New Job (1st Management Role)

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RegDunlopCPA
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New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by RegDunlopCPA » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:40 am

Hi all,

I know this isn't technically the forum, but it could/would impact my finances so i'm hoping for some advice.

I've recently been approached by a director in my company (large successful fortune 500 energy company) who said my "name quickly came to mind" to replace a recently vacated Manager position reporting to him.
Currently I am in the same alphabetical pay grade as this potential management position (which would have 4-5 direct reports). However, I currently have ZERO direct reports and I do not have the Manager title. I am a well-paid individual contributor which affords me much schedule flexibility and autonomy to pursue a variety of projects. I also don’t have to follow the monthly/quarterly accounting close schedule so no late nights or weekends for me. I am paid like a manager, but without the title and direct reports.

I’m not sure I want this job as it would follow the accounting cycle. I have concerns as a new parent and with the addition of more children in the future (my wife also works full-time) that this new role would force my work life balance to suffer. Conversely, I really do enjoy teaching and coaching others but the fear of failure in my first management role is what I’m struggling with. One frustrating caveat about the situation is that the internal HR procedure for a job grade-lateral move is to limit the salary increase to roughly 4%. There are no changes to vacation time or the annual bonus structure and since its middle management there are no equity compensation packages (which I understand but just wanted to clarify).

This salary bump only equates to about $5k. Not a whole lot of increased pay for potentially more hours/work, yet of course I would attain the Manager title. I’m not afraid of hard work but having spent time with a big-four accounting firm (albeit as a grunt), I have fears of feeling like I’m in that environment again as a Manager due to the longer hours and extra administrative work dealing with employee reviews, etc.

For some, ladder climbing and work title status is the end-all be-all in life. I am somewhat different in that I value flexibility, family time and work schedule predictability.

Please let me know your thoughts and whether or not I’m insane for not pursuing this opportunity.

PoppyA
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by PoppyA » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:03 pm

I turned Down promotions for quality of life 2 times in my career. Looking back, and not taking ego into account it was a no brainer. (Truthfully middle management is the WORST position IMHO)

I did/do have lingering doubts about “what might have been.” And those closest to me advised me to pursue the brass ring. I hated to let them down.

I remember points in my career where I chose time off over additional pay (overtime). To me that spoke volumes. I was comfortable with my life, was financial set, etc.

I guess my point is that people do it. I think it is a level of self awareness. Just like the people that remain at the entry level their entire career. I guess they kind of know what they want too though, I can’t even begin to understand no ambition.

I guess you should ask yourself where do you want to be at the end of your career, and work towards that.
“Your labor income makes you rich, not your investments.”

GmanJeff
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by GmanJeff » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:15 pm

You are not insane if your decision is consistent with your priorities, ambitions, and values.

One way to think about this might be to ask yourself where you'd like to be professionally in 1 year, in 5 years, and in 10 years, and whether this opportunity will improve your chances of achieving those goals. If your goal is pretty much to continue doing what you are doing now, doing it with the same employer for the same (maybe inflation-adjusted) compensation, then changing the nature of your role is not going to support that desire. If your goal is to acquire increased status, to have a greater impact, and receive materially more compensation, it likely will.

You understandably may want the advantages which might come with the new role, but not the less desirable features like longer working hours, so another question to potentially ask yourself is whether that's practically possible at your current employer, or perhaps at a different employer. It is typical for more prestigious, better compensated, and arguably more gratifying roles to necessarily be associated with some less desirable characteristics like more travel, job relocation, longer work hours, more job risk, or a generally higher pressure atmosphere. Only you can decide whether the potential advantages, on balance, outweigh the anticipated drawbacks.

Keep in mind that you're not necessarily making a permanent commitment. You may be able to accept the new role and later step back from it if it turns out not to be a good fit and you have not damaged your reputation by your performance in the position. Or, if things don't work out to your satisfaction, consider whether you'd be able to find a replacement job with another company if your present employer would not allow you to take a step backwards.

