources implementing support for Webauthn rather than TOTP.

Take a look at this article and video for some more information on Webauthn: https://developers.google.com/web/updat ... 5/webauthn
TOTP is phishable and subject to MITM, but it's better than almost anything else widely deployed in 2018. (I suppose you could count as widely-deployed something like Apple's two-factor iCloud authentication that depends on their ability to uniquely-identify every Apple device and tie it to an owner, but a system like that is not generalizable.)

Webauthn looks promising. I read the announcements that made news back in April. I'd be pleasantly surprised to see Vanguard on the cutting edge of anything except reducing fees, but I guess we can hope. :beer

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Re: Vaguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by EnerJi » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:44 am

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:36 pm

Webauthn looks promising. I read the announcements that made news back in April. I'd be pleasantly surprised to see Vanguard on the cutting edge of anything except reducing fees, but I guess we can hope. :beer
I'll cheers to that! :sharebeer

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Jeff Albertson » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:48 pm

FWIW,
Google is releasing its own security key, called the Titan Security Key. It'll be available by the end of the summer in Google's online store.

In an exclusive hands-on, CNET was able to test the Titan Security Key, Google's own key, which uses multifactor authentication to protect people against phishing attacks. Security keys come in many forms, or a Bluetooth fob, used to connect to your device when you try logging in.
https://www.cnet.com/news/google-made-t ... -security/

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Gnirk » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:42 pm

I like the idea of a security code. Currently I have our accounts set up so that if I log on from a different device a code is sent to my cell phone. My DH won't use computers, so I am an authorized user for his accounts. I have everything set up to be notified at my cell number. Whenever there is a transaction on any of the accounts, it is also texted to my cell phone.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by robolove » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:22 am

I’m locked out and do not have a u.s phone number to receive txexts or calls -for these codes- from vanguard . Anybody in the same situation? What service are you using?

Cannot link google voice

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Expro » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:52 am

I've asked a US friend via text to be my USA phone number on occasions such as yours.
Is this a one time need?

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Tanelorn » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:05 am

Expro wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:52 am
I've asked a US friend via text to be my USA phone number on occasions such as yours.
Is this a one time need?
You can set the account configuration, once you get their code somehow, to only ask for it again if Vanguard doesn’t recognize the computer (the alternative is to ask every login, if you want that). I take this to mean unless you delete their browser cookie somehow, it should be a one-time hassle. Once you’re in, you can also add other phone numbers like relatives, etc, to the official list of ones you an elect to be used in the future when a code is needed. However, for the first time, I think they will only use phone numbers currently on file, so you might have to call and add your friends number manually and then try to get in once that was updated.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Expro » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:09 am

"you might have to call and add your friends number manually and then try to get in once that was updated."

This is what I did. Sorry, I had forgotten that part. Not too bad a hassle but a hassle none the less.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by abuss368 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:29 am

You should be fine with both accounts having the same phone number.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by robolove » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:04 am

(I live overseas)

I did what others suggested and added my sister’s phone number and was able to sign back in. However, down the road it would be a hassle due to the time zone difference

Just tested and signed up for a year with sonetel (dot) com. They gave me a u.s. number and I have it forwarded to my overseas number. However, to receive the 6 digit code only automated an automated call from Vanguard will work. Text will not.

so I disabled code on VG security settings in order to remove my sister’s number (primary) and signed up again with my own.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:10 pm

I wish they had an option to both recognize my devices but always require security codes to move money out of the account irrespective of device. I'm one of those somewhat unusual people who allows physical separation between myself and my phone, so always requiring codes can get into PITA territory at times. But I definitely want warning if there's an attempt to move money out of the account. So PITA it is.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by rob » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:16 pm

Grasshopper wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:30 pm
Bill1952 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't have a phone (recently retired with no cell or landline nor any intention of obtaining one anytime soon). The majority of my investments are with Vanguard. I have an iPad I use to text and email, but apparently Vanguard is insisting upon a telephone number. Am I going to have to quit Vanguard after 40 years?
I have a couple of smartphones and still use my Google Voice number for SMS text messages from Vanguard. :beer Whoops You have to have a contact phone number for GV.
I don't think so... I think you can hook a GV to google hangouts.... so you could answer on the ipad.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:43 pm

Dale_G wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:18 pm
According to my Vanguard rep required 2FA is being rolled out to 500,000 Vanguard clients now, but they expect to require all clients to use 2FA by the end of the year.

