My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

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CULater
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:14 am

16.5% that I calculated pretty much agrees with the value shown in this chart by Honda that I previously posted. Overage is 13 mm (vertical axis) which eyeballs to around 17% or so fuel dilution (horizontal axis).

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by neilpilot » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:26 am

You can qualitatively measure the volumetric amount of fuel dilution by taking a sample, ideally during an oil change, and very carefully measuring it's volume. The larger the sample, the more accurate the measurement will be.

Leave that known volume in an open container, in a warm and ventilated location, allowing the gas to evaporate. If you have access to an aquarium pump and bubble some dry air thru the mixture, the evaporation of the gasoline will be significantly increased. The time required will depend on several factors, notable temperature and air sparge rate, and I suspect that odor maybe the best indication of when the gasoline has completely evaporated.

Virtually all of the gasoline, and none of the lubricating oil, will evaporate. Then carefully measure the residua volume and calculate the volumetric percentage of gasoline in the original mixture.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Turbo29 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:32 am

neilpilot wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:26 am
You can qualitatively measure the volumetric amount of fuel dilution by taking a sample, ideally during an oil change, and very carefully measuring it's volume. The larger the sample, the more accurate the measurement will be.

Leave that known volume in an open container, in a warm and ventilated location, allowing the gas to evaporate. If you have access to an aquarium pump and bubble some dry air thru the mixture, the evaporation of the gasoline will be significantly increased. The time required will depend on several factors, notable temperature and air sparge rate, and I suspect that odor maybe the best indication of when the gasoline has completely evaporated.

Virtually all of the gasoline, and none of the lubricating oil, will evaporate. Then carefully measure the residua volume and calculate the volumetric percentage of gasoline in the original mixture.
Why doesn't the gas that gets into the oil evaporate during normal use and get sucked out by the crankcase ventilation system and burned?

I have a Mazda3, which also has a DI engine. There are reports of oil dilution in these cars too (although nothing of the CRV scope). I am assuming that due to high ambient temperatures where I live (Arizona) it is less of a problem than the same vehicle say in Minnesota. A cold start in AZ is not near as cold a start and the engine spends more time at normal operating temp. Are these assumptions correct?

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by neilpilot » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:36 am

Turbo29 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:32 am
neilpilot wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:26 am
You can qualitatively measure the volumetric amount of fuel dilution by taking a sample, ideally during an oil change, and very carefully measuring it's volume. The larger the sample, the more accurate the measurement will be.

Leave that known volume in an open container, in a warm and ventilated location, allowing the gas to evaporate. If you have access to an aquarium pump and bubble some dry air thru the mixture, the evaporation of the gasoline will be significantly increased. The time required will depend on several factors, notable temperature and air sparge rate, and I suspect that odor maybe the best indication of when the gasoline has completely evaporated.

Virtually all of the gasoline, and none of the lubricating oil, will evaporate. Then carefully measure the residua volume and calculate the volumetric percentage of gasoline in the original mixture.
Why doesn't the gas that gets into the oil evaporate during normal use and get sucked out by the crankcase ventilation system and burned?

I have a Mazda3, which also has a DI engine. There are reports of oil dilution in these cars too (although nothing of the CRV scope). I am assuming that due to high ambient temperatures where I live (Arizona) it is less of a problem than the same vehicle say in Minnesota. A cold start in AZ is not near as cold a start and the engine spends more time at normal operating temp. Are these assumptions correct?
I don't know but suspect that there are 2 reasons.....the crankcase is pressurized, and there for the gasoline will evaporate but at a much slower rate. Also, it may very well be "sucked out" as you theorize but the leakage into the oil stream exceeds the rate of removal, resulting in a gradual buildup as reported.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:16 pm

For those who are asking if there have been any vehicle failures due to oil dilution, I've seen several posts such as the one I have taken the liberty of copying below. You just have to look.
Rising oil level due to contamination of oil with fuel and water, 2018 Honda crv ex. On June 18, 2018, while my wife was traveling at 70 mph on cruise control, every computer assisted warning unexpectedly evented on the dash (hill assist, acc, collision mitigation, brake system, cel, tpms, road departure, traction, power steering, vsa), the crv immediately and harshly self-braked (out of the control of the driver). The Honda dealership service personnel determined that this occurred due to the oil level in the direct-injected earth dreams 1. 5l reaching a level of 21mm above the current limit (the resolution given by Honda tech-line was to change the oil and filter every 500 miles). Had my wife been followed by another vehicle she certainly would have been rear-ended, injured and possibly killed. This is a well known issue with the direct-injected 1. 5l earth dreams turbo engine. Honda has no fix for it, and can only recommend that we change the oil every 500 miles. To date, since the initial occurrence on 6/18/2018, we've had the crv back to the same dealership to change the oil and filter an average of every 2 weeks (7/5/2018, 7/19/2018, and 8/3/2018). We'll be returning to the dealership by 8/17/2018 for yet another oil and filter change, this vehicle is unsafe to drive, when under cruise control, due to the oil contamination, the rising oil level, causing the unexpected firing of computer assisted features.
http://www.carproblemzoo.com/honda/cr-v ... oblems.php
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:31 am