While it would be a mistake to sacrifice your family relationships or your own happiness for the sake of a small promotion, that can be a short-term view which fails to take into account the potential longer-term advantages (and drawbacks). It might also be helpful to imagine whether you'd like to eventually occupy a materially more senior role, where this initial step would be just the beginning of a longer journey. If you want (and realistically have the potential) to eventually be a Vice President, a Senior Vice President, an Executive Vice President or the CEO, for example, staying where you are will not get you there. Being very senior in a Fortune 500 company means status, prestige, and compensation beyond the imagination of most workers, and that has corresponding impacts on you and on your family, for better or for worse. In other words, take the long view, as well as looking at the likely near-term impacts of making the change.

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greg24
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by greg24 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:21 pm

I'm a similar case, well-paid individual contributor. I've turned down a couple management opportunities for similar reasons. I don't want to deal with management issues, work longer hours, sit in 30+ hours of meetings a week, etc.

If you want to manage people, I would go for it. If you prefer an individual contributor role and a better work-life balance, you may consider politely declining. This fork in the road may determine your future career path.

JBTX
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by JBTX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:31 pm

The issue is really the future. Is doing what you are doing in a fortune 500 company a viable long term career path? Do you see any 40 year-olds in the office doing the types of stuff you do? If you really want to advance in internal accounting in a large company you need management experience.

Also turning down a management position may have other repurcusions. I once turned down a manager position as a senior analyst, and later in a completely unrelated meeting the chief accounting officer brought it up. It was clearly viewed as a strike against me.

If you really don't want to manage people, you probably are looking at a very small company situation or certain types of consulting. With the consulting you may need to have the flexibility to travel.

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Cycle
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by Cycle » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:32 pm

I know the feeling. I quickly advanced to a senior individual contributor level at my megacorp, and wonder if I should go the people management path.

I earn director level pay at a small company as an engineer at a big company.

Going management path and making director in a few years would knock at most 2 years off my retirement target. I only work 40 hours a week, and will retire in 10 years at 45 with 4.4MM. I have zero interest to be working 70 hours a week like my boss, who is a director.

My wife is management path and will likely make director in a few years, surpassing my pay. It will have maybe 1 year (10%) impact on our FIRE date. She likes climbing the management ladder though, and is a "people person." She'll be leaving a lot of RSUs on the table if she decides to retire with me.

Just depends on what floats your boat.

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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by MJW » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:35 pm

RegDunlopCPA wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:40 am
I am paid like a manager, but without the title and direct reports.
First, nice work on being the person that came to mind whenever leadership was considering how to fill a managerial vacancy. That alone should be some good feedback on the job you are doing.

In regards to what I quoted above, that is a pretty good place to be if you like being an individual contributor with autonomy, flexible and no real accountability to anything other than your own results.

Unless your goal is to advance your career through management, the headaches (several of which you already seem aware) can make the gig feel pretty unrewarding. One thing I would NOT allow to influence my decision, however, is the fear of failure you mentioned. If you don't think the management role is right for you, there are plenty of valid reasons for it. But being afraid of it doesn't need to be one. Just be mindful about the trade-offs and the implications this could have for your long term career.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:16 pm

F500 but no RSUs for middle management?

Maybe you should find a new job.

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Watty
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by Watty » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:37 pm

RegDunlopCPA wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:40 am
Please let me know your thoughts and whether or not I’m insane for not pursuing this opportunity.
Not insane.

I was in a bit different situation since I worked in IT but the couple of times I did a bit of management I hated it. Frankly I was not that good at it either since I had more of a "techie" personality and did not have the right natural people skills to be in management.

I retired from an IT staff position a few years ago with no regrets. I earned a good living but not as much I might have in management but an upside was that even if I had gotten laid of in my 50's I would have been able to find some sort of other work, even if it was lower paying, since I had a skill set that would have been useful to someone. I have seen a lot of manager get laid off in their 50's(or even 40's) and many of them had a real hard time finding any other similar work.

One problem especially, in IT, is that if you do management for a few years you may have a hard time finding a staff position since your technical skills get stale. One thing to consider is how hard it would be in your field to find a staff roll in five years if you try management and it does not work out.