It won't work well for son #2 stationed at a US military facility (a remote island east of Africa - south of India). There is no cell service, no incoming phone calls, and internet access is via DOD computers that do not accept cookies. But outgoing calls are possible, and my rep assures me that telephone transactions will work (depending on whether the telephone satellite is above the horizon during Vanguard working hours.) We'll see about that.

Lucky for us, he is travelling in Eastern Europe at the moment -and we were able to do the Limited Agent thing, so I can transact for him.

I suspect the criminal class and other ne'er-do-wells cost society at least 3% in terms of dollars and inconvenience. 2FA is one of the costs.

Dale
Just received the email 2FA will be required starting Sept. 26th.
Their implementation is truly atrocious, given that no foreign phone numbers, nor emails can be used.
I travel overseas frequently and, at times, for substantial periods and therefore I will be effectively barred from accessing my account at those times.
The thing that really riles me is that all this is completely unnecessary; a bad solution to a non-existing problem.
Funds transfers can only be made to/from bank accounts that have to be verified through a rather lengthy procedure and should I request a check, it can only be mailed to my address of record. I don't see how an evil-doer may put their hands on my money and I'm pretty confident the NK secret service is not going to exchange funds in my accounts just for the fun of it.
I sent an email stating my profound dissatisfaction after 20 years of investing with Vanguard. Hopefully, I'm not alone and some negative feedback will make them reconsider.

On a side note, I never changed my account to the "brokerage" type (and very happily so!). My wife though has the new structure. Is there a way to invest directly from bank account to the desired fund, without passing through the settlement fund first ?
Last edited by Thesaints on Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Kevin M » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:10 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:43 pm
On a side note, I never changed my account to the "brokerage" type (and very happily so!). My wife though has the new structure. Is there a way to invest directly from bank account to the desired fund, without passing through the settlement fund first ?
Yes. You can buy shares of a mutual fund on the new brokerage platform the same way, specifying your external bank account as the source of the cash. You can verify this in a couple of minutes by initiating a purchase, and then cancelling it after you've seen that you can specify your external bank as the source of the cash.

Kevin
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by tuningfork » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:25 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:43 pm
Just received the email 2FA will be required starting Sept. 26th.
Their implementation is truly atrocious, given that no foreign phone numbers, nor emails can be used.
I travel overseas frequently and, at times, for substantial periods and therefore I will be effectively barred from accessing my account at those times.
Vanguard supports Yubikeys. More secure than SMS (although it may be moot since I've heard Vanguard lets you fallback to SMS if you claim to have lost your key). If your main concern is access while out of the country, seems like a Yubikey would work for you.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:41 pm

tuningfork wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:25 pm
Vanguard supports Yubikeys. More secure than SMS (although it may be moot since I've heard Vanguard lets you fallback to SMS if you claim to have lost your key). If your main concern is access while out of the country, seems like a Yubikey would work for you.
Where did you find that info ? From the FAQ I only got that they don't trust emails and foreign phone numbers.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by tuningfork » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:52 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:41 pm
tuningfork wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:25 pm
Vanguard supports Yubikeys. More secure than SMS (although it may be moot since I've heard Vanguard lets you fallback to SMS if you claim to have lost your key). If your main concern is access while out of the country, seems like a Yubikey would work for you.
Where did you find that info ? From the FAQ I only got that they don't trust emails and foreign phone numbers.
I logged into my Vanguard account and it's described in Account Maintenance under Security Keys. I'm just assuming they work internationally, but I see no reason why a Yubikey knows or cares where it's physically located.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 am

Bill1952 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't have a phone (recently retired with no cell or landline nor any intention of obtaining one anytime soon). The majority of my investments are with Vanguard. I have an iPad I use to text and email, but apparently Vanguard is insisting upon a telephone number. Am I going to have to quit Vanguard after 40 years?
Have you asked if you can continue as is?

I don't carry a smart phone either, but have a flip phone and a landline.

Several months ago I got an email about security codes, I called and asked if I could just skip the security code system, and was told I could continue as before.

I got another email a couple of days ago that sounded like the new system is mandatory. So I went ahead and adopted the new system, with codes sent only for computers Vanguard does not recognise. Both our home computer and tablets are password protected.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by RadAudit » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:00 am

KlingKlang wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:54 pm
I just received an email from Vanguard Flagship Services ... "You'll soon be required to sign up for security codes".
Got mine today. They were rather emphatic about signing up by a specified date.