Follow up on oil analysis results from Oil Analyzers:

Oil Analyzers responded that their equipment does not measure fuel dilution precisely beyond 5%, so they simply report >5% which is the standard recognized cutoff for "severe" fuel dilution. Don't know if there are other oil analyses available elsewhere that would determine a precise percentage. If anyone knows, I'd consider sending a sample to be tested to get a more precise reading to see if it lines up with my guesstimated 17%.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:24 am

I also inquired from the Oil Analyzers technician whether burning premium fuel instead of regular in the 1.5T might retard fuel dilution. He responded that many manufacturers use sensors in the engine to detect the octane of fuel being used to make timing adjustments. For example, in the case of an engine programmed for 93-octane, the sensors will detect lower octane and retard timing in order to avoid engine knock. However, he said that he doesn't believe that Honda engines programmed for 87-octane use octane sensors, so it won't make any difference if higher octane is being used as far as engine timing is concerned, so there should be no difference in fuel dilution. Perhaps someone has other information that contradicts this, since I have often seen posts suggesting that running premium in the 1.5T does help.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by 3feetpete » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:16 pm

Has anyone considered using a heavier weight oil to make up for thinning of the oil due to fuel dilutiton?

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by zaplunken » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:44 pm

3feetpete wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:16 pm
Has anyone considered using a heavier weight oil to make up for thinning of the oil due to fuel dilutiton?
I don't think that is a good idea. Now you are abusing the engine at both ends of the oil change cycle.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:04 pm

Using non-standard oil viscosity will probably void your warranty if the dealer service department knows about it. And they'll know about it because you'll have to produce your service records if you have a warranty claim, or lie about it if you are doing your own oil changes. Not worth it, IMO. A better solution is probably to do regular oil analyses to check if viscosity is within normal limits. If it is then no need to use a higher viscosity oil. If it isn't, then you'll have to do an immediate oil change or risk engine damage. Anyhow, I seriously doubt that a higher viscosity oil is going to do much to mitigate the effects of the level of fuel dilution being seen in this 1.5T engine.

The bottom line here is that the consumer should not have to be figuring out what to do to deal with this problem: using higher-grade oil, premium fuel, paying for oil analyses. It is Honda's problem and responsibility and they need to be doing something about it.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by 3feetpete » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:28 pm

After seeing this thread I bought a Hyundai Tucson instead of the CRV I was planning to buy. It too has a small turbo assisted engine. The Owner's manual gives me a wide range of viscosities I can use but cautions that the heavier weight oils may result in poorer fuel mileage. The Hyundai engineers don't seem to have a concern about heavier weight oil causing damage. I believe a heavier weight oil combined with frequent oil changes would improve the lifespan of the engine. Although I don't really have anything to back that up. It's just intuitive.

I agree that it should be Honda's problem to fix but they don't seem to be doing anything about it. That is too bad. They are ruining their reputation. I had a Honda Pilot with over 200K miles on it with no serious issues. That led me to the CRV when I was looking for a new vehicle but the problems detailed in this thread made me shy away from it.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by JPH » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:20 am

I just received the results of the oil analysis on my 2017 CRV. I had 5,000 miles on the oil. Very hot climate & mostly short trips. Here is what they reported.
You're concerned about fuel dilution, and we found a fair amount in this sample. 4.8% fuel dilution is enough to show a fuel system issue and it thinned the viscosity below spec. The good news is, though, that the engine looks okay overall. Metals are still at good levels next to averages, which show typical wear for this type of Honda engine after about 5,000 miles on the oil. Silicon is a touch high, but it's likely still lingering sealers from the initial wear-in process. Change this oil and watch for a rising oil level on the dipstick. If all is well, check back in 3,000 miles next.
Here are a few questions and observations:
Blackstone says to drive the car at highway speed until the engine is at maximum operating temperature before taking the sample and then not to restart the engine, even to back out of the garage. The reasoning is that starting the engine injects a large amount of fuel, and driving at highway speeds to heat the engine burns off some fuel. Why wouldn't a periodic long trip at highway speed remediate the issue?

Regarding ill effects of short trips and cold temperatures. It seems to me that the difference between starting the engine at 30 degrees and 80 degrees is small compared to the operating temperature of the engine. Why would this make such a big difference? And how do you take a long trip without first taking a short trip?

The CRV has an Economy mode that is activated by default at startup, I wonder if driving in the Regular mode would have any effect.