One thing to carefully consider though is that if you turn down this opportunity then the company may not offer you another management opportunity in the future.

neoptolemus412
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by neoptolemus412 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:59 pm

Ok, you're an accountant, so I think some of the advice from others is a little career limiting and not taking into account the realities of your profession. Most accountants need direct reporting experience for long-term, career advancement. Managers with 5 years of total work experience from Big 4 will have managed direct reports for years. This is why so many accounting positions are filled with people with Big 4 experience rather than internally.

If you didn’t make manager in your public experience and you’re being given that opportunity in the private sector to manage staff, you effectively are giving up a golden opportunity for long-term career opportunities. The highest paying accounting roles will require one to manage individuals and will request that experience. It is limiting one's internal and external career opportunities in most accounting roles to turn down managerial experience when offered b/c the technical parts of the job are quite easy to find talent for.

Brain
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by Brain » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:38 pm

What is the likelihood that if you took the management job and ended up not liking it, would be able to go back to your current position?

If you can do that, and you're interested in seeing if you really have management potential, this might be a nice opportunity to test it out.

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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by Nappyloxs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:30 pm

I am in a similar situation.

Pay: I essentially got a 20k bump since over 4 years. If I step down tomorrow I lose $700 but then get OT which means I can make plenty more. However, I have missed on a number of investment opportunities because of the hours and preoccupation with management.

Family: We have a one year old. I actually wanted to step down when he was born and wasn’t really allowed to. I could have but everyone asked me to stay. Work/life balance is totally different and really taking a toll. I don’t like working until 7-8:00 and kid goes to bed by 8:30, working weekends, etc.

Culture: my biggest problem lately is the rest of management. You will gain knowledge of issues you didn’t know exist and your opinions of your co-workers/managers can change. Meetings that should take 30 minutes go on for hours. Plus you will have to deal with personnel issues.

For $5k bump, you may lose a lot of family time. Management doesn’t necessarily end when you clock out either. However as others have said, you want to evaluate your long term career goals. In my case, management has little to do with my long term goals, which are a long shot anyways. I value the experience and love a lot of what I do. I also love coaching, teaching, mentoring, but it could be a small part of the job either because management doesn’t want too much time spent on it or because employees don’t really care for it.

I don’t want to sound pessimistic, especially since your company is much dofferent than mine. Management can be great if you have a great team and great management team, especially if you can move up even more. It is that 1st-2nd level management where you can put in more time than it is worth.

tmcc
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by tmcc » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:06 pm

If you would have 4-5 reports, there is no way the grading should be the same as an individual contributor role. I would challenge you to present that the HR grading is wrong. No less than 10% should be acceptable IMO. Does your company give RSUs at manager+? Depending on your total comp, maybe much more than 10%.

RegDunlopCPA
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by RegDunlopCPA » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:14 am

Nappyloxs wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:30 pm
I am in a similar situation.

Pay: I essentially got a 20k bump since over 4 years. If I step down tomorrow I lose $700 but then get OT which means I can make plenty more. However, I have missed on a number of investment opportunities because of the hours and preoccupation with management.

Family: We have a one year old. I actually wanted to step down when he was born and wasn’t really allowed to. I could have but everyone asked me to stay. Work/life balance is totally different and really taking a toll. I don’t like working until 7-8:00 and kid goes to bed by 8:30, working weekends, etc.

Culture: my biggest problem lately is the rest of management. You will gain knowledge of issues you didn’t know exist and your opinions of your co-workers/managers can change. Meetings that should take 30 minutes go on for hours. Plus you will have to deal with personnel issues.

For $5k bump, you may lose a lot of family time. Management doesn’t necessarily end when you clock out either. However as others have said, you want to evaluate your long term career goals. In my case, management has little to do with my long term goals, which are a long shot anyways. I value the experience and love a lot of what I do. I also love coaching, teaching, mentoring, but it could be a small part of the job either because management doesn’t want too much time spent on it or because employees don’t really care for it.

I don’t want to sound pessimistic, especially since your company is much dofferent than mine. Management can be great if you have a great team and great management team, especially if you can move up even more. It is that 1st-2nd level management where you can put in more time than it is worth.
Great points. Thank you for sharing. My buddy who made the leap to manager from the exact pay grade I'm in as well was the one who informed me of the HR policy. He just shared his regrets of making the move and says he misses his old position everyday (with no direct reports).