Downside: Don't have a cell phone so - no looking at account balances while I'm away from home.

Upside: Don't have to worry about looking at account balances while I'm on vacation.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Doc » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:01 am

Kevin M wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:10 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:43 pm
On a side note, I never changed my account to the "brokerage" type (and very happily so!). My wife though has the new structure. Is there a way to invest directly from bank account to the desired fund, without passing through the settlement fund first ?
Yes. You can buy shares of a mutual fund on the new brokerage platform the same way, specifying your external bank account as the source of the cash. You can verify this in a couple of minutes by initiating a purchase, and then cancelling it after you've seen that you can specify your external bank as the source of the cash.

Kevin
With a brokerage account it's even easier. Just initiate a "pull" from your bank on VBS site. The amount is "available to trade" immediately. Buy whatever you want.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Doc » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:06 am

ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 am
I don't carry a smart phone either, but have a flip phone and a landline.
You don't need a smartphone. I set one of our accounts up yesterday. Took at least 3 minutes because my flip phone was in another room. You can also use a landline with a voice message.

Just set it up so that you only need a new code only if your device is not recognized. Don't set it up to require a new code at every login.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by freedom66 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:22 am

I called Vanguard about this mandatory security code and its affect on the many OCONUS traveling clients. They said that they are getting many calls about it. They also brought on a web tech and I was able to opt out.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Kevin M » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:25 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:01 am
Kevin M wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:10 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:43 pm
On a side note, I never changed my account to the "brokerage" type (and very happily so!). My wife though has the new structure. Is there a way to invest directly from bank account to the desired fund, without passing through the settlement fund first ?
Yes. You can buy shares of a mutual fund on the new brokerage platform the same way, specifying your external bank account as the source of the cash. You can verify this in a couple of minutes by initiating a purchase, and then cancelling it after you've seen that you can specify your external bank as the source of the cash.

Kevin
With a brokerage account it's even easier. Just initiate a "pull" from your bank on VBS site. The amount is "available to trade" immediately. Buy whatever you want.
How is this any different than what I described? You either buy shares of your settlement fund if you want to use it to buy brokered products, or you buy shares of any other mutual fund directly if that's what you want to do. Either way, you do the "pull" by buying shares of a mutual fund.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Doc » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:55 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:25 pm
How is this any different than what I described? You either buy shares of your settlement fund if you want to use it to buy brokered products, or you buy shares of any other mutual fund directly if that's what you want to do. Either way, you do the "pull" by buying shares of a mutual fund.
The difference is one day. If you move money to your MM account on Monday it gets to your MM Tuesday and if you want to exchange to a TBM fund that trade is on Tuesday and it settle on Wednesday. If you buy the TBM directly with the pull the trade is on Monday (same day) and it settles on Tuesday.

Not a big deal in many cases but it is one day faster and has a few fewer trades.

It is a very big deal if you plan to go backpacking on Tuesday. :D

OK I re-read your post and you are cancelling the MM trade the same day. No big deal. Just a second unnecessary step.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:55 pm
The difference is one day. If you move money to your MM account on Monday it gets to your MM Tuesday and if you want to exchange to a TBM fund that trade is on Tuesday and it settle on Wednesday.
This is what I have experienced.
If you buy the TBM directly with the pull the trade is on Monday (same day) and it settles on Tuesday.
This is what I would like. Will have to look harder next time.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by aspirit » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:49 pm

I know people still paying for and receiving quarterly paper statements. Hopefully this policy does not affect them. There are still people out there that do not utilize the net. :?
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Kevin M » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:00 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:55 pm
Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:25 pm
How is this any different than what I described? You either buy shares of your settlement fund if you want to use it to buy brokered products, or you buy shares of any other mutual fund directly if that's what you want to do. Either way, you do the "pull" by buying shares of a mutual fund.
The difference is one day. If you move money to your MM account on Monday it gets to your MM Tuesday and if you want to exchange to a TBM fund that trade is on Tuesday and it settle on Wednesday. If you buy the TBM directly with the pull the trade is on Monday (same day) and it settles on Tuesday.
Please re-read my post carefully. I did not say to "move money to your MM account", I said, "You can buy shares of a mutual fund ..." (you even underlined it in quoting it). TBM is a mutual fund, so these are the shares you'd buy directly per my original post, if that's what you wanted to do.
OK I re-read your post and you are cancelling the MM trade the same day. No big deal. Just a second unnecessary step.
Again, I didn't say anything about an ""MM trade". I was simply saying that one can verify that one can buy a mutual fund (any mutual fund, like TBM in your example) (before one actually wants to do so) by initiating the buy of whatever mutual fund you want to buy, getting to the screen where you specify where the money is coming from, and selecting your external bank, then at that point cancelling the transaction if you're not actually ready to do the transaction. It's just a way of someone demonstrating to themselves ahead of time that it can be done in a brokerage account the same way it's done in a mutual fund account.