My mechanic said that the dipstick on my engine is not accurate. He said that one side indicated overfill, but when he turned the stick over and looked at the other side it was right on the Full mark. I haven't found that to be the case in my own experience, but it is something to watch for.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:31 am

JPH wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:20 am
I just received the results of the oil analysis on my 2017 CRV. I had 5,000 miles on the oil. Very hot climate & mostly short trips. Here is what they reported.
You're concerned about fuel dilution, and we found a fair amount in this sample. 4.8% fuel dilution is enough to show a fuel system issue and it thinned the viscosity below spec. The good news is, though, that the engine looks okay overall. Metals are still at good levels next to averages, which show typical wear for this type of Honda engine after about 5,000 miles on the oil. Silicon is a touch high, but it's likely still lingering sealers from the initial wear-in process. Change this oil and watch for a rising oil level on the dipstick. If all is well, check back in 3,000 miles next.
Here are a few questions and observations:
Blackstone says to drive the car at highway speed until the engine is at maximum operating temperature before taking the sample and then not to restart the engine, even to back out of the garage. The reasoning is that starting the engine injects a large amount of fuel, and driving at highway speeds to heat the engine burns off some fuel. Why wouldn't a periodic long trip at highway speed remediate the issue?

Regarding ill effects of short trips and cold temperatures. It seems to me that the difference between starting the engine at 30 degrees and 80 degrees is small compared to the operating temperature of the engine. Why would this make such a big difference? And how do you take a long trip without first taking a short trip?

The CRV has an Economy mode that is activated by default at startup, I wonder if driving in the Regular mode would have any effect.

My mechanic said that the dipstick on my engine is not accurate. He said that one side indicated overfill, but when he turned the stick over and looked at the other side it was right on the Full mark. I haven't found that to be the case in my own experience, but it is something to watch for.
Thanks for your report so we can compare notes. Can you indicate your oil viscosity reading? That is of great concern to me. Below spec to me would me it is below 6.0. I have much more fuel dilution than 4.8% and my viscosity reading was at 6.9, which the tech said was OK. Silicon is also a little high at 27 but no comment was made about that. I took my sample after a long freeway drive and the vehicle had been sitting for a few minutes, so theoretically some fuel dilution should have been burned off. However the tech said something I hadn't heard before in his email as follows:
So the fuel being injected also serves as a cooling charge to limit detonation. The higher the ambient temps, the more fuel is used to mitigate the risk of detonation. This extra fuel then attaches to the oil coating the cylinder, and ends up in the sump.
This would imply that the hotter the temps, the more fuel that is being injected to cool the cylinders and that fuel dilution would be exacerbated under those conditions. This is crazy because it suggests that hot weather conditions are detrimental as well as cold weather conditions. If true, is this a Goldilocks Engine?

As for wear debris in the oil, that might not show up early in the life of the vehicle unless oil viscosity is seriously low from oil dilution, so I'm not reassured by the low readings at this stage at all. Simple logic tells you that you'll have excessive wear if you drive around for awhile using oil that is not providing adequate lubrication to vital engine components.

I don't believe my CRV defaults to ECON mode on startup. There's an ECON button on the console that has to be pressed to enter ECON and it stays in whatever mode you last used on startup (I'll double check to make sure that's true). I long ago stopped using ECON mode because it lowers the revs and I had read, as you, that you want the engine to heat up quickly to burn off excess fuel. My observation is that it doesn't make any difference anyway.

I was aware of different readings on each side of the dipstick, so I've always been careful to look at both sides and accept the lower reading if they're different. However, I also bought a second stock dipstick and removed the orange plastic from it. It's much easier to read it and you don't have the issue since it is a thin metal dipstick then.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by JPH » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:22 am

Here is some more detail on the values that were out of range. I couldn't figure out how to format it correctly or insert. The bolded values are from my car. In parentheses are the normal ranges.
Everything else was normal.

SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 49.2 (57-67(
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 7.02 (9.4-12.4)
Flashpoint in °F 290 (>385)
Fuel % 4.8 (<2.0)
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by JPH » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:45 pm

CULater wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:22 pm
I've also just opened a ticket with Honda on this issue. Doubt much will come of it, but I'm laying down as much groundwork as I can on this. Here's where you can do that:

http://owners.honda.com/help/customer-relations
I see the link to "Send an Email." Is that what you mean by "open a Ticket?"
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by researcher » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:13 pm

JPH wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:20 am
Blackstone says to drive the car at highway speed until the engine is at maximum operating temperature before taking the sample and then not to restart the engine, even to back out of the garage.
The reasoning is that starting the engine injects a large amount of fuel, and driving at highway speeds to heat the engine burns off some fuel. Why wouldn't a periodic long trip at highway speed remediate the issue?
Based on what you've posted, you would need to take a highway trip EVERY time you start the car, in order to partially remediate the issue.