RegDunlopCPA
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by RegDunlopCPA » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:19 am

tmcc wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:06 pm
If you would have 4-5 reports, there is no way the grading should be the same as an individual contributor role. I would challenge you to present that the HR grading is wrong. No less than 10% should be acceptable IMO. Does your company give RSUs at manager+? Depending on your total comp, maybe much more than 10%.
I agree completely. It's a garbage policy IMHO. To be clear, there are 3 salary tiers of pay within the grade but still. Also, no RSUs at manager level. I'm leaning towards staying out where I'm at and expanding my skillset at this stage of my life with little ones. Perhaps down the road when kids are a bit older would the manager move make sense (assuming the pay bump is appropriate). That being said, if the policy never changes, I'm essentially in jail at my company/current role. :shock: Thanks for the comments.

RegDunlopCPA
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by RegDunlopCPA » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:26 am

neoptolemus412 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:59 pm
Ok, you're an accountant, so I think some of the advice from others is a little career limiting and not taking into account the realities of your profession. Most accountants need direct reporting experience for long-term, career advancement. Managers with 5 years of total work experience from Big 4 will have managed direct reports for years. This is why so many accounting positions are filled with people with Big 4 experience rather than internally.

If you didn’t make manager in your public experience and you’re being given that opportunity in the private sector to manage staff, you effectively are giving up a golden opportunity for long-term career opportunities. The highest paying accounting roles will require one to manage individuals and will request that experience. It is limiting one's internal and external career opportunities in most accounting roles to turn down managerial experience when offered b/c the technical parts of the job are quite easy to find talent for.
I am an licensed accountant by trade yes but I never managed anyone in public accounting. What I should have made it clearer above is that I presently work (4+ yrs) in corporate financial planning and analysis. So the road map is a little different in this area but my blend of experience is something not many folks have. So that bodes well for my mobility especially given that my name has come up for a manager role, albeit in accounting.

RegDunlopCPA
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by RegDunlopCPA » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:39 am

MJW wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:35 pm
RegDunlopCPA wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:40 am
I am paid like a manager, but without the title and direct reports.
First, nice work on being the person that came to mind whenever leadership was considering how to fill a managerial vacancy. That alone should be some good feedback on the job you are doing.

In regards to what I quoted above, that is a pretty good place to be if you like being an individual contributor with autonomy, flexible and no real accountability to anything other than your own results.

Unless your goal is to advance your career through management, the headaches (several of which you already seem aware) can make the gig feel pretty unrewarding. One thing I would NOT allow to influence my decision, however, is the fear of failure you mentioned. If you don't think the management role is right for you, there are plenty of valid reasons for it. But being afraid of it doesn't need to be one. Just be mindful about the trade-offs and the implications this could have for your long term career.
Thanks for the nice comments. My company has a lot of retirements on the horizon so the opportunities for mid 30s folks like myself are somewhat frequent. But of course nothing is a guarantee. I would just hate to get into a mgr role for the sake of the long term view and not really enjoy what I'm doing day to day.

From a long term perspective, I do think about working for other companies someday closer to home. If this silly HR policy persists, could taking a mgr role now translate into a much higher salary and benefits someday to an external employer? Possibly, but it would have to be the right timing so that I'm more willing to take on longer hours and some of management headaches (i.e. once my kids are older).

mak1277
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by mak1277 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:13 am

The other thing you need to ask yourself is how you will feel when you see people who aren't as good as you getting promoted past you (into this role and future promotions beyond that). Will you get annoyed and think "that should be me, I'm better than that guy/girl"...or will you say "sucker, I don't have to work as much as him/her"?

tmcc
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by tmcc » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:06 pm

If you can't negotiate higher, I would just take it and look for greener pastures at a new company in the director grade. 8-)

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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:57 pm

RegDunlopCPA wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:40 am
I know this isn't technically the forum, but it could/would impact my finances so i'm hoping for some advice.
Not a problem. This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) (career guidance).
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by Pacman » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:49 pm

For context, I am a previous big four cpa who has been a manager in both corporate accounting and fp&a at a megacorp. I actually think you are worried about the wrong thing. For a first management job, accounting is as straight-forward as you can get as you can always research or ask colleagues for help on technical matters you haven't been exposed to. Your main determinants of success will be probably attitude, proactiveness, & communication skills - assuming you can handle the detailed nature of the job. My main concern would honestly be going from interesting fp&a work to a boring accounting role, assuming you would be overseeing the accounting for a share service area or overlooking a team doing various journal entries (as opposed to sec reporting or technical accounting given your background).