I think for some reason you are seeing "money market fund" when I write "mutual fund". The mutual fund I'm referring to could be a bond fund, stock fund, or money market fund (one of which is your settlement fund).

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by ruralavalon » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:07 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:06 am
ruralavalon wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 am
I don't carry a smart phone either, but have a flip phone and a landline.
You don't need a smartphone. I set one of our accounts up yesterday. Took at least 3 minutes because my flip phone was in another room. You can also use a landline with a voice message.

Just set it up so that you only need a new code only if your device is not recognized. Don't set it up to require a new code at every login.
I set up the new system for both of us this morning. I set up the landline as the primary and the flip phone as a secondary number to receive the security code, and set to have a security code sent only when Vanguard does not recognise our desk top or tablets.

It was quick and painless.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kevin M
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Kevin M » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:08 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:01 pm
If you buy the TBM directly with the pull the trade is on Monday (same day) and it settles on Tuesday.
This is what I would like. Will have to look harder next time.
And I am trying to explain that you can do this, and that you and your wife can log onto her brokerage account at any time and verify this for yourself. You don't have to wait until the next time you actually want to do the purchase. Just do a mock purchase, and cancel after selecting her external bank as "where the money is coming from", but before submitting the transaction.

Again, it's the same as with a mutual fund account on the old platform. Not easier, not harder--the same.

If you can't do it, then the external bank is not linked to the brokerage account. I don't think you lose the links to external bank accounts by upgrading, but if you do, it's easy enough to set them up again. Better to check now than wait until you actually want to do the purchase.

Kevin
Last edited by Kevin M on Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Doc » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:49 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:08 pm
. Just due a mock purchase, and cancel after selecting her external bank as "where the money is coming from", but before submitting the transaction.
This is the point I was trying to make up thread. You don't even need to do a mock purchase. You can just do a transfer cash in. You have a credit which is available to trade as soon as the page refreshes (almost). Then buy whatever you want.

Don't know where I got the MM fund idea before. My bad.

So the actual procedure is even easier the Kevin describes.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Doc » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:57 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:08 pm
. I don't think you lose the links to external bank accounts by upgrading, but if you do, it's easy enough to set them up again.
It's been several years since I upgraded but I think you need to set it up again. IIRC they use a different correspondent bank for VBS.

It is easy to set them up again.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:08 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:49 pm
Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:08 pm
. Just due a mock purchase, and cancel after selecting her external bank as "where the money is coming from", but before submitting the transaction.
This is the point I was trying to make up thread. You don't even need to do a mock purchase. You can just do a transfer cash in. You have a credit which is available to trade as soon as the page refreshes (almost). Then buy whatever you want.

Don't know where I got the MM fund idea before. My bad.

So the actual procedure is even easier the Kevin describes.
The only thing I managed to do from the bank account is transferring into the settlement fund (a MM).
Do you guys mean that I can instantly use the amount just transferred to buy the desired fund ?
I'm using "transferred", but it means buying MM shares with money in the linked bank account.
We are on the West Coast. Usually we transact after market close, so the order to buy into the MM does not execute until the next day.
Maybe that's why I have to log in again the following day and execute the second leg separately.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by mouses » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:22 pm