A highway trip burns off "some" of the "large amount of fuel" injected at that particular startup.
Periodic long highway trips would do nothing to compensate for the accumulation of fuel across 10/20/30+ short trips.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:05 pm

JPH -

In one place you cited the Blackstone comment here:
4.8% fuel dilution is enough to show a fuel system issue and it thinned the viscosity below spec
Later you listed your viscosity readingL
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 7.02 (9.4-12.4)
It appears from this that Blackstone regards your oil viscosity as below spec at 7.02, which corresponds to what they show as the standard range of 9.4 - 12.4

What troubles me is that there is a disconnect between what Blackstone told you and what Oil Analyzers told me, as follows, but they didn't show the normal range on the report - I had to ask in an email communication:
Most viscosity charts that you can find on the web will show that most 20W oils will fall between 6 and 9 cSt. Your results at 6.9 are really right where it needs to be.
They are telling me that cSt @100 degrees of 6.9 is within spec, but Blackstone is telling you that 7.02 is below spec. Someone is wrong here. Did you specify that your oil was 0W-20 and this that what is indicated on your report? I'm obviously concerned if my oil viscosity is below spec.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:25 pm

JPH -

From a table on this website: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
20 5.60-9.29
30 9.30-12.49
It appears that Blackstone is using the range for 30-weight oil in reporting your results (as best I can tell anyway). Is that what your report shows?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by neilpilot » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:56 pm

CULater wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:25 pm
JPH -

From a table on this website: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
20 5.60-9.29
30 9.30-12.49
It appears that Blackstone is using the range for 30-weight oil in reporting your results (as best I can tell anyway). Is that what your report shows?
I agree with your observation. The viscosity of Mobil 1 0W-20 at 100C is 8.7cSt

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by JPH » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:25 am

CULater wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:25 pm
JPH -

From a table on this website: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
20 5.60-9.29
30 9.30-12.49
It appears that Blackstone is using the range for 30-weight oil in reporting your results (as best I can tell anyway). Is that what your report shows?
The report is correct. I am using 0W30 oil.

Can you tell me more about how to open a ticket at Honda? I'm taking the car to the Honda dealer on Friday for an oil change.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:06 am

As I recall, I contacted Honda Customer Service website and submitted a complaint describing my problem. They responded with an email and created a case number -- that is the "ticket." You can continue to contact them reference the case number. Wasn't much help. They just told me to work with the dealer. To create a "paper trail" I plan to update customer service on the case each time I have a dealer encounter. I will be having one within the next two weeks and plan to inform the dealer that I have a case number with Honda just in case they care anything about that.

Also, when I had the first dealer encounter I made sure that they contacted Honda Tech Support about the issue. They should do that on their own, but might not. I got a reference number for Tech Support which was shown on my dealer service report. This should allow continuity of information with Tech Support on the issue.

It's all about documenting the problem and creating a paper trail and not just allowing the dealer to brush you off. Down the road if there are service bulletins, recalls, class action suits, etc. you'll want to be able to substantiate the details of your situation.

Now I'm curious about the viscosity number. For 0W30, your viscosity is out of spec at 7 but would be in spec for 0-20. Does that mean that your viscosity is still OK referenced to 0-20 or it is not OK? It is still higher than my result at 6.9. I'm finding out a lot more about engine oil and engine dynamics than I ever wanted to know. It's sort of ridiculous that you have to get so far down into the weeds owning a new vehicle these days.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by ediekrager » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:53 pm

Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but Motor Trend is doing one of their “long-term” tests on a 2018 CRV with the 1.5. This is where they drive it for 30k or so and take it in anonymously for service visits. I don’t know if there is a way to comment on their periodic updates (published on their website) or to send them an email. But those reviews get a manufacturer’s attention. And if someone could point MT in the direct of the oil gas dilution complaints, it may get addressed in one of their updates.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by JPH » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:35 pm

CULater wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:06 am
Now I'm curious about the viscosity number. For 0W30, your viscosity is out of spec at 7 but would be in spec for 0-20. Does that mean that your viscosity is still OK referenced to 0-20 or it is not OK? It is still higher than my result at 6.9. I'm finding out a lot more about engine oil and engine dynamics than I ever wanted to know. It's sort of ridiculous that you have to get so far down into the weeds owning a new vehicle these days.
That's a good question. I took my CR-V to the Honda dealer; I've been using a private mechanic up to now. I asked the service manager if I should continue using 0W30 oil to preserve viscosity as the oil is diluted. He would only say that Honda does not recommend it and only offered to use 0W20. I had them change the oil, which I paid for.