Exterous
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by Exterous » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:08 pm

So different field (IT) but started from a similar work responsibility position. I had no direct reports and my projects were mine to direct, having near complete autonomy to complete as I saw fit because of my record of success. This meant a lot of flexibility in project selection and schedule and rarely needing to go over 40 hours a week

A manager position came up and I was 'encouraged to apply if I was interested'. After a very long debate I decided to take the position. This was 4 months ago so here are my thoughts on having taken it:

Cons:
-People need more hand holding than I realized. I know this sounds narcissistic but I have more appreciation for my value as a motivated and self directed employee. I need to provide direction I thought would have been obvious
-People like to escalate things\CC to Managers simply because of the title. Large increase in email to read
-People place more demands on your time. As a sole project owner my schedule was largely my own. Now its filled with giving people attention they either want or need. Sounds obvious but my calendar went from being an afterthought to running my life
-More red tape. As opposed to just dealing with the few road blocks I encountered I am now dealing with everyone's roadblocks. And, referring to my first point, some people need more help than I realized dealing with them
-You're more likely to have to be the bad guy.
-You might have to be the bad guy to people you had a good peer relationship with
-You may need to figure out how to deal with a lot more personality types in terms of motivation, growth and coaching.
-You find out unexpected things about your coworkers. When I took the position the person I thought would be the #1 troublemaker is actually #4 (partly because he actually takes direction far better than we all thought from the outside). The quiet guy who was soft spoken who I thought was the nicest on the team is actually my #1 troublemaker. (Not that they are overly troublesome)
-More work
-Potential for more distance from existing peers

Pros:
-Much Better growth opportunities
-Having more influence to guide the organization (highly dependent on organization)
-Better salary
-Better benefits
-Easier to break down barriers (Email signature carries more weight)
-Closer relationships with other "decision makers" both at work and after work.

So far the Pro list is shorter but some of those can be big difference makers depending on the organization. I do get a fair amount of power to influence direction so that is a big plus for me. I can push more things through that should be done and shut more things down that shouldn't be done than I ever could before. For my situation the more meetings is somewhat a pro as I can exert my influence when appropriate. But the team I lead is also a large cog in the machine. If I was in charge of a much smaller cog with less influence this might be a very different opinion.

The salary ceiling is far higher than my area of IT technical experience.

Also - when I took my position it was with a 13.5% raise and an increase in PTO from 12 vacation days + 10 sick days to 24 vacation days + 10 sick days with a re-evaluation in my performance in a year for another potential raise above the general yearly raises. If they won't budge on the 4% maybe see if they budge on vacation days (Assuming its the type of place where you could actually take the extra days). Knowing what I know now about my work in my organization I would not have taken the position offered to me for only a 4% raise. But after 4 months I don't regret it despite the con list (yet anyway).

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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by srt7 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:11 pm

RegDunlopCPA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:14 am
Nappyloxs wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:30 pm
I am in a similar situation.

Pay: I essentially got a 20k bump since over 4 years. If I step down tomorrow I lose $700 but then get OT which means I can make plenty more. However, I have missed on a number of investment opportunities because of the hours and preoccupation with management.

Family: We have a one year old. I actually wanted to step down when he was born and wasn’t really allowed to. I could have but everyone asked me to stay. Work/life balance is totally different and really taking a toll. I don’t like working until 7-8:00 and kid goes to bed by 8:30, working weekends, etc.

Culture: my biggest problem lately is the rest of management. You will gain knowledge of issues you didn’t know exist and your opinions of your co-workers/managers can change. Meetings that should take 30 minutes go on for hours. Plus you will have to deal with personnel issues.