Bill1952 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't have a phone (recently retired with no cell or landline nor any intention of obtaining one anytime soon). The majority of my investments are with Vanguard. I have an iPad I use to text and email, but apparently Vanguard is insisting upon a telephone number. Am I going to have to quit Vanguard after 40 years?
I find the telephone number only requirement annoying. I prefer having an email option so the phone doesn't ring in the middle of the night. Also Vanguard's Miss Lisp doesn't recognize pushing 1 right away, you have to listen to her drone on.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Kevin M » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:40 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:49 pm
Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:08 pm
. Just due do a mock purchase, and cancel after selecting her external bank as "where the money is coming from", but before submitting the transaction.
This is the point I was trying to make up thread. You don't even need to do a mock purchase. You can just do a transfer cash in. You have a credit which is available to trade as soon as the page refreshes (almost). Then buy whatever you want.
You're still missing the point. I'm talking about just running through the first few steps of the purchase to verify that you can specify your external bank as the source of the cash when you don't yet actually have the cash in the bank to make the purchase, or if for whatever reason you aren't ready to make the purchase right now. It's just a learning exercise, not an actual trade.
Don't know where I got the MM fund idea before. My bad.
At least we got that straight.
So the actual procedure is even easier the Kevin describes.
It's exactly as I described, except that when doing the actual purchase, you would click "Continue" after selecting your bank as "where the money is coming from", then click Submit on the next screen. If just doing it to verify that you can select your bank as the source of the cash, you click "Cancel" after verifying that you can select your bank, since you don't want to actually complete the transaction in this case.

Kevin
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:44 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:40 pm
It's exactly as I described, except that when doing the actual purchase, you would click "Continue" after selecting your bank as "where the money is coming from", then click Submit on the next screen. If just doing it to verify that you can select your bank as the source of the cash, you click "Cancel" after verifying that you can select your bank, since you don't want to actually complete the transaction in this case.
Yes, but my only option is buying into the settlement fund.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Kevin M » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:46 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:08 pm
Do you guys mean that I can instantly use the amount just transferred to buy the desired fund ?
No. What we're saying is that if you want to buy shares of a mutual fund other than the money market fund, you just buy it directly, specifying the external bank as the source of the cash. There is no need to buy shares of the money market fund first.
I'm using "transferred", but it means buying MM shares with money in the linked bank account.
We are on the West Coast. Usually we transact after market close, so the order to buy into the MM does not execute until the next day.
Maybe that's why I have to log in again the following day and execute the second leg separately.
There is no need to do two "legs". Just buy the fund you want to buy directly. Don't buy the money market fund shares first.

I would provide more details, maybe even with screen shots, but this is not on the topic of this thread. If you still don't understand, you can start a new thread with your question, and if you don't get it answered, PM me, and I'll provide more details in that thread.

Kevin
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by jclear » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:39 am

Thesaints wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:44 pm
Yes, but my only option is buying into the settlement fund.
When I had to make another tIRA, and it was a brokerage account, I could only buy the settlement fund, then wait a week to move the money to the fund I wanted. But now that that's over I can buy into a fund directly from a bank account.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:37 am

Thesaints wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:08 pm
The only thing I managed to do from the bank account is transferring into the settlement fund (a MM).
Do you guys mean that I can instantly use the amount just transferred to buy the desired fund ?
I'm using "transferred", but it means buying MM shares with money in the linked bank account.
We are on the West Coast. Usually we transact after market close, so the order to buy into the MM does not execute until the next day.
Maybe that's why I have to log in again the following day and execute the second leg separately.
It sounds like you are doing a push from the bank to VBS. Vanguard doesn't know anything about that until the money arrives.

To do what Kevin and I are doing is to initiate a pull from your bank on Vanguard's site. That way Vanguard knows imediatly that the money is coming.

I don't know if being after hours is a factor. Use Kevin's testing method to check it out. (I finally figured out that Kevin's description was for testing. :oops: )
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by mariezzz » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:33 pm

mouses wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:22 pm
Bill1952 wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't have a phone (recently retired with no cell or landline nor any intention of obtaining one anytime soon). The majority of my investments are with Vanguard. I have an iPad I use to text and email, but apparently Vanguard is insisting upon a telephone number. Am I going to have to quit Vanguard after 40 years?
I find the telephone number only requirement annoying. I prefer having an email option so the phone doesn't ring in the middle of the night. Also Vanguard's Miss Lisp doesn't recognize pushing 1 right away, you have to listen to her drone on.
+1. Not everyone is attached at their hip to a phone. I'm not sure how NOT allowing an email option provides better security - cell phones can be hacked, and people are less likely to keep their cell phone's operating system up-to-date or to have adequate security on their cell phones, compared to their computer. (I think
accessing any financial account over a cell phone is extremely risky behavior.)