Their general attitude was very sympathetic and they showed a desire to help. I believe that they sincerely had never heard of this before. They were flummoxed by the Blackstone report that I showed them. They made a copy of the report and made it a part of my file. They also took the case number that Honda assigned when I registered my complaint with them. They then spent two hours talking to Honda engineers and searching for service bulletins on the subject, but found nothing at all.

They urged me to continue documenting everything and asked to be informed if I ever hear from Honda. No hint of a solution. They took pains to set the oil level exactly at the full mark on the dipstick and asked me to return after driving 3000 miles so they can check the level. That's where I'm at.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:14 pm

JPH wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:35 pm
CULater wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:06 am
Now I'm curious about the viscosity number. For 0W30, your viscosity is out of spec at 7 but would be in spec for 0-20. Does that mean that your viscosity is still OK referenced to 0-20 or it is not OK? It is still higher than my result at 6.9. I'm finding out a lot more about engine oil and engine dynamics than I ever wanted to know. It's sort of ridiculous that you have to get so far down into the weeds owning a new vehicle these days.
That's a good question. I took my CR-V to the Honda dealer; I've been using a private mechanic up to now. I asked the service manager if I should continue using 0W30 oil to preserve viscosity as the oil is diluted. He would only say that Honda does not recommend it and only offered to use 0W20. I had them change the oil, which I paid for.

Their general attitude was very sympathetic and they showed a desire to help. I believe that they sincerely had never heard of this before. They were flummoxed by the Blackstone report that I showed them. They made a copy of the report and made it a part of my file. They also took the case number that Honda assigned when I registered my complaint with them. They then spent two hours talking to Honda engineers and searching for service bulletins on the subject, but found nothing at all.

They urged me to continue documenting everything and asked to be informed if I ever hear from Honda. No hint of a solution. They took pains to set the oil level exactly at the full mark on the dipstick and asked me to return after driving 3000 miles so they can check the level. That's where I'm at.
Thanks so much for your report. Similar to my experience back in March. I was hoping that by now the dealerships had some knowledge of the issue from customers and from consumer complaints. I'm rather astounded at how ignorant car dealer are about their product. All you have to do is google "CRV oil dilution" and there are dozens of websites with thousands of complaints and news items about this issue. There are 50 complaints filed at NHTSA alone. Do the car makers and dealers ever look at this stuff? Philistines.

I'll be taking mine into the dealer where I bought it in about 10 days when I get back there. I plan to take pictures of the oil level on the dipstick, the oil analysis report, my previous service reports, and a printout of the NHTSA complaints along with a few other websites. I'll report back on my experience, which I'm 100% sure will mirror yours and my previous experience. Seems like we're still a long way from this problem even being acknowledged, let alone any fix.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by TLC1957 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:15 am

TLC1957 wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:44 pm
Honda Canada just released this

http://www.hondanews.ca/en/news/release ... a-Vehicles


Statement Regarding Irregularly High Oil Levels in Certain Honda Vehicles




Honda has received some reports in Canada of irregularly high oil levels in certain Honda vehicles, which may be the result of extreme cold weather conditions. Honda is currently investigating the situation and developing a countermeasure. Honda is hopeful that vehicle enhancements will be released to address this condition in the next several months. At this time, Honda has no reason to believe that this potential issue affects the safe operation of a vehicle or results in any regulatory non-compliance. We encourage customers with concerns about their vehicle to visit their nearest Honda dealer to have their vehicle inspected. The vehicle’s warranty will apply to any related service or repairs.
CULater when you visit your dealer along with the rest of the stuff you plan to take why not print this from Honda Canada and see what they say. I can not believe that Honda USA and Canada do not talk to each other on the technical side of things.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:25 am

TLC1957 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:15 am
TLC1957 wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:44 pm
Honda Canada just released this

http://www.hondanews.ca/en/news/release ... a-Vehicles


Statement Regarding Irregularly High Oil Levels in Certain Honda Vehicles




Honda has received some reports in Canada of irregularly high oil levels in certain Honda vehicles, which may be the result of extreme cold weather conditions. Honda is currently investigating the situation and developing a countermeasure. Honda is hopeful that vehicle enhancements will be released to address this condition in the next several months. At this time, Honda has no reason to believe that this potential issue affects the safe operation of a vehicle or results in any regulatory non-compliance. We encourage customers with concerns about their vehicle to visit their nearest Honda dealer to have their vehicle inspected. The vehicle’s warranty will apply to any related service or repairs.
CULater when you visit your dealer along with the rest of the stuff you plan to take why not print this from Honda Canada and see what they say. I can not believe that Honda USA and Canada do not talk to each other on the technical side of things.
The only thing that bothers me about this statement from Honda Canada is that Honda is marginalizing this issue by attributing it to cold weather conditions, which they have also done attributing the recall of 350,000 CRVs and sales suspension to cold weather conditions in Northern China. I strongly dispute this argument, as attested by my own experience and that of many others who have posted their complaints on the web. I don't want to give these guys an excuse to discount the fact that they are producing a mis-engineered, defective engine.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:22 am

Sep 10, 2018 Report of Service Visit

Took CRV today to dealer where it was purchased. Presented my info about the high oil level - fuel dilution problem, including photo of overage on oil dipstick, oil analysis report from Oil Analyzers, previous service reports. Service tech was basically uninterested in my documentation and did not seem surprised by the issue. When I asked if they knew about the problem the answer was evasive.