For $5k bump, you may lose a lot of family time. Management doesn’t necessarily end when you clock out either. However as others have said, you want to evaluate your long term career goals. In my case, management has little to do with my long term goals, which are a long shot anyways. I value the experience and love a lot of what I do. I also love coaching, teaching, mentoring, but it could be a small part of the job either because management doesn’t want too much time spent on it or because employees don’t really care for it.

I don’t want to sound pessimistic, especially since your company is much dofferent than mine. Management can be great if you have a great team and great management team, especially if you can move up even more. It is that 1st-2nd level management where you can put in more time than it is worth.
Great points. Thank you for sharing. My buddy who made the leap to manager from the exact pay grade I'm in as well was the one who informed me of the HR policy. He just shared his regrets of making the move and says he misses his old position everyday (with no direct reports).
Is he effectively trying to get back in to an individual contributor role? If not then I don't think he's your buddy anymore. He is just discouraging you either to eliminate any future competition or just to be a step "above" you.

Honestly, if you have to ask if management is for you then you're not ready to be a manager.

No matter how you skin this cat, a management role is a career change. It is not lateral nor is it a "bump". You will need to get political. You will need to get influential. You will always need to watch your back. You will need to think both like a poker as well as a chess player ... at the same time. There will be ambiguity because now instead of numbers or machinery you are dealing with people. And they're unpredictable as heck. How do you think your peers (who didn't get asked to be a manager) would react? Like humans, of course! There will be jealousy etc. So watch out for that as well.

I don't want to sugar coat it for you. Any management role is messier than an IC role. But the first one seems the messiest. Although if you make it through all the mess ... you can call yourself a Manager and never look back :-)

BTW ... I call B.S. on your HR's policy of minimal (or nothing?) raise. Especially since they (company) approached you. Ask for more and if denied you can carry on being an IC. It's a great life!
I can't think of anything more luxurious than owning my time. - remomnyc

RegDunlopCPA
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by RegDunlopCPA » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:39 am

Pacman wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:49 pm
For context, I am a previous big four cpa who has been a manager in both corporate accounting and fp&a at a megacorp. I actually think you are worried about the wrong thing. For a first management job, accounting is as straight-forward as you can get as you can always research or ask colleagues for help on technical matters you haven't been exposed to. Your main determinants of success will be probably attitude, proactiveness, & communication skills - assuming you can handle the detailed nature of the job. My main concern would honestly be going from interesting fp&a work to a boring accounting role, assuming you would be overseeing the accounting for a share service area or overlooking a team doing various journal entries (as opposed to sec reporting or technical accounting given your background).
Your main concern is spot on. FP&A is interesting and exciting to me. Sorting out journal entries and accounting treatment, account reconciliations, etc. Been there done that.

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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by simas » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:00 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:16 pm
F500 but no RSUs for middle management?

Maybe you should find a new job.
since when is a front line supervisor (team lead essentially) a "middle management"? middle management is typically when you manage other managers but not yet an officer of the company or report to the officer of the company (regardless of title). front line, small team, is basically a 'lead' and rarely gets significant RSU if she/he gets any...

simas
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by simas » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:08 am

srt7 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:11 pm
Honestly, if you have to ask if management is for you then you're not ready to be a manager.

No matter how you skin this cat, a management role is a career change. It is not lateral nor is it a "bump".

BTW ... I call B.S. on your HR's policy of minimal (or nothing?) raise. Especially since they (company) approached you. Ask for more and if denied you can carry on being an IC. It's a great life!
this , all of this.
- do you want career change (forget the pay right now) ? if yes, go for it. if no , pass it.
- on the pay , do not forget that different grades top out at different levels. yes, you may be an individual contributor but your top pay is going to be less than management role even if you are paid the same now for some weird reason. also, your director/VP/whatever can pull various things including in-cycle (easiest) promotion, out of cycle (outside of normal annual reviews) promotion, and always can ask for and attach whatever money she/he requires. it cost your chain of command political capital so it is a question on whether they want to invest in you. if they want you, they will bump you or explain to you when they bump you. if they do not really want _you_ and just plugging the hole, you will hear stories of 'proving yourself' and other BS.
- HR has no say in this whatsoever , HRs job is to execute what your chain of command decides. HR can advice the management team of your unit but can not make any decisions and does not control any ranges. sufficient political capital (meaning person high enough in the chain of command) overrides any and all HR 'constraints' on things like comp.
- management could less, more, same amount of work, depending on how you structure it. there is zero in 'management' that requires for you to work more, do not fool yourself

So what do you want? and please stop talking about it with 'friends' - you are showing yourself as very naïve and inexperienced person there.