As others have expressed, I am also concerned about the impact when traveling. Every time I travel outside the US, I don't want to have to change the phone number the codes are sent to. I really don't want to have to inconvenience someone else by listing their phone number. I also don't want to have to set up yet another account through something like google voice which I'd use only rarely when I travel.

It just doesn't seem that the employees at Vanguard really considered the needs of ALL the owners of Vanguard.

I have a lengthy password. I have a complicated user name. I never access any financial accounts over wireless connections - I always use an ethernet connection (I bring an ethernet cable when I travel) and only on my personal computer. I never use a phone to access my financial accounts. If I need info or want to make a transaction when I cannot use my personal computer over a wired transaction (very rare), I call Vanguard. Additionally, money can only be sent to the bank accounts I have set up with Vanguard.

Vanguard's options don't seem all that secure, either. Just look around the internet - one page is https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/two-facto ... -sms-apps/

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by 3-20Characters » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:17 pm

mariezzz wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:33 pm

+1. Not everyone is attached at their hip to a phone. I'm not sure how NOT allowing an email option provides better security - cell phones can be hacked, and people are less likely to keep their cell phone's operating system up-to-date or to have adequate security on their cell phones, compared to their computer. (I think
accessing any financial account over a cell phone is extremely risky behavior.)
Respectfully disagree.

— I’m not sure why keeping cell phone secure and updated is any different or harder. Update OS when prompted. Takes minutes. Done.
— Cell phone not with you? That’s a convenience problem, not a security problem.
— Accessing accounts over cell phone more risky? I would debate that.
The safest computers are iPhones and iPads | InfoWorld
https://www.infoworld.com/article/28459 ... ipads.html
Or are you saying because an iPhone is portable, a bad actor will get their hands it? Even then, with a good alphanumeric passcode, even the FBI can’t crack your iPhone—at least not very easily. That’s pretty good security.

As for SMS, have you heard of a mass scale attack? Not sure how that would work and I haven’t heard of one. Now consider that in one instance alone (yahoo) anywhere from 500m to 3b online accounts were hacked. So secure your email with 2FA—even if it’s SMS. If you still want 2FA over email, using a google number and having it forward the code to your email is a pretty small hurdle to overcome.

Vanguard can do better but email for 2FA isn’t the answer to security—its a convenience—and convenience doesn’t usually square with security. And anyway, it’s a system wide problem. Of all my important accounts, only 3 offer authenticator code options and of those, 2 out of 3 allow overrides to SMS. Everyone needs to up their game on this one.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:20 pm

3-20Characters wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:17 pm
— Cell phone not with you? That’s a convenience problem, not a security problem.
That's a HUGE inconvenience. When I'm accessing my Vanguard account on the internet I do have internet access by hypothesis, not so cell phone access.
Vanguard is the only institution that won't send authentication codes by email, as far as I know.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by 3-20Characters » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:40 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:20 pm
3-20Characters wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:17 pm
— Cell phone not with you? That’s a convenience problem, not a security problem.
That's a HUGE inconvenience. When I'm accessing my Vanguard account on the internet I do have internet access by hypothesis, not so cell phone access.
Vanguard is the only institution that won't send authentication codes by email, as far as I know.
We can agree on convenience but I was addressing security--some seem to conflate the two . For workaround, see google voice option. Easy hurdle to overcome.

Vanguard has decided that on the aggregate, email 2FA is less secure thanks SMS. I can see their reasoning behind it. You can argue the point but it's their system, their call.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by Thesaints » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:43 pm

Yes, and they made a bad call. Just copy Fidelity, or Wells Fargo, or whatever. No need to be original.
I also would question what risk is really there, since transfer to outside accounts are rather limited; you can't just give a bank account number and have money transferred there, or request a cashier check to some arbitrary address.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:57 pm

My DH just got the email. The sign-up deadline is September 26.

As noted earlier, there is no option for email. You gotta be kidding. :annoyed

My contact phone number does not have text messaging (old landline) and I may not be near the phone when logging in. No, I'm not giving them another phone number.
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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by HueyLD » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:01 pm

In another thread, someone reported that Vanguard let him opt out of security code sending and an IT person had to be involved.

Maybe it is possible to not accept the marching order for security code.

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Re: Vanguard - You'll need to sign up for security codes soon

Post by ruralavalon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:20 pm

3-20Characters wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:17 pm
— Cell phone not with you? That’s a convenience problem, not a security problem.
What about old people who don't have a cellphone. Then its more than mere inconvenience.
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