All that was done was to change oil and filter, and I was charged for it. I was in and out in an hour. The matter was not discussed with me and it was treated as a standard oil/filter change service. Service report states that oil dilution is a known issue by Honda and no remedy is available. Specific wording on service report is:
"Notified DPSM of issue and it is a known current issue no current remedy is available"
The service report stated that the problem I presented was "fuel smell in oil." I made them include that the problem was high oil level and oil analysis report showing severe fuel dilution. When I asked if I should take any precautions as the owner, I was told there was nothing to recommend.

Dealers are still basically still stonewalling the problem. There is no fix. IMO, there is no fix forthcoming either or it would have forthcome by now. Please take my advice and don't buy a CRV unless you like Lemonade.
Last edited by CULater on Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by GammaPoint » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:25 am

CULater wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:22 am
Please take my advice and don't buy a CRV unless you like Lemonade.
I stumbled upon this thread a few weeks ago, and have been watching it since. My wife and I were extremely close to buying a 2018 CRV, but now we're probably going to hold off and instead take a look at the 2019 Toyota RAV4s. I'm sorry to hear about all the problems you and others have had with this, but I'm very appreciative of all the information you have provided regarding it.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:09 pm

Interesting comment from another Honda service tech that I forgot to include above. He said he was filling in for the regular Honda tech and was actually a Hyundai service tech who worked at the sister Hyundai dealership right next door - part of the same auto dealer complex. I asked him if he had heard of the oil dilution problem with Hondas. He said that, yes he had heard bits and pieces about it over at the Hyundai dealership, and then went on to say "we haven't had that with the Hyundais so far -- and I hope it stays that way," giving me a smile of relief (Hyundais also have direct fuel injection, turbo-4 engines). Indicating to me, they are all aware of the growing issue with Hondas and are glad they aren't having to deal with it.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:17 pm

Cars on my radar now: 2019 RAV4, 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe w/non-turbo engine
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by JPH » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:27 pm

I received an email today from Honda generated by the complaint that I filed. They sent me their "sincere apologies for the inconvenience." They asked if I have daken the car to a Honda dealer for inspection, when, and where.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 pm

Here's mine. I got sincere apologies too. I guess that's about all we'll get from Honda. c'est la vie.
Thank you for allowing us the opportunity of responding to your message. On behalf of American Honda Motor Co., Inc., we offer our sincere apologies for the circumstances which prompted you to reach us. We assure you of our interest in your feedback and we thank you for bringing your concern to our attention.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by andypanda » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:42 am

That's sad. The least they could do would be to add a little humor to their empty messages... :D

Dear Honda customer, "All Your Base Are Belong to Us"

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by MangoMama » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:58 am

I actually test drove a 2018 CRV 1.5T last year prior to seeing this thread. Thankfully I went with an Outback. Interested in a simple highway commuter car (60mi per day) and the new Insight looks to have potential.

But I'm curious if the 1.5 non-turbo engine is effected as well?

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by GammaPoint » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:11 am

MangoMama wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:58 am
But I'm curious if the 1.5 non-turbo engine is effected as well?
At first I read that the non-Turbo wasn't affected, but then more recently I've seen people saying it is affected but just to a lesser degree. Though I'm not an expert in it since am like you and almost bought a CRV and don't actually own one.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by MangoMama » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:15 am

GammaPoint wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:11 am
MangoMama wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:58 am
But I'm curious if the 1.5 non-turbo engine is effected as well?
At first I read that the non-Turbo wasn't affected, but then more recently I've seen people saying it is affected but just to a lesser degree. Though I'm not an expert in it since am like you and almost bought a CRV and don't actually own one.
That would be disappointing. Maybe it'll have to be a Pruis a that point. Thank you!

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:46 am

There's a pending class action lawsuit on the Earthdreams engines for the oil fuel dilution problem. I think that would include the non-turbo as well. Direct Injection engines by Honda might be the culprit and a turbo could exacerbate the problem.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Will 82 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 pm

I'm debating what to do with mine. I have a 2017 EX, approaching 20k miles. Purchased originally b/c I was commuting 85 miles round trip a day and I liked the gas mileage and safety features. Obviously not worried about reliability issues with it being a Honda. So much for that. Had a Tacoma for 9.5 years before that and never had an issue.