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LadyGeek
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:16 pm

I should add:

A first level manager is the hardest job in the company. Not only do you have to be sympathetic with your direct reports, but tow the company line from above. You are literally burning the candle at both ends.

The higher in management you go, the less you deal with actual work and become more of a people manager. Your success depends on managing the people below you.

An important point: If you turn down the offer, you will never be asked again.If you are seriously considering being a "company person" and want to test the waters at being a manager, take the offer.

I've worked with colleagues who have done both - engineer to manager, then back to engineer. They are successful in their career, as upper management has the confidence in their ability and can be trusted.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

tmcc
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by tmcc » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:12 pm

simas wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:08 am
- there is zero in 'management' that requires for you to work more, do not fool yourself
except when your people either screw up or even when something isn't actually screwed up but the rumor has made its way to the highest levels. then you have to explain the matter to a blue ribbon committee of politically connected talkers with a root cause analysis and how it will never happen again even though it never actually happened.

of course, you could argue that for each incremental, wasted hour of work there is one less hour of actual work being performed - in which case you're correct.

simas
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by simas » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:16 pm

tmcc wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:12 pm
simas wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:08 am
- there is zero in 'management' that requires for you to work more, do not fool yourself
except when your people either screw up or even when something isn't actually screwed up but the rumor has made its way to the highest levels. then you have to explain the matter to a blue ribbon committee of politically connected talkers with a root cause analysis and how it will never happen again even though it never actually happened.

of course, you could argue that for each incremental, wasted hour of work there is one less hour of actual work being performed - in which case you're correct.

and? this is part of your job - your have access to significantly more resources and therefore cover significantly more responsibility. some like it (management), some are terrified by it. up to you to decide what you want. on the flipside, you get to do so much more in both scope and depth, you learn to think, to communicate, to plan, to execute. if you are interested in making change, there is only so much you can do and so far you can go as individual contributor vs running a group of say 60.

simas
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by simas » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:17 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:16 pm

An important point: If you turn down the offer, you will never be asked again.If you are seriously considering being a "company person" and want to test the waters at being a manager, take the offer.
Plus many. LadyGeek is absolutely right here. if you pass, it is very unlikely you would be asked again on any other position.

neoptolemus412
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Re: New Job (1st Management Role)

Post by neoptolemus412 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:08 am

RegDunlopCPA wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:39 am
Pacman wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:49 pm
For context, I am a previous big four cpa who has been a manager in both corporate accounting and fp&a at a megacorp. I actually think you are worried about the wrong thing. For a first management job, accounting is as straight-forward as you can get as you can always research or ask colleagues for help on technical matters you haven't been exposed to. Your main determinants of success will be probably attitude, proactiveness, & communication skills - assuming you can handle the detailed nature of the job. My main concern would honestly be going from interesting fp&a work to a boring accounting role, assuming you would be overseeing the accounting for a share service area or overlooking a team doing various journal entries (as opposed to sec reporting or technical accounting given your background).
Your main concern is spot on. FP&A is interesting and exciting to me. Sorting out journal entries and accounting treatment, account reconciliations, etc. Been there done that.
I think this is the crux of the decision. FP&A is different work than corporate accounting. However, my experience is that risers in an organization always take the opportunity, take ownership, make it their own, and get rewarded. Right now, most businesses are going through good times. Bad times will come again. Those that pass up on promotions eventually get passed over or their lack of ambition is remembered when businesses go through those bad times. Also, if you look to leave and have to explain why you never managed, future employers rarely take a shot in accounting or finance on people. If you have concerns about work-life balance, I think they are unwarranted long-term as the higher up the food chain you go, the more control over your schedule. Especially, after learning how to properly delegate responsibility and manage your team. Lastly, don't presume 'the linear career path fallacy.' I see tons of people jump between FP&A, treasury, and corporate accounting in their careers to take on more responsibility.

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