My commute is now about 60 miles, which soon will be be only 3 days a week (hopefully within 3-4 months). Looking at CarMax prices, resale is still very good. I'm debating whether to take mine to CarMax to see what they'd offer. I know my mileage is a little on the higher side since (only had it 13 months), so that would affect the offer a bit. Debating whether or not it's a good idea to get rid of it and replacing it with something 2-3 years old for under $20k.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by bob60014 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:09 pm

Those that have a issue, have you written to the guy at the top?

Chief Executive
Toshiaki Mikoshiba
President and CEO of Honda North America (HNA) and American Honda Motor Co. (AHM)
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
(310) 783-3000
Toshiaki_Mikoshiba@ahm.honda.com

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:15 pm

Will 82 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 pm
I'm debating what to do with mine. I have a 2017 EX, approaching 20k miles. Purchased originally b/c I was commuting 85 miles round trip a day and I liked the gas mileage and safety features. Obviously not worried about reliability issues with it being a Honda. So much for that. Had a Tacoma for 9.5 years before that and never had an issue.

My commute is now about 60 miles, which soon will be be only 3 days a week (hopefully within 3-4 months). Looking at CarMax prices, resale is still very good. I'm debating whether to take mine to CarMax to see what they'd offer. I know my mileage is a little on the higher side since (only had it 13 months), so that would affect the offer a bit. Debating whether or not it's a good idea to get rid of it and replacing it with something 2-3 years old for under $20k.
Same question here. In China where the problem has been more notorious and publicized than here, I've read that resale values for the CRV have taken a hit. I figure that could happen here so I'm worried about mine. They still seem to be selling like hotcakes though, so don't know. If you take yours to CarMax I'd be interested in what % they offer you. If it seems pretty good, I might want to sell mine sooner rather than taking the chance of getting a worse offer in a few months than normal from the fallout on this problem.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:53 pm

CULater wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:15 pm
Will 82 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 pm
I'm debating what to do with mine. I have a 2017 EX, approaching 20k miles. Purchased originally b/c I was commuting 85 miles round trip a day and I liked the gas mileage and safety features. Obviously not worried about reliability issues with it being a Honda. So much for that. Had a Tacoma for 9.5 years before that and never had an issue.

My commute is now about 60 miles, which soon will be be only 3 days a week (hopefully within 3-4 months). Looking at CarMax prices, resale is still very good. I'm debating whether to take mine to CarMax to see what they'd offer. I know my mileage is a little on the higher side since (only had it 13 months), so that would affect the offer a bit. Debating whether or not it's a good idea to get rid of it and replacing it with something 2-3 years old for under $20k.
Same question here. In China where the problem has been more notorious and publicized than here, I've read that resale values for the CRV have taken a hit. I figure that could happen here so I'm worried about mine. They still seem to be selling like hotcakes though, so don't know. If you take yours to CarMax I'd be interested in what % they offer you. If it seems pretty good, I might want to sell mine sooner rather than taking the chance of getting a worse offer in a few months than normal from the fallout on this problem.
IMO - You have done everything you can to remedy a situatioin that is really crappy. Something that Honda should have stepped up and resolved way before now.
I believe I am like you and while the problem can be dealt with I would not want to have that powertrain in my car , just not comfortable.
So I would do what you are considering , sell to Carmax even at somewhat of a loss to be done with it and move on. No matter what Honda does they cannot make up for your time and anguish , best to be done with it.
Good luck and tank you for notifying others of a potential big issue.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Will 82 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 pm
I'm debating what to do with mine. I have a 2017 EX, approaching 20k miles. Purchased originally b/c I was commuting 85 miles round trip a day and I liked the gas mileage and safety features. Obviously not worried about reliability issues with it being a Honda. So much for that. Had a Tacoma for 9.5 years before that and never had an issue.

My commute is now about 60 miles, which soon will be be only 3 days a week (hopefully within 3-4 months). Looking at CarMax prices, resale is still very good. I'm debating whether to take mine to CarMax to see what they'd offer. I know my mileage is a little on the higher side since (only had it 13 months), so that would affect the offer a bit. Debating whether or not it's a good idea to get rid of it and replacing it with something 2-3 years old for under $20k.
Another idea maybe - at Carmax look at the trade value for an earlier CRV with very low mileage. We have two of them (CRV) with the 2.2 non turbo and they are a really nice car.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by comehither2k18 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:09 pm

Hope to to quick honest opinion from those following closely. Just signed today on a 2018 crv lx with 2.4 engine, to take delivery on Saturday. Went with LX cause I wanted nothing to do with the 1.5T and the major problem. We are in a cold climate Buffalo.. I keep cars for atleast 7 years so reliability is huge for me.
Is the 2.4 engine having problems too?? Getting really nervous cause I thought I just read there were reports of it happening with the 2.4 too.
We really need to do something soon and liked the crv way better than rav4...but Im second guessing this purchase.... Spending alot of money, last thing I want to worry about is getting oil changed once a month.
Bottom line... Should we bail out of this deal???Didnt put anything down and we are taking care of financing ourselves so not paying til Saturday...
Help us decide please.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:33 pm

If a purchase is hanging in the balance here, don't take any chances and go ask the experts: Honda CR-V Owners Club Forums
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by comehither2k18 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:27 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:33 pm
If a purchase is hanging in the balance here, don't take any chances and go ask the experts: Honda CR-V Owners Club Forums
Thanks, I just posted there too. Its looks like the main discussion on the issue was closed by the moderators. I find that kinda suspicious.. Not feeling too good about going through with the purchase right now... What sucks is we really like it.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:31 pm

It has been reported for the 2.4 engine as well, as here (scroll down to #13):

https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/11 ... ase-2.html

I have no experience or first-hand knowledge of oil dilution problems with this engine. Far less has appeared than for the 1.5T engine. It does have direct fuel injection, which most other small 4-cyl engines also have these days, and my oil analysis report stated that "High fuel dilution can be common in direct injected engines." The extent of this problem varies across models and manufacturers. If I had to guess, based on the sketchy information I've seen, I'd say the 2.4 might well have the problem but it is likely to be less severe than in the 1.5T engine which uses turbocharging. My understanding is that the engine in the RAV4 uses both port and direct injection, relying on port injection for normal driving. Port injection is not known to have a serious fuel dilution problem and it also keeps the valves from carboning up, which can be another problem with direct injection. Me -- I'd buy the Toyota and avoid both direct injection and turbo. The 2019 is due out in November - December and it looks every bit as good as the CRV on paper.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by comehither2k18 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:47 pm

CULater wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:31 pm
It has been reported for the 2.4 engine as well, as here (scroll down to #13):

https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/11 ... ase-2.html

I have no experience or first-hand knowledge of oil dilution problems with this engine. Far less has appeared than for the 1.5T engine. It does have direct fuel injection, which most other small 4-cyl engines also have these days, and my oil analysis report stated that "High fuel dilution can be common in direct injected engines." The extent of this problem varies across models and manufacturers. If I had to guess, based on the sketchy information I've seen, I'd say the 2.4 might well have the problem but it is likely to be less severe than in the 1.5T engine which uses turbocharging. My understanding is that the engine in the RAV4 uses both port and direct injection, relying on port injection for normal driving. Port injection is not known to have a serious fuel dilution problem and it also keeps the valves from carboning up, which can be another problem with direct injection. Me -- I'd buy the Toyota and avoid both direct injection and turbo. The 2019 is due out in November - December and it looks every bit as good as the CRV on paper.
Thank you for pointing that out. Ultimately its wife's car and her decision, but Im leaning towards backing out and revisiting the Rav4 again.

the last thing I want to worry about is having to check oil level at every gas fillup or alter the way we drive. When you buy a new car, you should have peace of mind for 3 years... Only way I would have that, would be if I leased. We don't care about driving something new every 3 years and keep our cars a minimum of 6 to 7 years which seems to make the most sense financially in the long run. And with this problem coming out, I have a feeling that its going impact resale values down the road.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:06 pm

I should add that fuel oil-dilution does not seem to be an issue in and of itself. I've run across several discussions, such as this YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=nMX94zarLs4 which point out that it is a common thing with many engines these days, it is a known issue, and engines and engine oil are designed to handle it within reasonable parameters. Searching for engines that don't have some degree of fuel dilution may be misguided. The 2.4 honda engine may manifest fuel dilution within acceptable parameters -- I don't know. I do know that the magnitude of fuel dilution in the 1.5T engine seems well out of bounds. We hear reports of having 1 quart or more of fuel in a crankcase with a 3.7 qt capacity. For some reason, this engine isn't able to manage what might be expected amounts of fuel getting into the crankcase. Many engines typically can burn off some of the fuel, but the 1.5T is allowing it to continually accumulate.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Will 82 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:38 am

I scheduled an appointment at CarMax tomorrow afternoon, so I will report back here on the offer.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:50 am

Will 82 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:38 am
I scheduled an appointment at CarMax tomorrow afternoon, so I will report back here on the offer.
Looking forward to hearing that. I was at the Honda dealership today and noticed at least 3 nice new-looking 2017 CRVs among their used cars. Given that it's less than 2 years since the 17s came out, they couldn't be lease vehicles. I dunno, maybe that's typical but I was wondering. At least if I sell mine this soon, I won't be the only one.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

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